I just watched a very long presentation (about 1 1/2 hours) that introduced Google Wave. I think I may have to re-imagine the communications technology in my novel.
Google Wave
- Thread starter Roger J Carlson
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Liosse de Velishaf
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John Scalzi has a post on his Whatever blog about it. It's basically a wiki-chatroom from what I could gather. Scalzi was not overly impressed with its current form.
They get points for the apparent Firefly reference, though.
They get points for the apparent Firefly reference, though.
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I like the automated translation across 40 languages feature. Right now, Google Wave isn't quite there, i don't think, but once they do get it right it'll be awesome.
Liosse de Velishaf
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Count me among the skeptics when it comes to translation programs. The only people who believe in them speak only one language. I don't think most programmers have the beginning of a clue how complex translation really is.
My brother and I have arguments about this: computer geek against language geek.
When the programs get good enough to produce something intelligible, that's when they'll be really dangerous, because people will start trusting them. I think we need to see a quantum shift in AI before a genuinely useful translation program will be feasible.
My brother and I have arguments about this: computer geek against language geek.
When the programs get good enough to produce something intelligible, that's when they'll be really dangerous, because people will start trusting them. I think we need to see a quantum shift in AI before a genuinely useful translation program will be feasible.
Liosse de Velishaf
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Shoot, people who speak two languages still have no idea. Try explaining to an Italian professor how transformational rules in English make it hard for people to understand how verbs requiring indirect objects translate over.
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I speak three. And smatterings of a few others. But I do get it. I've done some translating, as well as teaching ESL. Which means I have spent incredible amounts of time trying to explain to students how the present perfect tense in English is vastly different from the composite past tenses in other languages in spite of the fact it's formed using the same rules. It is the single most difficult thing for foreigners learning English to master, because it is so unique. There aren't many languages that have a tense that's a hybrid of the present and the past. We spent more time on that in intermediate ESL classes than on any other point. And the translation programs don't ever get it, that I've seen. They crank out garbage like "I have gone yesterday". The fact that tenses have to be translated differently depending on context, let alone vocabulary that has to be translated differently still seems to be way beyond their capabilities.
Not a Chomsky fan, sorry.
I got taught by a bunch of functionalists.
Not a Chomsky fan, sorry.
I got taught by a bunch of functionalists.
I haven't checked Wave out yet... my cousin is raving about it, though... he does... um... I dunno what it's called, I'm not cool enough. It's electronic music. Like taking other tracks and combining them and stuff with a big board. Anyway I think it helps him with that somehow?
Wow I sound dumb.
::Goes off to watch presentation::
Wow I sound dumb.
::Goes off to watch presentation::
Liosse de Velishaf
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I haven't checked Wave out yet... my cousin is raving about it, though... he does... um... I dunno what it's called, I'm not cool enough. It's electronic music. Like taking other tracks and combining them and stuff with a big board. Anyway I think it helps him with that somehow?
Wow I sound dumb.
::Goes off to watch presentation::
Mixing?
Translators... poor things. They'll just never get to the point where people like them.
From Yahoo Babelfish
"I went to the store."
"Sono andato al deposito."
"They have gone to the warehouse."
*shakes head* No.
OMG. I'm 20 minutes into the presentation and... I NEED THIS AT WORK. My entire company needs this. We're almost completely remote based and SNAFUs happen constantly because someone will forget to hit "reply to all" or drop someone from the list of replies or suddenly decide I need to be part of something and give me this huge long chain of emails.
Oh wow. Yeah. Need.
Oh wow. Yeah. Need.
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Liosse de Velishaf
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Really? I think it made the sentence wrong.
Now, that's not to say I don't think the very next thing you need to do is take an old trunk novel and run it through a two-way translation between Japanese and English and send it out on sub.
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This reminds me of something someone sent me a long time ago--really lurid and sort of purple prosey cybersex logs ran through Babelfish 3 times. I can't find them any more, but they were the funniest thing I've ever seen.
Liosse de Velishaf
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hehe, I bet.
