Looking at options for publishing crime fiction

[wonderactivist]

There are several proven routes to success--and maybe to happiness as an m/t/s author. Reading frustrated posts from some of y'all, I wanted to share thoughts on why you might look beyond the agent/ big publisher model for crime fiction. What other options can you share? I also boosted the thread with Mark's story for the more traditional route. (linked at the bottom of this post) What do y'all think? Add more options as you see them.

Small publishers: Writers from Clancy to Coben started at small houses. James Sallus' Drive came from Poisoned Pen. Fact is, small presses will give you little or no advance but a bigger royalty. A small press choosing your book has less to do with market trends than whether the editor liked the book and whether it fits their niche. They take risks for good story. On the other hand, most have only limited distribution. Your book will not be on the shelves of most shops. For the most part, they don't care about your platform except about your willingness to work at building it. These are great places to buld a fan base, a platform. And maybe get that break.

*Note added7/15: These categories do not include vanity presses. Reputable small and mass-market publishers never ask you for money. They clarify royalty terms in contracts and send regular statements/checks.

Mass market PB-only publishing: People like Janet Evanovich and Hank Phillippi Ryan (current best mystery nominee for The Other Woman) started with Harlequin imprints. While most are very big companies with huge bookstore displays, I recently met a small publisher working in this market whose books sell only through a grocery store chain. Same concept. The readers automatically buy the monthly offering from the imprint. They are not all romance. Even though the readers are more attached to the imprint name in general, good writers do build platform here. Maybe someone knows more about this model and how it has adapted to e-publishing in the crime genre.

7/15: Large publishers' e-pub-only imprints, like Witness:Impulse from HarperCollins

Crowd funding, then the book: To use Kickstarter and other good crowd finding platforms, you need a GREAT book and a great VIDEO. You build interest through the video, the most interested become investors, and you publish to an already-established fan base. If your video was good enough, everyone who saw it will buy that book. Some Kickstarter projects have already made it to the best seller lists, mostly comics I believe.

Everything from

• the mystery magazine/literary journal route
• writing online to build fans.
• magazine articles (Argo,etc, came from articles)
• publishing a story in an anthology or winning a writing contest.

In our genre, another alternative route has been treaded by Alex Sokoloff and others: screenwriting first, then books

And I myself have utilized audio magazines, like Crime City Central. It's a smorgasbord out there.

Proactive self publishing. Keep in mind that James Oswald indie-pubbed his first crime novel, Natural Causes and its sequel. His sales blew away NY publishing. I don't know his secrets, but here are three stories from authors I know locally that illustrate the difference:

1) JM self-pubbed her first four books and actually recruited INVESTORS to fund small print runs. She mailed review copies, scheduled a few signings, but mostly worked at connecting with fans through social media. While she sold few copies of the first two, she did build a small but loyal fan base.

When she fell behind on her planned pub date for the third book in the series, she didn't want to disappoint the fans. She wrote a non-series book online, just for fun. She put it up free, a chapter at a time on her website--her fans shared it with friends.

That book became Beautiful Disaster. By no accident, it "happened" to be listed as an Amazon "Also Bought" for Fifty Shades. That's fans telling friends, the ONLY tried and true method for selling books. She hit the NY TIMES BEST SELLERS list as an indie, sold the movie rights, then got a big deal with Atria.

2) DM: this author, also from my town. started with a compilation of short horror stories, printed 500 copies and sold them locally. While selling them took two years, he visited every book con he could manage—and worked hard to create a magnificent, scary experience at his book-signing table. People loved the stories so he printed a second book, this time adding Kindle.

His fan base grew as he attended regional horror conferences. He wasn't using social media, just person-to-person contact, lots of fun at his signing table, and GREAT books. His third book came out recently and hit the top 100 on Kindle. For the first time, his income from writing for the month broke four figures. And his fans are begging for more. He has platform now and is on his way.

3) A friend whose name I won't mention. This author wrote a good book but grew frustrated when NY sent her a few rejections. She decided to self publish on Kindle without a lot of research. She printed up business cards and waited for the world to find it. Didn't have a website, FB or Twitter handle. Without a paper book, she couldn't do signings. She sold under a hundred copies to friends.


