Gunshot wounds

[Jazz Club]

Bear with me if any of this is silly; I know nothing about guns. I have a couple of related questions.

1) I'm aware that in some countries like the US, Canada and the UK, doctors are supposed to report any gunshot injuries to the police. But I'm wondering, if the injured party doesn't want to tell the police what happened, can they get in any trouble?

I googled, but all I could find was academic papers talking about the ethical issues for doctors of mandated reporting, would it put victims off seeking medical treatment (presumably!), etc. I couldn't find anything from the cop end (possibly intentional).

2) I know gunshots wounds in some movies are laughably unrealistic, like someone gets shot in the arm, yells out 'no worries, it's just a flesh wound!', bandages it with a strip of his shirt and walks it off by the end of the scene. I don't want to fall into that trap in my book, but I want my female MC to get shot not too seriously and have it be realistic.

I know that in real life it's often dangerous no matter where you're shot, and even arm and legs wounds can lead to long term complications, even disabilities. So should I just have the bullet graze her? Or even then, is that always really serious? I also want the cops to be sniffing around and it has to be obvious to them it's a bullet wound.

Out of my depth.

 

[Brigid Barry]

An added complication here is what were they shot with. What type of gun and what type of ammunition makes a HUGE difference in the injury. How close or how far away? Were they shot through something (wall, furniture)? Also where were they shot.

My understanding is that the right to remain silent is a fundamental civil liberty that you aren't supposed to be punished for (paraphraasing from the ACLU blurb from my Google search), vs lying to the police, which is a criminal offense (misdemeanor, I think).

 

[Catriona Grace]

I'll ask my daughter, a law enforcement veteran, about the legalities of concealing a shooter, and will let you know what she says.

 

[CMBright]

I am aware of a suicide with a small caliber firearm. The fellow shot himself directly in the chest. It wasn't fatal. He managed to shoot himself a second time, one or both (or blood loss) did the job, I didn't ask.

I don't know if he yelled from the pain, but spouse heard the shots as if they were fireworks somewhere in the neighborhood. No, I'm not asking my spouse, that incident was over a decade ago. If it's been forgotten, good. The details are from my memory of the police questioning us since we lived next door. I was at a book store when it occurred, Spouse was home. Neither of us knew anything had happened until the body was found. I'm not certain either of us knew until an officer showed up with a checklist of questions to ask us.

As Brigid mentioned, the caliber matters. I'd imagine a flesh wound that doesn't do more damage than a cut could be shrugged off, a deeper injury such as a through and through would be significantly more painful hitting a limb. Which is speculation.

 

[Gramps]

Typically, personal defense ammo is designed to mushroom and cause extensive internal soft-tissue damage vs, practice ammo designed to punch paper.
Rifle ammo is higher vollosity and may or may not be of higher bullet weight. It must be assumed these days that if someone is being shot, it will be with bullets designed for maximum internal damage. Even certain shotgun ammo is designed with the above mentioned design, birdshot ammo being the exception.
Do people get stitched up by non-reputable Dr. or non-medically trained individuals? I'm betting it is a daily occurance.

Brigid Barry's comments above apply as well.

Gramps

 

[Jazz Club]

I'll ask my daughter, a law enforcement veteran, about the legalities of concealing a shooter, and will let you know what she says.

Thank you, I appreciate that!

I don't know if he yelled from the pain, but spouse heard the shots as if they were fireworks somewhere in the neighborhood. No, I'm not asking my spouse, that incident was over a decade ago. If it's been forgotten, good. The details are from my memory of the police questioning us since we lived next door. I was at a book store when it occurred, Spouse was home. Neither of us knew anything had happened until the body was found. I'm not certain either of us knew until an officer showed up with a checklist of questions to ask us.

I certainly don't want you to ask about it. I don't want anyone upset; it isn't that important.

Typically, personal defense ammo is designed to mushroom and cause extensive internal soft-tissue damage vs, practice ammo designed to punch paper.
Rifle ammo is higher vollosity and may or may not be of higher bullet weight. It must be assumed these days that if someone is being shot, it will be with bullets designed for maximum internal damage. Even certain shotgun ammo is designed with the above mentioned design, birdshot ammo being the exception.

Good point. I could have it be small calibre, but even then, it's probably designed to create damage.

Do people get stitched up by non-reputable Dr. or non-medically trained individuals? I'm betting it is a daily occurance.

For sure. There was a running joke in Trailer Park Boys that they always went to the struck-off veterinarian, can't remember his name now.

 

[dickson]

An added complication here is what were they shot with. What type of gun and what type of ammunition makes a HUGE difference in the injury. How close or how far away? Were they shot through something (wall, furniture)? Also where were they shot.

