Steampunk and Urban Fantasy

Steampunk can mean so many things, it shouldn't be hard mixing it with fantasy elements. Especially since fantasy itself is only limited by, indeed, fantasy.

I've had a sci.fi and fantasy combination story floating around my mind for some time and have lots of ideas, so PM me if you want to bounce ideas.

ProtoMatic said:

Steampunk can mean so many things, it shouldn't be hard mixing it with fantasy elements. Especially since fantasy itself is only limited by, indeed, fantasy.

I've had a sci.fi and fantasy combination story floating around my mind for some time and have lots of ideas, so PM me if you want to bounce ideas.

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I'm kind of puzzled by the "shouldn't be hard mixing it with fantasy elements" since it's a subgenre of fantsy. *looks confused* No need to mix it. They're there.

Nalani Ashmore said:

Fonzy? *bows* I'm just joking.

Anyway, I don't even know what year/century/era the style of clothing comes from. I just don't know what it's mainly associated with. Why are there clocks or pocket watches that come with most clothing?

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In my head, the steampunk style is similar industrial revolution era, but much more stylized.

You've lost me on the clocks and watches thugh. I've never bought a piece of clothing with a watch attached. Maybe I visit the wrong stores?

J. R. Tomlin said:

I'm kind of puzzled by the "shouldn't be hard mixing it with fantasy elements" since it's a subgenre of fantsy. *looks confused* No need to mix it. They're there.

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Steampunk is closer to sci-fi than fantasy, but there can of course be a lot of crossover. They aren't, however, inherently mixed, so I'm confused by your confusion.

Well, it's not strictly defined as either fantasy or SF but a subgenre of both. You may consider putting (as an example) dirigibles in an alternative universe or computers in Victorian England to be SF, but it's something of a stretch. And since quite a bit of steampunk has magic of one form or another in it, I'd say that's ... debatable.

Edit: To clarify, I would consider steampunk a subgenre of SF/F rather than one or the other. I certainly disagree that it is closer to SF, in fact, I'd say the opposite.

I don't know much about it, but my naive understanding is that it's closer to fantasy than sci-fi. It's sci-fi in the sense there there is some technology involved, but I thought it was essentially the idea that instead of going in for electricty and computers (and typically sf elements), clockwork, cogs and steam technology were far more extensively developed (hence the lots of clocks).

I love the feel of the idea, but haven't actually come across anything in the genre.

As for combining it with urban fantasy - not sure how that would work. Is urban fantasy the one that's supposed to be set sort of in this day and age and roughly in this world?

Oddsocks said:

As for combining it with urban fantasy - not sure how that would work. Is urban fantasy the one that's supposed to be set sort of in this day and age and roughly in this world?

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Yep. Modern setting with fantasy elements, such as Faeries, vampires, werewolves, demons, magic, etc....

Nalani Ashmore said:

Anyway, I don't even know what year/century/era the style of clothing comes from. I just don't know what it's mainly associated with.

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Victorian (19th c) England. There's probably some overlap with other periods and locales, but that should be a starting point.

Oddsocks said:

I don't know much about it, but my naive understanding is that it's closer to fantasy than sci-fi. It's sci-fi in the sense there there is some technology involved, but I thought it was essentially the idea that instead of going in for electricty and computers (and typically sf elements), clockwork, cogs and steam technology were far more extensively developed (hence the lots of clocks).

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Actually, computers (analog as well as digital, though I'm afraid not many readers know the difference) made from mechanical devices appear to be a common theme in steampunk. But it depends on how you define a computer. You're not going to have anything resembling a graphical user interface as in MS Windows or the Macintosh - these require hundreds of millions of basic computing gates, and computing speeds many orders of magnitude faster than mechanical parts could possibly do.

I've always thought of Steampunk as a subgenre of SF, an alternate history of a certain time (19th Century), though from poking around on the web it appears there have been a lot of fantasy set in the idea/era.
The only work I've read in the genre is "The Difference Engine" (1991), the allegedly definitive Steampunk work, and it was definitely alternate-history SF rather than fantasy. It barely mentions the technology, and quite frankly, for a mechanical digital computer to hold some significant amount of data such as the novel's police database would require literally millions and millions of mechanical parts, making it hugely expensive, slow, and well, unlikely. <cynical comment> Perhaps that's where the 'fantasy' part of steampunk comes from.</>

I was thinking it wouldn't technically be steampunk if you toss in fantasy elements (steampunk started as a SF subgenre) but the Wikipedia article does discuss the genre as being a part of fantasy as much as SF. Perhaps it has evolved greatly since "The Difference Engine":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

Oddsocks said:

I love the feel of the idea, but haven't actually come across anything in the genre.

As for combining it with urban fantasy - not sure how that would work. Is urban fantasy the one that's supposed to be set sort of in this day and age and roughly in this world?

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My nanowrimo novel will supposedly be the REAL definitive steampunk work in the (SF) field, but it's not going well at the moment. Maybe it's a bit presumptuous to think I can write my first novel and have it meet such a high standard...

