Can I have an NB antagonist?

[Brigid Barry]

Sorry to bother but I've gotten opinions ranging from "that's great" to "OMG NO" (all from cis people) to having a non-binary antagonist in my way far future fantasy novel.

The antagonist was written as NB before I made them into an antagonist. They aren't the only NB person in the story, and them being NB isn't why they're an antagonist, and I don't attempt to write them from the perspective of an NB person. I can easily change pronouns if an NB antagonist would be considered offensive rather than inclusive.

 

[lizmonster]

Sorry to bother but I've gotten opinions ranging from "that's great" to "OMG NO" (all from cis people) to having a non-binary antagonist in my way far future fantasy novel.

I'm a cis person, but my instinct is "sure, why not?"

I don't think it's a "bury (or villainize) your gays" if they're not the only nb in the book.

ETA bc of course what you needed was Yet Another Cis POV. Sorry!

 

[The Second Moon]

I'm cis so keep that in mind when reading my opinion, but if they aren't the only non-binary person in the book, I think it would be fine. And as long as their gender identity isn't the reason for their antagonistic actions it seems okay. That's just my thoughts.

 

[CMBright]

My thoughts are along the lines of @The Second Moon. As long as the antagonist isn't the antagonist because they are NB, you're probably good. Having other non-cis characters that happen to be non-cis would help.

But, again, someone who never questioned being cis.

 

[alexp336]

I feel like the question here isn't so much "can I have a NB antagonist" as "will having an NB antagonist make people mad at me/my story." As a cis gay person myself I obviously can't speak for NB people, but I can say that I'd love to see more well-rounded, engaging gay villains in books. The emphasis being on "well-rounded" rather than simply the fact that they're gay.

My gut tells me NB people would also like to see more representation in fiction, and of all different flavors of characters. I also think this is one of those times a sensitivity reader would be handy. I would be very surprised, from what I know of you BB, if you wrote something that ended up being hurtful, but I also know that sometimes our blindspots are as mysterious to ourselves as they are potentially damaging. Another pair of eyes seldom hurts in that situation, and goes a long way to demonstrating to potential NB readers that you're trying to be respectful about a three-dimensional character rather than simply jumping on a topical theme.

Just my 2c; ignore at will

 

[owlion]

Sorry to bother but I've gotten opinions ranging from "that's great" to "OMG NO" (all from cis people) to having a non-binary antagonist in my way far future fantasy novel.

The antagonist was written as NB before I made them into an antagonist. They aren't the only NB person in the story, and them being NB isn't why they're an antagonist, and I don't attempt to write them from the perspective of an NB person. I can easily change pronouns if an NB antagonist would be considered offensive rather than inclusive.

As a NB person, I think that sounds like it should be fine! The only issue might be if the other NB characters are barely present (like tiny side characters who maybe say one line and vanish), but if there are other relatively significant NB characters who aren't on the antagonist's side, it sounds pretty safe to me.

 

[Brigid Barry]

Thank you all for your feedback, especially Alex and Owlion for taking the time to give your perspectives.

Ever since I got the first "omg no" I have been far more mindful of Lind's motivation and actions to make sure they're a multi-dimensional character rather than a cardboard cutout with a they/them pronoun. The other NB characters don't have major roles, although one has enough of a position that they do get more than one line.

 

[alexp336]

At the risk of making this a discussion about a question you didn't exactly ask, Brigid, something I'm now wondering about is how much being NB (or, from my own perspective, how much being gay) is instrumental to the character and, from that, to their being the antagonist. The bit that stuck in my head was when you said:

I can easily change pronouns if an NB antagonist would be considered offensive rather than inclusive.

I know that was likely intended as a "if people think I'm out of line, I can make it so this person isn't NB any more," and yet it also made me think "so how is their being NB actually part of this?"

Again, a lot of my thinking (which is disorganized, but it's Monday and I'm procrastinating from my day job, oops) is rooted in the whole "wanting to see more gay villains" thing. In that situation, I'd want the character to be a fleshed-out gay person, not just a bad guy who happened to be into other guys not girls. Not from the angle of "they're the villain because they're gay," but at the same time recognizing and reflecting that being gay is going to shape them as a character overall. (With yet another proviso that I recognize you're writing in a far future setting, when the implications of things like homophobia and prejudices around NB people will undoubtedly be different.)