One night when I was about fifteen I chanced to see a middle-aged woman brought into the ER at the local hospital where my father worked. She had a small caliber gunshot wound to the face, probably a .22 short. While she was in pain, her wound was evidently not serious, as gunshot injuries go. She was alert. What I remember—vividly—was the massive bruising all over her face. Black-and-blue, in places. That’s something I’ve never seen in the movies.

 

[Yzjdriel]

In the US, hospitals are required to report all GSWs to law enforcement because if a patient has one, they got it in at least one of the following ways:

- Patient was shot by someone who was committing a crime (police need to find the person who shot them)
- Patient was shot by someone while they were committing a crime (police need to find them)
- Patient shot themselves intentionally (they need to be put on psychiatric hold, and the court may need to become involved)
- There was an accident (police need to talk to them to confirm it wasn't any of the other three - among other things, negligence leading to an accident is a crime)

Police mostly care about those first two, because if someone was out there shooting people, the police will want to question the victims so they can find that person; meanwhile, if the patient was shot while committing a crime, then they were either shot by someone defending themselves or by the police, and the police will obviously want a word with them.

 

[Catriona Grace]

From daughter the former cop:

If someone has been shot and there are no other witnesses and no other victims, the officer would interview the victim, file the case with a notice of "uncooperative victim," and be done with it. The officer could charge the victim with obstruction, but daughter says no DA would take the case. If other victims are involved and a wtiness/victim refuses to identify the shooter, an obstruction charge is more likely to stick.

Hope that helps.

 

[cmhbob]

There's some good basic info here, but the overriding question is: what do you need to have happen for your story?

 

[CMBright]

I didn't notice, is this set in our real world or a fictional nation/world? If the second, the physics of the injury might be the same, but the laws can be any laws you need them to be for plot reasons.

 

[Unimportant]

Bear with me if any of this is silly; I know nothing about guns. I have a couple of related questions.

1) I'm aware that in some countries like the US, Canada and the UK, doctors are supposed to report any gunshot injuries to the police. But I'm wondering, if the injured party doesn't want to tell the police what happened, can they get in any trouble?

I googled, but all I could find was academic papers talking about the ethical issues for doctors of mandated reporting, would it put victims off seeking medical treatment (presumably!), etc. I couldn't find anything from the cop end (possibly intentional).

2) I know gunshots wounds in some movies are laughably unrealistic, like someone gets shot in the arm, yells out 'no worries, it's just a flesh wound!', bandages it with a strip of his shirt and walks it off by the end of the scene. I don't want to fall into that trap in my book, but I want my female MC to get shot not too seriously and have it be realistic.

I know that in real life it's often dangerous no matter where you're shot, and even arm and legs wounds can lead to long term complications, even disabilities. So should I just have the bullet graze her? Or even then, is that always really serious? I also want the cops to be sniffing around and it has to be obvious to them it's a bullet wound.

Out of my depth.

I expect the laws vary from country to country and, within the USA, from state to state.

The damage will really, really depend on the weapon/ammo used. A BB gun will, unless you're dead unlucky, end up with you having several pellets lodged in your arse that have to be picked out like shrapnel. A deer-hunting rifle even at not-very-close-range can take out your entire digestive system -- or your brain and skull -- in one go. And most people with handguns are wildly inaccurate -- run in a zigzag pattern like a rabbit, and they usually miss you.

You can create a plausible scenario for any injury type you want, given the range of guns and ammo and shooters out there; you'll just need to pick the right gun and ammo and shooter and victim.

 

[InkFinger]

A few quick observations:

1. There are a ton of combat veterans out there, some quite old now, who can tell you firsthand what it's like to be shot. My father-in-law once talked with me about it. He had been shot twice on separate occasions, both in combat. He described the sensation as feeling like he got bitten followed by wooziness. He said it burned horribly, and then the pain set in after the adrenaline wore off. These shots would have been with common caliber ammunition for the Korean war - .30 caliber and taken at some distance.
2. The basic velocity and pressure data is readily available on the internet and on any box of ammunition. It will feel like being hit by something between a baseball bat and a Mack truck depending on caliber, weight, load, and distance. I think the "I got bit." reaction is shock. Grandad's version of this reaction, he was shot through the meat of his thigh a half-inch from his testicles. High enough, he would not show me that scar.
3. YouTube is a great resource for basic knowledge. There is a virtual library of information. Try these guys - they do their work with ballistics dummies.
   2. If you go to their site, they have a ton of experiments with caliber and distance.