I haven't gotten around to reading "The Difference Engine" but have read quite a bit of later steampunk. I've never written in but sometimes enjoy reading it. I think it has always been considered at least as close to fantasy as SF and the fact that the "technology" does things that it couldn't possibly do (as the reference to what the computers can do) has a lot to do with it. I always looked at it as a form of fantasy. It's fun to read and I may write some someday although it's not a big seller any more, I don't believe.

I guess it's 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

I've always considered it a branch of Sci-Fi, not fantasy.

But technically, it's all under the umbrella of speculative fiction, so again, whatever makes you feel good.

Try Harm's Way, by Colin Greenland - Victorian docks on a space station, and space ships that act like sailing ships, complete with rigging. Great fun.

<Derailment>

J. R. Tomlin said:

I haven't gotten around to reading "The Difference Engine" but have read quite a bit of later steampunk. I've never written in but sometimes enjoy reading it. I think it has always been considered at least as close to fantasy as SF and the fact that the "technology" does things that it couldn't possibly do (as the reference to what the computers can do) has a lot to do with it. I always looked at it as a form of fantasy. It's fun to read and I may write some someday although it's not a big seller any more, I don't believe.

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I'm sorry, but by this reasoning, almost every bit of sci-fi out there is actually fantasy. Hmm.

Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Firefly/Serenity and almost every other piece of sci-fi has "technology that does things that it couldn't possibly do."

Actually, adding "technology" in there makes it sci-fi all by itself. It sort of lies in the context. Science fiction. The fiction part means it's probably made up by the author.

The real difference engine

"Pure" steampunk isn't fantasy at all. It's (like someone said before me) alternate history sci-fi. The whole concept of steampunkieness is about using 19th century mechanics in a "super-advanced" form. Writing a steampunk story and using fantasy elements to explain what's happening ("It's MAGIC!") is just lazy and not clever at all. Adding steampunkiness to a fantasy setting however doesn't make steampunk into fantasy, it makes a fantasy story with bits of steampunk attached. Adding steampunk to the piles and piles of fantasy "subgenres" is just a lazy (or ignorant) way to deal with mechanical issues.

I know I'm being stubborn about this, but just like action (yes, there are many different "subgenres" of action!), I take sci-fi very seriously.

</derailment>

Combining proper steampunkieness with an urban fantasy setting is no problem at all, we've seen through this thread how close the two are already, but in my opinion coggies (steampunk "users") and wizards (magic users *duh*) should be separated by faction to avoid going the easy route and just explaining everything by way of Magick. (You don't even have to explain anything, but that way it's even more important to conciously separate the mechanical and the magical, to avoid confusion.)

I guess the reason I think of it as fantasy rather than sf is because where I have come across stuff like this, it's been more a case of steam/clockwork level technology thrown into the worldbuilding of a fantasy world, rather than an actual alternate history. I can't think of any examples though - except maybe in anime - last exile? Jing? Not sure about those.

I know what you mean. Dwarves and gnomes "traditionally" use clockwork engines and such.

Actually, the game City of Heroes has a villain group called Nemesis which is very close to what I have in mind when I think about steampunkishness. Very stylized industrial revolution era look, and advanced steam technology.

Oddsocks said:

I guess the reason I think of it as fantasy rather than sf is because where I have come across stuff like this, it's been more a case of steam/clockwork level technology thrown into the worldbuilding of a fantasy world, rather than an actual alternate history. I can't think of any examples though - except maybe in anime - last exile? Jing? Not sure about those.

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Would The Scar and Perdido Street Station qualify, or am I totally off base here?

To me, steampunk is not the same as steam-era fantasy. There may be fantasy elements in steampunk (often in the form of 'technology' so outrageous it must be magical, like flying tall ships) but the emphasis is on technology rather than magic. I write industrial era fantasy with technology like steamships and trains, but the stories revolve around magic, so I wouldn't consider it steampunk. As for combining steampunk with urban fantasy, the only way I would really see that working is if you chose to write a fantasy story set in 19th/early 20th century earth, though adding technology which never existed would make it sci-fi/steampunk rather than urban fantasy (I think; this is complicated). If I wanted to write about advanced steam technology that's never existed on Earth, I'd just build an entire fantasy world for it, and let it be high fantasy with steampunk/sci-fi elements (actually, I'd worry about the genre after I wrote the book, but that's me)

The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (movie) is steampunk, isn't it?

This whole thread makes me want to write steampunk.

Hope To The Horizon said:

To me, steampunk is not the same as steam-era fantasy. There may be fantasy elements in steampunk (often in the form of 'technology' so outrageous it must be magical, like flying tall ships) but the emphasis is on technology rather than magic. I write industrial era fantasy with technology like steamships and trains, but the stories revolve around magic, so I wouldn't consider it steampunk. As for combining steampunk with urban fantasy, the only way I would really see that working is if you chose to write a fantasy story set in 19th/early 20th century earth, though adding technology which never existed would make it sci-fi/steampunk rather than urban fantasy (I think; this is complicated). If I wanted to write about advanced steam technology that's never existed on Earth, I'd just build an entire fantasy world for it, and let it be high fantasy with steampunk/sci-fi elements (actually, I'd worry about the genre after I wrote the book, but that's me)

The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (movie) is steampunk, isn't it?