I guess what I'm asking is... if you could change their pronouns easily and not impact their character, how does them being NB or not actually matter?

Apologies for the possible derail, and thank you for the topic. This is really interesting to think about.

 

[Brigid Barry]

Not a derail at all, it's something I've thought about considerably, actually. And I would love for the topic to expand beyond just the role of antagonist if that's the direction it goes.

I am not 100% sure that I understood this:

I guess what I'm asking is... if you could change their pronouns easily and not impact their character, how does them being NB or not actually matter?

but I'm going to try to answer anyway.

It is a far future world, centuries after society smartened up enough to realize that people are...get this...people. So in the world I've created it doesn't matter what their gender is. They just are and it is. It's not even a question of it being "allowed" or "tolerated". A woman's experience isn't going to differ all that much from a man's or NB, so Lind being non-binary doesn't matter to the story or the character. They just are. It's no more questioned in the society than our society would question someone's height or eye color.

The cis perspective that I got on this was that I, a cis woman, am not allowed to put an NB/trans character in a negative role. Only cis characters can be cast as villains or I'm being transphobic and it's offensive.

 

[lizmonster]

The cis perspective that I got on this was that I, a cis woman, am not allowed to put an NB/trans character in a negative role. Only cis characters can be cast as villains or I'm being transphobic and it's offensive.

You are going to offend somebody. That will happen no matter what you write.

I’ve written a few nb characters. One was a POV character; everyone I saw referring to them in reviews called them “him.” The other got me someone on FB coming at me for being “woke.”

I’ve always come at it the way you have: in my universe, gender/sexuality isn’t a hot button anymore. I can understand if some actual nb people feel that’s eliding a lot of issues, but I wrote what I wrote and there it is.

My kid in college has a fairly diverse friend group. I can ask her to bounce the issue off them if you like. They’re perhaps younger than your intended audience, but it would at least be a non-old-cis-lady perspective.

 

[CMBright]

The cis perspective that I got on this was that I, a cis woman, am not allowed to put an NB/trans character in a negative role. Only cis characters can be cast as villains or I'm being transphobic and it's offensive.

Would this individual have the same reaction to a trans or NB writer casting someone who is NB as an antagonist? Would this individual object to an NB protagonist?

There is also the question of whether LGBTQ+ readers would find an NB antagonist offensive. Since those readers are individuals, I can see it ranging from offensive to acceptable.

@lizmonster has a great point. You are going to offend someone, if only by portraying LGBTQ+ people as people who are no different from cis, het, etc. people.

 

[alexp336]

It is a far future world, centuries after society smartened up enough to realize that people are...get this...people. So in the world I've created it doesn't matter what their gender is. They just are and it is. It's not even a question of it being "allowed" or "tolerated". A woman's experience isn't going to differ all that much from a man's or NB, so Lind being non-binary doesn't matter to the story or the character. They just are. It's no more questioned in the society than our society would question someone's height or eye color.

This makes sense, yes. I think I have a tendency to think about things from a current-times perspective, since that's what I write (though ironically I probably read more SF than anything else these days).

The cis perspective that I got on this was that I, a cis woman, am not allowed to put an NB/trans character in a negative role. Only cis characters can be cast as villains or I'm being transphobic and it's offensive.

Again, not a NB person, so large pinch of salt required here, but I suspect as @lizmonster and @CMBright have said, sometimes people are going to be offended no matter what you do - and how careful/sensitive you are. That obviously doesn't mean not bothering to try not to cause offense in the first place, ha. Just that there's only so much you can achieve, even if you set out with the best of intentions.

 

[Brigid Barry]

I know someone will be offended. I'm sure that there will be a slew of fantasy fans who will be super offended that the world isn't run by giant hairy men throwing tiny women over their shoulders to do unspeakable things in between bouts of murdering everything. I wrote a world that I would like to inhabit. If someone doesn't want to share that world with me because people aren't all the same and can still be safe and happy, there are plenty of other fantasy books that they can enjoy.

@lizmonster it would be greatly appreciated if you'd be willing to run my question by "the kids". They aren't my target audience but they will certainly be more in tune to things.

