How long?

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

Okay, if you're opening a novel with a dream, which is important to the book because it actually happened... How long is too long? I have a 7 page version, a 6 and a half, and a 4 page one. I like the 7 paged one the best. Any advice? I have the three versions listed in the SYW thread.

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88252

~Jen

Danthia · Jan 6, 2008

Which version grabs the reader and holds their interest best? Has the best pacing? Ends on the right moment that make the reader want to turn the page? That's the version you go with. Lenth doesn't matter. It needs to be as long or as short as it has to be to hook the reader.

One note though, the "open with a dream" idea is one of those things that the writing powers that be say not to do. It's become rather cliched. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't do it, it's your novel, just be aware of the extra challenge of starting this way. You'll have to work a little harder to overcome the industry prejudice regarding dream openings.

miles · Jan 6, 2008

Found the post here.

It may very well be important to the book, but it's not wise to open with a dream because the reader may feel cheated or misled into thinking the novel is one kind of story instead of another.

So, open with the real story and add the dream a bit later (short is better IMO). Once the reader knows the character and understands the story, (s)he won't mind a dream sequence as long as it builds character and is essential to the plot.

That's my opinion anyway.

HeronW · Jan 6, 2008

Oh, didn't someone just post something similar?

Dreams are tricksy things to start with since they're like having the protag watch a movie--a ficton within a fiction. Worst is ending: I woke up and it was all a dream.

Why not start with something that gives the reader insight into the character with some drama, then use the dream in a later chapter to foreshadow something else that will bedevil the protag, or to highlight something in the past?

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

Well these are all good points. I have realized that dreams are cliche to open with... but it's kind of difficult with my book. When my character dreams, she is actually in that time, whether past, present, or future. It's a magical ability. The dream comes first because she is driven by it. It's a part of who she is, which is shown in the next chapter. She's had it all her life and it's given her so many questions. She runs away to learn the truth because she believes they're more than dreams. Is that still cliche?? Is it still bad?

Bufty · Jan 6, 2008

Hi Mara.

There's nothing in what you've written to let me in on the fact that she has magical ability and is able to control when and if she enters or leaves a dream.

Without your sharing that extremely pertinent knowledge with me, the final waking-up sentence is an infuriating let-down - - for me at least.

Why have you left me out of the loop?

mara_jade3 said:
Well these are all good points. I have realized that dreams are cliche to open with... but it's kind of difficult with my book. When my character dreams, she is actually in that time, whether past, present, or future. It's a magical ability. The dream comes first because she is driven by it. It's a part of who she is, which is shown in the next chapter. She's had it all her life and it's given her so many questions. She runs away to learn the truth because she believes they're more than dreams. Is that still cliche?? Is it still bad?

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

Okay. Well at this point she doesn't know it's real. She just believes it must be. She doesn't find out any of that until near the end because I didn't want to give anything away.

I'm not sure what to do then because I need surprises for her and the reader. Is it really that big of a deal?

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

Wait... Idea! Should I end the chapter with something showing it was more than a dream??

Bufty · Jan 6, 2008

Yes. How would you like to read seven pages then find it was all a dream?

mara_jade3 said:
Is it really that big of a deal?

ChaosTitan · Jan 6, 2008

mara_jade3 said:
I'm not sure what to do then because I need surprises for her and the reader. Is it really that big of a deal?

It is a big deal, or folks here wouldn't be telling you to not do it. I also skimmed your opening scenes, and like Bufty, I was annoyed by the "and then she woke up" bit. If I read a novel with a scene like that, I'd toss it across the room into my yard sale box.

Surprises are fun for the reader. However, your first chapters need to set up your world, introduce your main character and her conflict, and propel us into the story. By starting with this dream, you pull the rug out from under the reader before we've had a chance to really understand the world or the character. It makes me not trust you.

Save the surprises for when they'll have the most impact (for a silly example, would we have cared to know that Darth Vader was Luke's father during the opening credit scroll of Episode IV? Nope, not one bit....).

miles · Jan 6, 2008

mara_jade3 said:
Wait... Idea! Should I end the chapter with something showing it was more than a dream??

Yes, that could work. Eliminate the "and then she woke up" line and just end the scene at the end of the dream. Start the next scene with her on a floor or somewhere more interesting than a bed, wondering what the hell just happened and where she was.

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

Bufty said:
Yes. How would you like to read seven pages then find it was all a dream?

I must be the only one who likes dreams in books... :gone:

Bufty · Jan 6, 2008

Why end it that way? Let me in on it as it progresses - give me a hint here and there. The sooner I suspect she can control this - even though she doesn't know she can -the better.

Hint - This is obviously not the first time she's crossed paths with the captain and this lot? Did you consider a spot in his POV? Don't know how it would work -just a thought.

mara_jade3 said:
Wait... Idea! Should I end the chapter with something showing it was more than a dream??

