Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[ChunkyC]

Just a thought, Uncle Jim: I wonder if a place like fictionwise might be willing to post the final document as an e-book?

[maestrowork]

Just a thought, Uncle Jim: I wonder if a place like fictionwise might be willing to post the final document as an e-book?

Maybe PA will print that? :grin

HConn, congrats on being the 1000th post. You win a kiss from Elvis.

[James D Macdonald]

How about a PoD from CafePress?

Of course, I'd want to have it professionally edited first....

[ChunkyC]

:shrug Okay, obviously folks feel an e-book is a bad idea (or a joke). Personally Uncle Jim, a version of your posts that I could carry with me on my PDA would be an enormously valuable resource. I have a dial-up connection at home and repeatedly reviewing all your stuff online would cost me an arm and a leg. That's all I was thinking of. And since Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine publishes an electronic version of their magazine on fictionwise and has a link to them, I thought they must be pretty legit as far as e-publishers go.

Anyway, it was just a thought, Uncle Jim. They're your words to do with what you will. :)

[evanaharris]

If someone's got adobe acrobat, we could convert it to a .pdf, so people could download it (and view it on their palm pilots, etc.)

I'm clipping along at just over half-way there, btw, guys, should have the file to Jim in a couple of days, so he can edit himself.

Excellent, Mac. I'll be ready for it.

[wwwatcher]

I don't know... I may be wrong but I'm guessing Uncle Jim had something planned for this before he even began.

I guess it depends which chessman Jim sees himself as.

Faye:coffee

Question: Which one of these is Uncle Jim's group?

:thewave

:dancin

or

:cheer ???

[paritoshuttam]

Hi folks,

I am from India. Posting first time here.

I am using the third person POV. I can manage with a character's normal thoughts but I have problems when the character has to take decisions, has to do a lot of self-questioning.

Consider a scenario where character A has to decide between marrying character B and C. Obviously she will be thinking on the lines of is B better or C? I find I end up having a whole lot of question marks in such passages. Doesn't look good to me.

Any ideas how to handle it better? Using first person POV?

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[sfsassenach]

FWIW, Cathy Shaidle ["Relapsed Catholic" blogger] used Cafe Press to publish a booklet, and posted that she was very happy with the result.

[HConn]

Paritosh, change those questions to statements. Instead of self-questioning, have the character make definitive statements based on the answers to those questions (which she already knows, because she's asking herself :) ).

Because you're right. All those questions don't read well.

[maestrowork]

I agree with HConn. You can still ask questions without actually asking the "questions." E.g. if you have to ask the question, "Is B better than C? Which one should I choose?" You can rewrite it as: "I have no idea which one is better. I don't know how to choose."

[James D Macdonald]

You pretty much have three choices ...

Shorten the scene significantly -- only one question.

Show the scene from someone else's point of view.

Delete the scene and let your character's subsequent actions reveal her thoughts.

[James D Macdonald]

In my never-ending stream of copying my earlier posts from elsewhere: this is from <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/001541.html#001541" target="_new">Making Light</a>.

<hR>

Let's see if I can clarify a bit more about the difference between vanity publishing and recording your own music to sell after your gig:

There's no quality control in the world of vanity press publishing.

With the self-published musician, there is quality control. If the musician weren't at least half-way competent, he'd never have the gig in the first place to sell the disks after the show. And you've already heard his music, and you've liked it enough to want to have a bit of it to take home.

With the self-published fiction author, most times the manuscript is ... slush. No one would read it willingly.

The exception to this is in non-fiction. If you happen to be the world's foremost expert on some obscure subject, you can write and self-publish a monograph and have people pay you for a copy. If you're delivering lectures from the platform, you can say "Copies of my book are available at the back of the hall," and no one will blink. If you're written a local history, you can sell it in a local bookstore -- no interest anywhere else in the country, lots of interest right in that one location.

Note, though, that in all those cases there is quality control. You first have to have a reputation as the world's expert on something, or you have to have hired and filled the hall, or you have to have convinced the bookstore owner to carry your book. None of those things are easy.

If someone says "It's easy. Just give me your credit card...." that person doesn't have your best interests at heart.

<hr>

Another factor in quality of product in the vanity fiction area is the availablity of legitimate outlets.

If you were living in the 19th c. and you'd written the very best erotic novel in the world, it couldn't get legitimately published, and so would be privately printed. A fair number of the privately printed 19th c. erotic novels are pretty good.

Here, now, if you've written the very best erotic novel in the world, there are any number of legitimate, advance-and-royalty paying, sales in major bookstores, publishers who will be slavering to hear from you. Thus the only erotic novels that are vanity published are either a) very badly written, or b) of such small niche interest that it wouldn't repay publication (the erotic potential of women's right middle toes, and even then if the book is really the Best in the World, it could be legitimately published as Magic Realism and those who liked that sort of thing would get an extra bonus), or c) actively illegal (pre-teen bestiality incest, frex) (And some of those can be well-written too, if you can get past the squick factor).

Getting down to the main point: if you've written the greatest sword-and-sorcery novel in the world, lots of publishers will be lining up to publish you. If you've written a basically competent sword-and-sorcery novel, lots of publishers will be ready to publish you. If you've written a pretty-much-okay sword-and-sorcery novel and the timing's right, the book will get published, though perhaps after a few rejections.

Which means that the only sword-and-sorcery novels that you'll find from the vanity press are the ones where the author's only writing skill is the ability to write a check, and the very, very, exceedingly rare good book whose author was totally scammed. But no one will ever hear of that very, very rare book because readers and bookstores and everyone else go "avert! avert!" when they see the vanity label.

Very few read slush manuscripts for fun. No one reads a second slush manuscript for fun.

<hr>

I've been reading <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1560252758/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Gangs of New York</a> which has some interesting descriptions of con games and swindles from the 19th c., things like selling gold bricks, the banko game, and a varient on the pigeon drop.

In the varient, the con man approaches a fellow and offers to sell him a bag of counterfeit money for pennies on the dollar (one enterprising grifter sent out advertising flyers through the mail making the offer). The bag of money is shown, and the mark is invited to take a sample to any bank to have the bill checked out -- it's such a perfect counterfeit that no bank clerk can detect the fakery. The mark takes the bill, goes, and wow! It really does work! This is great stuff. He comes back, buys the whole bag of counterfeit money, and -- when he opens it -- finds only cut up newspaper. (Need I mention that the reason the counterfeit bill passes muster is because it isn't really counterfeit?)

(Another scam, not mentioned so far in that book at least, involves going to the racetrack and going around advising people about horses that are sure winners. The trick is that you recommend every single horse that's running in a given race to various people. In the course of talking with the mark, you slap him on the back, putting a chalk mark on his coat. After the race, you hang out at the pay window, and watch for people with your chalk mark on his coat. As they're counting their money you come up and say "Hey, remember me? I gave you that tip. How about a tip for me?")

Not too bad a scam.

<hr>

Back to the literary scams of the current day:

We have some nefarious deeds decribed here:

<A HREF="
http://www.writersweekly.com/warnings/helping.html" target="_new">http://www.writersweekly.com/warnings/helping.html</a>

And more about the Helping Hand Agency here:

<A HREF="http://www.sfwa.org/beware/general.html#titsworth" target="_new">http://www.sfwa.org/beware/general.html#titsworth</a>

Find out the name of the detective assigned to the case!

<HR>

Here's something:

Not to be confused with the well-known http://www.promedia.com/ we find http://www.promediainc.net/.

Promedia Entertainment has apparently been placing newspaper ads all over the place, selling their training materials.

Who knew that there was such a screaming shortage of script readers in Hollywood that folks who had taken a $50 videotaped course could get high-paying jobs working at home reading scripts?

<hr>
<hr>

And ... next, a grammar quiz:

Golly.

<a href="http://quizilla.com/users/BaalObsidian/quizzes/How%20grammatically%20sound%20are%20you%3F/" target="_new">How Grammatically Sound Are You?</a>

I, of course, am a Grammar God.

[MacAl Stone]

woo-hoo...I'm a Grammar God, too!

[allion]

I am also a Grammar God (but I still get twisted up by "lie" versus "lay" and all the variants between them).

I have these vivid memories of being in Grade 8 and gleefully outlining the parts of a sentence in different pencil crayon colours.

Yes, I was a strange kid...

:gone

[ChunkyC]

are we!

[PixelFish]

Er. Uncle Jim, at the risk of sounding terribly naive, what the heck is frex? I looked it up but only found a lot of non-English websites. (Not in the dictionary either.)

[James D Macdonald]

Frex = For Example (i.e., e.g.).

[PixelFish]

Ah. And here I thought it was something kinky I had never heard of.

(Context from Uncle Jim's previous post for those of you wondering how I confused "for example" with something kinky: it could be legitimately published as Magic Realism and those who liked that sort of thing would get an extra bonus), or c) actively illegal (pre-teen bestiality incest, frex) )

[jpwriter]

I am a grammar God! I have always been good at multiple choice. :snoopy
Jerry

[SRHowen]

Grammar god--guess that means I can keep my editing job.

Shawn

[maestrowork]

Gramma God I is. Truth, told shall be.

[wwwatcher]

Thanks for the quiz; I never would have thought I was a Grammar God!

"Frex"? Isn't that Shrek's second cousin twice removed?

Faye:grr

[MacAl Stone]

maybe "Grammar God" is the only score they give...

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_3.gif

[jeffspock]

I too was designated a GG :hail , though I am not sure I am worthy.

Out of curiosity, I went back and changed all 20 of my answers. My result was:

"You are an AVERAGE speaker of English.

Not much more to say about you..."

This makes me wonder.

[stefpub]

GG too, even if I like the occasional split infinitive and I try to forget the English quote rules that pollute my French.

[stormie267]

Stef, don't worry too much about split infinitives. That rule comes from Latin, where you can't split infinitives. Hey, Uncle Jim, maybe that could be a discussion!

[Joanclr]

Ha, I was just wondering that myself (yes, I got GG too). Either that or maybe we are all extra gifted around here :D Actually, I was disappointed that they did not give a breakdown of which were right and which were wrong. There were a couple I was tossing up between two and was curious to know if I got 'em right or not.

[Beaver]

I did not quite make the grammar god, but I got a cool picture of Mr. Miagi and Dainel-san. By the way... what is the plural of Mr.?

Beaver (Grammar Master) :party

[stormie267]

(Sounds weird, but the plural of Mr. is Messrs.)

[Lori Basiewicz]

I, too, am a Grammar God. Though I think I will consider myself a Grammar Goddess.

[stefpub]

In French: Monsieur / Messieurs

[aka eraser]

Average. :smack

Luckily I have a wonderful personality. :grin

[espz]

Hello! First post. Been lurking here a while, though!
I'm only a grammer master, not a god :( and am still having trouble with BIC.

But found this excellent link to comparing java programming with writing a western novel that I thought might be helpful to some people.

sep.stanford.edu/sep/jon/...p/oop1.htm (http://sep.stanford.edu/sep/jon/family/jos/oop/oop1.htm)

[SFEley]

Argh! I was just about to post that same link. I'm guessing we're both Slashdot readers...

Oh, and since I'm here: Hi, Jim. Great discussion you've got here. I thought you might like to know that my first big novel is under consideration with one of the top New York agents right now. Part of my ability to finish it stems from adapting your final exercise to me at Viable Paradise those many years back. Thank you for that.

(And I still owe you a beer. Possibly two.) >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[Yeshanu]

My religious side is saying that "Grammar God" is too much -- perhaps "Grammar Demi-God" or "Grammar Angel" would work. After all, I don't make the rules, I just follow them...

For those of you who are just average, go back and look at all possible ratings. You can click on it when your score comes up. There is one below "average", but we really dont want to know about it, do we? :gone

Anyhow, whatever your rating, if you keep learning, you'll be a Grammar God (or Goddess, or Angel) one of these days. Keep it up! :clap

Blessings,
Ruth

[Chris Goja]

*Phew! Gasp, gasp, gasp.*

They say Pheidippides dropped dead after he made it back home to whatever ancient Greek city he lived in, and it's not surprising, considering the distance he had gone to gossip...

I have to say that I know how he felt, because I've been playing catch-up with all of you for the last three or four weeks, and boy, has that been a marathon! :snoopy

I must be in better shape than I thought, though, because I'm feeling energized, and rearing to go. All those tips that Jim (and others) have provided throughout have only served to rev my engines, and now I want to contribute as well!

First of all, though, a truly heartfelt thank you to Jim and company for everything I've gleaned so far: My reading is completely different now that I actively look for what works and what doesn't, my chess game has improved no end since I got the Book (yes, I PLAY chess, surprising as that may be to some. It is something you can do with all those little wooden figures, apart from using them as metaphors...), and as soon as I have moved house I will start applying myself to BIC.

That aside, I would like to hear if anyone has anything interesting to say about humorous writing - I find it one of the most enjoyable - and difficult - things to do, and any tips and pointers would be very welcome.

Finally, for those of you who want to try your hands at chess this very minute, here's one of my favorite sites:

<a href="http://www.instantchess.com" target="_new">www.instantchess.com</a>

Have fun!

[Dancre]

Umm, i'm a bit of a master of grammar. but at least i'm not at the bottom of the list! well, back to my grammar lessons. :hat

[MiltonPope]

Another Grammar God here. This is the first time in my life anyone has complimented me on grammatical skill; most people are indifferent. It feels good. Well. Good.

--Milton

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Steve Eley, good to see you here!

Yes, I do have fun, and that's excellent news about your novel.

Now a minor brag of my own, and a digression.

First, the brag: We had two short stories come out last year: one original, one reprint. Both of the anthologies they appear in are listed here: <A HREF="http://www.voya.com/" target="_new">VOYA</A> (Voice of Youth Advocates) <a href="http://pdfs.voya.com/VO/YA2/VOYA200404BestSciFi.pdf" target="_new">Best Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror 2003</a>.

That's a major review venue, and it's nice to be noticed. The specific anthologies are <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/new_skies.htm" target="_new">New Skies</a> and <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/crusade_fire.htm" target="_new">Crusade of Fire: Mystical Tales of the Knights Templar</a>.

In further good news, today's mail brought a royalty check for $17.50. Not much, but those checks have been arriving every six months for the past nine years for one short story in one anthology. It does add up over time; no further work required on our part.

This brings us to the digression:

Anthologies.

Here's the way fiction anthologies work:

An editor pitches an anthology idea to a publisher. ("We'll get Stephen King, John Grisham, Tom Clancy, and a few other people to contribute....")

The publisher likes the idea, and writes a contract with the editor, sending the editor an advance. Standard royalties, you know the deal.

The editor then sends letters to King, Clancy, and Grisham, all of whom write back polite notes saying words to the effect of "So sorry, much too busy."

At this point the "a few others" clock in, because one of them can be you. The editor lets it be known that he's reading for an anthology, with the following title, following theme (can be anything from very specific to very broad), that the deadline is this, the lengths requested are that, and off you go.

