The sad, sad state of college English

[NeuroFizz]

My, my, my. There are certainly some misconceptions floating around here about college students. And many of the posts here are aimed at high school, not college. Not allowed to give lower than a C? In a university? That's more hilarious than any of the quotes of mangled English posted here. And colleges doing away with their English requirements? The university would lose its accreditation.

That said, there is accuracy in the horrible writing abilities of some college students. I could easily add to the list presented here. But that kind of performance comes from a small minority of the total student body at the university level, and those particular students don't remain university students for long. To condemn an entire student body (or the college system in general) for the performance of a few students is not only unfair, but insulting to the many students who are well prepared for college, who are conscientious about their studies, and who continually rise to the challenges the professors present in the classrooms. Some of the students I teach (and have taught) are scary smart--people who would put the vast majority of us to shame in terms of intellectual abilties and academic performance. Many of the students you lump in with the dimwits whose quotes appear earlier in this thread are an absolute joy and pleasure to teach. And I suspect the last thing they would do is to generalize the behavior of a bunch of axe-grinding posters here to the overall sense of fair play and objective evaluation that most AW people espouse.

 

[Nivarion]

oh my god YES proof of what i have been saying.

i have seen it said on here that we need to quit babying my generation. and we really do, we are getting stupid.

the problem is the no child left behind crap. it is crap. it is screwing over the majority because it forces teachers to cater to the minority. it ignores the fact that some people have potential and others don't.

i know people who are getting blown off in high school because the guy who cant figure out how to get a spatula under a burger is getting the attention, when these people could explain highly complex physics after seeing it only once.

i am not the smartest guy i know, and i am frustrated because me and the others who could be something are being ignored for those who choose to be nothing. (or just cant do much better than flipping burgers)

english is also taught wrong. they are just now, just now in my senior year, getting around to teaching syntax. were going to be as bad as the brits before too long (no offense brits)

a short on topic rant, i hope.

 

[DamaNegra]

My Literary Research professor doesn't take any of this crap. He has no problem failing students. He once failed a student because they forgot to add a period in their MLA Works Cited citation.

We need more professors like him. He's awesome.

No. We don't. It's difficult enough to write 3 or 4 essays (each 4 or 5 pages long, of course) in a day. At 2 a.m., no one cares about the stupid periods. I've lost loads of points for this before, and I hate it.

 

[Deleted member 42]

. . .

My heart bleeds.

Mind, it's the heart of someone with a 42 IQ.

Who can't flip burgers.

 

[mscelina]

Everyone's education is what they make it.

 

[Polenth]

My Literary Research professor doesn't take any of this crap. He has no problem failing students. He once failed a student because they forgot to add a period in their MLA Works Cited citation.

We need more professors like him. He's awesome.

That's taking it too far the other way in my opinion. Overly harsh punishments for mistakes don't help people learn. I had an English teacher who was prone to that. I ended up with a collection of unmarked pieces of work because they had 'too many mistakes'.

My solution was to stick to very simple words and constructions. I made fewer mistakes so my work was marked. I didn't learn anything in that class.

 

[mscelina]

I disagree, Polenth. This was a Literary Research professor--where meticulous attention must be paid to details.

 

[Polenth]

I disagree, Polenth. This was a Literary Research professor--where meticulous attention must be paid to details.

It's fair to remove marks for mistakes. But failing someone for a single mistake is extreme. It's unrealistic to expect students to achieve perfect results every time, in any subject.

 

[Deleted member 42]

I suspect the missing period was the last straw; colleges have stringent standards about how, and why, and when you can fail a student.

Heck, I've had students who wanted to spend days (and did) arguing about the difference between a B and a B+.

 

[Clair Dickson]

the problem is the no child left behind crap. it is crap. it is screwing over the majority because it forces teachers to cater to the minority. it ignores the fact that some people have potential and others don't.

i know people who are getting blown off in high school because the guy who cant figure out how to get a spatula under a burger is getting the attention, when these people could explain highly complex physics after seeing it only once.

