creepy romance?

[Keyaroscuro]

This thread keeps getting creepier, but it's fascinating to read.

 

[Cyia]

Actually, a resource for this kind of thing can be found in The Taming of the Shrew. It's not clandestine in that particular story, and the heroine is fully aware of what the man is doing, but the tactics are the same -- right down to trying to make her admit the sun is the moon because he says so.

 

[thebloodfiend]

Actually, a resource for this kind of thing can be found in The Taming of the Shrew. It's not clandestine in that particular story, and the heroine is fully aware of what the man is doing, but the tactics are the same -- right down to trying to make her admit the sun is the moon because he says so.

I really dislike that play as I've never been sure if Shakespeare was playing the trope straight or not. My feelings are mixed on 10 Things I Hate About You. Though I really like the theatrical poster.

 

[Dorky]

Man, everyone explained gaslighting way better than I ever could. I think something that ties in closely with it is invalidation which is just as creepy to come across in a story/movie/etc.

 

[Brishen]

My current peeve is a LI who is in a position of power over the MC - but that's supposed to be superhot. As in, for example, a teacher. I read SLAMMED by Colleen Hoover recently and while I thought it was cute and sweet, the teacher-student aspect still niggles at me. I haven't decided how I feel about the way it was handled and whether that's OK with my insides.

Anyway, in general the position-of-trust thing grosses me out, because the LI usually abuses his power or - perhaps even worse - is held up as some authority on virtue while he tries to resist the nubile female's sex appeal.

"You have no idea what you do to me," said the creepy teacher.

 

[chicgeek]

I don't like when a FMC lets her LI take her power away from her in order to "protect" her. When she subscribes to this notion that all of her power is essentially derived from him; that her personality, hopes, dreams and fears should therefore be as well.

Really... I'm creeped out by a girl who longs to define herself solely based on the man in her life. That opens the door for all sorts of abuse. If he's the ultimate, defining truth of her world, he can never really "mistreat" her, because any attention from him is good in her eyes. Maybe she doesn't like it, but it means she's worth something, to be the object of his attention. That's so very sad, that she's been conditioned to believe she can't have worth all on her own.

Any LI who perpetuates that under the guise of being romantic is creepy in my book.

 

[Zoombie]

See, the thing, a lot of this stuff actually kind of makes sense in my head from a sexual fantasy point of view.

But the problem is...in a fantasy, things that would never be okay in real life work just fine. Dragons fly and breathe fire, scaling laws and biochemistry be fucking damned!

Like, for example, the teacher/student thing. That works as a power fantasy, with the additional "naughty' element of schoolyard shenanigans. Plus, you can work all sorts of other kinks into it.

Which is why I think it'd be really interesting to see a YA book with a romance that has the creepy trappings as they SHOULD be: Consensual sexual roleplay built into an already stable, healthy relationship.

With...safe words and everything.

Also, he's a vampire.

 

[Brishen]

Yessss! 50 Grades of Play.

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Kind of what KateSmash said, but what's super creepy to me is when a character becomes so obsessed with the love interest that she (it could be a he, but for sake of avoiding the he/she bit, let's grab a gender and stick with it) starts basing her entire life and personality off of him and what she views as the ideal girlfriend for him. Sort of like a fangirl blinded by her obsession to the point that she loses herself completely.

I have a friend who has on multiple occasions described herself as a "fangirl" of her boyfriend. Some of the way she describes their future together after they get married kinda worries me, too. She's said she doesn't need a college degree, 'cause she doesn't care what kind of job she has even if it's shitty, because he will be the breadwinner and take care of her.

Like, he's never done anything super creepy that I've seen, but sometimes I worry about her attitude towards the whole thing, especially since I know she's had several abusive boyfriends in the past.


Just kind of a random anecdote of a time I've seen some of this behavior in the past.