The editor selects from this vast slush-heap (the size of the slush heap varying by how well known he is, and how widely noised-about the anthology is) the dozen or so stories he wants. Edits them, all that.

If the editor is canny, he will pay on acceptance (you get a better quality of slush that way). If he's stingy, he'll pay on publication. If he's a moron who has spent all the advance money on a flashy website, or a cheap bastard who has decided to keep the money all for himself, there won't be any money at all (don't submit to those anthologies, kids!).

The stories come in, the payments go out (3-5 cents a word, whatever).

The anthology is printed. Most times it sinks without a trace, you take your story and try to resell it to other markets.

Sometimes, though, the anthology earns back its advance. There are royalties! Hurrah!

The editor gets those royalties. You haven't signed a contract with the publisher, you've signed your contract with the editor.

Generally, the editor keeps 50% of each royalty check, and divides the money among all the authors who contributed to the anthology. There are two ways of splitting it up: one is by the page (pro rata, this is called). So if the royalties are $100, the editor keeps $50, and divides the rest among the authors -- your story is ten pages out of a 350-page book, you get $1.43.

The other way is by dividing the money by the number of stories. Same $100 royalty, same $50 to the editor, you your ten-page story is one of a dozen stories in the book, you get $4.16.

The contract you have with the editor will specify how the royalties will be divided; pro rata or per story.

That's the way it's supposed to work.

Now I've had stories where the very first royalty payment was over $800. Selling to a book that sells well is a great way to live. I've had stories that have kept contributing small amounts to the household grocery fund for years -- over a decade in one case. Selling to a constantly-in-print anthology is nice.

What you don't want to do is sell all rights for a one-time-flat-fee (or, even worse, for nothing at all). You want to have profit participation in all of your words, and keep the rights yourself.

End of digression.

[ChunkyC]

Today's to do list....

1: print previous post from Uncle Jim
2: 3-hole punch printout
3: insert in huge binder with 'Uncle Jim's Wisdom' hand-written on the cover. Use wife's lipstick if you have to, just make sure it's legible.
4: anxiously await more nuggets

Thanks again, Uncle Jim. :thumbs

[Hannibal]

Hi I'm new here. I only found this forum this very day. I like to be a writer. I tryed it many times, but gave up :( now i wan't to do it realy and seeking help...I like this forum and i like Uncle Jim too :-) I hope you can help me a bit... Thxx!!

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Hannibal --

If you haven't started from the beginning of this thread ... maybe you'd like to?

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://vanveen.livejournal.com/186282.html" target="_new">We'll Always Have Paris</a>

Like I keep saying: Celebrities are in a different ball game from the rest of us.

[ChunkyC]

I wonder if Jane Austen Doe is her ghostwriter? :grin

[Hannibal]

Hi!! I'm fully new here and i hope i can find some help here how to start writeing.. I started a few works before but never finished them. Come to 100 pages almost but ended there always...I have many ideas i got a big fantasy nad i can wirte but i can't start and I'm lack of will power :( Can you help me oncle Jim ???

[Hannibal]

I bit of net problems ... i did not noticed that my previce repley had been posted... sorry... Uncle Jim i will read this whole forum i assure you :-)

[maestrowork]

One way to fight procrastination and force yourself to finish what you started is to set deadlines. Have a writing partner or someone who will push you to finish something every week. Say 3000 words a week... maybe 5000 a week... or whatever. The point is to move towards the end goal and keep you writing.

It also helps if you know how your story is going to end. Otherwise, if you hit a dry spell in the middle of your story and you have no idea what the ending should be, it feels like there's nothing to look forward to... and most people would just abandon their stories right there. If you can see the end... it gives you better motivation to get to that end.

[Hannibal]

I have a question. When you have and idea for a book, do you write it down, develope it constract it and when you have the whole concept you begin to write or just write ahead and see what comes out ?

[Hannibal]

I see ! So you would prefer to wirte the whole concept down first, and then start to write...

For the push...I have to find someone aye :)

[maestrowork]

Personally, I'd do a general outline (but nothing detailed like Uncle Jim's). Usually I know what the beginning, middle and end should be, but not every detail. Part of the fun of writing a story is to let your characters whereever they want to go, but I'd still like to know where the story will ultimately take me. What are the central themes? Who are these characters (more may come later)? Etc.

An analogy I use is: Planning a road trip:

1. What are the themes of my trip: Scenic drive? Hit all the major cities? Visit friends and relatives?
2. Who are my main and secondary characters? (what kind of car am I driving? etc.)
3. Starting point? Destination (approximate)? I know I'll be starting in New York and end up somewhere in California, but that too may change. But at least you have an idea.
4. Which general directions are you going to go? North? South?
5. Map out some MAJOR set pieces... sort of like intermediate destinations... I'd really like to see Yellowstone Park... and the Rockies... if you don't plan them ahead, you may never get there.

Then just jump into the car and drive. Have fun. If you end up in Oregon, that's fine. At least you get somewhere.

[Hannibal]

I see. I got the idea. :) Well here where i live there will be a novell contest and i will join i think. It must be min 2 max 20 pages long. I can make that :-) Whis me luck :D


Oh and sorry for grammer...I'm from hungary ... my english is not the finest :-)

[Betty W01]

M, I like your analogy. I don't write novels, but if I did, your trip map idea sounds promising. At least, better than an outline, which the mere thought of causes me to go into a coma |I

[qatz]

Good luck to you, my friend. Tell us how Hungary is some time when you have more leisure.

PS. Betty, thanks for letting me know my most effective weapon if I ever get mad at you again .... the old Outlines Article!!! Bwahhahahahah!

[Betty W01]

|I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[maestrowork]

Betty, outline. Outline.

Outline. 1, 2, 3.

Outline again.

[SRHowen]

I do not outline, and I have written 9 books now that way. NO they are not published--yet, my agent is working on that.

If you have an idea and running with it seems the right thing to do--go with it. If outlining seems the right thing to do--then outline.

You have to find what works for you.

Shawn

[James D Macdonald]

I've gone into outlining several times upthread.

Basically, the old Roman numeral/letters/numbers outline style is particularly useless for novels, IMHO.

I like things a lot more organic.

The roadtrip/map idea is interesting, and might be useful. As long as you aren't doing it literally.

The way to finish a work is to set aside a time every day during which you do nothing but write. You don't have permission to stop for any reason, or to rewrite, until you've reached THE END. This too is explained in more detail upthread.

While I'm sure details about life in Hungary would be fascinating, I don't think this is the thread to put them in.

[Hannibal]

Thx for good wishes friend ;-) Well besides uncle jim-s words i would like to write an anecdote here. Hungary is like pizza, if you eat it the first time, you find it amizing, when you eat too much your stomec will acke :) It's good until you live here :) Uncle Jim i thank you for the advise i will take it. I have to pick some time thouth me school steals all of it :( Well but i finish this year and will have all the time :) Besides i'm 23 years old :-) Can i be a writer at this age ? Bye all have to go!

[Hannibal]

Ohh forgot to ask something...What is an outline ? bye

[Stephenie Hovland]

Hannibal. Go up to "search" and type in "outline." You'll find plenty of links there. Also Go back and read this thread from the beginning to the end. You will find answers.

BTW, people outline differently. There isn't one correct answer.


Now, go look.

Stephenie

[Chris Goja]

Hi Jim et al.

I thought I'd share a few thoughts with you on print-on-demand and self-publishing. Now, I know that it is generally frowned upon, and that it is seen as a second rate way of getting rubbish published that would normally not find its way out of the slush piles even with the help of a good hemorrhoid cream (think about it.), but I would argue that there are exceptions.

I have published a book myself with the help of an internet-based PoD company, because I wanted to give my father a book written by me on his 60th birthday, and there was no way that I was going to get it accepted by an agent, let alone a publisher in the time available to me before his big day (a few months), if ever - the book is approximately a hundred pages of rhymed viking saga in Swedish, in case you were wondering - and so I swallowed my pride and went to them.

The book was published and presented to dad amidst great rejoicing, and that could have been the end of things, but a couple of really good reviews later (there are publications in Sweden reviewing virtually every new book that hits the market, for the benefit of libraries and bookstores. I don't know if this is true elsewhere.) and all of a sudden my sales are well into triple digits.

I know that may not sound like much to most of you, but in a small market like Sweden, and taking into account that nothing is as difficult to market as poetry, this is not bad. Besides, it doesn't really matter to me that I'm never going to make much money out of it - just seeing the book in a library or in a bookstory gives me a buzz like I-dunno-what, and it would never have happend if it weren't for self-publishing!

Sure, if you write something that is more easily digestible for the dread Market, then by all means go to the agents and get them to sell your book for you, all I'm saying is: there are other ways, too.


Cheers,

Chris

[James D Macdonald]

Sure, Chris, there are exceptions. Publishing in general is one big exception.

You had a good, valid reason to self-publish. You wanted a limited number of copies by a certain date. That your book sold outside of your immediate family is a plus.

Poetry is one of the genres where self-publication is traditional.

As far as using PoD self-publication or vanity publication as a way to reach the general reading public, though ... I wouldn't recommend it. "The race is not to the swift nor the victory to the strong, but that's the way the smart money bets."

<hr>

Note on my use of the word "genre" here. There are four genres: Poetry, rhetoric, drama, and fiction.

<hr>

In other depressing news, the Garfield movie novelization is out. Those of you who have been trying to perfect your craft, and finding the frustration of submitting/rejection/submitting again wearing on the nerves will look at that book (or, worse still, try to read it ... a prize to anyone who makes it all the way to the end of chapter one!) and despair.

That book reads like it was written by a pro over the course of a long weekend, fueled by a pot of coffee and a case of beer; either that or it was written by the producer's cousin who always wanted to write a book.

That book was not published because it was an outstanding piece of literature. It was published because a Hollywood movie gets a novel (paid for out of the advertising budget). Pay no attention to this; it's not part of the set of things that are under your control. Rather, think that the money Hollywood paid to have that book published will help pay your advance, and the money Hollywood is paying the bookstores for placement of that book will help pay the salaries of the clerks who will recommend your book to their customers.

And think that if you get a reputation as a writer who's easy to work with, who can reliably hit deadlines and come in on-length, that someday you may be the pro who gets that movie deal; a five figure advance for a long weekend's work, fueled by coffee and beer.

[James D Macdonald]

An outline is a planning document. Some people find them useful in constructing a novel.

[maestrowork]

An associate of mine write those books. Seven days after the OJ trial verdict he completed a book for his editor... he wrote 24/7, living on coffee and cigarettes for a whole week. He also wrote books on many "current events." Pay was good -- but I don't envy his lifestyle. He was basically a writing machine. He doesn't like to write much anymore.

Yes, I tell myself I am going to be a novelist. But not at the expense of my creativity and happiness and enjoyment as a writer.

p.s. Uncle J, did you read the companion book to "Terminator 3"? Talk about depressive...

[James D Macdonald]

Uncle J, did you read the companion book to "Terminator 3"?

I darn-near wound up writing it. But ... it didn't look like the fun-to-money ratio was right on that one, and based on what I heard afterward I was right. Dodged the bullet on that one.

[Hannibal]

Thx for the word definition. Can i some where take a look at your works ? I would like to see what kind of books you folks write...Or if i can't see them then pls tell me a short tale of them :-)

[Chris Goja]

I thought the companion book to "The Godfather" was pretty good...


*running for cover*



Just kidding, people!

[Chris Goja]

On a more serious note, Jim, I was wondering what your thoughts are on fan fiction; some writers seem to loath it, others laud it, and most just seem to apply the ostrich technique to the whole issue. Do you see any merits in it? And, more to the point, would you consider it if sent as part of an application to VP?

I have personally written quite a few fantasy stories set in/on Terry Pratchett's Discworld, and if nothing else I feel that this can be a good way of findig your own style - you get away from the problem of creating characters from scratch, and can consentrate on other elements, such as plot and story...

Again, no money in this, since it can't be published without violating intellectual property rights, of course - and I realise that I'm starting to sound like a communist here, with all my non-commercial stuff - but still lots of fun to be had, in my not-so-humble opinion.


Chrisx

[Yeshanu]

I just finished cutting and pasting all of the bits of this thread that I personally found relevant. :snoopy FYI, the document is 97 pages long.:jump

Ruth

[evanaharris]

good things come to those who wait. There's currently a massive project going on to compile the thread into indexed website form.

(shrugs) glad you got it, though.

[James D Macdonald]

My thoughts on fan fiction?

Well, why not ask me to walk through a minefield instead?

It can be useful when you're practicing at home alone, when you're doing exercises creating plots using predefined characters. However ... that's for you, at home.

You'll eventually have to create your own characters, too. Why not now?

As far as submission material to Viable Paradise, I would rather see something of your own, even if it's less polished, rather than a fan piece.

[maestrowork]

Pardon my ignorance, what exactly is fan fiction?

[evanaharris]

Maestro, fan fiction is new stories based around pre-established characters. Take the Star Wars novels as examples of fan-fiction that actually gets George Lucas' stamp of approval.

Most of it's pretty bad. (Harry Potter erotica, anyone?) But some of it can be okay. Like Jim said, it's alright to do it for practice, but why not make up your own characters?

[ChunkyC]

The fan fiction thing can get pretty weird. I'm aware of a line of fanfic erotica stories based on Mr. Spock from Star Trek.

Don't ask me how I know that. :grin

[James D Macdonald]

I'm aware of a line of fanfic erotica stories based on Mr. Spock from Star Trek.

A goodly number of them featuring Mr. Spock and Captain Kirk as gay lovers. Let's not get into a big discussion of fanfic, okay?

People write it. It's okay for you to write it, if you're doing it as an exercise in story construction and plot, where you don't have to come up with your own original characters and backgrounds. Just don't publish it.

(Yes, yes, I know all about the parody and fair-use defenses in copyright infringement suits. This isn't the time or place to discuss them. If you want to write and publish fan fiction, what you do is become a professional writer, then let it be known to the people who own the rights that, if they want to have a novel set in some TV or movie world, you're available. There are lines of Star Trek and Star Wars novels. (In earlier times there were Bonanza novels, Man From U.N.C.L.E. novels, and Brady Bunch novels. I kid you not.) I don't think that J. K. Rowling will want anyone to write a line of Harry Potter novels for her, but hey, stranger things have happened.)

First, work on your own stories: your own characters, your own situations.

[Chris Goja]

Och, weel, as us kilt-wearing folk say...

Seeing as how I was responisble for bringing the subject up in the first place, maybe I should try to end it by getting on with something else entirely:

I have really enjoyed your illustrations (as I choose to think of them) of DIY romance writing, Jim - the chess game, model, ship, etc - but I would really like to see you DO it. I mean, say you have to write a fantasy short story and it's due tomorrow; how do you go about it?

Spin a yarn for us, Uncle Jim...! Pleease...!! *making bambi eyes*

[James D Macdonald]

You aren't asking for much, are you, Chris?

