Conflict so soon?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lifelongdagger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
515
Reaction score
41
Location
Romford, London, Uk
After a serving up the first few hundred words of my wip in SYW, one of the comments was that there was no conflict. That it would be a no sell unless the conflict, or a conflict, was made apparent to a reading agent/publisher in the first three or four paragraphs. Just wondered what the consensus on this was.

Many thanks,

Ian
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,030
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
Well, maybe not the main conflict of the book - but I'd say something should occur, conflictwise, pretty sharpish.

If there's nothing happening ( or nothing interesting) why have those paragraphs there? Start where the story starts - where the normal life of your MC starts to go pear-shaped. If you do that, a conflict - even if it's a minor one - will be right there at the opening.
 

Misa Buckley

Extraordinary Romance
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
4,945
Reaction score
291
Website
misabuckley.com
There needs to be some form of conflict from the start. That doesn't need to be a major bone of contention; your character simply being disaffected with his/her lot is enough.

Conflict in a story is the catalyst for action. After that first conflict, it should be a case of cause and effect. So the conflict results in the character doing something that has a certain outcome. That outcome effects what the charatcer does next. And so on.

I also need to apply this rule to my novels - I'm terribly good at the theory, not so great in practise!
 

Lifelongdagger

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 12, 2006
Messages
515
Reaction score
41
Location
Romford, London, Uk
Thanks, IRU and misadatas.

The conflict is there, but just a bit too far down. Just need to shift it up a bit further, kill some darlings, and I think I have it.

Cheers,

Ian
 

Rolling Thunder

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
15,209
Reaction score
5,342
Tension. At the minimum there should be some sort of tension on each page.
 

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
19,290
Reaction score
5,743
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
Well, maybe not the main conflict of the book - but I'd say something should occur, conflictwise, pretty sharpish.

If there's nothing happening ( or nothing interesting) why have those paragraphs there? Start where the story starts - where the normal life of your MC starts to go pear-shaped. If you do that, a conflict - even if it's a minor one - will be right there at the opening.

Exactly.

The only thing that makes a story worth reading is that moment where their normal life diverges from everyone else's. If that moment is a meteorite crashing through the ceiling so the alien inside can crown your MC king of the universe, you don't want to waste three pages on how the MC ate his eggs that morning. Cut it as close to impact as possible.
 

BlackBriar

Bricoleur
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
1,295
Reaction score
203
Location
South
I have a few simple rules, to guide most people who have problems with their ch 1.

1. No more than three paragraphs at the beginning of Ch 1. So pare down all those boring paragraphs after three. After three, I start to lose interest.

2. Start as close to the dialogue as possible. You think the reader needs backstory? Chances are they don't. All backstory looks pretty much the same and gets boring.

3. Kill all repetition in the first chapter. Stop pounding information into the readers head, especially when we have met a character the PoV doesn't like and so on.

One thing I often see in SYW is paragraph after paragraph, repetition after repetition. Usually the dialogue and the beats end up showing what has been driven into the reader's head by the previous telling in the paragraphs above.

Edit:

Course, this may not apply to Contemp. I don't read contemporary at all, so I have no clue what's expected.
 
Last edited:

Libbie

Worst song played on ugliest guitar
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,309
Reaction score
1,095
Location
umber and black Humberland
After a serving up the first few hundred words of my wip in SYW, one of the comments was that there was no conflict. That it would be a no sell unless the conflict, or a conflict, was made apparent to a reading agent/publisher in the first three or four paragraphs. Just wondered what the consensus on this was.

Many thanks,

Ian

Without reading the rest of the thread, I'm going to open my big mouth and say that the first page doesn't need to do anything but make the reader want to read the next page. Whether you use conflict, voice, or setting to accomplish that doesn't really matter.

I do agree that SOME conflict -- or at least the promise of a conflict -- needs to come early on in the manuscript, but in the first couple of paragraphs? That seems extreme to me.
 

