We're Forever Blowing Bubbles

Don

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Agorism FTW!
Gee willikers, Mr. Wilson! Who could possibly have imagined that after throwing three billion dollars at the auto market, prices would go up and demand would slacken? It would take a wild imagination to come up with such an outcome. That, or having observed the housing market do exactly the same thing from government throwing cheap money at it for years.:Headbang:
Prices for cars during the Clunkers program went up for everyone. But buyers who used the program on average did about $3,000 better than those that did not.

And if you absolutely have to buy a vehicle in the next two months, you'll most likely pay more to get the same car.

It's a simple matter of supply and demand. The wildly successful Cash for Clunkers program has thrown things out of whack. For the next couple of months, usually peak car buying season, inventories will be low and car shoppers should expect higher prices and fewer choices, experts say.
Oh, and who benefitted from the program? It was the consumers, right, who got the great savings? Nope, it ended up in the dealer's pockets for the most part.
During the weeks the Clunkers program was in effect, buyers of the Toyota Corolla paid 29% closer to the full sticker price than before the program started, according to data from Edmunds.com. Prices were also higher on other popular models. Ford Escape prices were 13% closer to full sticker, and Ford Focus prices were 12% closer.
And here goes the roller-coaster.
So if want a new car at a good price, hang on and spend the next two months picking out a good warm jacket.

Factories have already started churning out new cars to refill drained inventories. Look for prices to plummet in November and December after dealer showrooms have filled up ahead of what is traditionally the slack season for car sales.
So just about the time demand falls off, the factories will be putting a glut of cars on the market. Gee, I wonder if that could lead to some more layoffs? We'll be hearing about the automakers laying off people right before the Christmas holidays again, and everybody will pretend to be surprised.

How many times do the same stupid schemes have to be used before people actually notice that the schemes (and the schemers) are stupid and fail to do what they're intended to do?
 

Synonym

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I believe it would be best if everyone adopts the following attitude: If the government is involved there's going to be a problem. Then you need to dust your crystal ball off and try to figure out what the problem is going to be and how best to keep from being adversely effected.

Supply and demand work well together to set price and availability. When an outside force (government) sticks their fingers into the pot and start stirring, your proportions get skewed. Too many cooks in the kitchen.
 

Delhomeboy

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Playing Devil's Advocate here, but, despite the fact the car companies jacked-up the prices, wasn't it the point to the program to help out the dealers?
 

sulong

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Playing Devil's Advocate here, but, despite the fact the car companies jacked-up the prices, wasn't it the point to the program to help out the dealers?

I don't think so.
I think the point was to attempt to change perception in enough people to be able to claim economic progress.

See? I'm fixing the economy, all by myself. Vote for me and my party.
 

CACTUSWENDY

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You just gotta love it. No two ways about it. lol
 
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Synonym

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The point was to get people to spend some money and take some poor-gas mileage, high polluting cars out of circulation. If it was supposed to help the car companies and dealers, they should have specified only American car companies.

I can't help but see this as a parallel to the housing market as Don has. A lot of people (not all of course), who had no car payments before, will now be scrambling to make them along with higher insurance premium payments.

Too many people can't look past this week when they're hypnotized by bright shiny objects (new cars) and the thought of getting a "good deal". If you really want a "good deal" wait until all these cars start showing back up on the market in a year or so. If you don't mind buying a repo.

Then the used car market, and the new car market will both suffer. Too much supply fueled by an artificially created demand.
 

Don

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Don't miss the impact on the person without a clunker who for some reason had to buy a car while the program was in progress.
buyers of the Toyota Corolla paid 29% closer to the full sticker price than before the program started
There was suddenly a lot more competition out there to buy that Corolla he needed, so not only did he get hit for taxes to let other people buy their cars cheaper, he got hit by a higher purchase price at the dealer as well.

You just can't hardly get a bargain like that any more. Only three billion dollars to raise prices for everybody, drive down sales in the normally high-traffic season coming up because they've already sold those cars in the bubble, destroy a bunch of cars that low-income people would have been happy (and able) to buy, hook a bunch of people into car payments they can't afford in a collapsing economy, inject false hope into the manufacturers so they start hiring to fill a demand already dying off, and set up a whole bunch of people to buy Christmas on credit because they're working again... until the glut at the dealers gets rebuilt. The hits just keep on coming -- literally.