Okay, open with a noble knight riding along the way. He's got a prancing white horse, a noble gleam in his eye, a hawk on his wrist.

There he goes. Whizz! A crossbow bolt comes out of the underbrush. Hits him in the jaw, he's down, he's out.

The gent with the crossbow comes out of the brush, walks up to the noble knight's body, takes the money purse from the knight's belt. Opens it, takes out three silver pence. Says "Next time, pay your gambling debts."

Leaves the rest of the money, all the rich trappings.

Next, the knight's sword gets picked up by a peasant. He has no use for a sword, but he has a need for a new coulter for his plow. Blacksmith puts it on the plow.

The knight isn't dead, but he's hurt bad. He recovers, but never again is able to speak nor eat solid foods.

The three pieces of silver are melted to make nails to hold together a small wooden chest.

The bread made with the grain grown from the field plowed with that sword has mystic properties.

The knight becomes a monk, goes begging. He's got religion. He can hardly talk, but he can preach.

The monk eats some of the bread, and is cured. He cuts out his own heart, and puts it in the wooden box. He carries it with him.

The kingdom which the knight is no longer protecting is under siege by the Powers of Darkness. (That is, it's so dark that wheat won't grow. Bad weather, bad crops. Only the one enchanted field is still producing.)

The monk determines to find the source of the bad weather-luck. He goes into the wilderness. There he finds an old woman who is starving. He offers her his heart which is in the box. She eats it, and becomes a) strong, b) well, and c) the guy with the crossbow back from the first page.

The monk is now healed, has his heart back, and is able to talk. He returns to where he was heading back on page one, where he becomes the rightful king. The bad weather is over. The enchanted field is never seen again. There is much rejoicing.

The end.

<hr>

That's a short story. That's a lime pie. For a novel, then's the ship and the chessgame and the house and knot.

<hr>

So, death and rebirth, journey, power of threes, king's health linked to the land's health, and the sacrament of the Eucharist, all rolled together. After this it's just typing.

[SFEley]

I want to know what happened to the hawk on his wrist.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[James D Macdonald]

I want to know what happened to the hawk on his wrist.

Who did you think was telling the story?

[Chris Goja]

Blimey.


Full points for fulfilling weird requests, certainly... *big smile*

Is this a story you would consider writing? What I mean to say is: having composed the recipe for your pie, do you have enough faith in the general munchability of the hypothetical end product to actually start mixing it, or do you continue adjusting the recipe (the ingredients, amounts etc) before trying to bake one?

When you've answered that I will ask you to write a novel. Kidding.

[Joanclr]

Uncle Jim, you mentioned the "power of threes" in your story footnote. Might I ask what that is?

[James D Macdonald]

Tell ya what, Chris -- now you can go out and buy some of my short stories. And buy some of my novels, too.

(You want to see me write a novel? I'm doin' it every day. Check your bookstores.)

This is quite enough to start <strike>baking the pie</strike> writing. When you get to The End, revision and rewrite, make it all smooth.

Once it's done as well as you can make it, send it out to markets likely to buy it. For cash.

That idea looks like about a 7,500 word idea.

<hr>

The power of threes:

In Western society, Three (http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Numerology.pdf) is a very powerful number. Look at all the things that come in threes. Ready, set, go. Three is the number of perfection. Three rings for the elven kings. The Trinity. The two wicked stepsisters plus Cinderella. Three wishes. Christmas Past, Christmas Present, Christmas Yet-To-Come. The Fates. The Wyrd Sisters.

Pretty much everything that doesn't come in threes comes in sevens. (Or nines, which is three threes. Or forties -- which means A Whole Bunch.)

These things are embedded deeply in our culture. If you use them, your reader won't know why, but your reader will think that this is right.

[Hannibal]

Uncle Jim your're absolutly fabules :-) Sucking a short story like this from your little toe. When i was roleplaying back there when i was a kid i found out storys slike this many times just right then whn we started. :-) Ohh and you haven't answerd my question...Am i too young to be a writer whit 23 years ?

Thx !



"The life is a bad game, but whit a mighty fine grafic!!"

[James D Macdonald]

Hannibal:

Too young to be a writer at 23?

I started when I was twelve.

I sold when I was 35.

Everyone's path is different.

If you are sitting in your chair, making your fingers move on your keyboard, putting words on paper you are a writer.

What defines a writer is writing. Go. Write.

<hR>

Chris: Your assignment is to take that very bare-bones outline and make it into a 7,500 word story by the end of the week. I grant you all rights.

You must write all the way to THE END. (If it turns out different from that outline that's okay!)

Lay it aside for a week.

Read it aloud.

Rewrite it for a week.

Send it to trusted friends for a week.

Revise it for a week.

Send it out (to paying markets only) until Hell won't have it.

That's your penance for making Bambi-eyes.

[Chris Goja]

I will, Jim.

Is there any particular one that you are especially proud of, that you would want me to read above all others? I'm sure stories are like kids in that you love them all, because they're yours, but still...?

Oh, and since we're on that subject: On the odd chance that there are any readers out there interested in viking sagas AND read Swedish, here's the link to my magnum opus:

www.books-on-demand.com/s...asp?id=440 (http://www.books-on-demand.com/shop/BookDetail.asp?id=440)


You never know....

[Chris Goja]

Just to clarify, the last "I will" was a promise to buy something you've written.

Now, if I take my punishment and write this, will you read it and help me with it? I'll swear never to make bambi eyes again......

[James D Macdonald]

I have to go write another chapter in a fantasy novel set in the America Civil War, but before I go....

If you want one in Swedish, <a href="http://www.bokus.com/cgi-bin/more_book_info.cgi?pt=childrens-fictionchildren&ISBN=9132143346" target="_new">Främlingens Önskan</a>. I liked that one best of the entire series, though I liked the series quite a bit. That's the series that was based very formally on a six-pointed Celtic knot.

It's a short -- middle grades -- novel.

Here's another novel y'all might like: <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/ad_excerpt.htm" target="_new">The Apocalypse Door</a>.

You can find a short story I like very much here: <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/new_skies.htm" target="_new">Uncle Joshua and the Grooglemen</a>.

Buy one! Better still, buy a dozen! They make excellent gifts!

Here, for free, a complete story: <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/NEWYORK.HTM" target="_new">The Last Real New Yorker in the World</a>. It should be pretty obvious to you why it'll never be reprinted.


<hr>

Want to see our Very First Short Story? It's in this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060267984/ref=nosim/madhousemanor). That was the first story we submitted, and the story sold to the first place we sent it to. (Okay, everyone, you can turn <span style="color:lime;">green</span> with envy now.)

Want to see the first story I wrote after the Long Dry Period (between when I was 19 and when I was 30) when I wrote no fiction? It eventually got published here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1880448564/ref=nosim/madhousemanor). The story is "The Little Prune that Couldn't Talk."

It too sold to the first place I sent it ... it's just that I waited nearly twenty years to submit it.

[Chris Goja]

It's well after midnight here, so my oil's all burnt. Here's the first chapter/scene of my assignment, for what it's worth. As you can see I've altered the outline already. Oh, and I have ordered one of your books. Do feel free to comment:



The man was sitting in front of a camp fire, the glow of the flames playing over his leathery face and hands, as well as the blade that he was sharpening. His hand moved slowly, methodically as he ran the stone up first one side of the sword, then the other. Nothing could be heard apart from the crackle of the fire and the swishing noise produced by pumice on steel. Outside of the circle of light that the flames cast, there was only dark, silent forest for miles and miles.

It was a good blade, and it had served him well in more battles and skirmishes than he cared to remember. When he was done honing both edges, he tried it with a calloused thumb, making sure that it was as sharp as he wanted. Others might make do with inferior weapons, but they were the tools of his trade, and it didn’t do to get sloppy. Of course, things might have been very different if the gods had wanted it, but that didn’t do to think too much about. If there was one thing Regan had had to learn, then that was it.

He stood and looked along the edge, satisfied that there were no notches. Then he sheathed it in the plain scabbard that hung from a low branch. Regan grimaced a little. There were some specks of rust on the inside of the metal opening at the top, and that was no good. More than once had he seen fighters get cut down because their weapons had stuck when they tried to draw them, and he had no intention of joining their ranks. But some sheep fat would soon take care of that.

He was feeling jittery, which was unusual for Regan. You didn’t survive long in his business if you couldn’t keep your nerves in check, and he had worked as a freelance for years now, taking his money from whoever was willing to pay for his services. Regan’s horse, tethered near a couple of bushes, obviously felt it to, its proud head moving nervously back and forth. There was probably a storm coming, he thought. Clouds were gathering, bulbous and dark even in the night. That’s all it was, he told himself. Just mother nature, even though she could be a real mother from time to time, he added silently. He forced a smile, trying to shake the omnious feeling he had.

Ever since he had had to leave that last town he had had felt as if he weren’t alone, as if he was being followed, but that was nonsense. No one could track him without him noticing, he knew, and yet… Oh, well. Best to get tucked in for the night. It’d be a long day tomorrow as well. Regan walked over to the stallion, talking quietly all the while to calm it down, but the animal could sense his owner’s uneasiness and snorted and danced. regan would just have to leave it alone and get the rest of his chores done. The saddle and his armour were already taken care of, piled against a huge tree. All that was left for him was make sure there was enough firewood to last until morning. He ventured to the edge of the circle of light where he had seen a couple of good, dry fallen branches earlier on, when all of a sudden he froze. There was definitely something wrong!

Regan turned around to get his sword, cursing under his breath for not having it closer to hand, and looked up to see a man in studded leather armour standing across the clearing, brandishing a cocked crossbow, aimed straight at his face.

“Regan of Doonsbury, I presume? Such an honour to meet you. I’m a great admirer of yours.”

“Bloody strange way of showing it!” Regan spat. There was nothing he could do. The distance between them was too great to cover, and besides, the fire was right in the middle of his way, preventing a full-on attack. He had to play for time. “Who are you and what do you want?”

“Tut, tut.” The other man was smiling, obviously enjoying himself. “Sir Ganvorn didn’t appreciate you leaving without saying goodbye. And you have something that belongs to him, don’t you?” Both men glanced over to where the saddle bags were lying, clearly visible underneath the chain mail that was draped over them.

“What’s it to you?”

“Oh, nothing, nothing. Only we’re in the same business, you and I. He’s got a contract out on you. Must really want that little souvenir you took, I guess,” the assailant shrugged. The crossbow didn’t so much as waver from its target.

Regan said nothing. This was worse than he had thought. The man was obviously a professional. The mere fact that he had managed to trace Regan unnoticed was unnerving enough, but if he was as good with his weapon as Regan suspected, then he was really in trouble.

“Surely we can make a deal?” he said, trying to sound confident. “Whatever Ganvorn’s offered you I’m sure I can match it.” Regan moved cautiously forward, taking care to show his outstretched hands.

“That’s close enough,” the attacker said, tensing a little, but not backing away. Good, Regan thought. Confidence can be a wonderful thing, but it can also get you dead.

“Well, I can’t show you my appreciation unless you let me take out my purse, and unless I show you where it is, there’s no way you’re ever going to find it. I hid it in amongst the trees, see?”

“Nice try, Regan, but we both know you’re bluffing.”

“Am I? It’s just over there,” Regan said, pointing to an imaginary spot slightly behind his attacker. It was a move borne in desperation, but it was all Regan had got. As the unknown attacker’s eyes glanced in the direction Regan had indicated for the briefest of moments, Regan kicked the burning logs and dove for cover. The other man cursed and hopped backwards to avoid the logs, but didn’t shoot as Regan had hoped. A true professional, indeed, Regan thought, rolling and coming up next to the tree where his sword was hanging. He grabbed the hilt, familiar and comforting, just as the price hunter regained his balance, but he was faster, and smiled triumphantly as he yanked to get it out of its scabbard.

Nothing happened.

The blasted thing was stuck! Rust, was all Regan had a chance to think before the stranger took aim and shot. The bolt buzzed like an angry insect and hit Regan in the eye. The last thing he was aware of was a blinding flash of pain as the world spun around him, and then there was darkness.


------------------------------------------------------------
G'night y'all!

[James D Macdonald]

a) Perhaps more appropriate in one of the "Share Your Work" groups.

b) We won't revise until after you've gotten to THE END.

c) Keep going.

[Chris Goja]

Gotcha. More anon. 'night.

[qatz]

keep with this. let's see where it goes. but don't post it all on AW. not now, at least. if jim decides to use it, that's another story. i assume you're still crackin' on it.

signed,

Mostly Unswayed by Doe Eyes

[Hannibal]

Well i wrote 12 pages today. I finaly understud what an outline is :-) And it will help me much. Uncle Jim. Your calling to be a writer inspires me. When i will sell (and damn i will sell :-) ) a book i surly will thank you in it like, special thx to Uncle Jim :-))))))) Good night folks :-):thumbs

[maestrowork]

Good work! Keep writing. That's way to do it. You're ahead of a lot of us already.

p.s. the power of # is a powerful one. In the western world it's the numbers 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. In eastern culture it's usually 4, 8, etc. (Joy Luck Club is filled with "4" -- four families, four mothers, four daughters, mahjogg has 4 players, 2 sisters, etc.) The number 1 and 2 are important in all cultures.

I just realized my novel is filled with 3's. I didn't do it consciously, but it's there. It's a fun observation.

[qatz]

found 4 and 7 most powerful.

[maestrowork]

To me, the number $10,000,000 is the most powerful.

[Hannibal]

I agree whit maestro fully :rofl :ha

[Hannibal]

Have any of you ever written more then 10-20 pages that were perfect and don't needed to be overwritten?

Or have you too the problem that you write something and when you read it throu you think, Holy sh*t did i just wrote this crap ????

[James D Macdonald]

It all turns to crap between first writing and reading. That's why you put the work in your desk drawer for a month after you've written it, to let it age and let all the crap drain off.

[James D Macdonald]

First posted here. (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=521.to pic&start=41&stop=41)

And recopied here.


<hr>

From today's news:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>


She's a bestselling author -- at 15
Flavia Bujor's European hit now in America

Thursday, April 22, 2004 Posted: 11:37 AM EDT (1537 GMT)


NEW YORK (AP) -- After a few years of starting stories that never got finished, Flavia Bujor decided it was time she completed something.

So at the age of 12, she decided to write a novel. She was 14 when the book was published.

<hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/books/04/22/teen.author.ap/index.html" target="_new">CNN</a>


This is relevant in that a) publishing at an early age isn't impossible, but b) it's so rare that it's newsworthy when it happens.

So don't worry.

A couple of aphorisms:

Plot will get you through times with no style better than style will get you through times with no plot.

This comes from one of the smartest editors I know:

Plot is a literary convention. Story is a force of nature.


<hr>

Literary tastes change.

