Mention self pub in bio?

[NealM]

Context: I self-published (KDP) my first six novels. I never did any promoting or marketing outside of a Facebook post or two when they were first released. I probably sold about 25-50 copies of each, all to friends and family, almost none of whom left reviews. I'm going to get back into the query game with my newest novel (I successfully queried my second novel and landed an agent, but I ended up letting her go after a year and continued to self-publish), which leads me to:
Question: Do I mention the self-pubs in the bio? And if so, do I mention the fact that the low sales are because I never did any sort of marketing? They'll eventually find out anyway, right? So should I get in front of it, or should I let them find out on their own, then make excuses for why the sales are so low? Also, does any of this matter? I mean, if they like the latest manuscript, is my self pub history and sales (or lack thereof) a factor at all in whether or not they choose to rep this new book?

 

[TristenHannah]

Are the pubs in your real name or your pen name?

 

[CMBright]

A few data points I've learned lurking.

Don't lie about publications. Don't make excuses. Omission is not lying. Self publishing is a very different market from trade publishing.

 

[NealM]

Are the pubs in your real name or your pen name?

Real name.

 

[NealM]

A few data points I've learned lurking.

Don't lie about publications. Don't make excuses. Omission is not lying. Self publishing is a very different market from trade publishing.

So is this a vote for just don't mention them at all?

 

[TristenHannah]

Here is my educated guess. The self pubs do you more harm than good. At the best they suggest a lack of marketing nous.

Given that, what you have to market your current manuscript is your current manuscript. Don’t complicate that. Of course be honest if asked about your self pubs, but if your manuscript has the chance to win you a deal, don’t lead with your self pubs. Let those lie for now.

 

[CMBright]

So is this a vote for just don't mention them at all?

I'm not sure. I do have a publication under a different name that I don't mention because it is published under a different name in an obscure community college anthology. If it is easy to find your works, it might be better to mention you self published x, y and z rather than have an agent think you are hiding those works.

Eventually those familiar with trade publishing and how it intersects with self publishing will add their two cents.

 

[Woollybear]

For what it's worth, some agents have self published their work.

My guess is the salability of a novel rests more on the project than the author's history. I'd say mention it, but I can see better and worse ways to do this. "If I don't get an agent I'll self-pub like I did before" would be a bad way to say it, and "I've self published a series prior to this project, specifically for a handful of friends who were keen to read my manic ramblings" might be a little better. There are good ways to say it, but what those good ways are? Who knows. It shows you can see a project and series to completion.

If the agent you parted ways with is respected in the industry, that should off-set any concern that you are damaged goods, I think.

My guess. I'll certainly mention my SP climate fiction when I look for an agent for my historical project. The manuscript needs to be awesome, and if I can make that happen, I just can't see the other stuff being an issue.

Oh, last thing. Some of the query manager forms ask if you have self published and the sales numbers.

 

[Brigid Barry]

My understanding is that unless something sold really well as a self-pub, it's not worth mentioning, but I assume that means "by name" versus "I have previously self-published six novels."

 

[mccardey]

My guess is the salability of a novel rests more on the project than the author's history.

I wish this was true, but it isn't - at least not Down Here. My last novel got two immediate offers, and neither of them made it through whatever the publishing world calls due diligence because of the tremendously dire sales of my earlier novel - my then agent told me this would be something I'd have to learn to expect. Marketing makes the decisions.

Fair enough, I suppose - publishing is a business, after all.

 

[Woollybear]

I don't know that it's fair. If your most recent novel was actually better than the previous one, there could be collateral advantage. Not to mention any failure in marketing.

Agreed that there's a capitalistic angle that has nothing to do with projects per se.

I feel like it is an agent's job to understand the nastier side of publishing. And if they don't want to muck around in all the reasons a person might self-publish, then I don't really think they're the right agent for me. Because there are a thousand reasons to self publish. And with AI books poised to flood the market, SP is hardly the worst thing anyway. In many ways, it's one of the better things about the whole industry. Some agents would likely agree, as they have self-published themselves.

