Writers: How do you develop your story? Formula or wing it?

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Optimus

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Just wondering. I couldn't decide which forum to put this in, as it seems to apply to all types of fiction writing.

This post was inspired by a few other threads I've been involved in lately where I've discussed the differences (however slight) between dramaturgical and novelistic writing.

Do you find that every story you write is unique, with no similar themes or sentiments from one story to the next, and none follow any type of conventional structural formula or pattern? (that's pretty danged hard to do)

Do you subscribe more to a structural formula, either partially or fully, such as Campbell's "Monomyth," a type of structural template which, intentionally (consciously) or not, your stories tend to usually follow?

Do your stories usually fit into a type of structural template that is DIFFERENT from the classic monomyth ("hero's journey")? What is your formula?

Do you even think in terms of formulaic writing, or do you eschew such concepts as baroque and cliche, and follow Vonnegut's idea of the "In the Hole" theory....where you basically write a story which involves your protagonist falling in a hole, figuratively, and then climbing out of the hole?


Just wondering how people feel about these things in regards to how they approach their stories.
 
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KTC

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I just write. No formula. No outline. No preconceived plan. My mind doesn't work that way. I'm terrible with concepts of plans in every aspect of my life, not just writing. I guess I just wing it with everything I do.
 

Gehanna

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The writing I do, regardless of being fiction or non-fiction, comes mainly from the events in my dreams. What part I am given, I take and make complete.

Then KTC edits it for clarity. *grin*

Have a good day all. I'm off to work.
 

Fractured_Chaos

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I've discovered that if I plan too much, I lose the joy of discovery, and then the writing becomes a chore.

I think I'll just go with "winging" it. :D

I can always clean it up in edit, right?
 

Carole

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I totally wing it. Let it never be said that I am ever at a loss for words. I just take that & run with it. I was reading a book last night about writing from personal experience. She had a lot of exercises, but the funny thing is that I do those already...almost on a daily basis. It's just what I do.

My biggest problem right now is that once I have written on and on, I am left with the mess I have now...a ton of info that has to be organized after the fact. I guess that's beter than fighting with myself to have something to put down in the first place.
 

pconsidine

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I've found that it totally depends on the story. Characters that I have an organic connection to I can write totally off the cuff. If I've gotten a little more clever and created a story that I don't know as much about, then I have to plan it out more. Usuallly, that planning is part of the process I use for learning about my characters so the actual prose has something like life to it.

My brain is very stingy at times and I have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get the damn story out.
 

Jaycinth

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My characters whisper to me when I'm asleep.

Notes. Everytime a scene or dialogue flashes through my mind, I try to write it down. Papertowels, paper bags, the back of receipts, and a little notebook I carry around. ( The 12 or 13th in a series of little notebooks) I e-mail myself stuff. Then I read them over and try to create a "batch outline" and fit them in. From there, I read it over, try to detach my mind from reality and let the characters tell me what to fill in.

If that doesn't work, I ask my cat.
 

Optimus

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I'm not necessarily talking about character as much as story structure. For those of you who just wing it and feel that your story is sometimes a bit of a "mess" that you need to "clean up" in rewrites, do you think that maybe a structural template might be useful to you?

How many of you guys outline your stories first?
 

WVWriterGirl

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If I outline my story first, I might as well take it in the back yard and bury it, 'cause its dead. I can't get interested in a story where I already know the ending. It's like when I watched the movie "The Sixth Sense" for the first time; someone had already told me the ending, so it wasn't that interesting to me.

However, even though I'm winging it when I write it, I find that my stories usually unconsciously fall into one of the archetypes. If I'm writing a fantasy piece, it's gonna be a "hero's journey" type peice, even though I don't realize it when I'm writing it. When I'm writing horror or dark fantasy, it's some version of "damsel in distress" that my story ends up being. I don't realize it, though, until I read the finished product.
 

Storyteller5

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I don't plot and outline. Did you read King's On Writing? I like the way he talks about the story being a fossil you uncover as you go. I have a rough idea where I am going. On second draft, I deal with looking for theme and polishing. I think my themes are often similar. :)
 

Optimus

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I haven't read that book. Sounds interesting, though. Of course, being a budding screenwriter, much of what I read is specific to the structure of dramaturgy (McKee's Story[/b] is good).

