Has anyone ever felt like this about your writing project?

[Nateskate]

"It is, I feel, only too likely that I am deluded, lost in a web of vain imaginings of not much value to others-in spite of the fact that a few readers have found it good, on the whole." J.R.R Tolkien, fro, Tolkien Letters #131

It's somewhat comforting to know that someone else felt the way I feel as I plug away...

Some days it feels like the goal is a million miles away and moving further by the minute instead of closer. At any rate, it's good to know that successful people have also felt the same. I say this to you who do feel as I do, hang in there!

[mr mistook]

I felt like that just today!

The story I'm writing is starting to take the form of - almost a compilation of short stories. All stories are related and share characters, and the intention is to tell one big story, but there's just no way to cover all the angles from a single POV.

So the WIP is breaking up into, sort-of, sub-books that focus for a number of chapters on one character's experiences. I'm starting to wonder if this approach is just too weird for anybody to get through.

That doubt forced me to analyze the story itself - why is it so complicated? What is the point here?

Before you know it, I'm thinking, "Oh, God! Nothing I'm writing is going to matter to anybody!"

And yet, here I am back at work. Something deep down says I must write this story, and that it will make sense and be great if I can but get to the end of it.

And yeah, on a day like today, it looks like the end will never come. All I know is - if the end ever comes - it will only be if I persevere.

-----

One way I cope with things is to look at every year as being a single day. Every month is two hours of that creative day. When working on large projects, I adjust my goals according to what can be reasonably done in the coming "day".

Right now it's a bit after 1AM for 2005. Still very early. Even the early birds are asleep. On March 1st, it will be exactly 5AM. By July 1st it will be lunch-time.

Don't bother working past November 15th (9PM) The holidays will kill any progress you might make. Might as well call it a day and enjoy the festivities.

[Writing Again]

Not just the novel as you are writing it: My first acceptance letter I tacked to the wall and had to go back and keep checking on it. I double checked with the bank, "Is this really good?"

Someone tells you what you wrote was trash and your first reaction is to say, "Hey, it is not trash, it was good."

And then someone tells you how totally wonderful it was and you feel sheepish and silly because right then you are certain it was trash.

No wonder people who achieve fame and fortune fall into the impostor syndrome.

[evanaharris]

Yes. More specifically, Michael Chabon nailed my recent project (temporarily abandoned) when he wrote:

"What was it about? This, unfortunately, is what I could never quite figure out: the great River of the West my large, well-equipped expedition never managed to find. It was a novel about utopian dreamers, ecological activists, an Israeli spy, a gargantuan Florida real estate deal, the education of an architect, the perfect baseball park, Paris, French cooking, and the crazy and ongoing dream of rebuilding the Great Temple in Jerusalem. It was about loss--lost paradises, lost cities, the loss of the Temple, the loss of a brother to AIDS; and the concomitant dream of Restoration or Rebuilding. It was also, naturally, a love story, an account of a love affair between a young American and a Parisian woman ten years his senior. The action was divided between Paris and the fictitious town of Fountain City, Florida. But I could never get those two halves to stick together convincingly, and I knew just enough about most of the above-mentioned subjects to be able to persuade the reader that they didn't all belong in the same book together."

[Nateskate]

I feel your pain everyone.

Mr Mistook, I P.Md you a portion of the short story, and an explanation of how it relates to the overall story. But writing this was a temporary fix. It's purpose was to get something down on paper and finish it. And I do plan to submit it very soon.

Back to Tolkiens letter to Waldman. In it he also confesses his belief that the entire story is probably unpublishable, and that even if published, full of flaws, and that in such a long work as that, people were bound to find parts that they didn't like in it.

In a sense, he's finally glad to be done with the writing which he started in 1936. I believe his letter to Waldman was around 1952 (I don't have the book handy). Yet, he's now resigned to the fact that it may never get published, and that if published, it might not appeal to more than a handful of people who would get it.

Of course, we are talking about Lord of the Rings, which as we know, has been more than a little bit successful.

I'm sure you all have something to say, and perhaps fine tuning is all that is needed.