And guess who everybody will be begging to fix all these problems? :rolleyes:

Oh, and even better: now they're gonna do it all over again -- with appliances.
 

Gretad08

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And guess who everybody will be begging to fix all these problems? :rolleyes:

Oh, and even better: now they're gonna do it all over again -- with appliances.

What's going on with appliances? I haven't heard anything about that yet.
 

Synonym

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Say it ain't so Joe, uh Don. I've been thinking about a new fridge, looks like I better get it now rather than later.

I bought a new Pontiac in June. I'm happy, my daughter's happy with our old full-sized van that would have qualified for the program. (The G8 wouldn't have "grin").

They have kids and need the room, I have my first new car and it's fun and fast. Sometimes you accidentally do things at the right time.
 

clintl

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The program did what it was intended to do, get auto sales moving again. Compared to what was going on before, prices going up is a very small problem, and I don't agree that it dims the success of the program significantly.
 

Christine N.

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The thing about is, many of those people who bought cars might NOT have otherwise. So yes, old inventory got cleaned out. So there wouldn't have been as high a demand now anyway, since most wouldn't have bothered buying if not for the program.

And now that they have, everyone has new cars, so there's not as much demand. So in a couple of months, prices will go down again to attract the few buyers that are left, since everyone will be rolling out the brand new models and they'll pile up.

It'll work out. I'm hoping all those fuel efficient vehicles being on the road leads to lower gas prices. They're not bad now, but I could live with them being a little cheaper. (My 'new to me' car, a 2008, which I bought before the program, gets outstanding gas mileage. At least compared to my 17 year old model. So I'm already saving money. I could use more - I've got car payments! :) )
 

Andrew

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The program did what it was intended to do, get auto sales moving again. Compared to what was going on before, prices going up is a very small problem, and I don't agree that it dims the success of the program significantly.

Just wondering if it is akin to those temporary jobs the stimlus was supposed to provide? For the jobs actually "created," how long will they last? I mean, one can only work on a project for so long and then it is completed unless it is the big dig in Boston.
I ponder are we going to have many big digs? Umm.
 

blacbird

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One of the other current and continuing problems, which the "clunkers" program partly overcame on a temporary basis, is the difficulty in securing a loan. Banks are still being very tight-fisted about lending. Just as it continues to drag on the housing market, it drags on car financing as well.

caw
 

whistlelock

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I think people don't understand how production works sometimes.

Especially cars.

The car manufacturers had been cuting production. So, their inventories were lower than normal.

There was a big sale. Many cars were sold. Now dealers have lower than normal inventory.

Low production inventory means low retail inventory.

People do not buy cars there are not there. Imagine walking into a dealership 4 months from now. The show room has one or two cars, the lot has nothing you're interested in. Would you sign papers and put down a chunk of change for a car that will be there in 6 months to a year?

No, you wouldn't. I wouldn't. I buy a car, I want to drive it off the lot now.

So, even if no one buys a car in the next 3 months- what about 6 months from now? what about 8?

Car manufacturer is not an on-demand industry, you have to plan a year or so in advance. And, if your current work force cannot meet that production amount you have to hire more staff.

Thus the car makers are hiring more people so they can build the cars that people will want to buy in 8 months.

Not make cars that people will not be buying in 2 months. Those cars are already made, and sitting in lots waiting to be shipped out.
 

blacbird

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I think people don't understand how production works sometimes.

Especially cars.

The car manufacturers had been cuting production. So, their inventories were lower than normal.

Well, no, not really. They had bazoogles of big SUVs and similar vehicles extracted from the assembly pipe because those had been the things making the big profits in the early 2000s. That was the cause of the inventory glut that happened when the economy went south and nobody could buy anything.

caw
 

Duncan J Macdonald

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People do not buy cars there are not there. Imagine walking into a dealership 4 months from now. The show room has one or two cars, the lot has nothing you're interested in. Would you sign papers and put down a chunk of change for a car that will be there in 6 months to a year?

No, you wouldn't. I wouldn't. I buy a car, I want to drive it off the lot now.
Not in every case. Of the last four cars that I've bought, I've ordered three from the factory. Why? Because the dealers did not have any of those models with the options I wanted. (I'm not speaking of color here, but honest options).