Here are the best-sellers of the 1860s:

1860 Edward S. Ellis, Seth Jones
1860 Miriam Coles Harris, Rutledge
1860 Ann Stephens, Malaeska
1863 E.D.E.N. Southworth, The Fatal Marriage
1863 A.D.T. Whitney, Faith Gartney's Girlhood
1864 E.D.E.N. Southworth, Ishmael
1864 E.D.E.N. Southworth, Self-Raised
1865 Mary Mapes Dodge, Hans Brinker and His Silver Skates
1867 Horatio Alger, Ragged Dick
1867 Augusta Evans, St. Elmo
1868 Louisa May Alcott, Little Women

Okay, of those you've seen a movie version of Hans Brinker, you've heard of a "Horatio Alger story" (without ever having read one), and you've read Little Women, right?

Look at the list from a hundred years ago:

1900 Mary Johnston, To Have and To Hold
1901 Winston Churchill, The Crisis
1902 Owen Wister, The Virginian
1903 Mrs. Humphry Ward, Lady Rose's Daughter
1904 Winston Churchill, The Crossing
1905 Mrs. Humphry Ward, The Marriage of William Ashe
1906 Winston Churchill, Coniston
1907 Frances Little, The Lady of the Decoration
1908 Winston Churchill, Mr. Crewe's Career
1909 Anonymous [Basil King], The Inner Shrine

Of those, you've seen the movie version of The Virginian and know one line from it ("When you call me that, smile"), and you've never heard of any of the other books or authors, right? (This Winston Churchill wrote historical romances set during the American Civil War and shouldn't be confused with Sir Winston Churchill, the British prime minister during WWII.)

Literary fame is fleeting; times change, tastes change, and the natural state of a book is Out Of Print.

[James D Macdonald]

Here ya go, guys: <a href="http://www.caderbooks.com/bestintro.html" target="_new">Bestseller lists</a>, 1900-1995.

How many of those books do you recognize? How many have you read? How many are still in print?

You know what might be an interesting exercise? Find and read one book from each year's bestseller list. Shouldn't take you over a year to do it, and it'll prove an education.

[spooknov]

Whew!!! This was quite a read. My eyes blurred so many times it took three days to pan through all of the wonderful information and suggestions. I think I'm finally caught up to speed.

Hello, my name is Spooky, and I'm a bookoholic. I've posted a few other places on the board, but I had to say thanks to Uncle Jim and everyone else for all the great tips provided for us first timers out there. I have reorganized my writing techniques from some of the pointers, and even made a primary goal list that now hangs on the wall in front of my desk. One of the goals I set for myself was to read a minimum of one fiction & one non-fiction books a week. This may not sound like a lot of work, but, I have children and take care of my elderly in-laws, add in BIC time, errands, cleaning, cooking, etc. and 2 books/week seems like a great place to start. If I find I need more of a challange I can always add another book. So, I guess the best place to start that goal would be the Best Seller list provided. Bravo Uncle Jim. You have once again supplied us with invaluable tools to further educate ourselves. And we don't even have to pay registration fees.

I do have one question though. I so hope it does not sound foolish. I saw tons of info about proper MS form (preference of publishers), but the one thing I did not see mentioned (don't flog me please) was how to separate between chapters.

Do you scroll to the next page, or do you skip a line? Ex:

(Page 14 line 10)
She drifted off to sleep the moment her head hit the pillow.

(page 15)
Chapter Two
The persistant buzz of the digital alarm clock woke her from a wonderful dream blah blah blah.

or should it be

She drifted off blah blah blah

Chapter Two

The persistant buzz blah blah blah

I hate to sound like the ninny, but I can't be the only newbie out there that is wondering, right?

[maestrowork]

As I understand, new chapter starts on new page, even if there's only one line on the previous page.

[James D Macdonald]

Each new chapter starts half-way down a new page.

<hr>

There are reasons you want to start half-way down a page.

First, the Official Reason: The big blank area allows the editor lots of room to write notes, instructions to typesetters, and so on.

Second, the Real Reason: If there are fewer words on the first page, it's less likely an editor is going to bog down and stop reading on the first page. Once you've got the poor bugger turning pages, you've got him.

<hr>

Next: Quick'n'Dirty Story Injection Technique.

For the next month, watch a movie every night. You can do this by going to your local video rental place and picking out movies you've never seen before (extra points if you've never heard of them, even more points if you pick genres you don't particularly like), or by going to a local multi-screen theatre at a random time and seeing the Very Next Movie Showing that you haven't previously seen. Big box of popcorn is extra. Checking the movie listings in advance looking for something you want to see is not allowed.

The idea here is to fill your head with Images and Story Fragments. These will slop around between your ears and come out in Story of your own.

[maestrowork]

I start my new chapter 1/3 down the page. Anyway, he's right about leaving blanks on the page for any type of writeups.

[Hannibal]

Jim okay, but well i will not go in a movei couse i ain't got the time, and here in me town there is no movie at night lol :-)))))) But i will download every weekend something :)

And now to the real purpuse. I Wan't you people to read the very first chapter of me novell that i will post to the race i talked of a few posts before...Uncle Jim i'll be honord if you could read it throu and say your critic.

It was a day like all the other days. Me and the boys where flying guard roots in the beta 4 sector, when the chaos broke out in the radio.
- Help...please...help!! We're beeing attacked. Please help us!! Life support is damaged! The oxigen is fleeing! The hull is down to 30%! Please come immidietly!! Out location is.........
- Base do you got that messages?
- Yes Zeta - 1. The radio signature shows that the message come from sector beta - 4 quadrant 56. It's right next to you Zeta. Immidiat assitance is essential.
- Copy base. We're on out way.
The plate of my ship sqeezed together as i turned it in the way to quadtrant 56.
- Listen all! Engage hyperdrive! NOW!
My head stucked in the seat and the stars began to fade to a straight line. My innards began to crawl up into my stomec while the ship entered the hyperspace. The 56 was not far from us. Ten minutes whit hyperspeed. The radio was still. No new distress calls. The cold, shiny tail of the Anubela comet, flew past me when the voice os the base sounded in my radio.
-What is your position Zeta?
-Almost there base!! Slowing down from hyperspeed! We should see the....
My voice stucked in my throut as the view emerged from the dark space befor us. Bodys flooting soundlessly in the space. Legs, limbs and ather bodyparts all over the quadrant. From the ship there is only a peace of junk remaining.
- Zeta!! Zeta report in!! What happened out there?
- I can't tell base. You have to come out here and see it for yourself.
- What? What is the situation of the ship?
- It's a peace of junk. Nothing is left. Everybody is dead.
- Were they civils? Or military? Or mercenery?
- They were civils according to there clothes.
- Collect data Zeta - 1! And the corpses, and the wreck as well. Then come back to the base immidiatly.
- Copy base. Zeta out.
We collected all that we could, and then we left that massgrave behind us.


According to the this novel have to be max 20 pages, that all is the first chapter the got the name: hour two early morning. It gose on and every new page is a new chapter and a new hour. Real time novell :) I like it very much. It's kind of cool.

Please note that i'm hungaryan...I translated it from hungaryan and i know there are many bugs in it :)

Thx for reading it...and the critic:-)

[Hannibal]

Out = our :-)))) On our way and Our position.. :-)

[Hannibal]

Damn i shouldn't have posted it :) It has so much problems...It's much better in hungary...i could not translate it better...sorry guys :(

[Betty W01]

Really? Hungarian? Wow, you have quite a surprisng and erratic grasp on our language (ain't,shouldn't, it's, and so on) then. Interesting.

You should post stuff like that in Share Your Work, though, not in here. If you want Uncle Jim to read it, maybe you could give him a heads-up in an EZ board message instead of putting it in here for his notice. What do you think, Jim? Emeraldcite? Just a suggestion...

[James D Macdonald]

Yep, story bits for critique should go in Share Your Work with a note and a link here.

[James D Macdonald]

See announcement here: <a href="http://b27.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm16.showMessage?topicID=397.topic" target="_new">b27.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm16.showMessage?topicID=397.topic</a>

[Hannibal]

Hmmm interesting. Chris Goja inserted his whole first chapter in, witch was 3 imtes bigger then mine. Got a good critice and not even got brecked down. but nevermind.

[Chris Goja]

Hannibal, got the same comment your scene received, i.e. I got told to post it elsewhere, which I did.

Like you, I suspect, I simply hadn't seen the other sub categories, and so didn't know about the possibility. Kind people have commented on it in this new location as well, though, so I would suggest you post there, as well.

[Chris Goja]

You know, I'd love for you to do this, but there's something... what was it now?

Oh.

I don't have a manuscript...:head


Just out of interest, how did you decide on the price, Jim? I have no experience of this kind of service, so have no way of knowing if you're cheap or expensive. Are there standards for this sort of thing, like x dollars/page, or how does it work?


Chris - home, sick and home sick.

[Hannibal]

Okay :-)

[James D Macdonald]

Chris's first bit plus commentary is <a href="http://b27.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=270.topic" target="_new">here</a>.

[qatz]

I started an editing company with my friend Lisa not long ago. A large part of the market research we did involved determining that Uncle Jim was uninterested in editing for money. Now that he is, all I can say is YIKES! :ack

I checked his price; all I can say is :wha

It is very reasonable, mid-range or below, and for his kind of quality a huge bargain. Very bad news for the rest of us who try to make a living.

My first thought, when I saw what he was saying: how can I get him to edit MY manuscript?

The second thought: well this certainly ratchets up the stakes in the old editing biz!

Congratulations, Jim.

Eric

[James D Macdonald]

Geeze, qatz, when you did your market research did you look at <a href="http://www.windhaven.com/" target="_new">Windhaven Press</a>, <a href="http://www.ses-ny.com/" target="_new">Sherman Editorial Services</a>, or <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/lauraanne.gilman/dymk.htm" target="_new">dymk productions</a>?

[maestrowork]

Q, there's always market for other editors. There are more than 52 novelists out there who need editing help, and most probably can't wait a year in line. Also, there are short stories, poetry, screenplay, etc. Competition is good. Maybe you can strike up a partnership with Uncle Jim.

[sfsassenach]

Also, there are short stories, poetry, screenplay, etc.

It's unlikely that one editor would be qualified to work on all of those--if that's what you meant.

[maestrowork]

Why not?

[qatz]

Laura Gilman and Nancy Hanger are obviously class acts. Nancy, whose site I think I looked at, doesn't do exactly what we do, though it'd be great to get some of those contracts with publishers, and we're looking into that sort of thing.

I heard of dymk, for sure. Laura, well, what can I say? Lucky there's only one of her. Sherman Editorial appears to be a big downtown operation, which we aren't. Maybe Sherman just makes it look like that, but still.

There are lots of editors out there. Our basic market research was finding out there's enough work to go around, and deciding we were below your attennae! Other people, it's not like the editorial world revolves around Big Jim. This is just my way of complimenting him.

Maestro, as far as partnering up with Jim, well, my guess is he likes to work by himself, no frills. There are numerous other considerations into which I will not go at present. Actually, I would die for a chance like that for Lisa and myself. Even so, I will die anyway someday, so why should I go around looking for additional opportunities? Being someone's partner is a pretty big commitment, anyway. I am already Lisa's partner, and I am grateful for that. If Jim wants to employ us, he knows where we are. :thumbs

But this concerns the craft of writing, not who's editing whom. Editing is about honing the skills as well as making the basket look better. I think Lisa and I would like to put on a seminar in the Northeast next year having to do with what editing really is, because people don't really understand that I think, and we would most humbly invite you, Jim, to lead part of it. :hail Do you have free spots in your schedule?

[SFEley]

Maestrowork (on "most editors wouldn't be qualified to do all of those"):
Why not?

Because to be truly qualified to be a consulting editor in a field you ought to have extensive professional experience in that field -- as a writer or, preferably, as an editor. You need to be able to show that you know how the money is made, because you've been making it yourself for some years.

Relatively few people have years of professional credits in novels, short fiction, screenplays and poetry. There's probably someone out there who does, but most professionals specialize more than that. Of course anybody can hang a shingle out and call themselves anything they want, but I personally wouldn't consider giving anyone money for their advice unless they'd proven themselves deeply in the field I wanted to write in.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[qatz]

I know a fair amount about poetry, but am put to shame by some poets I know. I know about short stories and long fiction, but do not think my editing talents necessarily go to the former. I know a little about screenplays and like them, but do not think them at all fungible with novels. There is a reason why good editors do not do everything, and that is the same reason why good fiction is not mass-prodouced.

[jeffspock]

In Japan, the number 4 is pronounced the same way as death ("Shi"). Four is most decidedly not a lucky number, and is generally to be avoided (i.e. never give four of anything as a gift, etc.).

Jeff

[James D Macdonald]

Fascinating info, Jeff -- and another reason to take great care when setting a story in a culture not your own.

<hr>

Fun things:

Preamble to the Constitution, Diagrammed! (http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/diagrams2/preamble.htm)


The Pledge of Allegiance, Diagrammed! (http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/diagrams2/pledge.htm)

Those who are playing along at home can try <A HREF="http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/diagrams/diagrams.htm" target="_new">diagramming</a> this stanza from A Visit from St. Nicholas:


<BLOCKQUOTE>
As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky,
So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,
With the sleigh full of toys, and St. Nicholas too.
</blockquote>

<hR>

Oh, a reflected boast: Sales (http://www.sff.net/people/greg/vppubs.html) by some of our Viable Paradise students.

[maestrowork]

I believe that's Chinese, not Japanese.

However, it is curious to note that group of 4's (or multiples) are prominent in Chinese culture. E.g. like I mentioned before, majongg is played by four players. The Gang of Four during the Cultural Revolution. The four seasons. Four walls of Imperial Palace. The "Heavenly Gods" is a group of four. The four major directions (may I remind you that the Chinese first invented the compass). A poem in its simplest form has four verses. Idioms and sayings usually have four characters/words (e.g. "Kung Hei Fat Choy"). The number "4" symbolizes stability (like a fort with four sides). Pagodas usually have 4 or 8 sides (some have 6, but rarely so). I Ching has 16 symbols.

[LiamJackson]

The info regarding the number '4' in Japanese culture is correct. In fact, the number isn't even allowed in some public buildings.

By the way, much like English, some Japense words have myriad meanings with Shi certainly being one of them.
FYI- If memory serves:
Zero- maru
Ichi- one
Ni- two
San- three
Shi- (also yon) four
Go- five
Rokku- six
Sichi- seven
Hachi- eight
kyuu- nine
Ju- ten
Ju-ichi eleven (and so forth)

Example- nijuuichi- 21

[ChunkyC]

Actually, Maestro, Jeffspock is correct about the negative connotations of the number four in Japan (pronounced 'shi' when counting, as in 1-2-3-4). I work with a Japanese girl and she told me that some old hotels in Japan don't use the number four in their room numbers, much like the western dislike of the number thirteen.

As Uncle Jim said, tidbits like this can really add colour to a story.