Mr. Mistook will comprehend somewhat what my dilemma is. It's not that I have a bad idea. The problem is that in having a grand idea, it is like preparing a grand meal. It was in my power to order a pizza, or to put burgers on the grill, and serve that to the guests. But a grand fantasy is more akin to preparing a buffet, full of delicacies. And it may seem utterly unnecessary to bother doing that, but it is perhaps a genetic bent.

With a grand buffet, instead of burgers on the grill (meaning a simple story that gets to the point very quickly, which can be a great story) there is more chance that something will go wrong, and there is so much more preparation, and chance for a mess, and even a disaster. And so, you tie yourself to the kitchen, hoping for the very best, but at times, fearing the absolute worst, that you'll burn the stinking kitchen to the ground. Ah, how grand it is to think grand thoughts, but how absolutely overbearing it is to get them on paper, and organize them, and keep it under control.

[arkady]

It may be of further comfort to those on this board to know that if Tolkien had written LOTR today, he'd probably be right -- it wouldn't be published.

Those who have the Return of the King extended DVD set should watch the discussion of Tolkien's literary background on the supplemental disk. On it, one of the scholars points out that the trilogy probably wouldn't have been published in today's market, and that his structuring methods would probably have been deemed unacceptable.

[James D Macdonald]

Yes, everyone feels that way about their writing. "Dreadful, dreadful, dreadful."

(And if y'all haven't read The Unstrung Harp (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151004358/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) by Edward Gorey -- it's the best description of what it's like to write a novel that you're ever going to find, anywhere. Go get a copy.)

<HR>

As to whether The Lord of the Rings would be published today: A popular party game is to get a group of people, usually academics, together, and have them explain why X famous work (Moby-Dick, Huckleberry Finn, The Call of the Wild...) couldn't be published today.

[Jamesaritchie]

I think I was greatly helped early on by hearing an editor (I think it was Ben Bova)say it wasn't the writer's job to judge the quality of his own work, it was the editor's job. The best thing a writer could do was just write the work and send it to an editor so the editor could do his job.

This helped me quite a bit. From that point on I simply wrote fiction, fixed whatever I saw wrong, and just didn't worry about anything else. I found he was right. Stroies I think are great frequently get rejected over and over, while stories I think stink get accepted over and over.

So I learned to just write the things and send them in so the editor could do his job.

[maestrowork]

There's a caveat: the editor could be wrong.

[evanaharris]

There's a caveat: the editor could be wrong.

So could you.

[Jamesaritchie]

There's a caveat: the editor could be wrong.

Sure, but while one editor, any editor, can be wrong, I've found a dozen or more editors are always correct. One editor might be wrong and reject a piece, but if you keep submitting the piece, and if editor after editor keeps saying it's bad, then it's almost certainly bad.

I can certainly be wrong, but if I don't make the decision, it doesn't matter. In fact, I know I'm wrong at least as often as I'm right, if the opinion of editors and readers means anything.

So I've learned to not worry about it. I write it and submit it, and if an editor rejects it, I submit it somewhere else. Rinse and repeat.

[three seven]

Mr Mistook: If it's any consolation, I've been toying with the same idea - so count me as one who'd definitely want to read such a thing.

To answer the question: Don't we all repeatedly headbutt the desk after reading the crap we wrote yesterday?

[sc211]

Great quote. Here's some that have helped me in those times of doubt. Also, Ralph Keyes has a couple great books on the subject: The Courage to Write and The Writer's Book of Hope.

Painting and sculpture have been my ruin. I would have been better off making matches.
- Michelangelo

I came home from the studio and sat there going, “I hate myself, I hate my album.” But I always go through that. There’s no getting around it. You go home, you listen to it. You get mad at God, you hate yourself, you eat a lot of ravioli, and sleep a lot. That’s how it works. Then after a week, you start to return to earth.
- Billy Corgan

I had a lot of self-doubt. I’d walk in a bookstore and see all those books and think, “Who wants to read this story I’m writing? There’s no room for me up there.” There are always thousands of reasons not to do something. You can always think of more reasons not to do it than to do it.
- John Grisham

Well, it didn’t turn out very well. It’s only about forty percent of what I wanted it to be. I’m really disappointed in it.
- George Lucas, when Star Wars first came out

A person should not fault himself for becoming discouraged. It’s going to happen. It’s natural. But you still have to commit yourself. You have to do something every day for your art, or you’ll never be a success at it.
- James Lee Burke

[Nateskate]

Yes, I see a lot of wisdom in these sayings.

