Minutemen gone wrong

[MacAllister]

A classic example of why vigilantism is a bad idea:

Cash was what led Forde, Bush and Gaxiola to Raul Flores' house on May 30, 2009, said Dawn Barkman, a spokeswoman for the Pima County Sheriff. Flores had a reputation for involvement in the narcotics trade along the border, Barkman said, and Forde devised a plan to bluff her way into his home and rob and kill him to finance her border patrol group.


According to Barkman, it was Forde's plan but Bush allegedly fired the fatal shots inside the Flores home. It was not Bush's first slaying, police say.
After his arrest in the shooting of Raul Flores, police in Wenatchee, Washington, charged Bush with the fatal stabbing of Hector Manuel Lopez Partida. Homeless and traveling through Wenatchee, Lopez Partida was killed in 1997, stabbed seven times, apparently as he slept on the ground next to a grain silo.


Police in Wenatchee found a blood-soaked shirt near where Lopez was killed. Eight years later, advances in forensics testing indicated that Bush's DNA was on the shirt, a police affidavit said.
Bush has "long-standing ties to Aryan Nations groups," the affidavit said, and he allegedly bragged to an unidentified police informant about killing "a Mexican," saying he and another man "stomped" and "stabbed" the man and "left [him] to bleed out."

 

[rugcat]

These people are scum of the earth.

CNN played the 911 tape, which i thought was pretty scummy as well. It served no purpose except to titillate the viewing public -- you can hear the woman sobbing, saying "I can't believe this is happening." I didn't hear the whole tape; I turned off the channel halfway through.

Imo, this kind of voyeuristic pimping out of a woman's horror, in the name of "news" is disgusting.

 

[dgiharris]

Eventually, Forde's tactics alienated even the most stalwart proponents of border security. "The screaming, hollering, calling names, we don't do that," said outgoing Washington state Minutemen president Joseph Ray. "She broke standard operating procedure too many times, she was too damn unreliable."

The Minutemen kicked Forde out of their ranks in 2007, Ray said. Around the same time, police said, Forde became embroiled in several bizarre incidents that remain under investigation in Everett.

Every group has its nuts. There are a lot of 'hate groups' out there and serving as their own defacto border patrol gives them a nice cause in which to vent their pent up conspiracy theory related energy.

For the most part, I do applaud the MinuteMen and consider them patriots. I think they get a bad wrap from the media and people who do not understand how big a problem the border really is. They have a great set of guidelines and are very professional.

However, they lack the organizational authority vital to screen out the nutjobs. 99% of them are decent people, but it only takes that 1% nutball to fuck everything up. And these Vigilantees definitely fit the bill.

It is a shame this happened and I hope this doesn't hurt the MinuteMen too much.

...CNN played the 911 tape, which i thought was pretty scummy as well. It served no purpose except to titillate the viewing public -- you can hear the woman sobbing, saying "I can't believe this is happening." I didn't hear the whole tape; I turned off the channel halfway through.

Imo, this kind of voyeuristic pimping out of a woman's horror, in the name of "news" is disgusting.

You know, we should create The Ghoul Award. It should be a monthly award given to the media outlet that does the best job of pimping and milking human tragedy for ratings.

I remember a case where this sicko raped and killed a preteen. He was on the loose and the media was only too quick to find the mother and say, "How do you feel that your daughter's killer is on the loose?"

This reporter hounded the mother and kept going on and on about the rape and murder until the mother broke down into a fit of tears. I swear I wanted reach into the TV, grab the reporter by the scruff of her neck, and beat some sense into her.

When did the news become a pack of ghoulish rating whores willing to sell their souls for 'good tv'???

Mel...

 

[aquacat]

For the most part, I do applaud the MinuteMen and consider them patriots. I think they get a bad wrap from the media and people who do not understand how big a problem the border really is. They have a great set of guidelines and are very professional.