 

[Canotila]

Forced physical contact that scares the MC at first, but by the end of the interaction they suddenly realize how hot the LI is and that they want more from the creep. I hate it. Hate hate hate. Can't remember what novel it was, but there was one where the LI was an aggressive jerk and he cornered the MC, pinned her down, and started kissing her even though she was trying to fight him off. But by the end of the kiss she was all into it and making out. As soon as she changed from fighting him to wanting him, he stopped and left. *barfs*

There is just so much wrong with that.

 

[EMaree]

ETA: Anyone hear the Weird Al song, "Do I Creep You Out?" It's now running through my head, lol.

Jonathan Coulton's "Skullcrusher Mountain" is stuck in my. Psychotic evil genius looking for love!

I especially hate the double standard of the girl who despises her love rival and refers to her as the slut, the whore, the one the guys only want because she shows herself off or everybody knows she's easy. Not only is this a terrible, slut-shaming thing to do, but if you really hate that kind of girl so much, how can your LI be so special if he's into that? Oh, right, because boys are blind idiots who are led around exclusively by their dicks, and it's up to you to show him what real love is. If you can be so sanctimonious and demeaning of a girl he seems to like, you don't deserve him.

My god, yes, I am tired of the internalized misogyny in YA.

I know it happens, and hell, I was guilty of looking down on other girls when I was growing up... but that was a mistake. I hate the way YA fiction keeps showing this and not even hinting that it's a terrible way to think of your own gender.

Haha I was totally coming back to cite "friendzoning" and Nice Guy/Nice Girl (TM). I was reading some commentary on it that really hit home for me: besides the fact that no one owes you sex or a relationship EVER, how shitty is this Nice Guy thing, really? Essentially by saying you've been "friendzoned," you're implying that your relationship isn't real or valuable unless you get to have sex with the object of your "affection." She trusts you, relies on you, calls on you, and you're clearly very important to her, but none of that matters because you never wanted friendship. You wanted to get laid.

NiceGuysofOKCupid, a Tumblr site, helped drive in how horrible the Nice Guys concept is for me.

I've been having fun working it in with my writing and tearing down my male MC's entitlement issues.

I assume most of these twincest stories involve straight fraternal twins of opposite genders, so I suppose at least it is objectively possibly for them to be physically attracted to each other. But I have never met any twins who found the idea of twincest attractive, or amusing. Perhaps not offensive exactly, but silly or maybe ridiculous.



The majority of incest happens in homes that are abusive, awful places to be. It is not sexy. It is not healthy. It is not cute or amusing. It also happens mostly between an older, more authoritative figure, and a younger, weaker figure.


And even if the portrayal followed the general pattern of real-life incest, the whole twincest deal is so often over-sexualized as a fantasy, especially in fanfic. Normal portrayal of twins in fiction is bad enough, do we really need to throw this kind of thing into the mix, as well?

Another twin here, one of two females who don't get along for more than five minutes around each other.

I don't have any big problem with twincest in a clearly fictional scenario, because hey, fantasies are harmless. But it makes me uncomfortable and I don't read it.

 

[Windcutter]

See, the thing, a lot of this stuff actually kind of makes sense in my head from a sexual fantasy point of view.
(partially snipped)

Like, for example, the teacher/student thing. That works as a power fantasy, with the additional "naughty' element of schoolyard shenanigans. Plus, you can work all sorts of other kinks into it.

But then it makes me wonder why there are so few fantasies of the opposite sort. Like I always say, if Bella the eternal and powerful vampire girl watched Ed sleep and stalked him and wished to own him and worried about eating him up in ways that give guys nightmares instead of sweet dreams--would there be many readers for such a book? Quite the opposite--often female MCs reject a position of power. Actually, it's a typical conflict bound to love triangle. "Good" LI wants a normal life with MC, "bad" LI tries to push MC into a position of power (that also serves his own goals, of course), and MC ultimately rejects them both.

 

[missesdash]

I have a twincest idea brewing in my mind these days. May or may not get written. It's a really interesting (not to mention disturbing) thing.

Yeah I recall. If you were able to get something like that published, I'd be pretty goddamn shocked.