BlackBriar

Bricoleur
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
1,295
Reaction score
203
Location
South
Without reading the rest of the thread, I'm going to open my big mouth and say that the first page doesn't need to do anything but make the reader want to read the next page. Whether you use conflict, voice, or setting to accomplish that doesn't really matter.

I do agree that SOME conflict -- or at least the promise of a conflict -- needs to come early on in the manuscript, but in the first couple of paragraphs? That seems extreme to me.

Yeah, I agree with that. Writing fiction is not the same as writing a thesis statement. All you have to do is hook them, and you can do that anyway you want to.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,654
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
hs at the beginning of Ch 1. So pare down all those boring paragraphs after three. After three, I start to lose interest.

I think 3 is already too late. If you give me only character descriptions and how beautiful the house is for 3 OPENING paragraphs, if you don't start with some kind of intrigue or tension, I'll put the book down... UNLESS the writing is incredibly exceptional, brilliant.

2. Start as close to the dialogue as possible. You think the reader needs backstory? Chances are they don't. All backstory looks pretty much the same and gets boring.

I don't see what dialogue has to do with it. Narrative doesn't mean it's all backstories. I suggest skip back stories or find a better way to include them (dialogue, for example), but it doesn't mean you have to start with dialogue. The entire first chapter could be action (narrative) only and that would work.

The most common "mistakes" writers make in their first chapter (or even chapters) are:

- that's not the start of the story. Instead, the start of the story is three chapters later. Instead, try to begin the book as close to the inciting incident as possible. Then you can fall back into some flashbacks if you want.

- start with a bunch of "crane" shots -- it's a movie term, meaning the movie starts with a long shot of the town, then zoom in to a house, then zoom in and then you see the characters waking up or having breakfast or whatever "ordinary" world they live in. That could go on for another 10 minutes. It would work for a movie because these scenes are short and also movie-goers are captive. If you do that with a novel, they will put the book down.

- start with a HUGE conflict (explosions, mayhem,, end of the world, whatever) when we don't even know the characters yet. This may work with thrillers when the main characters will show up later to clean up the mess, and the rest of the book is equally or more thrilling. Otherwise, you've set up huge expectations.

- back stories or tons of info dump/exposition/explanations. If you start the book thinking the readers are going to be lost without all that explanations and "why things are," then you've already insulted their intelligence. Plus you've revealed too much already. It's like showing your hand too quickly in a poker game. Also, Explaineverythingitis is a common disease for many writers.

A lot of these problems stem from the fact that it's the start of the story and the writer is trying to get it all together. Character development, settings, background stories, etc. etc. It's the literary equivalent of "clearing one's throat" before speaking or singing. So, write them out in the first draft. Write them so you can get into your groove. But once you did, in your rewrites find the real beginning of the book and start the novel there. Rearrange everything else if you must.
 

C.M.C.

Archetype
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
532
Reaction score
34
Website
www.freewebs.com
Most will say that you need to have a conflict on the first page, but I would broaden that advice. You don't need to have a conflict, but you need to have something dramatic or interesting that will grip the reader. The style today has conditioned readers into needing a hook on the first page, and I don't see the trend dying out anytime soon. In this age of short attention spans, I consider it solid advice.
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,030
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
Whether you use conflict, voice, or setting to accomplish that doesn't really matter.

Of course in a perfect world it'd be all three :D A good voice or a way with description won't get you far though, because the sonflict is why we're reading the book ( usually). A strong voice that waffles on about something unimportant is just as boring as starting with a description of the weather. It'd have to be pretty damn outstanding to keep me reading - without some tension ( I think RT has it right, tension is a better word) or the threat of it, even if it's only the MC worrying about the parking ticket they're about to get, because they're late for a vital interview and then...if there's no tension, it's...how do I put it...flat.

Without tension, I have no urge to read the next page, no matter how pretty the writing, I think 'Aha, book with small plot bulked up with nice writing.' Harsh maybe - but then again agents aren't reading your first page for the good of their health. They - and others - read for the story. And story = tension, worry, even if it's a small worry.