And of course, THE BIG FIVE: you can keep knocking on New York's door and may eventually get a bite. Mark Pryor of this list had huge success with an imprint of Prometheus, a leading publisher with Random House distribution (Big Six). Mark worked hard and paid his dues, but achieved the Dream.

His story is in a separate thread which I boosted to go with this one.​

My own choice was a small press after a NY agent told me she loved my book, but felt it wasn't likely to get a contract without a platform. While my sales are certainly smaller than Mark's, I met my goals and have my second book in the works. Brain surgery has slowed my progress on the wip lately, but I am very happy. I know Ken here has had some success with indie publishing.

Maybe everyone could share insights--whether they have published or not.

 

[BfloGal]

I answered a call for submission with a small press, and have no regrets. I can't say the sales of my little novella <--- were through the roof, but it was a great experience to go through all the steps toward publication--without the outlay of cash I'd need for professional editing and cover design. (They did all that.) Not knocking those who go the indie route. But I couldn't do it. Nor would I want to without a good professional edit. And that's going to cost at least a couple hundred dollars.

I really thought I was going to stay with the small presses until I got a call from an old query (inactive for a year) that led to agent representation, and then a sale to a larger press.

So keep submitting. It doesn't cost anything, and you never know. Unless of course, you don't want to change your manuscript. When you go with a traditional press, they use editors. And editors have a nasty habit of editing manuscripts. I say this because a woman at one of my local writing groups was aghast to know that my publisher asked for changes. Apparently her writing is perfect as it is. But as for me, I want a good edit.

 

[vagough]

Fabulous post, Lucie -- thank you so much! I'm going to bookmark it for future reference as I keep plugging away at the WIP draft (now at 60,000 words, so there's hope).

 

[lizmonster]

Nor would I want to without a good professional edit. And that's going to cost at least a couple hundred dollars.

For my 110K novel, I'm guessing it'll be about 10X that.

So keep submitting. It doesn't cost anything, and you never know.

This is true, although the psychic cost is...a lot different than I thought it would be. And I'm not at all sure it's worth it.

And yes, I'll self-pub if I can't find representation. But I won't do it without a professional edit. Don't assume that anyone considering self-publishing is doing it because they don't want to make changes to the manuscript.

 

[Introversion]

Unless of course, you don't want to change your manuscript. When you go with a traditional press, they use editors. And editors have a nasty habit of editing manuscripts. I say this because a woman at one of my local writing groups was aghast to know that my publisher asked for changes. Apparently her writing is perfect as it is. But as for me, I want a good edit.

Me too. I'm not sure you intended to imply it, but one could read from what you say that most people who self-publish do so out of fear of the work involved in the agenting process. Or out of a desire for COMPLETE AND TOTAL-PURE ARTISTIC CONTROL!

Of course, there's another reason that people self-publish: Because they couldn't get an agent interested in their work, or because they got tired of knocking on doors trying to find one that is.

If I can't get an agent interested in my WIP when it's ready to submit, I'll damn-sure self-pub the sumbitch. In that event, I may or may not pay for a professional edit. If I don't, it doesn't mean I wouldn't like it to have one, it just means I don't think I can afford one.

 

[wonderactivist]

That "don't edit me" vibe shows up in all types of publishing. And no, not by authors who have done their homework--except for my editor at Buzz. She's a great editor, but has published a couple of shorts and claims to be the most difficult, unyielding author EVER.

 

[gothicangel]

The only way I would even contemplate self-publishing is if agents where telling me that the book was really good, but they couldn't see a big enough market for it. If I did self-publish, I wouldn't go the Kindle Route either, I would for a company (like Matador) who provide services like editing and marketing, but with a strong track record of their authors being picked up by the trade.

Not sure what you mean by "true indie," small publishers are the true indies. If you are self-publishing, why be ashamed and hide behind linguistic word games.

Have you also considered submitting to competitions like the CWA?
http://www.thecwa.co.uk/daggers/2013/debut.html

 

[heyjude]

Mod Note:

This is not the right place to debate the labels "self-published" vs. "indie." Plenty of places around AW have addressed that one. Let me know if you need links.

Nor did I read BflGal as saying that all self-published authors are special snowflakes who don't want edited. She can clarify, of course, and I don't mean to speak for her, but I read it as some take that route to avoid editing (and I agree with her; some people have told me as much. However, a great many take the editing process seriously).