Did you read the follow up, btw? The couple wrote to talk about how things were going. They also clarified some things about their sex life, lol. So so so bizarre.

 

[Zoombie]

But then it makes me wonder why there are so few fantasies of the opposite sort. Like I always say, if Bella the eternal and powerful vampire girl watched Ed sleep and stalked him and wished to own him and worried about eating him up in ways that give guys nightmares instead of sweet dreams--would there be many readers for such a book?

While I agree that, in our culture, lots of men wouldn't like that...but never say that someone wouldn't be into something. There's always someone who would be into something...

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Jonathan Coulton's "Skullcrusher Mountain" is stuck in my. Psychotic evil genius looking for love!

Is the best song!

Another twin here, one of two females who don't get along for more than five minutes around each other.

I don't have any big problem with twincest in a clearly fictional scenario, because hey, fantasies are harmless. But it makes me uncomfortable and I don't read it.

Sexual fantasies tend to be harmless. But it was really frustrating back when Wincest was just getting to be a thing in the Supernatural fandom, girls would liked the show and found out I had a twin would constantly makes jokes and comments about me and my twin, and it was extremely frustrating that they couldn't see why this upset me.


The portrayal of twins in fiction in general is so full of stereotypes that I really dislike, and it's annoying to have people make assumptions about me because of them.

Books do affect readers' thought-patterns, even if it's generally harmless.

 

[The_Ink_Goddess]

Yeah I recall. If you were able to get something like that published, I'd be pretty goddamn shocked.

Did you read the follow up, btw? The couple wrote to talk about how things were going. They also clarified some things about their sex life, lol. So so so bizarre.

I think you could. I mean, yes, it's taboo, and you'd probably get a lot of auto rejects from agents/editors just too repulsed to go there. But look at FORBIDDEN: somebody went there and I must say that was a YA book I never thought I'd see: something that treated consensual incest as something romantic and close to erotica. I found this very problematic, but lots of people read it.

I think twincest is almost more palatable (to readership at large) than other incestuous relationships. The idea is around Gothic horror in ALL shapes and sizes. There's almost bound to be some form of sexual tension between twins in books where a twin relationship comes to the fore. Twins are pretty rare and I can understand why they are creepy, weird and "foreign" to writers and many other people.

I'm a twin (both girls) and I don't take it seriously at all. I love reading about odd and off-kilter relationships anyway, and I'm surprised that so many fellow twins are taking this to heart.

 

[Saanen]

Mine's tame compared to most of these people have brought up, but I hate it when the FMC is looking for/thinks she's found her "soulmate." Extra creepy points if she flat out says that she thinks there's only one soulmate out there for anyone. If that were true, what are the odds that she'd find him living/visiting near her and not in, say, Tokyo or a tiny village in Guatamala? And of course being soulmates seems to mean that the LI gets to continue on pretty much as he was while she changes herself to suit him (which doesn't seem very soulmatey to me).

 

[ArachnePhobia]

Mine's tame compared to most of these people have brought up, but I hate it when the FMC is looking for/thinks she's found her "soulmate." Extra creepy points if she flat out says that she thinks there's only one soulmate out there for anyone. If that were true, what are the odds that she'd find him living/visiting near her and not in, say, Tokyo or a tiny village in Guatamala? And of course being soulmates seems to mean that the LI gets to continue on pretty much as he was while she changes herself to suit him (which doesn't seem very soulmatey to me).

That reminds me of a... certain author... popular when I was in high school: a friend of mine lamented in utter despond, after reading her latest-at-the-time book, "It's like, she introduces a girl in chapter one and a boy in chapter two and you know by the end they're going to be soul mates! There's not the slighest chance they could get away from each other even if they wanted to!" Being the nice person I am, I admitted I just skimmed those parts.

 

[Windcutter]

While I agree that, in our culture, lots of men wouldn't like that...but never say that someone wouldn't be into something. There's always someone who would be into something...

But aren't books like that mostly aimed at the female audience anyway?