Even a description can have tension, of course.
 

Ruth2

Tam, na Koncu Drevoreda
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Messages
8,910
Reaction score
490
Location
In your dreams...
Hmm. I went back to look at my WIP and on one hand I can see cutting the first three paragraphs, but... on the other hand just plopping readers down into the fourth paragraph would be confusing.... hmm... decisions, decisions....
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,654
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Hmm. I went back to look at my WIP and on one hand I can see cutting the first three paragraphs, but... on the other hand just plopping readers down into the fourth paragraph would be confusing.... hmm... decisions, decisions....

Or rewrite the 4th paragraph as 1st so it wouldn't be confusing.
 

VChandler

I think I can, I think I can...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
50
Reaction score
9
Location
inside my head
I think it depends on what kind of book you're writing. If it's a thriller or sci fi, then yeah, you probably need some conflict/action early on. In a character driven genre I think you need some time to get to know the character. At least a little bit. No, we don't need to know how they slept, or what they're eating for breakfast (*deleting that from my novel now...*), but I think we need to have a feel for what they're about before their world comes crashing down around them.
Of course, this is all just my personal opinion. I haven't been around here all that long, so I'm learning right along with you.
 

BlackBriar

Bricoleur
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
1,295
Reaction score
203
Location
South
I think 3 is already too late. If you give me only character descriptions and how beautiful the house is for 3 OPENING paragraphs, if you don't start with some kind of intrigue or tension, I'll put the book down... UNLESS the writing is incredibly exceptional, brilliant.

Should have clarified:

1. I don't believe the 'conflict' has to be introduced in the first chapter, at all. Something needs to be there to hook the reader, and book-wide conflict doesn't have to be it. I personally think you should hook the reader with Character is dialogue first and foremost. The world and situation you created for that character are probably not that unique when you pare it down. Your character though, can be unique!

2. I would like to see action (fighting, running, walking to a fight, mentally preparing for a business meeting, family arriving outside, whatever) in those first three paragraphs. I wasn't saying that the first three should be filled with character descriptions and so on.

I don't see what dialogue has to do with it. Narrative doesn't mean it's all backstories. I suggest skip back stories or find a better way to include them (dialogue, for example), but it doesn't mean you have to start with dialogue. The entire first chapter could be action (narrative) only and that would work.

Why would the first chapter, filled with narrative action, be interesting (unless it's a really short first chapter). It's not like you care about the character, since you just met the guy/gal. Dialogue creates character, while one writer's narrative is all too often no different than another writer's narrative. Sure, some writers have really good and unique narrative, but most do not. Jack did this, then he did that, then he did some more of this. He didn't like this person, cause that person did this, but it's okay, cause that's the type of person Jack was. Sure, you can show some inner monologue, but it's better to find a place to start off at where there is some dialogue. Dialogue creates character best in my opinion.

We all are separate and unique characters. When you think about it, a character in a book is made up of three things. Dialogue (how he presents himself to people), Inner Monologue (what he is really thinking), and Narrative (his actions and how people see him without knowing him).

If I see someone running down the street, diving between cars and being chased after dobermans. What does that tell me about that person's character? I can make guesses, but running from dobermans does not create character. It simply means you don't want your ass bitten. The situation you are in can tell us something about your character, but it's not the best tool.

Inner Monologue can tell us a lot about a character, but it's use should be limited. We don't want their whole detailed history in interior monologue. Right? People don't have running convo's in their head (at least that's what has been said here at AW). They act! and rarely think before they act!

It is dialogue, compared with action-filled narrative, and inner monologue, that is 100% normal and decides how we should treat a person or view a character. We deal with people through dialogue every day. We can guess what people are thinking through their speech, after we have spoken with them for months and years. It is the most important part of characterization in most cases. I am now saying the other two are not important, but dialogue in most cases should be at the center of your character development. And characters create the book (unless we are talking sci-fi here).