This problem existed long before NCLB. While I disagree with the legislation, it is not guilty of all the faults assigned to it.

I went to high school years before NCLB and encountered this problem. I teach at an alternative high school where we don't have the testing requirement (yet-- our govt doesn't have a clue what to do with alt ed) and we still have kids that will slack off in even the easiest assignments. And kids who will try to monopolize the teacher to try to ensure that no more work gets assigned, etc.

There will always be students who find trifling things like spelling, grammar, and writing too much trouble to learn. And those who can't be bothered to capitalize or punctuate or learn to spell correctly 'casual' writing that isn't graded... this is not a fault of the system per se. This become a fault of a learner. I can lead my students to water, but it's not my fault if some chose to drown themselves.

Our society in general does not place emphasis on the importance of hard work-- which includes hard work in school. We claim to value education, but there are still large segments of the population that are like Pap Finn in regards to it. Still places where the smart kids are ridiculed and forced into being less smart. The smartest kids will still find ways to make their school experience a bastion of learning, in spite of what the teachers can/can't/won't do. I read-- even when I had to fight to stop certain teachers from taking my books away (I was *done* with all my work...) I spent my time wisely, even though I had to wait for other students to stop futzing around and get the work done. And again, this was years before NCLB was ever concieved, let along implemented.

 

[benbradley]

I think technologies have something to do with it. There was a study showing that some kids now can't communicate without some kind of gadgets (computer, cell phone, PDAs, etc). They text more than they talk. Their writing is all leet speak. But they're also very good at what they can do with computers and technologies. So who cares if the computer whiz can't spell?

When I became a computer whiz we didn't need a college degree either. I DID spell well back then, but that only helped me with writing the right keywords in programming languages.

Email (and bulletin boards) has also lowered the quality of writing. It seems like people are more casual with email, even in business settings. Gone are the pristine grammar and spelling, and people don't really care, as long as you get your message across: broken sentences, spelling errors, wrong punctuation, weird formatting, etc. It's all over the workplace.

A lot of people spend time and money picking out appropriate attire for work, but not so much, it seems, on how well they do their jobs. Oddly, that seems to work well in the business world much of the time.

And for business execs, they have their assistants and speech writers and consultants.

I suppose 'execs' are the higher-ups in large, successful businesses. The middle managers (and presidents of smaller companies, 20-50 people) didn't have secretaries to take dictation and/or correct their spelling.

No Child Left Behind?

This (social promotion and all that stuff) was happening WAY before then. I think it was 7th or 8th grade when I first heard the phrase "social promotion."

<memoir mode>
I was socially promoted through elementary school. I felt like I was falling behind starting in third grade when I was put into a smaller "Emotionally Disturbed" class and never learned cursive writing that I'd seen older kids I knew learning in third grade.. I was back in the "regular classroom" for sixth grade, I think because they canceled or ran out of money for the ED class. I didn't do much classwork and looking back the teachers really thought I was stupid. I learned long division somewhere around the 6th or 7th grade, on my own. I'm still not sure how I learned it. I "graduated" the 7th grade of elementary school in Spring 1970.
In the first year or two in high school I did better, but then slacked off. In the first quarter of 8th grade they had me in "lab math" (remedial) and leaving school at 1PM instead of taking a full load and leaving at 3PM, because the teachers and principal from my elementary school recommended it, thinking I couldn't handle a full school day. That was fixed (I was put into "real" 8th-grade math) and I had a full load the next quarter.

<continue with spending much of high school in the library reading science and SF, failing both 10th and 11th grades, then passing the GED first try at age 18>
</memoir excerpt-teaser>

Let's just hold off a minute. Students really haven't changed that much in terms of writing ability, nor have the standards for acceptable work.

There's a composition exam that all students entering a California state supported college (including the UC schools, all of them) must pass before they can graduate; it's been administered as an essay exam, with the same criteria for creating and grading the exam, since 1898.

The standards haven't changed.

I still fail students. So do my colleagues.