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Indeed is. But I think that Steampunk and Fantasy are possible, just watch Van Helsing or The League of Extraordinary Gentlement. The first one is essentially fantasy with Steampunk and the later one is essentially Steampunk with subtle classical Fantasy

Doodlebug said:

Would The Scar and Perdido Street Station qualify, or am I totally off base here?

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Perdido Street Station is generally considered steampunk with some cross subgenre elements thrown in for good measure. It's one of those novels that is very difficult to put an exact label on.

And since the emphasis in steampunk is on technology that is so outrageous it can only be magic--then the emphasis is on magic. There does have to be an emphasis on "clockwork" magic for it to be considered steampunk though. And was the case with League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, there are often elements of classical magic as well.

J. R. Tomlin said:

Perdido Street Station is generally considered steampunk with some cross subgenre elements thrown in for good measure. It's one of those novels that is very difficult to put an exact label on.

And since the emphasis in steampunk is on technology that is so outrageous it can only be magic--then the emphasis is on magic. There does have to be an emphasis on "clockwork" magic for it to be considered steampunk though. And was the case with League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, there are often elements of classical magic as well.

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So Jules Verne and H.G. Welles wrote fantasy, then? Because at the time they wrote their novels, the technology they wrote about was so outrageous it could only be considered magic.

How about Frank Herbert's Dune? That floating fat man looks pretty magical, no? And the Spice that makes peoples eyes glow has no foundation in biology or physics. Richard Morgan's altered carbon technology is also something that to us is outrageously strange, is that magic? (and subsequently makes the books fantasy and not sci-fi?) And since we don't currently have the technology to do it, is FTL magic? In that case Battlestar Galacica is fantasy. I could go on and on.

And "Steamboy" doesn't mention magic at all. I doubt you can call that anything but steampunk.

By your reasoning, anything Sci-Fi is actually fantasy. But it's called science fiction, which incidentally means it's made up, and doesn't nessecarily need to be grounded in reality. But it still doesn't make it magical or fantastical (okay, it's a BIT fantastical but that itself doesn't mean it's fantasy.)

Having to explain technology with magic is only laziness, not a proof of specific genres. Steampunk doesn't require magic. Indeed, if you add magical properties to "steam-tech", it's no longer steampunk. It's fantasy. Adding magic to "steam-tech" removes the "tech" aspect alltogether, and makes it "Steam-magic". This is obvious, really.

In steampunk, you use technology to explain seemingly magical properties, not the other way around. Also very very obvious.

Again. There's nothing in steampunk that is magical. It only seems that way to the technologically challenged. Magic in steampunk (or any other tech-based genre) is a crutch to people who don't know how to explain technology.

I'm not saying you have to separate the genres fantasy and steampunk. What you have to separate is the concept of steampunk and the concept of magic. Or else it's not a combination between fantasy and steampunk, it's just fantasy.

EDIT: Oops. I seem to have repeated myself something fierce here. But only because this is so obvious that it may need to be explained in different ways.

PS: I wouldn't call Perdido Street Station steampunk. It's an alien world with alien people and alien technology. Sure its industrial style setting is similar, but as far as I can remember (I read the book some 3 years ago) there's no mention of actual steam technology. Then again, my memory could possibly serve me a dish of rotten information.

Electric Velocipede and the Steampunk 'Zine are your friends.

http://www.electricvelocipede.com/

http://www.tangledwilderness.org/?p=38

I recommend picking up EV #10, actually.

And, checking out Hayao Miyazaki films.

Well, you might not call Perdido Street Steampunk, at least in some elements, but plenty of other people made the connection.

Here is part of the review from Strange Horizons:

Steampunk, fantasy, science fiction, horror. . . what's in a name? China Miéville's second novel, Perdido Street Station, is a sprawling, intense book that defies precise genre definition.

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It certainly had steampunk elements as well as those from other subgenre as well. Exactly what I said...

A good book and I recommend it, by the way, however one cares to define it.

ProtoMatic, I'm sorry my contention, which I stick by, that steampunk has magical elements upsets you so much. Obviously this is an emotional issue with you.

In ranting that I am somehow insulting Verne and Wells, you rather miss the point. Would you care to tell me how a tall ship "sails" through the air? I have never seen the slightest attempt to give this some kind of scientific basis. It isn't the imaginative use of scientific technology. It is the use of magic.

Interestingly enough Wikipedia doesn't even mention SF in its basic definition of Steampunk.

Steampunk is a subgenre of fantasy and speculative fiction which came into prominence in the 1980s and early 1990s.

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I think this is going a bit far. Steampunk is obviously, to me, about halfway in between the two. If you consider this some kind of insult, honestly, that's something you'll have to deal with. I happen to love fantasy and consider it a compliment.

ProtoMatic, I don't know why you think steampunk has no magic just because science fiction has no magic.

Science-Fiction has magic all the time, and fantasy has science in it all the time.

The presence of other elements does not negate the definition because genre walls are very porous and primarily a marketing department's convenient, profitable illusion.