And a good story has good characters!

- that's not the start of the story. Instead, the start of the story is three chapters later. Instead, try to begin the book as close to the inciting incident as possible. Then you can fall back into some flashbacks if you want.
'

Jack looked at his enemy, who stood on the dais, and spoke down to Jack as if he was a prophet. Jack knew what he had to say, if he wanted to end this all. No way in hell was he going to let the prophet win. So Jack spoke to the prophet, and he knew that the Priest were going to stand up against blackmail.

Jack reached for his gun, but the so-called prophet saw it coming and dived off the dais and into a side door. Jack chased after him. He wouldn't let the man win.

The prophet looked down at Jack. "My plan is in motion. Soon, all of the churches will be under my command."

"You think it'll be so easy?" Jack said. "Even the Priests won't allow you to blackmail them because of a few photos."

Jack reached for his gun, but the prophet saw it coming and dived off the stage and dashed for the door. Jack's shot rang out as the door closed behind the prophet.

"I won't let you win!" Jack yelled, dashing to the door and chasing after the prophet.

Not the best example, but imagine the narrative going on and on. It doesn't matter if it's filled with action. All writers can do a conflict scene and some can do them quite well. But first we must be interested in the character. One writer's chapter filled with some character running for his life in the woods, with hunting dogs on his trail is not much different than another character's stealing of documents from the inside of a business in downtown New York.

Show us some dialogue, build the character, then bring about the inciting incident. You can do all of that in a chapter 1.

- back stories or tons of info dump/exposition/explanations. If you start the book thinking the readers are going to be lost without all that explanations and "why things are," then you've already insulted their intelligence. Plus you've revealed too much already. It's like showing your hand too quickly in a poker game. Also, Explaineverythingitis is a common disease for many writers.

Agreed, and that is why they need to get to the dialogue. Just the other day, in SYW, I saw a piece where the character goes on about how she and this person had conflict. The character, in inner monologue, described the antagonist in detail. What happened a few paragraphs later? They have dialogue, where this conflict comes up. This makes the previous paragraphs quite pointless. As I've said in my first post in this thread, my advice was advice for most writers, not all.

A lot of these problems stem from the fact that it's the start of the story and the writer is trying to get it all together. Character development, settings, background stories, etc. etc. It's the literary equivalent of "clearing one's throat" before speaking or singing. So, write them out in the first draft. Write them so you can get into your groove. But once you did, in your rewrites find the real beginning of the book and start the novel there. Rearrange everything else if you must.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, and the real beginning is often with dialogue, or a few (3 at most) paragraphs before that dialogue.


Now, as I have pointed out, my simple rules are what most writers should probably follow, if they have ch 1 problems. They are certainly not rules for everyone. I am sure there are good as hell writers out there who can write a hooking chapter 1 with just narrative. Also, the books I read have action in them. As I said above, I am not a contemporary or lit reader. So maybe it's done differently there. I have no clue.

It is just that from the stories I often read in the YA SYW, the real story starts with the dialogue, and everything the writer wrote before that ends up being mentioned again or completely forgotten about.

So take my little rules with a grain of salt if you want to.

Edit: Okay, I edited this a bit after posting, but I'm done now! :D
 
Last edited:

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
3,459
Reaction score
653
Website
www.joannabourne.com
Hmm. I went back to look at my WIP and on one hand I can see cutting the first three paragraphs, but... on the other hand just plopping readers down into the fourth paragraph would be confusing.... hmm... decisions, decisions....

Actually
<cough>
the advice I give most folks working on their first manuscript is to finish the whole thing, then chop off the first three chapters.

It is surprising how often this is an improvement.
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,030
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
1. I don't believe the 'conflict' has to be introduced in the first chapter, at all. Something needs to be there to hook the reader, and book-wide conflict doesn't have to be it.
In a character driven genre I think you need some time to get to know the character. At least a little bit.
It doesn't have to be THE conflict -- but there should be A conflict.