Back to the thread!

/Mod Note

 

[Namatu]

It's great to know what the various options are when you're pursuing publication. It's not just Big 6 or self-pub. The OP highlights the variety of options, which took no small amount of effort to compile, so thanks wonder!

 

[BfloGal]

Me too. I'm not sure you intended to imply it, but one could read from what you say that most people who self-publish do so out of fear of the work involved in the agenting process. Or out of a desire for COMPLETE AND TOTAL-PURE ARTISTIC CONTROL!

Of course, there's another reason that people self-publish: Because they couldn't get an agent interested in their work, or because they got tired of knocking on doors trying to find one that is.

I didn't mean to imply anything universal. Self-publishing is a growing and viable option for many. In some cases, it's not that the authors can't find an agent or a small press. I have met people who don't want their stories "meddled with" and I also know people who want a bigger piece of the pie--even if it means having a smaller pie.

We're all different and may have different goals and expectations for our writing. Now, for some, a professional edit doesn't make a difference. There are many readers out there who wouldn't notice mistakes. As a former English teacher, I know we all make mistakes all the time, and I want as few of them in my published prose as possible.

 

[Jamesaritchie]

I'm a firm believer in starting at the top and working your way down. The biggest mistake I see is probably the tens of thousands of writers who assume their first novel is worth publishing anywhere, or any way, commercial or indie.

They spends years trying to get it published, and sooner or later, usually sooner, go the indie route.

It's like think Rembrandt's first paint was good enough to sell, or even good enough to look at.

There are always exceptions, but most writers who succeed are those who write novel after novel after novel, and put each one in competition with the best writers out there. They don't act like a first effort is worth anything, and don't spend years rewriting, revising, and trying to find it a home without writing a second, a third, a fourth, and a fifth while the first one is looking for a home.

The simple fact is that maybe, on a really great day, one first novel in a hundred is remotely publishable, even as an indie book.

 

[wonderactivist]

Thanks, BFlo, and HJ, I will change the original post on indie. Didn't mean to be controversial. Plus I forgot another place, audio magazines like the one I'm reading on this Friday. duh?

 

[wonderactivist]

"Dolls" by Drake Vaughan, which I'm reading this Friday on Tales to Terrify, is a great example of a story better heard than read. We've all written pieces that need voice inflection. Another place for this sort of thing is the MOTH Radio Hour. (added a bit to the original but wanted to make an example)

 

[jeseymour]

When I first starting writing, about 16 years ago, I got an agent right off the bat for my first novel. (Big New york Agency.) I was thrilled. Until she gave up on me 6 months later after submitting to 15 publishers. She had no interest in my next book. I kept writing, and got an agent (smaller agency) for my second book. Again, no results and I dumped him after 6 months. Went to Bread Loaf, had my first short story published, really thought I was getting somewhere after four years of hard work. But... no offers from agents. Short stories were selling, but maybe one a year. Wrote the third book. Sent it out to 80 agents. All rejections. Started submitting to small presses and finally sold it. Still selling short stories, thrilled to have my first book out, except that it didn't sell. Publisher dropped me two years into my three year contract. I was thoroughly discouraged at this point. Got an offer from another small press a couple of months ago on the first book, and they are looking at re-releasing the third book. Still waiting to hear back. But still small press, still don't expect to ever make a living at this. Lost my "real" job and we are 6 months behind on our mortgage. I really thought this writing thing was what I wanted to do, and that it would be a good thing, that even if I didn't hit it big I could scratch out a living. But it's not going to happen. I have no interest in self publishing. I do still sell the occasional short story. I really thought I was the poster child for perseverance, but it hasn't really worked out.

 

[wonderactivist]

I really thought this writing thing was what I wanted to do, and that it would be a good thing, that even if I didn't hit it big I could scratch out a living. But it's not going to happen. I have no interest in self publishing. I do still sell the occasional short story. I really thought I was the poster child for perseverance, but it hasn't really worked out.

Dear jeseymour, I am so sorry to hear your frustration--and I don't think you should feel alone. The industry is in flux right now and nobody from the chairman of Simon and Schuster to the reader deciding between Kindle and Nook knows where it is headed. sometimes when I think about it I feel down.