Huh. Well, as someone who grew up on the border, I think the Minutemen are fascist assholes who have no business owning guns, let alone "patrolling" the desert. I used to have a neighbor who was involved in the Minutemen. He also collected Nazi memorabilia. The kind of mentality that inspires the Minutemen is, in my experience, little different than the mentality that inspires the KKK. I don't know why you think 99% of them are decent people...personally, I don't think spending your time hunting human beings in the desert makes one a decent person. I'm sure some of them think they have good intentions, but it's an awfully fine line when you get involved in any kind of vigilante activity.

And I fail to see how someone who's attempting to stop people from getting into the "great melting pot" that is America qualifies as a patriot. I've lived among illegal immigrants for most of my life, and the only "problem" I've ever seen with the border is the violence perpetrated on immigrants by self righteous bigots who are disenfranchised from the system, have no legitimate place to turn their anger and so aim their hostility at the only target they can find that has even less resources and support. Immigration issues in America are about far more than illegal Mexican immigration, but isn't it funny how that border is the one that inspires the most violence and hateful rhetoric?

 

[dgiharris]

Huh. Well, as someone who grew up on the border, I think the Minutemen are fascist assholes who have no business owning guns, let alone "patrolling" the desert. I used to have a neighbor who was involved in the Minutemen. He also collected Nazi memorabilia. The kind of mentality that inspires the Minutemen is, in my experience, little different than the mentality that inspires the KKK. I don't know why you think 99% of them are decent people...personally, I don't think spending your time hunting human beings in the desert makes one a decent person.

I've also lived along the border. Sorry your neighbor was a neonazi. That falls into the bad element I was talking about. Maybe my 99% metric was a bit off.

The reason I like the MinuteMan is because they are the only ones with the balls to at least acknowledge the 800 lb Gorilla in the room and do something about it. That is what a patriot does, they try to do what is best for their country. There is a consequence to illegal immigration

http://www.alipac.us/article281.html

In California, something like 80 hospitals have gone bankrupct and CLOSED due to illegal immigrants overwhelming our system. I know, we like to bury our heads in the sand and think of the few nice illegals we do know as the 'face' of the illegal immigration problem. But truth is, it's not that simple and there are real consequences to this problem that we refuse to acknowledge.

We are a nation of 300M people. It is estimated that there are 20M illegal immigrants in this country. Just do the math, our system cannot support them. I wish we could, but we can't and we taxpayers are the ones paying for it.

But politicians refuse to adequately deal with the problem as it is political suicide to due to the hispanic voting block.

How many hospitals and schools need to close before we do something about this problem?

I am all for immigration, provided it is legal. I mean, aren't we a nation of laws?

Mel...

 

[Zoombie]

I just say, make it really easy to immigrate, but I might not understand the complex intricasies of immigration...

 

[aquacat]

I've also lived along the border. Sorry your neighbor was a neonazi. That falls into the bad element I was talking about. Maybe my 99% metric was a bit off.

The reason I like the MinuteMan is because they are the only ones with the balls to at least acknowledge the 800 lb Gorilla in the room and do something about it. That is what a patriot does, they try to do what is best for their country. There is a consequence to illegal immigration

http://www.alipac.us/article281.html

In California, something like 80 hospitals have gone bankrupct and CLOSED due to illegal immigrants overwhelming our system. I know, we like to bury our heads in the sand and think of the few nice illegals we do know as the 'face' of the illegal immigration problem. But truth is, it's not that simple and there are real consequences to this problem that we refuse to acknowledge.

We are a nation of 300M people. It is estimated that there are 20M illegal immigrants in this country. Just do the math, our system cannot support them. I wish we could, but we can't and we taxpayers are the ones paying for it.

But politicians refuse to adequately deal with the problem as it is political suicide to due to the hispanic voting block.

How many hospitals and schools need to close before we do something about this problem?

I am all for immigration, provided it is legal. I mean, aren't we a nation of laws?

Mel...