It could be a book about the effect of magical bison on the ozone levels and the end of the world as we know it - but you could start with MC worried about his job when the boss calls him in unexpectedly.

As for dialogue revealing character -- that's a tricky one. It can do, sure, and it definitely reveals their voice. But the real test of a character is how they react to change and / or conflict. That shows the character rather than telling it.

Because there's plenty of people who talk the talk - how many actually walk the walk when it comes to the crunch?
 

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
3,459
Reaction score
653
Website
www.joannabourne.com
What is needed in the opening of the story:

Good writing.
The reader has to be convinced she is in safe hands.

Something interesting.
A reason to turn to the next page. A 'what comes next?'

What is optional, rather than required, at the opening of the story:

The protagonist
Dialog
Active movement
Conflict
Explanation of what's going on

To find out how to start stories, go to the nearest library or brick-and-mortar, pull down fifty authors in a row, and look at the first page. Or you can hunt down first pages on-line. Look at recent and excellent books. There are many lists. An Amazon list is here. You can find the first pages of most of these on googlebooks. Fr'instance, here, here, here. here, here.

It will soon be obvious that there are no 'rules' about how to start a story, though you'll begin to notice commonalities in technique.

What you will always see is good writing and the ability to create intriguing questions that lure the reader onward.
 
Last edited:

BlackBriar

Bricoleur
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
1,295
Reaction score
203
Location
South
It doesn't have to be THE conflict -- but there should be A conflict.

It could be a book about the effect of magical bison on the ozone levels and the end of the world as we know it - but you could start with MC worried about his job when the boss calls him in unexpectedly.

Did I say there shouldn't be? In both of my first chapters, there is conflict. Not The conflict, but A conflict.

Edit: And I can't stress how important it is when I say "most writers should probably do this". Robert Jordan (if he was still alive) could have wrote a whole book filled with narrative (if it was around 400 pgs :D ), and I would have read the whole damn thing, hating every minute of it. Cause I love his style, even if it breaks the rules. Maybe you all have a fav author who can do that too. One whose writing you just love.
 
Last edited:

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,030
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
Did I say there shouldn't be? In both of my first chapters, there is conflict. Not The conflict, but A conflict.
.

Er, well it was you I quoted, which seemed a little vague. I was using that and expanding in my answer to illustrate my point - that it doesn't have to be book wide conflict.
 

BlackBriar

Bricoleur
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
1,295
Reaction score
203
Location
South
As for dialogue revealing character -- that's a tricky one. It can do, sure, and it definitely reveals their voice. But the real test of a character is how they react to change and / or conflict. That shows the character rather than telling it.

Because there's plenty of people who talk the talk - how many actually walk the walk when it comes to the crunch?

I agree. Maybe I didn't give narrative enough credit. Let me just note I am talking about the first chapter though. I am not saying you should have nothing but dialogue. All three are good to me, which is why I write in 3rd limited and 1st. Ch 1 is tricky and different though, and I would rather see more dialogue than narrative in the first chapter. Then put them in any conflict (which you can do in the first chapter of course). That could just be me though...

Er, well it was you I quoted, which seemed a little vague. I was using that and expanding in my answer to illustrate my point - that it doesn't have to be book wide conflict.

Ah, okay. My fault.
 

Ruth2

Tam, na Koncu Drevoreda
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Messages
8,910
Reaction score
490
Location
In your dreams...
Chop the first three chapters? But I only have 8 chapters.... lol!

And of course I LOVE my first three paragraphs.... love 'em love 'em love 'em. Alas.
 

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
3,459
Reaction score
653
Website
www.joannabourne.com
Chop the first three chapters? But I only have 8 chapters.... lol!

And of course I LOVE my first three paragraphs.... love 'em love 'em love 'em. Alas.

Finish the other 27 chapters of the manuscript. THEN reconsider the first three chapters. <g>

And, who knows, you may end up keeping those first three paras.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.