I made a deal with myself before I signed with Buzz, a very small indie publisher. I told myself that my writing is my art. I can do it on the side, keep pursuing my dreams, but like an artist or actress, never quit my day job. The author in my first example above was finally able to do so after two bestsellers and a movie deal, but even she stays in touch with her old job. The book market is fickle.

That's sort if what this thread is about to me. How will I define my career and my measures of success? It'll be different for all of us.

And thanks for sharing your experience. Too often, we only get to hear the bright, shiny publishing stories.

 

[lizmonster]

But still small press, still don't expect to ever make a living at this. Lost my "real" job and we are 6 months behind on our mortgage. I really thought this writing thing was what I wanted to do, and that it would be a good thing, that even if I didn't hit it big I could scratch out a living. But it's not going to happen. I have no interest in self publishing. I do still sell the occasional short story. I really thought I was the poster child for perseverance, but it hasn't really worked out.

I'm sorry to hear it's been so hard. Not that it's helpful - but stats I dug up about a year ago suggested about 5% of writers were able to support themselves from writing only. I expect it's hard to look at it this way, but you are doing pretty well in the author scheme of things. It would be nice if it were easier to get more traction - and I'm sorry it's been so frustrating. From the outside, though, your perseverence really is impressive.

I made a deal with myself before I signed with Buzz, a very small indie publisher. I told myself that my writing is my art. I can do it on the side, keep pursuing my dreams, but like an artist or actress, never quit my day job.

This is where I am trying to get philosophically. I will write the best book I can, I will publish (one way or another), and then I'll write another one. In many ways writing is about the most narcissistic thing a person can do - if someone else likes it, that's kind of a bonus.

Or so I try to convince myself.

Speaking of alternatives - does anyone have any experience with Wattpad? Last I checked it seemed (on the surface, at least) somewhat dominated by YA, but it's an interesting idea, and possibly a way to start building an audience.

 

[wonderactivist]

Liz, I don't know about Wattpad, but On the 5% number for writers supporting themselves: a Texas church friend has

been pubbed many, many times by a Big NY publishing house. She writes kids books. About 5 years ago, she told me that out of all her 12 plus books, she made an average of $5000 a year. The next year she won the Newberry and now does better, but still ... she has been doing this for a long, long time.

I love writing and am in this for the long haul. That's why after getting that positive-blunt feedback from an agent, I decided to go with the small press to start. Buzz is totally regional but has a loyal fan base. When I get the sales reports, my numbers are in the hundreds not the thousands, but on the other hand, fans write me and I know they were touched by something I wrote. Isn't that what writing is about?

I'm having fun with all this. I'm writing for a regional art magazine, doing some freelancing and writing my sequel. Still enjoying it. That can only lead to good things.

 

[Namatu]

I really thought I was the poster child for perseverance, but it hasn't really worked out.

I'm sorry you're having hard times, jeseymour, and that publishing hasn't worked out the way you'd hoped. It can be such a fickle industry, and the economy now has made things even more challenging (in my opinion). I hope things improve for you.

I'm having fun with all this. I'm writing for a regional art magazine, doing some freelancing and writing my sequel. Still enjoying it. That can only lead to good things.

That, for me, is key.

 

[lizmonster]

Liz, I don't know about Wattpad, but On the 5% number for writers supporting themselves: a Texas church friend has

been pubbed many, many times by a Big NY publishing house. She writes kids books. About 5 years ago, she told me that out of all her 12 plus books, she made an average of $5000 a year. The next year she won the Newberry and now does better, but still ... she has been doing this for a long, long time.

My aunt and uncle wrote some children's books about 20-25 years ago. They won some awards (nothing as prestigious as the Newberry, but some state awards and kids' choice things) and did well enough to publish a couple of series. I am certain they never made anything like a living wage at it.

My late cousin who wrote for Silhouette in the late 70s/early 80s may have done better financially, but she churned out a LOT of books - several a year, under at least three different pseudonyms. (I used to be such a snob about romance - and then I tried to write one! )

I always get a laugh when I watch "Castle" on TV, because the "mystery writer as multimillionaire" thing is clearly somebody's little bit of wish fulfillment. It happens to a few writers, but not many, and I suspect things like movie adaptations have to be part of the deal before the real money kicks in.