[maestrowork]

You may write crap. Oh by golly, do allow yourself to write crap. It's part of the process. You may not know whether something you wrote is good or bad, but you should know if you are a "good writer." If you don't know, find out -- and I don't mean to let some people on the street tell you "hey, you're good." Really find out for yourself whether you're good or not.

Good writers often write dreadful stuff, much like good actors give bad performances... no need to beat yourself up. You never really know if something you do is good or not -- besides, who's judging? Something critics hate might be loved by the readers, or vice versa. The only thing you can do and have control over is do your best. Write the best thing you can at any given time. Revise and polish. Then send it out.

[vstrauss]

Right this minute, in fact. Which is why I'm here and not writing.

- Victoria

[MacAl Stone]

Victoria, just wanted to mention I recently read Arm of the Stone, and enjoyed it tremendously. You're a hell of a writer.
;)
Thank you for the time you spend helping other writers.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Moments like this, I recall an entry on Neil Gaiman's blog (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2004/12/you-cant-park-here-look-i-dont-make.asp) that comforts me greatly. The comfort is in realizing that if even wildly successful writers have days like that, then having days like that isn't necessarily an indication that I shall never be successful. The greats write on through their doldrums; we shall simply have to do the same!

[Jamesaritchie]

I guess my problem with good and bad writing is this:

When I was younger and had good eyes, I spent some years making a living with weapons. Rifle, handgun, shotgun, bow, I fired hundreds, sometimes thousands, of rounds pretty much every day.

With a handgun, I spent a lot of time on ranges and in contests firing at sheets of typing paper. A standard sheet of typing paper is a good indicator of the heart/long kill zone on a person, and it's a hit or miss affair.

On a good day, I could put every round in a sheet of typing paper at twenty-five yards, and I'd hit it more often than not at fifty yards.

But every once in a while, every month or two, I'd have a day when I couldn't hit anything. I don't think I could have hit the target at three feet, and there was no discernable reason for why I was missing.

The thing is, I could always tell a good day from a bad day. If there were holes in the target, it was a good day, if there were no holes in the target, it was a bad day. Simple.

With writing, I usually can't tell. There are days when I'm sure I'm hitting the target, but I'm missing with every shot, and days when I think my aim is way off, but editors say every shot was a bull's eye.

I assume there are writers who can always tell a hit from a miss, but I'm definitely not one of them. I wish I could find a way to tell, but I haven't so far. All I can do is sit down and fire off a bunch of words, send it to an editor and let him add up the score.

It's frustrating.

[sc211]

When I was younger and had good eyes, I spent some years making a living with weapons.

You got a great first line to a novel there.

[vstrauss]

Thanks, Mac! That's a nice ego boost. I'm much in need of one.

- Victoria

[Philip Fullington Ripper]

"It is, I feel, only too likely that I am deluded, lost in a web of vain imaginings of not much value to others-in spite of the fact that a few readers have found it good, on the whole." J.R.R Tolkien, fro, Tolkien Letters #131

Well, I feel exactly like that today except for the "a few readers have found it good, on the whole" bit.

It's hard to be alone with yourself. And that's what writing is. Just you and you, sitting alone at your computer. It reminds me how I used to warn people that long car trips destroyed relationships. It's hard to like anyone when you're alone with them long enough.

I think a lot of the doubt we all have about our writing is more doubt about ourselves than about our work. We beat up on ourselves. We smack ourselves around.

I can be super hard.

[maestrowork]

When in doubt, just remember this:

Stephen King threw the ms. of Carrie in the trash.

Everyone of us needs a Tabitha King in his/her life.