Bufty · Jan 6, 2008

Not advisable. That's simply a dream variation.

miles said:
Yes, that could work. Eliminate the "and then she woke up" line and just end the scene at the end of the dream. Start the next scene with her on a floor or somewhere more interesting than a bed, wondering what the hell just happened and where she was.

miles · Jan 6, 2008

Bufty said:
Not advisable. That's simply a dream variation.

Not if she combines your suggestions as well.

My point is that even if she does what you suggest, the "and then I woke up" line should be deleted.

J. Weiland · Jan 6, 2008

mara_jade3 said:
I must be the only one who likes dreams in books...

Naaah. . . not the only one. You just have to use them effectively, as a plot device, e.g. a preminition/forshadowing of something really important that will happen in the future.

Also, if you do want the dream in the book you have to make your reader subtly aware of the fact that it is a dream and not reality, because, as others have mentioned, the novel where the protagonist goes through all sorts of tribulation only to wake up when it gets really exciting is a cliché in literature. You don't want to fool the reader into believing something and them smack 'em in the head. You want to intrigue them with exciting possibilities of 'what is going on?'.

As an example, I just read David Gemmell's Legend where a few dream sequences appear, or rather Gemmell makes the reader guess at whether it is a dream or not by blurring the lines between dream and reality, incorporating elements that tells you as a reader that it could be real or it could all be a dream makes it all that more exciting, especially if it gives the reader hope of something that is to come or is a fulfillment of something that has been hinted at by the author/anticipated by the reader at an earlier point in the work.

So incorporate your dream into your work if you want to, but make sure to make it intriguing so we as readers want to find out what the heck is going on.

Toothpaste · Jan 6, 2008

Does your book need to start with a dream? Why not introduce us to the characters and everything, give us some conflict, and then have her dream. You could even start with:

"Jane was tired of dreaming. It made her dread going to bed. Her dreams were all the same . . . "

Just a suggestion.

cletus · Jan 6, 2008

I see that opening with a dream is also currently being discussed in this thread:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88193

Note the original poster in that thread had an agent who liked their first chapter until the agent found out it was a dream.

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

Well, it would be very confusing if I didn't have this dream near the beginning. If I started with something else, it would take a LOT of rearranging.

And I have an agent interested and she does know it's a dream. She just wanted it tightened up...

I'm looking at the second chapter to see if it would make sense without the dream and it kinda wouldn't. Bleh!

slcboston · Jan 6, 2008

mara_jade3 said:
I must be the only one who likes dreams in books...

Nope, I like dreams in books when I a: know they're dreams up front and b: they don't get discarded the moment the character wakes up.

Pull a "Wizard of Oz" on me (the movie, not the book) where it's all a dream, and I get really tempted to hunt down the author and beat them with a copy of their own book.

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

I'd ask someone to read the bit I just wrote for the new beginning to make the next chapter interesting, but now you people have me afraid I'll get jumped... :flag:

slcboston · Jan 6, 2008

mara_jade3 said:
I'd ask someone to read the bit I just wrote for the new beginning to make the next chapter interesting, but now you people have me afraid I'll get jumped...

I think... just my opinion mind you... that because in your case the dreams are integral, and more of a "displacement" than a dream, really, that you ought to be able to get away with this. So long as you make it clear to the ready early on enough what's going on.

Does she wake from her "dream" with something tangible to prove the experience was more than just a dream, for example?

(I don't jump anyone that doesn't deserve it... or asks to be.

)

mara_jade3 · Jan 6, 2008

slcboston said:
I think... just my opinion mind you... that because in your case the dreams are integral, and more of a "displacement" than a dream, really, that you ought to be able to get away with this. So long as you make it clear to the ready early on enough what's going on.

Does she wake from her "dream" with something tangible to prove the experience was more than just a dream, for example?

(I don't jump anyone that doesn't deserve it... or asks to be. )

lol Oh my. Noted.

*ahem* Well, when she wakes up, she has injuries from the dream. That was my way of hinting that it wasn't just a dream. Does that give anyone any suggestions or thoughts?

slcboston · Jan 6, 2008

Ooh, now THAT would not only pique my interest but would also keep me from being unduly irked that I just spent five minutes reading a dream sequence without knowing what it was.

I think that's enough to make it work, at least for me.

Bufty · Jan 6, 2008

I'm not sure that's enough. Anyone can fall out of a bed and thwack themselves or whatever.

Personally, I would rather be let in on her secret ability while I read the unfolding opening events. To my mind, the longer you keep that info hidden from me, the more you risk losing me.

mara_jade3 said:
lol Oh my. Noted.

*ahem* Well, when she wakes up, she has injuries from the dream. That was my way of hinting that it wasn't just a dream. Does that give anyone any suggestions or thoughts?

How long?

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