I love writing and am in this for the long haul. That's why after getting that positive-blunt feedback from an agent, I decided to go with the small press to start. Buzz is totally regional but has a loyal fan base. When I get the sales reports, my numbers are in the hundreds not the thousands, but on the other hand, fans write me and I know they were touched by something I wrote. Isn't that what writing is about?

I'm fortunate in that the couple of personalized Rs I've received have come with some really encouraging compliments. Of course, they're still Rs; but at least I know I don't have to be embarrassed about what I'm trying to sell.

Still enjoying it.

I'm with Namatu. This is the point for me. Sometimes I despair of ever being able to share my work with anyone else - but when I can shake off the ego, I really do have a good time.

 

[BfloGal]

I always get a laugh when I watch "Castle" on TV, because the "mystery writer as multimillionaire" thing is clearly somebody's little bit of wish fulfillment. It happens to a few writers, but not many, and I suspect things like movie adaptations have to be part of the deal before the real money kicks in.

That's the dream. I wonder if the show's writers laugh when they write that kind of thing. I'm sure they've had much the same journey we've had.

I've never thought of making a living writing. With a few notable exceptions--those names we all know--the few writers I know of who are making money tend to be earning sweatshop wages. Even with my "big six" contract--unless it earns out its advance--I would have been better off, money-wise, getting a job at McDonald's. Especially when you figure all the hours it takes to write, edit, and then promote a novel. Not to mention the mental anguish, self-doubt, and angst every writer seems to pour into each page.

Publishing isn't kind to writers.

 

[Kate Thornton]

I've had quite a few shorts published, but not even Womans World (a high paying venue for very short mysteries - and romances!) could not compete with the money I made from non-fiction articles.

I consider money from fiction to be a sort of wonderful dessert, but my main course always was the day job (from which I am now retired.)

I will be delighted when I finally finish the novel and see where that goes.

Kate

 

[vagough]

I love writing and am in this for the long haul. That's why after getting that positive-blunt feedback from an agent, I decided to go with the small press to start. Buzz is totally regional but has a loyal fan base. When I get the sales reports, my numbers are in the hundreds not the thousands, but on the other hand, fans write me and I know they were touched by something I wrote. Isn't that what writing is about?

I'm having fun with all this. I'm writing for a regional art magazine, doing some freelancing and writing my sequel. Still enjoying it. That can only lead to good things.

As namatu, liz, and others have said, I'm absolutely with you here. I have no illusions about the odds of getting published, much less of selling lots of copies. But I just love the writing part, of creating and developing my stories and characters, of having them come to life on the page (well, the computer screen, actually, at the moment). It's just fun and immensely satisfying!

 

[MarkEsq]

The other aspect to this, which I'd not considered until coming across it, was that even if you are selling books, hold off on buying that yacht. The numbers side was always interesting to me so I don't mind sharing a few vague things, just to give you an idea.

Initially, I got a three-book deal in October 2011. Average advance for each. All three books aren't out yet, but two are and I've received precisely half of my advance (each on split into thirds: signing contracts, handing in mss, publication). So even though I should have received 2/3, I haven't. Par for the course I'm told.

Additionally, I've sold in seven countries. Most of those contracts were signed around Xmas of last year. Total received:

$0.

In all, I suppose I've "made" fractionally more than $100k from the Hugo series, but actually received about one tenth of that.

And while that $100k figure is impressive, almost half will go to agents and the tax man.

With all those delays, I'm thinking inflation is my biggest enemy.

 

[Namatu]

Thanks for sharing, Mark. The delay in when the money actually gets to you is another thing for us to remember. Although I guess if it's distributed over more years, the tax impact is lessened.

 

[Introversion]

Thanks for sharing, Mark.

It sounds like one should not really even think about the advance as "money up-front"? The reality of it sounds closer to a guaranteed sales quota.

If you were getting paid per-sale, the money would trickle in over time. You just wouldn't know how many sales you'll get; maybe few, maybe many.

The same seems to be true of the advance, only in effect you "know" you're getting at least X dollars' worth of sales. But, the money still trickles in.

Does that sound like a fair way to think about it?