[Jamesaritchie]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I was younger and had good eyes, I spent some years making a living with weapons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You got a great first line to a novel there.

I think you're right. I may just use that line for something.

[anatole ghio]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned him yet, but the writer of The Memory of Running is 57 and wrote 10 novels over the past 20 years, and is only now having his first novel published.

Persistence is king, talent is the fool!

- Anatole

[Coco82]

I feel like that sometimes. Sometimes it drives me crazy, but I deal and soldier on.

[Pellegrina Leoni]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"It is, I feel, only too likely that I am deluded, lost in a web of vain imaginings of not much value to others-in spite of the fact that a few readers have found it good, on the whole." J.R.R Tolkien, fro, Tolkien Letters #131<hr></blockquote>

Yup. I'm feeling that way about my current novel. Trying to shake it. At any rate, I need to start my next book.

[triceretops]

Writing is a sensitivity issue as much as a developmental craft or art. With other intellectual pursuits we don't quite have the concentrated focus that we have while writing fiction or non-fiction. This is because so much is on the line, like: basic intelligence, style, wisdom, viewpoint, technique, dialog, comedy or drama timing, and so many more elements.
The considerations are so vast and numerous, we often ask ourselves how in the hell could anyone be expected to perform brilliantly in each and every aspect of this business of writing. In short, we're overwhelmed. It's the immensity of it.
I think that we should slow down and realize that if we handle all of the elements in a good or even fair manner that, as a whole, the entire project really isn't suffering--the finished project is the sum of all the parts. And it's not really as bad as we think it is.
I can't count how many times I've damned myself for my current project. Knowing that my writing is adequate, I've slammed myself for bad sequencing and chronology, attempting to write narrative non-fiction for the first time. Then I bash myself for switching tense all over the place.
What I've decided to do is just write the dumb thing with that "white-hot-spark" then go back and attack each individual problem, rather than scatter myself around the script, nicking here, picking there, hoping that I'll eventually solve the whole problem at once. Call it precise surgery, rather than using a double-bladed ax. Patience, my boy.
I think James McDonald has a lot of this going for him, knowing when and how to "doctor" something. He's not hard on himself anymore, he's relaxed, but at the same time, precise and very organized. Yes, and that comes with time and practice--knowing that your expectations are overwhelming you is the first indication that you're sobering up, in a literary sense.
I once asked my father (who was a great writer) what he thought of my first short story. He looked at me and smiling said, "Well, I'll see you in million words."
I once asked Robert Bloch how much time it would take for me to be a writer. He said, "preferably, a life time."
I think that what they were saying was, "forget about the fast and the furious...we're in this for the long haul."
Sorry about the ramble here, toothache meds are sockin' it to me. Just this, to take the lion down, go after him claw at a time.

Tri

[mr mistook]

I think what I've learned in my time in this forum is the simple, yet golden lesson that fiction is hard.

You have a vivid idea in your head for a story, and in any other context, in any other style of writing, you could just out and say what it's all about.

I'm a brilliant writer when it comes to posting on the thread, or capturing a memoir. I'm a great writer for columns and essays, and any style that allows me to speak my mind up-front and honest-like.

What I've learned is that fiction is strict! It's all about what you CAN'T do. You can't tell. You must show. You can't dump information as if off the back of a truck. You must weave a backstory into the tenuous threads of dialogue. You can't indulge in much exposition. You must keep the reader in the moment. You can't stray from the point, you must keep to the plot, and the character development.

You can't get away with cheep motivations, cheep dialogue, or cheep anything. You can't even use "had" or "suddenly" or an exclamation point very many times before you're dead in the water.

Fiction is like boot camp. It makes the casual writers cry for their momma's (as I have) when you realize the gravity of waging a complex story under such harsh privations.

You're no authority in fiction. The fickle reader holds all the power. You must relentlessly play to the reader's impatience, you must constantly get to the damn point, in a fresh, "novel" way!

Fiction is a bitch! Editors have their whips at the ready. Get them into the live-action! Capture their interest! Keep them there! Give them escape! Don't be Cliche! Don't be obtuse or over-artsy.