PS - I see Liam got there before me. :grin

[maestrowork]

Shi is the same in Chinese -- same pronounciation as "death." As we all know, the Japanese language was derived from Chinese...

So I am not disputing that fact. However, one needs to look beyond that to fully understand the Asian cultures. For example, in China, you don't buy a house with the number "4" on it. You don't give a gift with the number 4... however, what I said about the "group of 4" is also true in the Japanese culture -- for example, Haiku comprises of 4 verses.

[reph]

"Haiku comprises of 4 verses."

Huh? A haiku comprises (consists of) three lines.

[Beaver]

Haiku is 3 lines

1st line - 5 syllables
2nd line - 7 syllables
3rd line - 5 syllables

My girlfriend likes me to write her those for some reason. :shrug

Beaver :jump

[maestrowork]

Oops, my mistake. I keep getting it confused with Chinese poems.

[SFEley]

LiamJackson:
The info regarding the number '4' in Japanese culture is correct. In fact, the number isn't even allowed in some public buildings.
FWIW, the same is true in Korea. It's common for public buildings there to skip the 4th floor, just as American buildings frequently skip the 13th floor.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[Chris Goja]

I think this thread needs to work on the basis of relevancy, if there is such a thing. Matters of cultural importance, no matter how interesting, could surely be debated elsewhere...?

[Chris Goja]

I just read an interesting quote on story vs. plot on Sara Donati's home page:

"Story is what happened; plot is the artful rearrangement of what happened."

This lead me to wonder if there are any given arrangements that work better than others in absolute terms. I've studied musical theory, and there you will find that there are very clearly defined guidelines for how best to arrange a piece, so maybe the same holds true for stories?

Of course, there are as many arrangement styles as there are arrangers, and different rules apply depending on whether you write for a string quartet or a boy's choir, but still. Any thoughts on this, Jim?

And I leave you with a wonderful quote to juxtapose the above:

"Music is best left unperformed." T. Pratchett

[qatz]

is rearrangement. Unperformed music is dots on a paper.

i think cultural information is, as uncle jim said, "fascinating" stuff and plainly relevant. as to "shi," i did not know until maestro pointed it out that "shi" means the same in chinese as it does in japanese. quite opposite to, for example, the lakota.

china was the birthplace of so many things and probably was not entirely wrong when it thought of itself as the center of the world. not everyone agreed. twas big controversy when funakoshi renamed karate from "china hand" to "empty hand" about a century ago.

some say karate originated when bodhidarma came from india in the fifth century bc to teach the then rather slovenly monks at the shao-lin temple a new set of physical exercises to improve their spiritual acuity. it evolved and branched off from there. good thing Grasshopper learned the art at rather a later date. would have made for boring TV scripts if he only knew finger-kung fu.

[James D Macdonald]

Though Cultural Information about China and Japan is no more relevant here than details of horsemanship might be.

You need to be aware of as many details as you can, and you need to stay as close to the truth as you can in your fiction, to give your readers the confidence that you, the writer, know what you're doing, and to avoid throwing readers out of the story.

Thus, if you have your character going to room 4 on the fourth floor of a Japanese building, you might have some reader throw your book across the room. You want to avoid book-throwing.

<hr>

The main thing that you need to do is be consistent. You can be consistent with the real world -- as in the examples given of Japanese house numbers. If you're writing fantasy or science fiction, you need to be consistent with your own creation, sufficiently that the readers will be aware that the hidden structures are solid.

It's not enough to be consistent. You have to be consistent with something.

The primary thing to be consistent with (and here is art!) is that you have to be consistent with your theme. Your book is a lie, through and through, but the theme is true. It's that truth the readers seek. The human mind seeks truth.

Knowing and keeping your theme in mind will provide the answers to plot questions as they arrive. The details will appear if you know your theme.

The theme also governs, and is governed by, the treatment. If you're writing a humor piece, and it isn't funny, it's lost. If you're writing horror, and it isn't scary, you're lost.

Here's another secret: Write your book as if every element, the characters, the plot, the story, the events, were literally true. Find a treatment (serious, humorous, detached, intimate) that best suits the presentation of the theme you're using. Make every detail consistent.

Make every plot point so clear that even the stupidest, most distracted reader will be able to follow it. Make every plot point so interesting that even the smartest, most involved reader will find it inherently satisfying. Be clear without being boring.

If you aren't consistent, the readers won't keep their suspension of disbelief. They won't live the illusion. They won't pick your book back up.

When one bearing burns out, the engine stops. Pay attention to the bearings. Your details are the bearings that the engine of your plot turns on.

[maestrowork]

I concur with Uncle Jim 100%. Stories (novels, shorts, etc.) are always about truth. As writers (or filmmakers) we tell lies so that we can deliver the truth. The best stories are the ones that resonate with the readers at the deepest level -- the "truth" level, if you will.

[qatz]

Exactly.

[ChunkyC]

I heartily concur. The truth is paramount, but any mis-step along the way, and your message will never be received. The number four thing is merely an example of the kind of thing that can either ruin or add flavour to a story. In the novel I'm currently working on, I have a Japanese character. I now have one more piece of information I can use to help make my character both more believable and more interesting.

[maestrowork]

Anything you can do to make your characters or scene more realistic is a good thing. Have your Japanese character become neurotic because she has to go into room 4 on the 4th floor of a building... but be careful not to use too much of the stuff... your book may turn into a big bucket of cliches.

[James D Macdonald]

There's even a term for putting too much of your research on the page: "I suffered for my art, and now it's your turn."

Keeping the rule that only words that reveal character, support the theme, and advance the plot belong in your novel should keep you from the worst excesses.

Research your characters, keep them consistent with your research, but (like the iceberg of cliche) 90% should never be seen.

[TiConTiki]

Thank you, Uncle Jim for all your help and instruction. I have been reading for a while - but this is my first post.

I have a question about protagonists and parallel plots.

Is there a general rule specifying that there must only be one main protagonist? Do I risk alienating a reader if I have a couple, or more? Should I try to play one up to the exclusion of another? Is there any acceptable, or status-quo methodology that should be observed?

And the next question I have concerns parallel plots. How soon in the story should they come together? Should I have an obvious main theme that ties them together? I don't want the story to appear fragmented - and I don't think it does, but then again, I know the ending. <sigh>

Thanks again for all your help. I have studied and applied your methods religiously.

And my husband thanks you for the pie. :)

[James D Macdonald]

No, no one came down from Mt. Sinai and said "Only one protagonist!"

At any given spot in your story the readers should have no doubt as to which character they're watching. That isn't to say that you can't have several of equal or nearly-equal importance.

As to parallel plots: Everything comes together at the climax.

Heck, I even did one novel with two separate stories, decades apart, told in alternating chapters, that only come together at the climax.

As to the main theme being obvious: All that matters is that it be there, that you know it, and that you stay consistent with it.

Glad your husband liked the pie.

[SFEley]

Uncle Jim:
As to parallel plots: Everything comes together at the climax.
I recall an SF novel by Iain M.Banks, Inversions, which also uses the separate-storylines, alternate-chapters device, except that the stories do not come together at the climax. They come together long before the book begins, and only by implication.

The book was all right. Banks is a very experimental writer, and while I think he barely made this one work, it did have a weaker ending than many of his other stories. (E.g. Use of Weapons, which has one of the creepiest endings I've ever read.) I was reading it with my wife, and we kept waiting for the Big Reunion that never came. Great story otherwise.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[maestrowork]

I have two separate themes that intertwine throughout the story, then they come together at the end. Always tie up loose ends and don't keep your readers hanging.

[James D Macdonald]

Remember the master rule: You can do anything at all provided it works.

What "works"? Something that the readers accept. More than accept -- they approve with the sound of rapidly-turning pages.

[Kate Nepveu]

I personally--me, just one reader--have very little patience for novels that have two distinct, seemingly-unrelated storylines. I often get bored with one and don't read it, to the detriment of the work, I'm sure. The example that leaps to mind is Dave Duncan's fantasy _Past Imperative_--people tell me that the series as a whole was really good, but I couldn't get past the parallel, unconnected storylines. I read half the book (the half I was interested in) and never picked up the sequels.

Now, I've read the book Uncle Jim refers to--_The Apocalypse Door_--and enjoyed it a heck of a lot. Why the difference? Well, partly because I trust Uncle Jim as an author; and partly because they were separated in time, not in parallel worlds, so I expected the timelines to intersect at some point.

So for *me* as a reader, the more the protagonists are separated, the more I want some reassurance that they are eventually going to interact. (I suppose there must be some books that pull off having their separate protagonists never interacting; but I think they would be rare beasts.) And I think most readers' default assumption is going to be that you're going to bring your protagonists together in some fashion: you'll get some slack at first, as the readers wait to see how you're going to do it, but the longer you go, the less patience they'll have, unless you drop some breadcrumbs along the way.

My metaphors are terrible tonight; I apologize, and hope this has been somewhat useful all the same.

[maestrowork]

What "works"? Something that the readers accept. More than accept -- they approve with the sound of rapidly-turning pages.

Good to know. :grin One of my betas read 198 pages of my novel in one night -- and she cursed me for keeping her up until 5 a.m. I take it as a good sign. :snoopy

[HapiSofi]

I'm not usually all that big on dual structures, but I liked the one in Apocalypse Door. I too have faith in that author, though I had a brief moment of wanting to throw spitwads at him when, in the second storyline, a woman named Veronica got Mike's face washed. On the other hand, it did spare me wondering whether Mike was going to get out of trouble any time soon.

[James D Macdonald]

I take it as a good sign.

That's a very good sign. When your readers keep turning pages because they can't help themselves, when they hand back the manuscript and ask, all on their own, "Do you have anything else?" then you're well up the road.

[MacAl Stone]

Uncle Jim said:
There's even a term for putting too much of your research on the page: "I suffered for my art, and now it's your turn."

Hey! I learned to shoe a horse so that I could write a credible blacksmith....by GAWD everyone who reads my slush is gonna know my pain!

Actually, I'm mostly kidding, but I have to admit, even though I'm not including excruciating and detailed scenes about horseshoeing, it helps me tremendously to know things about my blacksmith character--like just HOW tired he must be at the end of his day...and what he is likely to overlook or let go by, as a result.

So it really is about writing truth--and much of that truth I have to actually research, I cannot just intuit.

[macalicious731]

Finally I've caught up with this monster thread! I just need a post so I can find myself later...

If I've gotten anything out of these posts, I actually want to write again.

[James D Macdonald]

Up above I said: ...the readers should have no doubt as to which character they're watching..

This is because you, the writer, the artist, are directing their attention. The source of information, the source of interest, those are where you want the readers' attention to lie.

Here's your next assignment, everyone: Go to a professionally produced stage play. Watch to see how the director is directing your interest. Sure, there are other things on stage, other people on stage, at any given moment, but you'll find you're looking at one of them. Why? What are the clues?

Now, go see a top-line, critically praised movie. How does the director direct your interest? Why do you look at one part of the screen rather than another? Where does the information that you need to make sense of the climax come from?

Now, go see a professional magician do his or her act. How does he get you to look where he wants you to look? How does he achieve his effects?

Last, read a novel -- not just any novel, but a recent best selling yet critically acclaimed novel. How does the author direct your attention? How does the author get information across?

In all of these, I'm asking you not to watch these various performaces with your Joe-in-the-street eyes. Watch them with your writer's eyes. Watch to see the how, not merely the what. Yes, this may break the illusion for you. You aren't in the theatre to fall under the illusion, not this time. This time you're in the theatre to learn how to make the illusion.

You want to make illusions. Art is art. Art is illusion. Observe, learn, do.

[wwwatcher]

Jim

Those sales by your Viable Paradise students are really impressive! I'll be down as soon as I win a lottery or get my first $80,000 advance!

Watcher:thumbs

[wwwatcher]

Chris


Here's my 2 cents on this, because I just watched a movie that seems to reflect this definition.

"Story is what happened; plot is the artful rearrangement of what happened."

I just finished watching the "Sixth Sense." Have you seen it?

I would also think this quote is about taking a good story idea and thinking outside the box.


Interesting question.
Watcher

[maestrowork]

"Story is what happened; plot is the artful rearrangement of what happened."

Absolutely. I realized that while working on the rewrites. I have switched things around, deleted big chunks of scenes and chapters and reconstructed the plot structures... Rearrangement is just the right word. But the story remains the same.

Dual plots/protagonists: one comes to mind immediately. "Cold Mountain." There are two main protagonists and storylines: Iman and Ada. However, the readers know there's a connection and the two will come together eventually. It builds suspense that way -- what happens to them individually? Will they find each other again? Will they each survive?

[SunSinger]

>>I listen to music and each story has its own music<<

SR, you are the only other person I've ever found that does this. When I write, I invariably end up with a song--could be country, could be pop or classical--that I listen to incessantly while working on the piece. I just completed a quest/adventure novel, and its theme song was "Nirvana Road." Listening to the music was, perhaps, a crutch. But more often than not, it put me instantly back into the story and made it much easier to maintain the all-important discipline of writing each day and getting the thing done.

--Malcolm
www.campbelleditorial.com/sunsinger.html

[maestrowork]

Sun, I do that too. The theme song for my novel is Sarah McLachlan's "Angel." It is the perfect song for the themes of my book.

[spooknov]

Uncle Jim,
I have labeled myself as a "newbie" because I have never been published and I am currently working on my first novel. But the more I read all of the wonderful "helpful hints" I feel the urge to toss the "newbie" term out the window. I have written stories, poetry, and non-fic essays out the wazoo, (whether it be for fun or having been an assignment from school) from a very young age. This makes me a writer, not the fact that some person in a publisher's office says "Hey, she can put one hec of a story together!"
As for your latest assignment, I have always watched/read with a creative eye (to much annoyance to those around me) and I find it helpful to my creative juices, but I generally know how the story is going to end before the end of scene one. I need subplots to keep me intruiged, and an unexpected twist is ABSOLUTELY necessary for me to rate a movie as great. The Sixth Sense is a wonderful example. I did not catch the clues throughout the movie (look for red objects) until the second time around. In this seemingly small detail, the director has given a secondary theme (IMO) to the audiance.

[SFEley]

Maestrowork:Sun, I do that too. The theme song for my novel is Sarah McLachlan's "Angel." It is the perfect song for the themes of my book.
For my last project it was "Ordinary World" by Duran Duran. I didn't listen to it over and over, though; I just thought about it every so often and ended up with the song running my head.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley

[ChunkyC]

I'm like Steve in that respect, I don't listen to music while writing, but usually end up with some song or other running through my head as I go.

[SRHowen]

One novel I wrote was done to the theme music from Mortal Combat, another shorter work was done to the Klingon Battle theme from one of the Star Trek movies.

The latest, Don't fear the Reaper--I have to use head phones or every person and animal in the house would go nuts. Plus I am going deaf, (no, not loud music)(diabetes for 30 years) so I have to wear headphones to hear the music above the rest of the sounds in the house. But it's one song per book or story, or sometimes I may switch as the mood or tone of the story switches.