However, I find Campbell's extrapolations very prudent for all types of writing. Christopher Vogler wrote a great book (geared more toward screenwriters/playwrights) based on Campbell's "monomyth," called The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Storytellers.

Of course, the book is somewhat controversial as the pedants have a negative view of it for "ripping off Campbell" or whatever and some "writers" have a negative view on anything which tries to "tell" them how they "should" write.

It does nothing of the sort. It simply points out things that writers may or may not have noticed and helps writers to understand how the monomyth ("Hero's Journey") can be applied to writing. It gives examples of popular books and movies (like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings) where this structure was used and explains how it was used in those stories.

If you are thristy for ways to improve your writing, this book will help. It's basically, "Campbell's Hero's Journey for Dummies," and takes Campbell's extrapolations on mythic structure and makes them more accessible/applicable for writers.

I think Jenna even did an interview with Chris and it's on the main site somewhere.

Digressing...

I find it interesting that the majority of novelists I talk to/hear from don't outline while the majority of screenwriters I interact with do. I'm not sure what to make of that or what it means, but I do find it interesting that there seems to be such a disparity (subjectively, of course) between writers of these two mediums/genres.
 

maestrowork

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I just write... but if there ever is a formula, I'd say it's a structural one. Beginning, middle, end... a hook... linear vs. circular... etc. Those are not really formulae, I guess, but best practices -- what works for most stories (particularly short stories)...

I do adopt some type of standard structure/formula to my reviews.
 

samgail

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lists, outlines and post-its-oh no!

I love newnovelist. I am relatively new to fiction, I am a virgo, I travel, drink, eat, cook, write, sleep and make lists and I really do like this software. I don't use it exclusively, I still have legal notebooks every vehicle, bathroom and bedroom.I found notes in the middle of my sons history notebook but it was because we were in a rental and there were no legal pads. I like that I can take sticky notes,post-its, notecards(the ones on the spiral binding with three different colors are my favorite-they can go anywhere) and my recorder and put them all into newnovelist and it will print out a hard copy of work so far-Brilliant!. No one makes you do it in any certain order, you work at your own pace and you can edit the sh*t out of it. It also gives me a chance to develop characters without any hassle. I keep it up on my home computer and use it when I am stuck. The simple seemingly rudimentary questions it poses about the story, settings and characters give me the opportunity to work on my manuscripts without having to wait until I am inspired.
Sam
 

Fractured_Chaos

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Optimus said:
I'm not necessarily talking about character as much as story structure. For those of you who just wing it and feel that your story is sometimes a bit of a "mess" that you need to "clean up" in rewrites, do you think that maybe a structural template might be useful to you?

How many of you guys outline your stories first?

Well, for me, at least, that structural template doesn't seem to do me any good until after the story is written. I go through and make notes for revisions, and outline (sorta kinda) from there.
 

Carole

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I started reading a book yesterday and I just had to put it down. The topic was writing and selling non-fiction. It was written in 1967, but it didn't occur to me to check that part out before I took it from the library.

Do you think the rules have really changed a lot since the 60's? I mean, this guy was unbeleivable! He was even yammering on about women's magazines and how easy they are to write for...an easy way to make a buck..because the magazines are loaded and the readers don't care about content. Just fluff. You should be embarassed if you can't whip up a stack of articles for a women's magazine in a day, apparently. When he went on to the topic on men's magazines, his entire tone changed.

His exercises and rules about how to write were very rigid, too. In his opinion, if you don't start writing at the same time every day and stop writing at the same time every day (no matter where you happen to be in your thought process), you will never be a *real* writer and should give it up now because you have no discipline.

Now, I totally agree with the discipline thing...but this guy was too much!
 

Optimus

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Eh...maybe some of the "rules" regarding format have changed, but not the rules regarding structure. The rules of structure have been around since the first great story was ever told. There are paradigms and templates of structure that are organic to storytelling. Great stories aren't great simply because the writer followed some "magic formula." Great stories are great because they follow an organic structure that audiences/readers want.
 