For one, there's a lot of evidence that the population of illegal immigrants helps us far more than it hurts us. Yes, I know there's evidence on both sides. But the point is, illegal immigration has long supported and contributed to our economy in significant and sometimes hard to understand ways - our agriculture industry, particularly in California, would go under without them, for example. See here for just one article. That's not to say that there aren't losses and consequences, but it's not just a simple cost outweighs benefits kind of issue.


For two, to suggest that hospitals in Cali are closing only because of illegal immigrants, and not because of decades of financial mismanagement by the state government, is a bit ridiculous. The state has been teetering on a knife point since before I was born. And the huge number of uninsured California residents who create financial issues for public hospitals is not just composed of immigrants. There are plenty of American citizens without heath insurance, and as far as I'm aware there's not much substantial evidence that uninsured immigrants are using public health resources more than uninsured citizens - in fact, I'd be willing to bet it's the opposite. It's a bit of a clusterfuck of issues, but it's easiest to single out illegal immigrants because...well, because we can't ship citizens off to Mexico for the crime of being poor.

And for three, immigration is a complicated business. I'd be all for supporting only legal immigration, too, if a Mexican immigrant had the same chance of gaining a foothold as a British immigrant. But the system is corrupt, classist and racist at its core, a fact which is highlighted by our rage at Mexican immigrants and our embrace of immigrants from almost everywhere else. And I'm sorry, but I don't support laws that create de facto limitations on immigration which privilege only those who can pay and will go right into white collar work - that, to me, is unAmerican. If anything we should focus on making our immigration laws more fair.

If we also spent more time challenging the processes of globalization and unrestrained "free trade" that contribute to and perpetuate slave-like working conditions in Mexico and other third world nations, we might not have such high rates of immigration across that particular border. I know that's not an immediate or total fix, but it's more humane and, for me, more patriotic than using poor workers as target practice.

 

[Dommo]

The primary factor in determining who immigrates from where, aquacat is the economic value of the person to the USA. If we're going to allow people into the country, and there's a larger demand then supply, then we've go the right to be picky. It's in our nation's interest to skim off all of the best scientists, rich people, academics, etc, from other countries.

Think about it. Who made our A-bombs, who initially came up with our rocket technology, etc.? A large portion of them were from outside of the USA, and the majority were well educated. It's a form of economic warfare that's of absolute importance to the future of this country, because what we lack in numbers, we're currently able to make up for in opportunity and cash. This gives us a competitive advantage over everyone else because we can get first dibs on the best and brightest.

 

[MacAllister]

Think about it. Who made our A-bombs, who initially came up with our rocket technology, etc.? A large portion of them were from outside of the USA, and the majority were well educated. It's a form of economic warfare that's of absolute importance to the future of this country...

Former Nazi scientists, largely. I'm not a fan of Utilitarian ethics, so that argument isn't very persuasive, for me.

 

[Dommo]

Yeah but you can't argue with the results Mac.

 

[MacAllister]

Oh, they got results. My quibble is that I don't believe the ends justify the means. And in the case of better bombs, rockets, etc, for the sake of the arms race? I really don't think the ends justified the means--I think the ends themselves were immoral, and we'll never know how very different the world might be if the involved countries had instead managed to negotiate peaceful resolutions and concentrate all that energy and brain power on things like hunger and disease...

And then little birds and friendly forest creatures would be helping us hang out our laundry, and we wouldn't have global warming or be driving Hummers, either.

 

[AMCrenshaw]

Who made our A-bombs

Yeah but you can't argue with the results Mac.

I could, but I couldn't, because, of course, the A-Bomb is a miracle of deliverance!


AMC

 

[aquacat]

The primary factor in determining who immigrates from where, aquacat is the economic value of the person to the USA. If we're going to allow people into the country, and there's a larger demand then supply, then we've go the right to be picky. It's in our nation's interest to skim off all of the best scientists, rich people, academics, etc, from other countries.