A chapter that is mostly about another character even in first person may have its own theme when that character is there because they change the tone of the story.

Shawn

[Chris Goja]

Wwwatcher and spooknov both mentioned this film as a good example of how to arrange your scenes to form a plot from a basic story. (Spooknov has got me intrigued by mentioning red objects - something which I never noticed! I'll watch it again now...)

However, I would argue that it is also a case of the storyteller getting away with huge gaps in his story by playing it hard and fast. The second time around I was constantly asking myself how the main characters didn't notice the goings-on, and this rather ruined the experience. A better example would be "The Ususal Suspects" or "Pulp Fiction", in my opinion - both brilliantly cut, and without the second sight question marks of SS.

On a completely different subject, Jim, I am well under way with my assignment, despite a business trip and a nasty cold. Be afraid. Be very afraid...:lol

[macalicious731]

Sun, I do that too. The theme song for my novel is Sarah McLachlan's "Angel." It is the perfect song for the themes of my book.

I like having a mixed cd around that I've stocked with songs - even if it's just one line - that relate to what I'm writing. If I get stuck, I can swap the cd for my regular music and get going again.

McLachlan appears quite frequently on some of those cds.

[spooknov]

I also listen to particular CDs when writing. I find it helps put me in the correct mood depending on the type of songs. Mostly I write horror, so I have found metal and hard core alternative helps get me in a dark groove.

I do have a question reguarding music/writing. I recently heard a song by 7 Mary 3 and it gave me an idea to expand on the lyrics of the song to turn it into a novel. Is this something that should be credited in acknowledgements? What I basically am doing is using the lyrics as a mini-outline. I plan to expand deeply on the plot. (I have started an expanded outline because the story keeps screaming in my head).

[Kate Nepveu]

You think _The Sixth Sense_ plays fast and loose--I thought it played pretty fair, but I've only seen it once, so okay--but recommend _The Usual Suspects_?

If _The Usual Suspects_ had been a book, I would have thrown it against the wall. Hard. Which I have not done to even the worst books I have read. It takes the viewer's faith and stomps gleefully on it. Its "twist" is one the viewer *could* *not* have seen coming, which makes it a cheat and unworthy of emulation.

Sorry. I feel a little strongly about this.

To be constructive:

Sure, misdirect all you like, but you have to play fair and give the reader clues. In _The Sixth Sense_, there were some things that puzzled me as I watched, and once I knew the ending, they all fit into place. In caper movies, the watcher is frequently misdirected as to the plot, but again, in a good one, the clues should have all been there. (I was just talking about the recent _Ocean's Eleven_, which I think is a good example of that.) Importantly, in that kind of movie, the watcher expects (1) a con and (2) the revelation of that con.

You mention _Pulp Fiction_, which I didn't care for and don't remember, but that brings up another variant: the story told in something other than chronological fashion. Some stories are far more interesting when told out of order: the movie _Memento_ and Iain M. Banks' sf novel _Use of Weapons_ are, to me, the major examples. Query: would anyone have cared about the story of _Memento_ if it was told in strict chronological order? If no, does that make it a bad story?

[James D Macdonald]

Pay attention to the story-telling styles and modes. Use the information you learn from how others tell stories to make your own story-telling sharper.

Novels aren't movies, but movies are stories.

[maestrowork]

The clues have to be there. Same with novels -- if you don't plant the clues, then bam! present the readers/audience a twist that does not make any sense, you alienate the readers to the max. One thing I learned from my writer classes -- as narrator, you should never deliberately "lie" to your readers. You don't have to give them all the information, but you should never purposely misguide them so that you can deliver your "twists." That's poor storytelling. Good storytelling is the one where the author presents you with all the clues, yet still surprises you.

The Sixth Sence is very good in doing that. While manipulative (but that's the nature of stories like that, including mystery), it works because all the clues are there. That's why people watch it the second, third, N times to get that "A-ha! How did I miss that?" It's brilliant and it drives sales, pushing the movie past $250 million....

However, I think his other two movies (Unbreakable, Signs) fail because the whole stories are based on the "trick ending." I particularly dislike "Signs" because of that -- it's manipulative from the starts -- the clues are blatant and coy, leading to an ending that makes little sense. Here's a movie that is so deliberately constructed that it feels fake. And that pisses me off as an audience.

[ChunkyC]

Maestro, I liked Signs, but that's another discussion. :grin

You are dead on about 'cheating' the reader by not giving him/her enough clues to figure it out if they are astute enough. I call it the 'Geordie Laforge' syndrome, after 'Star Trek: the Next Generation' and some of its worst episodes, where the engineer (Laforge) would pull out some heretofore unknown property of some heretofore unknown compound and use it to save the day in the last three minutes of the show.

Always made me want to 'Uncle Jim' my TV through the window.

[Jules Hall]

Did you know this page comes up second on a Google search for "uncle jim"? You're the Internet's second most popular Uncle Jim!

Or rather it did, only the address that google have for it (on pub43.ezboard.com) stopped working a couple of days ago. I think a lot of people have links to that address, so they may need to update them if that address isn't going to start working again any time soon (does anyone know what's going on there?)

Oh, err, this is my first post here. Hi everyone.

[James D Macdonald]

The address is now <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=1&stop=20" target="_new">p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=1&stop=20</a>

I hope everyone updates their links. (And that includes you, Jenna -- the link to the Water Cooler on the Absolute Write front page is dead....)

Oh ... and if you just type in Learn Writing in Google, this thread comes up at the #1 hit.

I feel humbled by my success. I'd like to thank all the little people who helped me on my way ...

And that means that I have to come up with a nice substansive post Really Soon Now to justify the trust that y'all have demonstrated.

But first ... I have some galleys to do, for a story that will be coming out this coming October. It's a new adventure of a character we introduced in "Ecydsis" in the <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/owercont.htm" target="_new">Otherwere</a> anthology. (As of this morning Amazon only has 14 used copies available. Get one now before they're gone!)

(The story is "A Tremble in the Air" in <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/murder_magic.htm" target="_new">Murder by Magic</a>, which isn't even listed at Amazon yet. I'll let you know when it's available.)

[Jules Hall]

I haven't seen signs yet, but I don't think Unbreakable fails the way you say. The ending really ought to be obvious because of several clues that are in there. The entire story is based on comic-book archetypes, and the ending is really a natural consequence of that.

[Chris Goja]

Well, Kate,

I'm sorry you didn't like the Ususal Suspects, but then, taste is a matter of... erm. You know. I haven't seen Memento, even though I have got it in my bookshelves, somewhere. From what I understand it is basically told in reverse, bit by bit, no? If so, then it, like Pulp Fiction, is certainly a good example of excellent story-telling rather than an impressive plot.

I haven't read Banks either, but one book (and film) that manages to combine both - to my mind at least - is Chuck Palahniuk's Fight Club. The book is better than the film, but I didn't think the film bad at all. either. Unfortunately, his other books have been disappointments, because no matter how elegantly crafted, or how many interesting details he crams in, I have never again believed in the actual stories he tells.

There's a lesson there, somewhere, I just know it...

[Kate Nepveu]

The movie is told in two strands, one black-and-white going forward, one color going backward. They merge at the end and there is a Revelation. If the revelation came in the middle of the movie, well, I think it would only deserve a lower-case letter, if at all, and thus the plot would be far less interesting (I think the characters and what they do to themselves would still be interesting, which is what I think of as story, but your definitions may vary).

(_Use of Weapons_ is the same, I believe, except with different styles of chapter numbering instead of color/bw.)

And I think the lesson about your reaction to Chuck Palahniuk's Fight Club (which I haven't read or seen, but I know the movie's secret), is the same as my reaction to _Usual Suspects_: writers shouldn't squander their readers' trust.

(I hope that's on-topic enough.)

[James D Macdonald]

In <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151004358/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Unstrung Harp: or, Mr. Earbrass Writes A Novel</a> by Edward Gorey (a book that contains more truth about writing than any ten consecutive issues of Writer's Digest (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005NIPH/madhousemanor) -- what do you mean you haven't gotten a copy yet?) we see Mr. Earbrass attend a literary dinner: "The talk deals with disappointing sales, inadequate publicity, worse than inadequate royalties, idiotic or criminal reviews, others' declining talent, and the unspeakable horror of the literary life."

What, then, are these unspeakable horrors?

I shall speak of them.

Elsewhere I've said that readings and signings and book tours rank slightly above oral surgery on the scale of Fun Ways To Spend Time.

Here are a couple of links you might look at:

<a href="http://books.guardian.co.uk/posysimmonds/page/0,12694,1152704,00.html" target="_new">A cartoon by Posy Simmonds</a> (via the indispensable <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005104.html#005104" target="_new">Making Light</a>).

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/14/books/14HUMI.html?ex=1397275200&en=1a6d0536eb304c28&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=print&position=" target="_new">An article in The New York Times</a> (via the equally indispensable <a href="http://scrivenerserror.blogspot.com/" target="_new">Scrivener's Error</a>).

Yes, readings and signings really are that bad. They take you away from your keyboard, which is where your major money-making takes place. The way to sell books is to a) write a book, and b) write another book. Suppose you have a really successful signing. You sell fifty books. Say these are $8.00 paperbacks, and you're making 10% royalties on them. You've just made $40, minus your agent's 15%, or $34. Which will get to you ... eventually. After the book's earned out, after reserve-against-returns has been met. In the next royalty period after that. A year? Two?

Did that pay for your gas to get to the store? Did that pay for the time you had to take off from writing? How about food and lodging? But really, it's a great Ego thing if you sell 50 books. You want to know what you'll probably get?

Nothing.

Bigger names than you or me have had no one show up to readings/signings. When John Grisham gets no one to show up (as he did in freakin' downtown Boston on one not-so-memorable occassion), where do you think we're going to fit on the food chain?

Want to talk about ego-killers?

So: survival tips.

First, do a joint reading/signing with another author. That way you'll have someone to talk to.

Second, put a bowl of Hershey Kisses on your table. That way people will come over to at least pick up some free candy. (Don't forget to subtract the price of that candy from your profits.)

Third, do your own press releases and publicity. Don't rely on the bookstore/your publisher to do that. (Subtract the price from your profits. Are we below zero yet?)

Next, when someone comes by and asks you about your book (or asks you for directions to another shop in the mall -- I've had that happen to me) don't tell them what your book is about. They'll say "I don't like [science fiction] [romance] [mysteries] [quirky literary masterpieces filled with wonderful insights into the human condition]." Instead, ask them what kind of books they like. Whatever the answer, find a way in which you can tell them that your book contains exactly those elements they mentioned. I'm sure you can do this ... novels have lots of different things in 'em, you're intimately familiar with your book, and you're creative. Go for it.

Okay, two more things for you to do:

Get and watch <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6304907621/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">"Jose Chung's From Outer Space"</a> (X-files) and "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense" (from Millennium Season Two -- not yet available on tape or DVD). Those, too, tell the Truthiest Truth about being an author.

[maestrowork]

Great advice, Uncle Jim. I'm sure to remember these "when" I have my own book signing moments! :money

[MacAl Stone]

....is done, up to this page. 161 pages, currently in a Word Perfect document. I can convert it to a pdf, if need be.

What I CANNOT do is fix the EZ board links--they're all dead, with the address change, and I don't know my way around well enough to know where all those links should now lead.

The other links are fine.

And I'm so glad the cut-n-paste is over.

Mac

[SarahjaneinNZ]

Onya, MacAl Stone. I'd love to have all of Uncle Jim's wisdom in one handy place and can't wait till it is available. Thanks for what must have been pretty tedious, but not thankless, work. :)

Dear Uncle Jim- simply, thankyou. Your thread has been a fascinating read, as well as an incredible source of useful writing information. You have restored my faith in the internet. :)

Signed,
A fan in New Zealand

[Chris Goja]

Hear, hear. Not that we don't want more pearls of wisdom from you Jim, but it will be a great reference document, if/when MacAl Stone decides to publish it. And the hyperlinks, well, they could always be compiled separately. Jim's already done this once, I know, but I can't remember exactly which page he did it on. A task for someone to find out, perhaps?



Before fighting someone, try walking a mile in their shoes. Then, if they still want to fight, at least they're a mile away, and you've got their shoes. - T. Pratchett

[Fresie]

Hello, Jim and everybody.

Yes, you can say I'm joining late... but I've just returned from a trip abroad and discovered that Jim started this topic exactly on the day I left... otherwise I'd have been stuck here like a fly in honey chatting my head away all these months.

This is just to say hello because I've only made it to page 22 (I don't have much time to spend with my computer) so naturally, I've got lots of questions but I'm sure I'll find most answers before I catch up. I'm amazed how much time and patience you, Jim, put into this topic. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with us!

I'm just a part-time non-fiction writer striving to get some fiction accepted... although almost every bit of non-fiction I write gets quite enthusiastically published, fiction seems to be a totally different ball game. So I do get up at 4.50 am to put in about an hour and a half of fiction writing (I do my articles in the afternoon) -- I don't seem to be able to keep my attention on the story for a longer period although I do hope it'll come with practice. So I write in sections/scenes: each about 1000-1500 words which takes me about an hour and a half and after I've finished a scene, I'm done, exhausted--can't concentrate any longer. The fact that English is a totally foreign language for me doesn't help, either: I'm Russian and only started speaking English regularly about 5 years ago.

Well, that's already a long post, but I absolutely had so say hello to you all, even although I haven't finished reading yet. I'll be around. Great to meet you, people, and you, Jim -- thanks again for the marvellous topic.

Fresie

[ChunkyC]

Mac - it looks like the only difference in the links that refer to this board is the prefix p197, which used to be pub43. If you had a way of doing a global find and replace on links in a WP doc, that might work.

[James D Macdonald]

I've got to go through this thread and correct all my links to other Water Cooler threads.

And ... I'd appreciate a chance to read over and edit the compiled Wit and Wisdom document.

What do y'all think of creating a book over at CafePress, just as an experiment?

(I don't much like PDF, because it's hard to search, and limiting in its presentation. I can convert Word to HTML pretty easily, and have a lot of room on my own web page, if it comes to that.)

[ChunkyC]

I'm up for whatever format you are willing to present it in, Uncle Jim.

[Chris Goja]

Well, Jim,

I don't think anyone will deny you the right to do whatever you want with what is, after all, YOUR wit and wisdom. I just hope it will be edited really quickly, is all.

Oh, and what is CafePress?

Chris

P.S. I'll be asking for Beta readers for the Assignment (tm) soon. Any volonteers?

[James D Macdonald]

This is <a href="http://www.cafeshops.com/viableparadi,yog_1,yog_2" target="_new">CafePress</a>.

They offer a <a href="http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell/books.aspx" target="_new">Print-on-Demand</a> publishing option.

Let's say that the Uncle Jim book was 100 pages.