Georgia has a similar essay exam called the "Regent's Test" (because it's required of all college graduates by the Georgia Board of Regents). It only took me taking it twice to pass (if you fail, you go into a remidial class aimed specifically at getting you to past the test). Considering how little essay writing I had done, I think I did amazingly well. I knew a guy who had failed it eight times, and it was getting close to where it was the only thing keeping him from graduating.

Never knew about any of this, I always just kind of assumed it was just because of my school-both Junior and Senior schools had semi-bad reps.
Now I'm scared that I'll end up at a not so good college.
Anyone know if we have a 'Finding Colleges' thread around here?

Do colleges have things like minumum SAT scores for entrance? Do they publish average SAT scores of freshmen? I'd think that would be useful info.

P.S. Is there a book/collection of real spelling/grammar mistakes? I could probably crack myself up for a whole day if I had something like that to occupy me.

It's not often published/printed, but there's this thing called the World Wide Web...


They say ignorance is bliss, and I almost wish I were ignorant. It's been a long time since I've had a warm climax.

 

[Fullback]

Over 90 million American adults are either illiterate or barely literate, reading at less than a 5th-grade level. That number is increasing by 2 million every year. America is suffering from entropy as it enters middle age. It grew from the bountiful resources and land as an adolescent nation, but is failing to grow beyond that as a society. As a culture, it is stunted.

If you ask a typical American adult to give a short description of American history, you'll get a chronology of wars. History is measured in wars, one after the other. If you ask for some examples of American culture, you'll likely get a blank stare, then an offering of TV, movies and sports as examples of culture. Other countries have all of those, so the only remaining answer is that foreigners have culture, not Americans.

Having a common culture, instead of diversity, is how young societies and nations grow to be old nations. When all your education is concentrated into molding good little workers, at the expense of critical thinking and insight from literature past, present and future, the society stops advancing. The slide down the backside of the societal curve is accelerated by entropy.

Forget religion or race, America may split in two someday when the literate and illiterate are fed up with each other.

 

[Cassiopeia]

As a "mature" continuing education student, I can say I see both sides of this. One of the things that really annoys me is when a student in one of my classes complains how hard an exam is. It is meant to be challenging. I'm not fond of the worried of getting good grade but I work bleeding hard for my marks.

In particular one young lady was upset when the final grades were posted. The final exam was listed in order of highest to lowest, without revealing who got what grade. She started carrying on about the 97% someone got and how they ruined the grading curve and "WHO GOT THAT? I want to know cos it's just not fair." I watched our instructor who'd been roped into teaching our geology class shift from one foot to another. She got so obnoxious about asking over and over again, I finally spoke up and said, "I did. What's the problem?"

The dialog went as follows:

Her: Well, you realize you ruined the grade curve for the rest of us don't you?
Me: I fail to see why that is a problem.
Her: Well, the rest of us wanted a better mark too, ya know.
Me: Sorry, I didn't know I was in this class for everyone else.
Her: How the heck did you do that anyway? What are you like...really smart?
Me: Nope, I just read all the chapters, attended all my lectures and did all the study guides on the disk with our booklet. And while I was in class, I listened. I didn't sit in here gossiping with anyone who would listen or text my friends or sit and paint my fingernails.
Her: *opens her mouth to say something then snaps it shut with a huff and turned around*

Don't get me wrong, not all students are like this and perhaps as Fizzy says it's a minority but I wouldn't know, he would.

All I know is that it is pretty bad when you get an email from your professor telling everyone in the class that she will fail papers that use text-ease in spelling.

Its quite the eyeopener. What a person gets out of their education really is proportionate to the amount of effort they put into learning.

 

[Deleted member 42]

Do colleges have things like minumum SAT scores for entrance? Do they publish average SAT scores of freshmen? I'd think that would be useful info.

Yeah, they do, though admissions boards can recommend exceptions--say, for someone who for whatever reason looks like he or she can't take tests, or who has an outstanding skill at art, or music, or sports.

But.

The standardized scores are in some ways the least important criteria--they're a first stage filter.

And honestly, they mostly indicate how well people take standardized tests.

N.B. I suck at 'em so I'm all biased and stuff.