Here's a poem I wrote a long time ago, translated into Italian and back into English:
Autumn' s that it comes soon Fallen of it softly drips of it of the diamond of Dance hall From a cloudy crystal sky rain-hungry Breaches soothing Saying them a lie " It wasn' t gradice that You' honey; the obtained VE it all l' wrong Those wasn' t I have met because it I pray don' the t it says, ' Thus long.' " But she didn' the t it listens However it' the s it is only happened once it has taken its roba, she has left it Era far away in months wandering Ways starlit Always approximately screaming " I' m. spiacente for what I have made! " But I' the d it has left the probability to go close When the sun goes tomorrow down and the moon is on the sunset decline color scarlet sappy a my bone-deep pain bleeding I' the VE at last has found the reason to it for While l' autumn comes soon and eats alone has not never said that fortune teller was pregnant But that I would have to know
I'm not even sure where the line breaks go anymore.
Not funny, but maybe a little bit sad.
I have.
If you use restricted vocabulary, you can do amazing things. Some of the online help I write for large software companies using restricted vocabulary and specific syntax patterns is automatically translated.
It's checked by native speakers, and one company has just sent a notice that the native speaker /writer technical writers are making fewer than 1% of changes to millions of words for many languages.
For a truly bravura piece of translation, try Stanislaw Lem's Cyberiad.
Lem wrote it in Polish; Michael Kandel translated it into English.
With puns. And assonance. And jokes that are still funny.
Lem wrote it in Polish; Michael Kandel translated it into English.
With puns. And assonance. And jokes that are still funny.
It really is designed for collaboration and project management. I think it has promise for online teaching.
It's VERY MUCH ALPHA now.
But it is promising.
Not a Chomsky fan, sorry.
Chomsky is a tool.
Liosse de Velishaf
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Well, if I follow strict english phrase structure rules and avoid unecessary transformational rules, with an extremely simple vocabulary and short simple sentences, then yes, maybe it could work.
I think we've all learned by now that the internet is not exactly well-known for proper syntax (let alone "simple") and restricted vocabularies.
Well, it integrates email, IM, social networking, document collaboration (w/ version control), blogging, tweeting, and more, all in real time on both computing and mobile devices.
As Medi said, it's still very much Alpha phase, but they're Open Sourcing it now so independent developers can come up with new and different ways to use it.
The point I was making here is its implications for science fiction. I think the real-time integration and collaboration is a very different paradigm than we see for communications technology in novels.
For instance, in my novel, the "vid" is the single communications/entertainment device, so I integrated the platform, but messages are sent much like email, entertainment is streamed much like television, interactive communications are much like video phone.
But what if this "wave" paradigm really takes off. What are the implications for communications technology in near-future (or even far-future) fiction?
I think this is something that SF writers have to keep a close eye on.
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Very good point, Roger. It's like reading old Asimov stories in which the computers are ginormous and communicate with ticker-tape print-outs. And everything is made of plastic. Nothing worse than old-fashioned futuristic technology.
Of course, the really fun thing would be to imagine the next quantum leap. Which makes me wonder how many more quantum leaps there will be. There are some technologies that have not changed in decades or longer, other than minor tweaking, because they have basically reached a level that's hard to improve on. Or that we don't want improved on. The technological capability to have video conversations has been around for decades, but people LIKE being able to talk without being seen. I had a couple of video conversations with my mother on MSN. What a bore. Back to email and phone conversations.
Did you ever read Arthur C. Clarke's stories about the telephone being used as a transportation device? Great stuff. Did for physical space what the Internet has done for intellectual space. Except he wrote them long before the Internet, which makes them all the more remarkable.
But I digress. Yet again.
Of course, the really fun thing would be to imagine the next quantum leap. Which makes me wonder how many more quantum leaps there will be. There are some technologies that have not changed in decades or longer, other than minor tweaking, because they have basically reached a level that's hard to improve on. Or that we don't want improved on. The technological capability to have video conversations has been around for decades, but people LIKE being able to talk without being seen. I had a couple of video conversations with my mother on MSN. What a bore. Back to email and phone conversations.
Did you ever read Arthur C. Clarke's stories about the telephone being used as a transportation device? Great stuff. Did for physical space what the Internet has done for intellectual space. Except he wrote them long before the Internet, which makes them all the more remarkable.
But I digress. Yet again.
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