It would cost out at $9.50 for Wire-O binding, $8.50 for Saddle-stitch, or $10 for Perfectbound. Add in a tiny bit of profit for your humble narrator, and it's $9.15 retail.

Whether this would be Worth It to anyone, I don't know.

[Chris Goja]

Sounds good, Jim,

and I'm equally certain that just about everyone in here would buy a copy, earning you at least a very nice dinner for all your trouble. I'm just a little worried that the publication would mark the end of this particular thread...
:cry
Surely you're not saying that this is it, that your W&W is now dispersed, dried up and that you have nothing else to add on the subject? (I'd make bambi eyes here if I thought it would help, but I can't afford the time for yet another Assignment (tm), so I won't. ;) ) I for one would love to hear your thoughts on any number of topics yet un-covered (as it were), and I'm sure the rest would agree with me.

Chris

[stormie267]

Jim,
You mentioned some great points about book signings (on p.59). One thing, though, that happened to me:I was excited and nervous because it was my first book signing. I brought along a small bowl of Hershey miniatures. In my excitement, I forgot that the store owner was going to have me sit outdoors on that gorgeous summer day. The Hershey miniatures stayed in the air-conditioned store. :smack

[jeffspock]

I have no problem forking out a few quatloo for a cheaply-bound copy. But the big question is...

How do we know when it is finished?

Or should we just say we do (for example) one per quarter?

[jeffspock]

Here is a link to Stephen King's acceptance speech for the National Book Award. It's a great speech, given on a great occasion, and gives great insight into King's own view of the truth behind the lies:

www.nationalbook.org/nbaa...sking.html (http://www.nationalbook.org/nbaacceptspeech_sking.html)

"To ignore the truth inside the lie is to sin against the craft, in general, and one's own work in particular."

Like him or not, he knows his business.

[pdr]

I've cut and pasted my own copy of your excellent advice and ideas, Jim but a print on demand copy for my students would be a great idea. I can have them download a copy before a course began.

Thank you for the url to Stephen King's speech. I found his book on writing a good read even though I can't read much of his fiction as horror gives me nightmares!
Whilst this site was down I spent my allowance of website time on the UK www.bbc.co.uk writers site. One writer questioned if she would damage her ability to write literary stories if she also wrote fiction for women's mags to earn money. Go look at the pretentious answers about writing potboilers and how it would seriously damage your ability to write literary stories. It would be wonderful if you all could come up with a polite (this is the British broadcasting corporation and they have very strict rules about anything vaguely impolite) rebuff and post it there if you could spare a moment. It's about time some of those hoary old chestnuts were popped!
Happy Writing!

[maestrowork]

He spoke so eloquently about "jealousy." I think most of us could relate to that, one time or another. Somehow you've just got to let go of that useless, harmful emotion and turn that into motivation.

His take on "truth" is also spot on, IMHO.

[James D Macdonald]

I'm not in favor of going over as a group, or of organizing at one website to go visit a community at another website, to argue with them. Now if someone wanted to issue a polite invitation to come over here?

What's the exact URL?

Now I haven't seen the discussion there -- but in general, you write the way you practice writing, and it's possible for someone to get bad habits, for some definition of "bad," writing in a particular genre or style.

I emphasize care in your writing, in choosing your words and images carefully so that they all lead in one direction and support one theme. But that's just me.

<hr>

Speaking of jealousy, here are some more <a href="http://books.guardian.co.uk/posysimmonds/page/0,12694,1201995,00.html" target="_new">Writers' Deadly Sins</A>.

[Fresie]

Time for me to say my first HUGE thank-you to Uncle Jim! Looks like with your advice, I might finally get over my writing problems.

Consider this:

"The mid-book will still be horror compounded to get across, but, day by day, you'll get through it, ***until one morning your hero will make a bold stroke, everything that your subconscious put in place will aid him, and you'll realize that you're in the Climax.*** Hurrah!

This is incredible, because making the hero act in the climax and bring all hell upon himself has always been my biggest pain in the neck. Every minor character would act striving to bring the story to the end, but not the protagonist. I'm working on a novella at the moment (not a novel, but too long for my mental powers, anyway) and I was just clueless how to make my fella act and actually feel something about the story.

But I followed all Uncle Jim's advice on structure hoping it might get me to the climax somehow. And today, a miracle happened. I wrote my two hours' worth of total drivel (right, the midpart was a chore to write), and suddenly in the finishing lines my guy stirred, looked around himself and decided to take action! The subconscious had kicked in, I guess :snoopy I knew what he was feeling and why he made this decision. I knew why he was so passionate about doing what he's going to do in the climax. I just can't believe it! I've got a story! :)

Thank you, uncle Jim! And big thanks to everyone for all your insightful posts -- I'm learning from everyone here.

Fresie

[ChunkyC]

Way to go, Fresie. I love that kind of moment.

[Fresie]

Thanks, Chunky. In my excitement, I forgot to mention something probably even more important: when I discovered my hero's feelings and motivations, it took me some time to realise that his newfound motivations actually matched the story theme 100%. Talking about everything coming together.

I'm just stunned.

[James D Macdonald]

Today in the Author's Toolbag, let's look at Dramatic Irony.

In Dramatic Irony, the reader knows something that the characters in the story don't know.

Let us turn, briefly, to the historical novel <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345348109/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Killer Angels</a> by Michael Shaara.

The scene is in the Confederate camp at General James "Old Pete" Longstreet's headquarters, on the night of 30 June/ 01 July, 1863. General George Pickett has come up to Longsteet with something on his mind....

In this quoted section, General Pickett speaks first:

<blockquote>

...

"Well, sir, now I don't mean this as a reflection upon you, sir. But well, you know, sir, my Division, my Virginia boys, we weren't at Chancellorsville."

"No."

"Well, you know we were assigned away on some piddling affair, and we weren't at Fredericksburg either; we were off again doing some other piddling thing, and now they've taken off two of my brigades, Corse and Jenkins, and sent them off to guard Richmond--Richmond, for the love of God-- and now, General, do you know where I'm placed in the line of march? Last, sir, that's where. Exactly last. I bring up the damned rear. Beg pardon."

Longstreet sighed.

Pickett said, "Well, I tell you, sir, frankly, my boys are beginning to wonder at the attitude of the high command toward my Division. My boys --"

"George," Longstreet said.

"Sir, I must--" Pickett noted Longstreet's face. "Now, I don't mean to imply this command. Not you, sir. I was just hoping you would talk to somebody."

"George," Longstreet paused, then he said patiently, "Would you like us to move the whole army out of the way and let you go first?"

Pickett brightened. That seemed a good idea. Another look at Longstreet's face.

"I only meant, sir, that we haven't--"

"I know, George. Listen, there's no plot. It's just the way things fell out. I have three divisions, right? There's you, and there's Hood and McLaws. And where I go you go. Right? And my HQ is near the Old Man, and the Old Man chooses to be here, and that's the way it is. We sent your two brigades to Richmond because we figured they were Virginia boys and that was proper. But look at it this way: if the army has to turn and fight its way out of here, you'll be exactly first in line."

Pickett thought on that.

"That's possible?"

"Yup."

"Well," Pickett mused. At that moment Lew Armistead came up. Pickett said wistfully, "Well, I had to speak on it, sir. You understand. No offense?"

"None."

"Well, then. But I mean, the whole war could be damn well over soon, beg pardon, and my boys would have missed it. And these are Virginians, sir, and have a certain pride." It occurred to him Longstreet not being a Virginian, he might have given another insult.

...

</blockquote>

We see lots of technique here -- notice the planting of information right, left, and sideways. This might be a deadly expository lump, or an As-You-Know-Bob, but it is saved by the use of dialog, and the chacterization that is being done for both Pickett and Longstreet.

We are in third-person limited in this scene -- we see Pickett's thoughts, not Longstreet's. Pickett is being portrayed as upset, and as not terribly bright. It is quite clear what Longstreet's opinion of Pickett is.

Lots of good stuff in that scene -- yet what I wanted to point up here was the use of irony. We see Pickett thinking that the war might be over without his men seeing action. But the readers of this book will certainly know that within three days most of Pickett's men will be dead, killed in the doomed hopelessness of Pickett's Charge. That is what adds the poignancy to this particular scene, what might otherwise have been a recitation of facts necessary for the reader to know, but which all of the characters would already be perfectly familiar with. Surely Pickett knows how many divisions Longstreet commands, and surely Longstreet knows where in the column Pickett's men are marching.

Without that use of irony, this scene would be out of place.

Pray notice how every word reveals character, advances the plot, or supports the theme.

[maestrowork]

I love dramatic irony. In addition to what Uncle Jim said, it can also add suspense. To see how the story unfolds and how the characters get to learn and react to what we've already known can be a thrill.

[HConn]

I'm not a big fan of the Civil War, but The Killer Angels was a powerful, moving book. Amazing read.

I also loved THE USUAL SUSPECTS. Especially the twist at the end.

[pdr]

The url is: www.bbc.co.uk/dna/getwriting
Go into the Round Table section and click on Arts and Craft
It's very difficult to post on the BBC board, Jim, you have to go through a whole rigmarole to become a member first. But I did think that many of those who have been following this thread of yours would get something out of reading it especially Alex Keegan's comments.

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://quizilla.com/users/edeainfj/quizzes/What%20kind%20of%20writer%20are%20you%3F/" target="_new">What Kind of Writer Are You?</a>

To what should be no one 's surprise, I'm a "Plot Writer."

[MacAl Stone]

character/dialogue writer, here...I love these online quizzes...gives me something to do when I'm awake in the middle of the night.

Oh, and Uncle Jim--how would you like the compilation sent, to what address? I'm anxious to stop being responsible for it, in the eyes of all the nice people here--before you do too many more of those helpful and articulate multi-page posts. My ez inbox is enabled, if you'd rather reply there, or I did note the doylemacdonald sff.net address on your website.

Mac

[James D Macdonald]

yog (at) sff (dot) net or doylemacdonald (at) sff (dot) net are both working addresses for me.

.rtf format, as an attachment.

[ChunkyC]

Dialogue/Character Writer.

[maestrowork]

Mac, same here:
Dialogue/Character Writer...

[Stephenie Hovland]

I'm a plot writer. Now that I think about it, it makes sense. I don't really enjoy books that employ weak plots. And, my writing stalls when the plot isn't clear.

But, I've got a loooooooong way to go before I'm a GOOD plot writer.

Stephenie

[Jules Hall]

"Service Temporarily Unavailable

The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later."

Didn't realise this thread was popular enough to do that :)

[Chris Goja]

Hardly surprised to "find out" I'm a plot writer... Still, it's reassuring to know that I haven't inadvertently been writing crossover smut!

An a vaguely related topic: Are there really no volonteers to be Betas for Silent Knight, formerly known as the Assignment (tm)?

[aka eraser]

dialogue/character..which is accurate I suppose. I talk alot and don't have much of a clue where it's going to lead.

[PixelFish]

Plot writer. Which is kinda off, I think, because I consider plot to be my weakness. I'm trying to get the story down now, instead of lingering on the pretty (and overly descriptive) pictures my head makes, but sometimes I have to just vomit a giant chunk of description to get it out of my head.

[MacAl Stone]

Chris, I'd be happy to read it.

As to sending the rtf file....errrr...I'd be happy to, if I knew how to convert my wpd file to an rtf...it doesn't seem to be one of the options offered by my lowly wordperfect 11...and I picked up a nasty case of adware last night surfing the web looking for a download to buy to MAKE it happen...and an ugly little virus slipped in with the adware through my apparently inadequate firewall, so I was up most of the night eradicating both. (the virus flushed pretty fast, the ad-ware was much more stubborn.) Thank GAWD I'm a safety girl and run a virus scan every night before I power down.

I swear to god these things just get smarter and smarter. One of them is going to develop sentience, crawl from the primordial ooze of the world wide web, gather an army of little virus thugs, then take over the government--Oh wait--that may have already happened...

If any of you techno wizards can direct me, I'd be much obliged. I'm just muddling along here, with no real training or background--but I follow directions well.

Mac

[jeffspock]

Dramatic irony (DI) is an interesting topic, because I tend to write automatically in first person. Given that one experiences the plot in real time with the protag, there is little if any scope for dramatic irony (there are exceptions; i.e. to continue the Lord High Plotmeister's example a biography of Pickett told in 1P, or perhaps alternating 1Ps between protag and antag, etc.).

I have always been a huge fan, for example, of the styles of Chandler and Parker.

Part of my dislike of 3D person and dramatic irony is that there are some genres where it gets so over-used that I feel like I am getting plot hints beaten into me with Nerf bats. For instance, I went through a period of reading too much Clancy and I became tremendously annoyed with his plot tricks. There seemed to be too much "Aren't I clever? Look at all of the plot lines I can handle simultaneously! Look at my scope of intellect and my ability to research excrutiating details on so many different locales, social groups, and technologies! Isn't this rich and multi-textured?"

No. It's overwrought, pointless, confusing, tedious, egocentric, unfocussed, and ultimately dull.

It seems to me that many genres that apply DI with a spackling trowel do it badly. The high-tech thriller seems to be particularly guilty of this; I would say that most teen slasher horror flicks are equally guilty (No! Don't open that door! We know that the mutant killer monster cousin psycho vampire misfit nerd loser with the nuclear-powered cattle prod is hiding there!).

As far as the SF genre goes, one novel that I recall reading that had a multitude of viewpoints, quite a few plot threads, and all sorts of inter-thread dramatic irony, was "Startide Rising." And it was not a bad one, either.

Enough.

Jeff

[jeffspock]

Well, call me odd man out.

I'm a "Narrative writer."

This means that I go on and on about boring crap that nobody wants to...

Hey, are you still awake?

[James D Macdonald]

WordPerfect? It should have a "Save As" entry under "File," where you can save as .RTF.

I use WordPerfect myself (ver. 10 -- I don't know if it'll read version 11 files).

<hR>

On computer safety:

<a href="http://www.zonelabs.com/store/content/home.jsp" target="_new">Zone Alarm freeware firewall</a>

<a href="http://www.lavasoft.de/" target="_new">AdAware freeware spyware removal</a>

<a href="http://www.grisoft.com/html/us_index.htm" target="_new">AVG freeware antivirus</a>

<a href="http://popfile.sourceforge.net/" target="_new">Popfile freeware spam filter</a>

<a href="http://www.greyware.com/software/grr/" target="_new">Grr! shareware registry protection</a>

[aka eraser]

Mac, I also use WordPerfect (version 9). Jim's answer is right but he's not a techno-dweeb so I'll elaborate for them of us as are. ;)

Click 'File,' then 'Save As.' Below 'File name' at the bottom, where you normally type in your title, you'll see 'File type.' The default there is your version of WP. To the right is a tab. Click on it and it will open a sub-menu of files you can convert to and save as. One of them will be rtf. Click it and it will take the place of your default WP file. Then click save.