 

[BarbaraKE]

I'm sure everyone would agree that there are some extremely stupid (insert age group).

What bothers me is the constant criticism I seem to hear from people my age about the 'younger generation'.

I have two sons - one is second-year college, the other a senior in high school. The kids I know in those age groups (i.e. their friends) are the nicest people you'd ever meet. They have part-time jobs, are involved in clubs, get good grades, etc. A fine, young group of people.

Granted, this is not a representative sample but neither are the writing examples posted above.

I hate it when people dump on an entire group of people just because they're young/old/black/white/whatever.

 

[Cybernaught]

Guess what? Since I've heard his story, which may be more myth than fact, I've never handed in a research assignment without making sure my Works Cited page was absolutely perfect.

Extreme to you perhaps, but certainly beneficial.

 

[C.bronco]

I teach college level writing, and I would like to point out that our colleges have many students for whom English is a second language. They are very bright and capable, but haven't completely mastered our grammar or our many idioms.

Even so, the "Bach and the spinster in his attic" line really cracked me up!

 

[Mr Flibble]

english is also taught wrong. they are just now, just now in my senior year, getting around to teaching syntax. were going to be as bad as the brits before too long (no offense brits)

As bad as the Brits? Er in what way? *confused*

 

[mscelina]

As bad as the Brits? Er in what way? *confused*

You know, I'd just ignore that whole post, Idiots. This youngster is in his senior year of high school and is just learning syntax?

Probably thinks that because UK grammar/spelling is occasionally different from that taught in the States that it must be 'wrong' somehow.

 

[Revelationz]

Speaking as an American, it does seem most people can't write a coherent sentence, let alone a paper. I've had to review the work of fellow students in both high school and college. In high school, dear Lord, it was torture. Sentence structure, parts of speech, capitalization, punctuation.... just butchered, man. Just butchered. Whenever someone asked me how well they wrote their paper, it reminded me of that scene in Rambo where that guy got his legs blown off and Rambo had to console him....

"I just wanna go home. I just wanna go home and drive my car."

"You got no legs, man! You ain't got no legs!"

But, you can't tell them that they have no legs, figuratively speaking, of course. You can't tell them that they are to the English language what Hitler was to the world.

In college, things got better, but you still had those butchers. I've even met very educated people who have had trouble putting together a decent paper. I'm not going to front and say I'm the grandmaster pimpdaddy of the written word. Anyone who's read my storytelling knows I need work in that department. But, I can write clearly when dishing out facts and opinions. It seems I'm at my best when I'm preachy

Anways, I feel you guys. But, there are some college folk out there who would put us to shame. I think that in both high school and college there needs to be more sentence diagram exercises. Doing those really helped me a lot. Too bad the only time I did them was my senior year of high school.

 

[Deleted member 42]

You know, I'd just ignore that whole post, Idiots. This youngster is in his senior year of high school and is just learning syntax?

Probably thinks that because UK grammar/spelling is occasionally different from that taught in the States that it must be 'wrong' somehow.

The post in question speaks volumes, and in a variety of tongues.

 

[mscelina]

Agreed. I was trying to think of a way to say that tactfully and gave it up as a bad job.

 

[Deleted member 42]

Let me put it this way:

If you're going to be critical about an entire population's writing ability, then it behooves you to make sure yours is beyond reproach.

At the very least, you need to produce better copy than a dyslexic with an IQ of 42 who can't spell.

 

[mscelina]

Yes, but that IQ of 42 is extremely misleading, is it not?

Another point some would do well to remember--that with determination, hard work and application, any obstacle can be overcome or, at the very least, superseded. For every particle of blame thrown upon the educational system, an equal and distinct particle of blame must accrue to the individual. We have countless opportunities to educate ourselves daily. If one doesn't use them, well, they have very little justification in blaming another entity for their shortcomings.

*stolen from mscelina's harsh but realistic view on life*

 

[Deleted member 42]

As bad as the Brits? Er in what way? *confused*

you guys like you know use punctuation and sentence case and spell honor and flavor funny and stuff like that.