 

[lizmonster]

I feel like it is an agent's job to understand the nastier side of publishing.

That’s true. But they also don’t have much control over it.

I suspect the effects of a history of self-pub depend on the market, and on the genre.

And if they don't want to muck around in all the reasons a person might self-publish, then I don't really think they're the right agent for me.

It’s not so much what the agent thinks, but what the editors they know can work with. An editor who loves a book can only advocate for it; they don’t make the final decision.

I don’t know why my last book didn’t sell, but I do know my sales history was a negative.

 

[mccardey]

I feel like it is an agent's job to understand the nastier side of publishing. And if they don't want to muck around in all the reasons a person might self-publish, then I don't really think they're the right agent for me. Because there are a thousand reasons to self publish. And with AI books poised to flood the market, SP is hardly the worst thing anyway. In many ways, it's one of the better things about the whole industry. Some agents would likely agree, as they have self-published themselves.

To be fair, I think SP is brilliant and I have literally shelves of SP work - mostly histories and memoirs - that I adore.

I have neither the skill-set nor the desire to be read that it would require, though. Or the work ethic. I'm an old lady who keeps chickens and I'm perfectly happy with that - and I write stuff on the side

That's not quite right. I write stuff because I've always written stuff. I like the writing part and I also love the editing part. Hate the business part, but do love editors.

 

[Woollybear]

I remain with my original answer. Yes, mention it. As fleetingly as you like.

But I'm happy with self publishing.

 

[Woollybear]

It’s not so much what the agent thinks, but what the editors they know can work with. An editor who loves a book can only advocate for it; they don’t make the final decision.

This is a tangent to what I said. If an agent has an axe to grind against self publishing, then they are not for me. Nothing to do with acquisitions. When I seek an agent, it'll be one who is savvy to SP. I'm happy to weed the other folks out with my history, because we would be a bad match and there is NO reason to work with a bad match.

I don’t know why my last book didn’t sell

Marketing.

My uninformed guess is a handful of your trilogy are moving because of your investment in Arkhangelsk.

 

[lizmonster]

I remain with my original answer. Yes, mention it. As fleetingly as you like.

But I'm happy with self publishing.

To be clear, me too!

But if I’d sold only a handful of copies…I think you have to mention them, because any agent who’s interested will google you and find them anyway. I like some of your phrasing on that. Yes, an agent should understand if a book gets no promotion it’s not going to move, regardless of quality, and they’ll want to know ahead of time so they can integrate that into their pitch strategy.

They may ask if you’re willing to take them down, though (if they’ve really only sold a few dozen copies).

 

[NealM]

Thanks for the responses. Here's a new spin on the original question: Would there be any advantage to querying this new MS under a pen name? It's not part of a series or anything, and it's a completely different genre from my self pub stuff. I'm not particularly attached to my name or trying to start any sort of "brand," so I have no objections to using a pen name. That would eliminate the problem entirely. Or maybe there's not really a problem at all and I'm overthinking all this.

 

[NealM]

I have neither the skill-set nor the desire to be read that it would require, though. Or the work ethic. I'm an old lady who keeps chickens and I'm perfectly happy with that - and I write stuff on the side

That's not quite right. I write stuff because I've always written stuff. I like the writing part and I also love the editing part. Hate the business part, but do love editors.

Yes yes yes yes yes. This is me, mostly. I write a novel or so a year. I absolutely love the entire process (especially editing!) until it comes to the business stuff, then all the fun gets sucked out of it. I self-pub, let my friends know, and start the next one. Writing books is just what I do. I even had an agent once and I let her go because she encouraged me not to write the new MS I was working on because it was in a different genre from the one that was on sub. She said it was a bad move to go off-brand. I'm sure she was right; she was just doing her job well, but I still let her go because I felt icky. This new MS, however, I personally think is quite good and--perhaps more importantly--highly marketable, so I'm gonna hold my nose and take another crack at the trad-pub biz. I may have an allergy to business and marketing, but, maybe. I don't know, selling a few copies of something I spent a year would be nice at some point...