So yes, I walked in and plunked down a chunk of change on a car that wasn't there, and wouldn't be there for eight to twelve weeks.

I'll admit that I'm not typical -- but why shouldn't a pick-up truck come standard with a manual transmission and cruise control? Only if you order it.

Dealers order what they _think_ their customers will buy, or they get shipments from the factory of what the factory thinks that the customers will buy. If they get that wrong, then we get dealers with too much inventory.

There is no reason (aside from the "I Want It Now!" syndrome) that the automotive industry can't be a demand/supply business instead of a supply/demand business.
 

Gregg

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More proof that most politicians have no concept of the "law of unintended consequences."
They live happily in the vacuum of Washington DC.
The rest of us have to live in the real world.
 

Zoombie

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Um...maybe I'm brick stupid, but I thought the law of unintended consequences means that you can't predict the consequences from your law. I.E, they were unintended.

If you try to avoid the law of unintended consequences, you would never do anything cause EVERYTHING has far reaching, unintended consequences.

Soooo, we want politicians to be omnipresent, precognitive super-beings?
 

Don

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Let's see what Bastiat had to say about that, Zoombie, from here.
There is only one difference between a bad economist and a good one: the bad economist confines himself to the visible effect; the good economist takes into account both the effect that can be seen and those effects that must be foreseen.
And there's where the problem begins. As I described in the OP, all the "unintended" consequences of the Cash for Clunkers program were easily foreseen, because basic economics made them easy to foresee. But when those who foresaw them pointed them out, they were ignored. Why? Let's ask Robert K. Merton.
Merton labeled the third source the “imperious immediacy of interest.” By that he was referring to instances in which someone wants the intended consequence of an action so much that he purposefully chooses to ignore any unintended effects.
Politicians garner their support by "doing something" and thereby claiming credit for solving some social problem. By willfully sweeping the "unintended" consequences of that action under the rug, they can get credit for what they "fixed" in this cycle, and set up future problems that will, surprise, surprise, need the future intervention of those same politicians to fix. All this was described for C4C in the OP.

Let's walk through a simple example.

If I buy a banana, I give up some cash, the banana seller gets some cash, I get a banana -- and no distortion is introduced into the economy. So unintended consequences are low.

But if government takes money from some people and gives it to other people so that they can buy bananas, a whole raft of market distortions take place, and those each have their own unintended consequence.

The government has to get its money from somewhere. So it either borrows it, making a debt the citizens have to pay for later, or it prints it, which makes each dollar the citizens already hold worth less, and causes inflation, or it taxes it, which means that people who perhaps had planned to buy a tomato can no longer do so, because that money has left their budget.

Each of those methods causes unintended consequences. For brevity, let's just look at the last one. Because more bananas are sold, the banana growers think the market is larger than it really is, so they plant more banana trees and hire more banana pickers. When the artifically-fueled demand disappears next season, bananas rot on the trees and banana pickers get laid off.

Meanwhile, tomato growers lose business, see a declining market, and plant less and hire less next season.

Never fear, though. Next season, when there's a glut of bananas on the market, and tomato prices go through the roof from reduced supply, the politicians will come swooping in with price supports for the banana industry and price controls on the tomato crop. Those actions will cause further distortions that will have to be dealt with at a later date.

And those new solutions to problems that wouldn't have existed save for distortions introduced last cycle give politicians more power than they had before this whole cycle began.

And THAT is what I mean when I speak of "unintended consequences."

The game of politics cannot create wealth, it can only move it around. Politics, therefore, is a zero-sum game. For every winner, there's a loser. That's the one dirty secret that politicians don't want people to realize, and it's the single most important reason for the obfuscation of "Keynesian economics."
 
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Synonym

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Well stated Don. I wish my brain worked this well in the morning, but we're definitely a late afternoon, evening pair.
 

Don

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That was even before coffee, Syn. :) It's brewing now.
 

MattW

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Government announces "Cold Cash" plan, but only $300 million this time. :D
As is expected for something like this, I tried to navigate the convoluted maze of state agencies that might be responsible for this kind of rebate, and I couldn't find anything specific for my state (NJ) about restrictions or forms to claim it.

And I'm trading in a 20 year old clunker of a central air unit.

Please Mr Government Man, help me be green!!!!