Angela

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Perhaps screenwriters outline more because they're working in a different format? I think that you have to develop your characters a bit differently when you're screenwriting, since you're specifically writing with the intent of creating a movie. That's just my personal opinion, I know next to nothing of screenwriting.

I don't outline my stories, either. I've found that when I'm writing, the outline isn't worth anything. (for ME, from MY experience) When I'm writing, it usually gets to a point to where the story just unfolds and begins to write itself. The words start coming faster than I can write them. I can have a definite idea about a character in the beginning of the story, only to have them later tell me, "Oh, no. This isn't me. I've got a dirty little secret that you didn't know about. THIS is the REAL me!" I've had events that I WANTED to put in the story, but the story doesn't agree. I've had events that I didn't want to happen in a story, but the story insists that these events are imperative. Even in creative writing in high school, my outlines were worthless. My stories never followed them, but they were still good stories.

Sometimes, and only sometimes, I'll sit down and write out things about my characters, especially if I'm dealing with the past and the present at the same time. For example, if I'm talking about someone's 4th great grandfather, I'll actually sit down and create something of a genealogical chart for the family, complete with birth/death/marriage dates. That's about as far as I go in the area of outlining. I don't try to outline events, planning the events from beginning to end, because some of those things will happen differently than I had outlined, others won't happen at all, and things will happen that I never knew would happen. Sometimes it feels like I don't write the story, sometimes it feels like the story is just using me as a medium to write itself. *blush* That probably sounds really kooky...

Kooky or not, I don't outline, because they just don't work for me.
 

maestrowork

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Optimus said:
I find it interesting that the majority of novelists I talk to/hear from don't outline while the majority of screenwriters I interact with do.

Screenwriting and novel writing are two different discipline. Sure, they both tell a story, but screenwriting is very much about structures, closely coupled with the structures of a feature film/TV show, etc. Screenwriters are confined by that structure (one minute per page, scene headings, etc.) plus the style: all show, no tell -- write only what can be shown on screen... etc. Structures such as 3 or 4 acts, or the fact that many films stick to the "Hero's Journey" paradym, makes it easier or necessary to create an outline. Knowing where your story is going, how it's going to end, who the major characters are, and the ability to visualize the whole thing cinematically make it easier to fit the screenplay in that rigid format. Without an outline, it could get really confusing and also the script could spiral out of control. Also there are some implicit or explicit "rules" about movies -- the number of scenes, the length of the scenes, etc. etc. Meanwhile, in novels, the whole book could be ONE eternal scene if the novelist chooses to write it that way.

Novels are more relaxed in structure, length, and the way the story unfolds. Sure, there are best practices and guidelines, but in general, anything goes in novels. There are linear stories and there are circular ones. The plot can go upward, downward, backward, sideways... you can skip something for 10 chapters than come back to it... The reason, people can do many things with a book -- they can skip chapters, then can go back, they can close the book and put it away for months... You can't do that with movies... When you get that audience captive for only 90 minutes, you do not want them to leave the theater. That's why the structure, pacing... and knowing where your story is going are so important in screenwriting.

When I wrote my first novel, I basically had a story in my head and an outline of some sort, but soon I deviated from that outline because my characters took me places I didn't even know existed... But when I tried to adapt that book to a screenplay, it became easier because I knew exactly how the plot unfolded, and what all the scenes were. The trick was to structure it in the right way for the screen. Being both a novelist AND a screenwriter makes me realize the differences. Storyboarding (which is really part of an outline) becomes very important in the screenwriting process. If you're adapting a novel to the screen, the novel would become your outline. On the other hand, while many novelists outline, it is not really necessary.
 

aruna

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I wing it. Often, I have no idea what I'm going to write when I start a new book, and I the story grip me and take me along.

Optimus said:
For those of you who just wing it and feel that your story is sometimes a bit of a "mess" that you need to "clean up" in rewrites, do you think that maybe a structural template might be useful to you?

No.
 

Optimus

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I think some are confusing "story content" and/or "format" for "story structure."

Structure is independent of content. Granted, oftentimes the discussion can become confusing, as we talk about story structure (the "hero's journey") and then also talk about genre structure (dramatic versus novelistic) in the same breath. But, regardless, structure is separate from story content.

Structure is the foundation you lay your story content upon.