But look at FORBIDDEN: somebody went there and I must say that was a YA book I never thought I'd see: something that treated consensual incest as something romantic and close to erotica. I found this very problematic, but lots of people read it.

I actually thought the general message of that book was closer to "kids, don't try this dangerous stuff at home" than to romantification. That is, it was treated like an issue.
Though a friend of mine agrees with you (about close to erotica) and thinks treating it as an issue was just a way to make the whole thing palatable to the average reviewer.

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I think you could. I mean, yes, it's taboo, and you'd probably get a lot of auto rejects from agents/editors just too repulsed to go there. But look at FORBIDDEN: somebody went there and I must say that was a YA book I never thought I'd see: something that treated consensual incest as something romantic and close to erotica. I found this very problematic, but lots of people read it.

I think twincest is almost more palatable (to readership at large) than other incestuous relationships. The idea is around Gothic horror in ALL shapes and sizes. There's almost bound to be some form of sexual tension between twins in books where a twin relationship comes to the fore. Twins are pretty rare and I can understand why they are creepy, weird and "foreign" to writers and many other people.

I'm a twin (both girls) and I don't take it seriously at all. I love reading about odd and off-kilter relationships anyway, and I'm surprised that so many fellow twins are taking this to heart.

As one of the twins who has been vocal in this thread, I want to clear something up. It's not the mere idea of a twincest story I have an issue with. Rule 34 and all that.

But the portrayal of twins in fiction, cestuous or not, has been so stereotyped in my experience, and then people who don't know twins take these things as gospel. I can't count the number of times I've had people ask me whether my twin and I had our own language (one of the most persistent and bullshit twin stereotypes ever), or if we switched clothes to trick people, or one of the many such silly stereotypes.

So by all means, consider writing a twincest story, but at least try to get some of the specifics right.

 

[thebloodfiend]

As one of the twins who has been vocal in this thread, I want to clear something up. It's not the mere idea of a twincest story I have an issue with. Rule 34 and all that.

But the portrayal of twins in fiction, cestuous or not, has been so stereotyped in my experience, and then people who don't know twins take these things as gospel. I can't count the number of times I've had people ask me whether my twin and I had our own language (one of the most persistent and bullshit twin stereotypes ever), or if we switched clothes to trick people, or one of the many such silly stereotypes.

So by all means, consider writing a twincest story, but at least try to get some of the specifics right.

I'm not even a twin and it annoys me—mostly because my sister and I are so close in age, people like to call us twins and mix us up. It's weird.

The twins in my current MS hate each other. Though I don't hate my sister.

 

[maybegenius]

Sidenote: I find it interesting that we have no fewer than three sets of twins in this thread! (Well, three people who have twins, that is.)

Second sidenote: my Twitter feed today had a promoted post from some guy who was promoting his dating advice book about how to get out of the "friendzone." I killed that promo so fast. IMPROVE YOUR ALGORITHMS, TWITTER. I AM NOT THE FRIENDZONE TARGET AUDIENCE.

 

[Yeasayer]

But the portrayal of twins in fiction, cestuous or not, has been so stereotyped in my experience, and then people who don't know twins take these things as gospel. I can't count the number of times I've had people ask me whether my twin and I had our own language (one of the most persistent and bullshit twin stereotypes ever), or if we switched clothes to trick people, or one of the many such silly stereotypes.

These people clearly have watched too many Sister, Sister reruns on the Disney Channel.

 

[CBNDNI]

what is the overall consensus on celebrity crushes? Not sure if that was discussed before but it would take forever to read all of the posts.

 

[missesdash]

what is the overall consensus on celebrity crushes? Not sure if that was discussed before but it would take forever to read all of the posts.

A celebrity crush isn't a romantic relationship. But if it was portrayed as one, hell yeah that would be creepy? The celebrity is generally unaware of the fangirl/guy's existence? An actual relationship between a person and their celebrity crush can't really be described as "creepy" or "healthy" unless you know specific dynamics within the relationship.