 

[Brigid Barry]

Thanks for the responses. Here's a new spin on the original question: Would there be any advantage to querying this new MS under a pen name? It's not part of a series or anything, and it's a completely different genre from my self pub stuff. I'm not particularly attached to my name or trying to start any sort of "brand," so I have no objections to using a pen name. That would eliminate the problem entirely. Or maybe there's not really a problem at all and I'm overthinking all this.

Be honest about the SP because if you submit under a pen name and then they search your real name and find the SP stuff there's bound to be some negative feelings about it. Especially since they wouldn't find your real name until The Call.

I'll publish () under a pen name but that's for whatever small measure of privacy that might provide. A friend used different pen names when she switched genres. I don't know if switching names means you get to call yourself debut or not, which supposedly has some value.

 

[lizmonster]

Thanks for the responses. Here's a new spin on the original question: Would there be any advantage to querying this new MS under a pen name? It's not part of a series or anything, and it's a completely different genre from my self pub stuff. I'm not particularly attached to my name or trying to start any sort of "brand," so I have no objections to using a pen name. That would eliminate the problem entirely. Or maybe there's not really a problem at all and I'm overthinking all this.

You’re going to have to use your real name to sign contracts, so I don’t think this is the way to go. You can certainly let an agent know you’d be open to using a pen name, though; they should have some idea if that would be useful in your situation or not.

 

[Aeryn_Rudel]

I don't think have to mention it in the bio if you don't want. I certainly don't mention everything I've published in my bio. That said, some agents will point-blank ask you in their query forms if a) you've ever self-published, and b) if so, how many copies did you sell? As others have said, omission isn't lying, but if you're asked directly, that's a different story. Of course, you could just not query agents who ask for that info, as it's a small fraction of the total number of agents out there.

 

[goddessofgliese]

I don't think have to mention it in the bio if you don't want. I certainly don't mention everything I've published in my bio. That said, some agents will point-blank ask you in their query forms if a) you've ever self-published, and b) if so, how many copies did you sell? As others have said, omission isn't lying, but if you're asked directly, that's a different story. Of course, you could just not query agents who ask for that info, as it's a small fraction of the total number of agents out there.

I agree with Aeryn here.

 

[stevenmnedeau]

I have never had an agent though I wish to enter the world of trade publishing eventually. I have SP in multiple genres. I've made some sales and even had one book show up on the shelves of B&N (though they didn't pick it up again after it sold out). Most sales happen in-person at the fairs I attend as an author/vendor. This means that an agent will have no real idea about how many I've sold (I still keep records, if they ask). Here is my take, however useless as it may be. I am not ashamed of my self-published work, and I never will be. It may be held against me by agents I query, but I mention it every time.

Maybe that's why I don't have an agent yet. I still have readers.
I say if you are proud of your work, never hide it.

 

[Donnettetxgirl]

I think authors that publish with a small press can actually have the same problem in regard to low sales numbers if the books they traditionally published did not sell a lot of copies. My first book, long ago, was horrible and it never should have been published. I left out the title of that book when I subbed to agents. Although it's, unfortunately, connected to my name and easy enough to locate. I did mention my other small press books though.

I know many people believe agents only go with authors who have a track record of decent sales already. To some degree that may be true. But I think it honestly comes down to a killer book and a killer query. I think that's really the secret weapon. If you have that, I don't think it matters so much which books you've self-published or otherwise that you mention or don't mention.

 

[lizmonster]

I know many people believe agents only go with authors who have a track record of decent sales already. To some degree that may be true.

This is often spun as "you need to have sales already to get an agent." That's not true at all.

Agents love unpublished writers. Publishers love unpublished writers. If you've published and not sold well - that's a different problem, but agents aren't going to auto-reject a good book for that. They know better than we do how mercurial the business can be.