Presto! You have a rich text file. :bang

[Joanclr]

Haha! I did the quiz and I'm an "Angst writer"! It says: "You enjoy making people suffer. Your writing is often poignant and poetic, but be careful not to overdo it. A little humor or light can transform melodrama into beauty." LOL Well, obviously it's just a quiz, but oddly enough that does seem to be somewhat my style :rollin

Joan

[SRHowen]

I got angst writer as well.

Shawn

[Yeshanu]

Angst writer here.

Mac, are you sure you're a character/dialogue writer?
That bit about the computer virus developing sentience and crawling from the primordial ooze to take over the government is either sci-fi (one of the choices) or ivestigative reporting. Either way, you might have a story there!

Ruth

[Beaver]

Plot writer here. This doesn't surprise me because i like to read books with strong, fast paced plots, such as thrillers.

Reading Dan Brown's Angels & Demons at the moment. I read it until 330 in the morning last night. I'd recommend it to anyone who likes a good fast paced page-turner.

Anyway, not surprised, but like someone said above, I have a long way to go before im a good plot writer.

*Sigh* :cry

Beaver :hat

[maestrowork]

Character/dialogue writer is great... as we all know, the best plot is driven by great characters and sustained by wonderful dialogues :) I mean, think about the best movies in the past century. Do you remember the plot more, or the characters?

Plot vs. character driven stories... I enjoyed "Angels and Demons" as well, for what it is -- a thriller. Do I really care about the characters? Not really. But it's an entertaining read (I enjoyed it better than "Da Vinci Code" which I think is poor in character, dialogue, as well as plot. I can smell the plot twists from a mile away -- I expected more with a thriller). But the books I truly appreciate are usually rich in characters and themetically profound.

Dramatic irony and first person. I write in first person most of the time, and I have no problem using dramatic irony. You give the readers enough hint and they would have guessed what has happened or what is going to happen, but your first-person character is clueless. Or, you lead the readers to think one thing and the protagonist thinks he knows what is going on, then deliver something different -- surprise!

[Chris Goja]

MacAl, for your kind offer. I'll post it over at Share Your Work any day - as soon as I've had time to go through it once more myself - and I'll be sure to let you know.

[MacAl Stone]

It's always about the characters--why the Uber-virus hates and fears his creators--why his creators cringe from him, with terror and disgust...

Thanks for the file tips, ya'll...seems so simple, now that you point it out, and I convert graphics files like that, all the time, but just didn't connect that it's the same difference. It'll go off to Uncle Jim for his perusal as soon as I get home from work tonight.

Mac

[qatz]

which is why i'm taking the trouble to say so.

at its most fundamental, plot is a device meant to show the development of character.

[James D Macdonald]

Hints for writers:

The spell checker in your word processor doesn't relieve you of the necessity to proofread your flippin' text.

There, they're, and their are different words. Two, too, and to are different words. It's and its mean different things.

Outside the window she heard a redundant owl.

Can someone tell me just what the hey that's supposed to mean? There was one more owl than she needed? Guys, if you don't know what a word means, look it up. If you think you know what a word means, but it isn't a word you use every day, look it up.

<hr>

On plot-driven vs. character-driven stories: I think all stories are both plot and character driven. The difference is in the mix -- some have more of one, some more of the other.

<hr>

You want characters? I got <a href="http://www.black-ink.org/fightcrime.htm" target="_new">characters</a>.

[qatz]

hahahehehehehHAHAHAHOIOHGOOHOOHAHAHeheheheh.

heheehehehehhwqashahahahaqhahoohoohoohoohoohoohooh oowpoo haw whehehe hooohooohoo

[maestrowork]

Q is good. At the end, it is always the characters that you care about -- the plot means nothing if you don't care about the people. Dinosaurs eat people. Oooh, ahhh, well... who cares? But if Dinosaurs eat ex-wife. Now that's something.

[MacAl Stone]

not to interrupt the flow of writing-discussion, but I'm still experiencing computer technical difficulties...but the ad-aware thing is REALLY cool...I'll heartily endorse it. Beats the heck out of staying up all night with your manuals, searching for exe files you don't recognize...

meanwhile, since my word perfect is malfunctioning, the file is on its way to Q, who is confident he can convert it and email it to Uncle Jim...

It sounds as if Uncle Jim has been reading slush again.

Mac

[Di 418]

Hi All,

I've been lurking around reading this thread for a few days now, and finally decided to asked a question I haven't seen referenced here, or anywhere else that I can tell.

When does an idea/concept used in a story become 'public domain'?

For example, take vampires...we've all hear the theories of what they can and can't do, and most are generally accepted as standard now. But specifically, take the idea that vampires can't see their reflection in a mirror. Could someone else use that idea in their own book if it was a new concept?

I asked this because I'm almost finished with my first novel, and a friend of mine, who also happens to help critique my writing, gave me a novel she recently found...and my idea (which I proudly thought was original :smack ) was used in a book already published.

Now I'm not sure I can publish (positive thinking here) without violating this other persons copyrights. I'm really bummed about this, but I'm hoping/wondering if since this is a concept (like the mirror example above) and not the whole story---is it okay??

Are there any rules governing this? Or am I just out of luck with my book? (And just to clarify...I'm not looking for legal advice. Just general practices, rules, and guidelines that are considered standard within the writing community).

Thanks, and btw, I love this website! Great stuff here!!!

[Fresie]

Oh, jeez. I'm a mystery writer. A bit of a surprise, considering I write surreal fantasy :eek

Mind you, I love reading mysteries, but I always thought I was incapable of writing one. Maybe now I'll pluck up the courage. Nothing like a good murderous bad guy... :hat

[Fresie]

Outside the window she heard a redundant owl.

Uncle Jim, I wonder if you collect these things? Some collection it must be!

Maybe you could share a few more? :coffee

[Jules Hall]

So write a surreal fantasy mystery! Should be an interesting read, at least... :)

I, too, am a mystery writer, according to that test. And I do always like to keep a little bit of mystery back until at least half way through my stories... the identity of the primary villain in my current novel, the fact that the gods aren't really gods in my next one. It may be a cliche, but at least that means nobody will struggle to adjust to it :)

And I think a redundant owl is one that no longer has a job.

[Jules Hall]

Di -- you can't really copyright an idea. Copyright applies to entire stories, so you can't just rip them off wholesale, but the concepts behind them aren't really copyrightable.

That's not to say you can always get away with it though. A story that's too derivitive might be unpublishable because everyone who reads it thinks it's too much like <some well known story>.

But as long as what you're writing is at least a new twist on the old concept, this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[maestrowork]

You cannot copyright ideas and concepts. You can only copyright your story or treatment (outline, etc.)

The only thing you have to ask yourself: Is your story unique enough to stand on it's own? Is your story/treatment original despite the common idea? If your ideas/plot/story/characters are so close to the other book, then you need to re-evaluate your originality.

E.g. A volcano blows up and destroy a whole town. Same idea, two different movies: "Dante Peak" and "Volcano."

[Fresie]

What I DO love about mysteries is that they have to have a watertight plot by definition. And I'm here hoping to learn proper plotting first of all.

There was a question in that quiz, about mentioning a colour, and one of the answers was, Does it advance the plot? This is my idea of good writing. I remember when I was a kid I was reading a novella by Clifford Simac and how impressed I was when I came to the end and discovered that every piece of information mentioned in the beginning actually backfired in the climax! That was the day I realized I wanted to do such things, too.

[maestrowork]

Well, to me, plot isn't everything (that's why I am a character/dialogue writer :b ).

Not every word has to advance the plot. Uncle Jim said: it must either advance the plot, develop the character, or add to the theme. "Color" would be such thing. Of course, it'd be great if it could achieve all three. For example, I think this would make a wonderful first paragraph of a novel or short story:

"Her favorite color is red: rose, fuchsia, crimson. Blood. Like the color on her hands now."

[Fresie]

Well, to me, plot isn't everything (that's why I am a character/dialogue writer ).

Oh, absolutely. There're such irresistible things as character, style and atmosphere. And dialogue.


What I probably meant was what I wanted to learn. I admire plotting skills because I seem to have none to begin with. My plotting sucks big time. I'm here watching and listening to you all trying to figure out how to pull my own stories together. At the moment, they have way more style and atmosphere about them than actually story. :o

[maestrowork]

My plotting sucks big time.

Why? What stops you from devicing good plot?

I like the book "Plot: Elements of Fiction Writing" by Ansen Dibell. You may want to pick up a copy from your local library.

[ChunkyC]

Outside the window she heard a redundant owl.
If I was reading this sentence in a story, I'd also like to know if it is the owl, or she, who is outside the window. Love these succinct lessons, Uncle Jim.

[Jules Hall]

I think if "she" was outside the window it would need a comma.

Aside: Every time I post here with a different subject line, Mozilla adds a new entry to the stored login details it offers to let me use... :bang

[James D Macdonald]

He's an ungodly albino cop whom everyone believes is mad. She's an orphaned thirtysomething barmaid from a secret island of warrior women.

Those are the characters.

They fight crime!

That's the plot.

<hr>

Together those make story.

<hr>

[Fresie]

What stops you from devicing good plot?

Thanks a lot for the book, I think I must check it. Well, usually I get this feeling about my characters and the place they're in. And the climax, of course -- I can see the scene. But I've got no idea how to get them there (how to take the horse to the water) and for what reasons they're going to participate in this gorgeous scene called climax. A big gap. Sometimes, like with my last WIP, a breakthrough happens through the hero's characterization, but usually I just don't seem to be able to think coldly and logically. :bang

[James D Macdonald]

Fresie, have you tried either the Positional Chess method or the Celtic Knotwork method of plotting?

[Fresie]

Fresie, have you tried either the Positional Chess method or the Celtic Knotwork method of plotting?

I really meant to ask you about the Celtic Knotwork, Uncle Jim, but I didn't dare because I haven't finished reading the thread yet and I thought maybe you say more about it in the pages I haven't read. In fact, I'm fascinated by this idea and I can see how it refers to plotting, too. I can see that the threads are different storylines all intertwined and connected, but I wondered if you could give some concrete example how a certain pattern might refer to a story told in this pattern?

On the contrary, I understand the chess analogy perfectly well, but I'm just not a very good chess player because I can't make myself confront and fight other people, even on a chess board. :cry

But the Celtic Knotwork, I really love this one and intend to sit down tonight (I only read about it this afternoon) and see how I can apply it. Still, could you please explain it a bit more, in connection with actual writing, maybe?

Thank you!

Fresie

[James D Macdonald]

For the chess analogy -- you don't need to play others. Work out the example games in Logical chess and understand why the moves are made.

<hr>

Celtic knotwork (http://www.abbott.demon.co.uk/knots.html). Gracious. This is hard to do without pictures, but I'll try.

Construct a nice bit of knotwork, using your favorite method.

Let's do a nice linear border-kind of knot. It starts there to the left, runs to the right.

You have various <a href="http://www.entrelacs.net/en.5.php" target="_new">walls</a> in place to make it interesting.

Now ... over there at the far right, is your climax, right? Who's there? Name the strands that pass through the climax with those people's names. I hope that you have two left-over strands, because we're going to name them for themes, one positive one negative (Honor/deceit for example).

Now color the lines back to the beginning, using different colors.

The opening scene will have those characters who arrive at the beginning (due to walls and such, some characters who were at the end may not arrive at the beginning. Add in different characters for those few).

Now, decide how long your chapters are going to be. Say you're doing thirty ten-page chapters.

Divided the braid into thirty segments.

Look at each segment. Which strand is on top? Which strands are mostly covered? Which are in the foreground? Which are moving most rapidly across the knot?

Those are your chapters, there is your focus, there is your motion.

Now, dream.

Dream, and type.

Someday soon, I may talk about how to use filecards.

[maestrowork]

All these methods (celtic knotwork, chess, road trip, etc.) all point to one thing: movement. Plot is about movement: how do you move a set of characters and "things" through time/space to reach your destination (climax)?

Put your characters in a situation/place and have them do something. If you know the "feel" of these characters, then let them loose. The important thing is, have them do something that has consequences -- consequences lead to plot. If you just have people sit around talking about feelings and stuff, you will find it hard to "move" them, unless, in your dialogue you indicate movement, such as:

"I don't love you anymore."
"In that case, I am moving to Paris with your only child."
"You can't do that!"
"Watch me."
-- consequences... your next plot would happen in Paris, for example, when one character chases after the other. Or, in the bedroom when one character is murdered... so many different options, depending on your story, theme and ending.


As your characters do things that lead to consequences, you will get a better feel of where they should be in the next scenes. If you have multiple treads (celtic knotwork), explore those threads, intercutting between them. The point is, move them along that line toward end goal.

Again, it's all about movement.

Use everything you can to create movements: props (clocks, money, airline tickets, bomb, sexy underwear...), characters (somebody does something that prompts more actions..), dialogue (to indicate directions, intention that lead to action), conflicts (conflict almost always result in actions)...

[Fresie]

Wow. Thank you so much, Uncle Jim, and you, maestro. I think I'm beginning to understand what it's about and looks like I'm going to love it. Now I need to have a good think. 8o

BTW, I got so inspired that I borrowed a chess set from neighbors' and played a game with my hubby. First, it didn't hurt as much as I thought it would and I discovered I could actually think straight and plan ahead (hurraah!!). Second, my hubby was pleasantly surprised I wanted us to do something together instead of turning my back on him to write, as I usually do. To make it even more pleasant for him, I let him win.

[Chris Goja]

Ok, my friends,

I've posted the first three chapters over at Share Your Work, and any and all comments are very welcome, before I present it to Jim for editing.... *knee tremble*

Thanx.

Chris



P.S. The working title is Silent Knight. If anyone has any better suggestion I'd appreciate it.

[James D Macdonald]

Chris's story is <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=285.topic" target="_new">here</a>.

[Jenny]

Hi all

Having lurked for far too long without contributing anything, I'd like to say a huge thank you to all the clever people who've added so much to my understanding of what it takes to write a novel.

On the question of plotting, I recently read a book (by Jack Bickham) which said each scene should have a scene question which fits into the overarching story question. As far as I can understand, this helps with momentum and consistency and theme.

Like, the story question is will she save the boy from attack by aliens and the first scene question is "Will she come to believe in aliens in time?" and the trick is to answer each scene question with a kind of twist. So she doesn't believe in aliens, but still takes the right first steps to save the boy. I hope I'm making sense.

Anyway, for me, checking that each of my major scenes is actually serving a purpose, and a purpose related to the driving story question, is proving really useful. I guess you can tell from this note, I waffle.

Cheers

Jenny

[James D Macdonald]

Yes. Every scene (not just the major ones, every one) needs to serve a purpose in your book.

You wouldn't glue a flowerpot to the hood of your car and tie a bedframe to the back bumper, just because you happened to have a flowerpot and a bedframe, would you?

Anything that fails to contribute to the story detracts from it.