With every word of every line - GRAB!

That's fiction.

it's not for the feint of heart.

[anatole ghio]

I once asked my father (who was a great writer) what he thought of my first short story. He looked at me and smiling said, "Well, I'll see you in million words."

So let's say there are 500 words per page, it would take 2000 pages to reach that total... and give 500 pages per book (I'm going for the higher figures on this), you won't be a good writer till you've written 4 novels.

I think that's an over-estimation, so let's say that as a writer, your first 100,000 words don't count!

So basically, your first novel is going to suck, but you should have gained some skill after that, assuming that you have some idea of how to improve your writing.

This is not to say that you will be Shakespeare, but that you will at least have a fundamental grasp of novel writing after the first 100,000 words.

- Anatole

[anatole ghio]

What I've learned is that fiction is strict! It's all about what you CAN'T do. You can't tell. You must show. You can't dump information as if off the back of a truck. You must weave a back story into the tenuous threads of dialog. You can't indulge in much exposition. You must keep the reader in the moment. You can't stray from the point, you must keep to the plot, and the character development.

It seems to me that fiction is whatever you can get away with! Certainly as styles change, what the reader will allow will also change, so that any list of what you can or cannot do is bound to be only a guideline, not something written in stone.

In your own example above, you give things that can't be done and things that can be done... personally, either could be true, depending upon the circumstance.



You're no authority in fiction. The fickle reader holds all the power. You must relentlessly play to the reader's impatience, you must constantly get to the damn point, in a fresh, "novel" way!

This seems to put all the emphasis on the reader, when given enough of a reputation, some artists are able to make the viewers come toward the work of art. For instance, when an artist has some standing, he can often times be a little more challenging and find that he will still engage the audience up to a point... or when a new artist has something that creates a buzz, he again gets more leeway from the audience.

These points illustrate to me that the power of the work is neither with the artist or the audience, but is something that is flexible and is likely to change from piece to piece, given also certain variables such as viability of the marketplace and cultural trends.

Fiction is a bitch! Editors have their whips at the ready. Get them into the live-action! Capture their interest! Keep them there! Give them escape! Don't be Cliche! Don't be obtuse or over-artsy.

With every word of every line - GRAB!

That's fiction.

I agree with your definition, if we are limiting ourselves to the commercial marketplace... but fiction itself is much broader than that, and I think the above definition misses as much as it gets.

- Anatole

[ChunkyC]

I found out that I was seriously clueless about my own work after completing my second novel.

After my first, I was ecstatic. After the second, I was contemplating going back to delivering pizzas for a living because it would be so much more fulfilling than writing. There were none of those moments where the words flow like water. It was a much greater struggle to get through, I constantly felt like I was trying to ride a boa constrictor bareback with no reins while wearing velour chaps, and when I got to the end, I felt like I had slammed into a wall instead of ridden off into the sunset.

Then my beta readers all told me it was a quantum-leap better than my first. Go figure.

PS -- I just realized that if things keep going this way, I should be publishable right around the time I'm ready to slit my own throat. :p

[mr mistook]

It seems to me that fiction is whatever you can get away with! Certainly as styles change, what the reader will allow will also change, so that any list of what you can or cannot do is bound to be only a guideline, not something written in stone.


Yes, but it's still hard. Maybe I was laying it on a bit thick in the last post, and being a bit dramatic, but I guess my point is that fiction doesn't come as naturally as simply speaking your mind, or pouring out your thoughts.

[Nateskate]

Generally speaking, I can't be objective right after I put something on paper. It looks great, because the concepts are still fresh in my mind. But when I re-read it after awhile, I realize that I said too much here, too little there, and that phrasing was awkward.

At some point, I realize I'd need to let the editor do the thinking, because I can get a little too critical.

Another thing, I see that what was good enough for me yesterday isn't good enough for me today. My guess is that many people wouldn't be able to tell my early writing from the most recent ones. I'd say that my style is a work in progress, and not by intention. It's just changing the more that I write. Perhaps with time, it will become rather fixed, but as of yet, I seem to write in an emerging style.