 

[InkFinger]

A few quick observations:

1. There are a ton of combat veterans out there, some quite old now, who can tell you firsthand what it's like to be shot.

One more note on this... don't be a jerk about it. Some combat vets don't want to talk about it. If they say 'no,' find someone else. My grandfathers would not talk about it and both had been shot.

 

[Jazz Club]

One more note on this... don't be a jerk about it. Some combat vets don't want to talk about it. If they say 'no,' find someone else. My grandfathers would not talk about it and both had been shot.

I'm definitely not going to ask anyone in real life in case it upsets them. Also I don't think I know anyone. It's mostly kneecappings here anyway, not what I need for this.

All that information is very useful, thank you so much. I'll check out youtube.

I didn't notice, is this set in our real world or a fictional nation/world? If the second, the physics of the injury might be the same, but the laws can be any laws you need them to be for plot reasons.

Yeah fake country, so I just need to follow the laws of physics, though I'd like the laws to be similar-ish to the US/UK. Also, the more I learn about real laws, the more I can make my fake laws seem plausible.

There's some good basic info here, but the overriding question is: what do you need to have happen for your story?

I'd like her to be shot enough that there's a dash for the hospital, because obviously the kid characters aren't medical experts and are panicking, so her friends bring her to the hospital, but when she gets there it isn't too serious. There's no point in calling an ambulance because they're in the middle of nowhere and have a car so they can get there faster themselves.

Maybe a graze somewhere that would cause a lot of blood and confusion but isn't life-threatening. I also want the cops to ask about it later, but she refuses to cooperate, at Catriona Grace suggested. It's part of the rescue of the male MC. As she's rescuing him she'll get hurt which loads more guilt onto him (he already has a lot about a lot of things).

 

[Jazz Club]

If someone has been shot and there are no other witnesses and no other victims, the officer would interview the victim, file the case with a notice of "uncooperative victim," and be done with it. The officer could charge the victim with obstruction, but daughter says no DA would take the case. If other victims are involved and a wtiness/victim refuses to identify the shooter, an obstruction charge is more likely to stick.

Hope that helps.

It really does. Thank you.

 

[InkFinger]

There will be people willing to talk to you if you go there. Research is part of the process.

 

[Unimportant]

Possibly useful, via Google: this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this.

 

[Jazz Club]

Possibly useful, via Google: this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this.

Thanks. Heathline is great. It's where I've learned most of my pretty inadequate medical knowledge so far!

 

[cmhbob]

I'd like her to be shot enough that there's a dash for the hospital, because obviously the kid characters aren't medical experts and are panicking,

Head wounds bleed a LOT, and it doesn't have to be a penetrating wound to do so. A grazing injury could still be deep enough to expose bone, and she'd bleed like a stuck pig, honestly. That would be terrifying to kids, but wouldn't be all that serious beyond a lot of bandaging and a bunch of imaging done to make sure there were no skull injuries. Keep her overnight to watch for a concussion. So you'd get a bloody mess, and scared kids, but not a lot of long-term disability unless she gets clocked in the head again.

 

[Unimportant]

Head wounds bleed a LOT

Truth!!! Speaking from experience.

 

[Brigid Barry]

It's also plausible that someone shooting her throws her into shock that is worse than the wound itself. Panic attack, etc. It's not hard to freak kids out!

 

[Unimportant]

Scathingly brilliant idea: you tell me what you want to analyse, and I will happily put a bullet in my coworker and report back. (Please want her to be dead, please want her to be dead, please want her to be dead....)

 

[Al X.]

Talk to a deer hunter. Deer are roughly human sized mammals, commonly hunted with small caliber rifles and large caliber handguns.

Side note on that. Back in the early 1960's, in a bid to replace the heavy and expensive M14 service rifle, Eugene Stoner and the Armalite company developed the AR10 rifle, as a direct replacement to the M14 using the same 7.62 mm NATO round. But, Stoner quickly realized that the 7.62 mm NATO round was overkill for an assault rifle, and developed the AR15 rifle, chambered in .223 Remington, which is generally considered a minimum rifle caliber adequate for deer. That became adopted as the M16, and the round designated the 5.56mm NATO. Lighter ammo = lighter rifle = more ammo available to carry. The Russians thought that was such a great idea that they then developed the AK74 chambered in a ballistically similar 5.45mm round, which replaced the 7.62x39mm AKM as their service rifle.

 

[Jazz Club]

Scathingly brilliant idea: you tell me what you want to analyse, and I will happily put a bullet in my coworker and report back. (Please want her to be dead, please want her to be dead, please want her to be dead....)

Sorry, I need her for the sequel.