Think about it. Who made our A-bombs, who initially came up with our rocket technology, etc.? A large portion of them were from outside of the USA, and the majority were well educated. It's a form of economic warfare that's of absolute importance to the future of this country, because what we lack in numbers, we're currently able to make up for in opportunity and cash. This gives us a competitive advantage over everyone else because we can get first dibs on the best and brightest.

Um, yeah, I know. That's my point. We simultaneously sell the idea that America is a refuge for the needy of the world while also discriminating wildly. That's always been true. I'm aware of that.

It's also always been unjust, and continues to be so now. I don't think you can possibly make a convincingly ethical argument that people are only worth their utilitarian value to the US economy. If that's the world you want to live in, fine. It's not the one I want to live in, and I don't accept that historical precedent legitimates hateful, discriminatory behavior.

 

[AMCrenshaw]

It's also always been unjust, and continues to be so now. I don't think you can possibly make a convincingly ethical argument that people are only worth their utilitarian value to the US economy.

Not even a pragmatic argument IMO. The U.S. is a cultural melting pot, not an evolutionary breeding ground.


AMC

 

[Dommo]

I never said it was right, but I will make the argument that it's necessary. Essentially if we don't take the top dogs who're throwing themselves at us, we're giving them away to our competition, and someday that could cost us far more than we can imagine.

We've got a knowledge based economy, and this is largely why the illegal immigrant situation is rearing it's head. Those in our society who're uneducated, are in a lot worse shape than they were 30 years ago. Back in those days it was possible to go straight from high school, and make a good living with your labor alone. That's not the case anymore, as factories and other sources of low-skill employment have moved abroad, or become automated. The bit that remains is in effect up for grabs between illegal aliens, and good sized chunk of unskilled US population. For the illegal aliens, they benefit even from substandard wages, because it allows them to provide for their families back in their home countries, however for the remaining US folks after some of those jobs, the wages have been severely depressed. Take construction for example, that's a business that I see just crawling with illegals/corrupt companies, and I've seen how bad it's hurting my part of the country. Where I'm from(the upper peninsula of michigan) we've got 20% unemployment rates, and even so far from the south, a lot of construction work is done by immigrant labor at wages that just can't support an American household.

 

[MacAllister]

We've got a knowledge based economy, and this is largely why the illegal immigrant situation is rearing it's head.

Wait a minute - define "knowledge based economy" -- because the nation's largest employer is the US Government.

The nation's largest private employer is W@l-Mart.

So how does it follow that we have a knowledge-based economy? And from there, how does it follow that that's why there's a problem with illegal labor? You lost me, there, in the transitions.

 

[Dommo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_economy

In the case of the USA, the majority of the wealth of nation is generated specifically from knowledge, be it intellectual property, patents, technological understanding, scientific insight, etc. Think about it. Things might be built in china, but I know for a fact(having personally worked with engineers involved in the auto industry, who periodically travel to china to do business), that most are designed domestically. Essentially the unskilled labor pool is of little consequence to our society, at least at the economic level, because it's easily interchanged with any number of workers from other countries for good or bad(good for business/wealth generation, but at a personal level the impact it's had on the lower rungs of the social ladder has been brutal).

It's the unskilled portion of labor pool that's getting hit the worst from the illegal immigrant population because they are able to undercut the typical unskilled american worker. The increased number of workers in the labor pool, combined with a recession, high unemployment rates, and massive levels of automation, is putting a lot of strain on the people who make a living through their labor, as opposed to through their "minds/knowledge". Think of it like this. We have to import engineers, we have to import scientists, we have to import doctors, but we export factory jobs and jobs that require simple physical labor. I know for a fact that we certainly don't export that much "physical" stuff, because we're at a trade deficit with just about everyone, but what we do have is the world's largest surplus in knowledge, and the most opportunity. That's what we export, and that's why we're importing the educated over everyone else.