It sounds like I'm okay to keep going with what I started. I think some people take being allies so to heart that they don't realize it's just a different flavor of othering.

 

[lizmonster]

It sounds like I'm okay to keep going with what I started. I think some people take being allies so to heart that they don't realize it's just a different flavor of othering.

v o u c h.

I don't usuallly talk to The Kid until the evening, but I'll report back what info I get.

 

[owlion]

Thank you all for your feedback, especially Alex and Owlion for taking the time to give your perspectives.

Ever since I got the first "omg no" I have been far more mindful of Lind's motivation and actions to make sure they're a multi-dimensional character rather than a cardboard cutout with a they/them pronoun. The other NB characters don't have major roles, although one has enough of a position that they do get more than one line.

I think having them be a multi-dimensional character is definitely very important - and to not shy away from them being able to do bad things like anyone else (one thing that can happen with rep is that the character is made 'perfect' to try and avoid upsetting people - which then upsets people because they're not a proper character). I don't know how minor the NB characters' roles are, so can't comment for sure, but from my perspective it would be cool to have one who's more prominent and not an antagonist, but I wouldn't be offended or anything if not.

The cis perspective that I got on this was that I, a cis woman, am not allowed to put an NB/trans character in a negative role. Only cis characters can be cast as villains or I'm being transphobic and it's offensive.

Generally, I think the issues come when the only (major) minority character is the antagonist and/or they're 'evil' because of being a minority. I guess for perspective, think of it like there's only one woman in the story and she's the antagonist because of something to do with her being a woman - it looks a bit pointed, even if it wasn't intended that way.

 

[Lime-Yay]

I’m curious how gender identity works in your society. Like, does everyone go by they/them until they announce otherwise? I think the thing about pronouns is there is a self-determination and coming out aspect that will probably persist until we completely overhaul our language (which I’m personally rooting for but kind of complex to write for today’s audience).

What I’m getting at, is I think Alex’s point stands RE gender identity influencing them, even if it looks different in the far off time/place. Lind might have a variety of friends, but most likely, some of their closest friends will also be NB or gender queer because even in an enlightened society, you’re drawn to people who are like you and really “get” you. Regardless if Lind is a loner, I feel like queer subculture won’t disappear entirely. This might be all off page, but something to consider.

 

[Sheik13_Loz]

In my NB perspective, why not.
One of my favourite shows is similar to how you described. Transphobia is not a thing, and the only officialy NB character is an antagonist.
I think like others have said, it works if everyone is a fully fleshed out character and NB antagonist isn't the only minority and isn't evil because minority.
So, it sounds good to me.

 

[Brigid Barry]

Thanks Lime-yay. This is something I've spent a lot of time thinking about because obviously no one is wearing a name tag. Upon meeting Lind, the MC identifies them as they/them but why? And ultimately I decided that it's no different from how I will see a person and assume their gender. When this WIP was a sequel, in the first book that MC approached someone and got their attention with "Mix?" and was corrected with "Miz, but my name is X, which I prefer". There's something that leads someone to make an assumption but it's not on the page. I might change that in revisions.

Thanks Shiek!

 

[alexp336]

I don't know if you've read "Ancillary Justice," but the Radchaai language Ann Leckie invented for that doesn't have any gender markers for people. Almost all characters are described as she/her. Some readers (and reviewers) apparently found it harder to parse than others.

ETA: When I pointed out the "found it harder to parse" part, it was just an observation of fact rather than a suggestion that people should invariably choose whatever language conceptions readers find "easiest"

 

[lizmonster]

Apologies for the delay! The Kid’s crowd says it’s fine “as long as theyre not a villain bc of their gender or their gender is portrayed as evil.” So your antagonist gets the youth vote.

 

[SariBelleW]

Following! I'm in almost the exact same position as you, BB. Future set on earth, and gender diversity is fully accepted. As you say, people are people.

My antagonist didn't start as the antagonist, but they did start out NB from the get go. It wasn't until I was 50% through that I realised how big a part they played, secretly pulling the strings of all the other antagonists. The original main antagonist is a woman, as is my MC.

I have been wondering all the same things, so very happy to see this thread.

 

[Brigid Barry]

Hopefully it's as helpful to others as it is to me!