Story content might be a guy, a girl, a love story, dialogue, actions, a tragic accident, etc. Story structure is how those pieces are put together and in what order they're put together. For a great story, the two must work in harmony. However, since they are two separate components of story telling, many stories eschew the importance of crafting them both to perfection.

Many stories are full of great content - amazing dialogue, well-developed characters, exciting sequences, etc. - but are structured poorly to the effect that the story seems disjointed and sloppy. The hero may not seem to arc or accomplish anything, not enough tension is built, the payoffs aren't satisfying, etc. These elements are all part of structure; the way in which you put your story together.

As was said in another discussion I'm having on another board, structure (metaphorically) is the "language" in which you tell your story, NOT the content. I could say "What is your name" in English. Then say, "Cual es to nombre" or "Como se llama" in Spanish. Then say, "Ni de min tsu jiao se me" in Mandarin. In each case, the content is the same; I've delivered the same message. But, the language I've delivered it in is different.

According to the findings of Campbell and many, many others who've studied story and myth, stories across all cultures follow a similar structure (a "universal language," per Deus' metaphor), which is exclusive from content. This is, of course, based on his studies of social anthropology and psychology (Jungian). This, of course, begs the "chicken and egg" question about story structure. Do we tell myths and stories structured in this way because that is how we like to tell stories, or do we seek out stories told in such a structure because that is what we respond to best? Well, per the language metaphor, it's both. It's (the "hero's journey" or "monomyth") a natural, organic way to tell stories. I think it's a part of human nature to both tell and respond to stories in this structure.

The content of the stories can be dramatically (as in significantly) different - different characters, different actions, different situations, different stories altogether, but the structure - the way in which they are put together (for the story to truly be great and affect the audience) - might best be served following the universal model.

This (the fact that the greatest stories have all followed a very similar structure) should not be viewed as a bad thing, or limiting, in any way. On the contrary, it should be viewed as a way to enhance your stories and take them to the next level.

Every story has different content needs and story formulas. Rom coms have a "boy meets girl. Boy gets girl. Boy loses girl. Boy wins girl back" type of story formula. However, this is a story content formula and has little to do with the structure of the story elements (how they are put together).

Of course, he author may start out writing a character a certain way, but then the character changes or "tells" the author that it wants to act in a different way (i.e. a "surprise" to the author), but the story should always be moving in a focused direction (my opinion, of course).

There should always be two (main) goals in a story: the story goal and the protagonist's goal. I think that losing sight of either of these, or not even having them in the first place, may lead to a disjointed, sloppy, poorly structured story. But, it's poor structure is the very thing that makes it disjointed and sloppy and, thus, means it will never sell.

As far as outlining goes, I find it hard to wrap my brain around the idea of "not outlining." It seems odd to me to start a story and not know at least the beginning or end, not know the protagonist's goal(s), not know the major plot points, etc. I know that Stephen King doesn't outline...but he's Stephen King. I believe John Grisham does, and many interviews of published novelists I've read recently say that they outline as well (of course, not all do. Everyone has their own way of writing. But, the majority of the interviews I've read assert that those authors outline, at least to a small degree).

I don't think a person has to totally outline the story content, but at least make sure the story follows a logical structure.

But, to each his/her own. I don't do extremely detailed outlines, but I at least flesh out the goals of my protag and some of the major plot points (per my story structure). Not saying everyone should, I just don't understand how one could not know these things before writing one's story.
 
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Optimus

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I got this moved to this forum to see if I could get more novelist responses. I'm just interested in hearing different takes on story structure, from a novelistic rather than a dramaturgical point of view.
 

aruna

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I absolutely know the difference between content and structure.
I do the structuring afterwards, after I've got the content down. It's been like that from my very first book, which has a very complicated structure. The structure was put into place in a later draft.
 
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Optimus

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Aruna, it was a general statement, not aimed at you. Sorry if it came off that way. :(


Hmm...maybe I should try a more free-flowing form of writing for a future script. No outlining, just go with the flow and see what happens. Might be really interesting. Of course, I'd have to kill myself during rewrites, to pare it down to fit screenwriting's rigid format, but I think it might be interesting to see what I come up with.

You guys have me curious now.
 
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