Don't get me wrong, I think the situation sucks for illegals, as they're caught in a position where they're vulnerable to exploitation by corrupt assholes, and the economic situation is so bad for them in their native countries that they don't have a choice but to do what they're doing. The main reason the illegals are coming here is because it's the best choice in a list of shitty options, and not because they're trying to intentionally harm anyone. I personally think the best way for us to fix this problem is try to develop economic growth in other countries. What bugs me about this whole debate the most, is when people think illegals are here to hurt us, as opposed to being here in order to survive.

 

[Diana Hignutt]

When did the news become a pack of ghoulish rating whores willing to sell their souls for 'good tv'???

Mel...

It started getting really bad about 15-20 years ago, and I'm amazed at the depths they'll stoop to nowadays.

 

[dclary]

I would be more inclined to be against vigilantism if our law enforcement and justice system worked.

At all.

But they don't. Corrupt. Incompetent. Asshole-ridden.

I very, very much appreciate that *someone* is trying to do something out there. Because it sure as fuck isn't the cops.

 

[rugcat]

I would be more inclined to be against vigilantism if our law enforcement and justice system worked.

At all.

But they don't. Corrupt. Incompetent. Asshole-ridden.

I very, very much appreciate that *someone* is trying to do something out there. Because it sure as fuck isn't the cops.

That is pretty much the rationale of every vigilante.

 

[Kaiser-Kun]

The MinuteMen are one of those things that sound good in theory: citizens trying to help the government with a very complicated problem.

But many, many, waaay too many things can go wrong when there are armed people trying to catch other people. It's just too easy for things to get heated when you've got a gun and bigot ideas, even more if you've been sold the idea that mexicans are inferior and that nobody's going to find out you committed a murder.

Racists are like that because they're too stupid to vent their hate in other way. The MinuteMen should make selective exams to pick out the non-bigots from their ranks their priority, because arming a racist and telling him to go look for mexicans is sending them to hunt. One racist who commits a hate crime is too many for an organization who wants to impose order in the relationship with another country, and as such, should be an example of discipline and responsability.

 

[dclary]

That is pretty much the rationale of every vigilante.

Fine by me. I'd be one too, if given the right circumstances.

 

[Kaiser-Kun]

Fine by me. I'd be one too, if given the right circumstances.

What would you do if during patrol, you see an illegal inmigrant and he starts to run?

 

[firedrake]

The primary factor in determining who immigrates from where, aquacat is the economic value of the person to the USA. If we're going to allow people into the country, and there's a larger demand then supply, then we've go the right to be picky. It's in our nation's interest to skim off all of the best scientists, rich people, academics, etc, from other countries.

Think about it. Who made our A-bombs, who initially came up with our rocket technology, etc.? A large portion of them were from outside of the USA, and the majority were well educated. It's a form of economic warfare that's of absolute importance to the future of this country, because what we lack in numbers, we're currently able to make up for in opportunity and cash. This gives us a competitive advantage over everyone else because we can get first dibs on the best and brightest.

Someone needs to tell the USCIS this.

I came over here on an employer-sponsored temporary visa. Had petition approved for employer-sponsored Green Card.
Adjustment of status application from temporary to permanent residency status has been denied. Don't know why yet.
In the same time period (7 years), neighbor across street went from illegal to US Citizen. She is now busy trying to get permanent status for her mother who is here illegally.

Go figure.

 

[William Haskins]

nature abhors a vacuum, and the minutemen are the result of an ineffective government. factor in the general political laziness of the american people, and it's not surprising that, in order to man the border, the minutemen ended up with a lot of hardcore nationalists in their ranks.

i condemn the actions of these rogue elements, but i also condemn our nation's atrocious handling of illegal immigration. we simply cannot sustain an increasing population of poverty stricken and often uneducated migrants.

i have, however, come up with a solution. for every illegal immigrant, let's find a good progressive american who believes they should be here and receive taxpayer-funded benefits, from food stamps to emergency care to other forms of public assistance.

each good progressive can adopt an illegal immigrant and subsidize their existence to whatever extent the state would otherwise do so. they can then be granted legal residence for as long as their host chooses to subsidize them or until they are net contributors to our society.