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View Full Version : Infinity vs Diggory


Epicman
08-17-2005, 03:11 AM
I have a non-fiction book completed and time is my main reason for looking into pod rather than trying the traditional route. I believe that a traditional publisher may pick it up after release without my having to wait in line trying to get an agent, then the publisher, etc.

Anyhow, I was seriously considering Infinity when someone pointed me to diggery. Here are the differeces:

Infinity/Diggery

Setup 798/260
(Equivalent services)

Author copies 4.53/3.53

fulfilment price depends/5.31

Royalty 20%ret/10%ws/royalty=retail-discount-5.31

Returns YES/NO

time from 60-90 days/2 weeks
submission to print

They both list on amazon, B&N, Booksinprint, Ingram, etc. Diggery lists on the UK and European sites as well. (Diggery is based in UK but have a partnership in US where all US author's books are printed/shipped in US.)

The 2 main differences is that Infinity takes returns and Diggery does not and Infinity counts and pays 10% royalty on author sales (but it's a $1 higher) while Diggery does not (but a $1 cheaper). Both appear to have a similar quality and shipping times.

The bottom line for my book for setup and the first 200 copies is

$1800 to Infinity $966 to Diggery

My royalty will also be higher with Diggery than Infinity.

My issues: Is a bookstore return policy worth paying nearly double the cost, a reduction in royalties, and up to a two-and-a-half month wait?

(I can set a wholesale discount at Diggery from 35% to 55% also)

Help me out here. I know a return policy is important to bookstores but don't they give POD's a hard time anyway? I mean I might have an easier time at stores I approach in person locally - but that does'nt seem worth it to me.
Besides, if this goes over like I think it will I think bookstores will carry it at 55% discount without a return policy and I will still make $2.75 a copy.

What do you think?

Richard
08-17-2005, 03:32 AM
Besides, if this goes over like I think it will I think bookstores will carry it at 55% discount without a return policy and I will still make $2.75 a copy.

Er...Good luck. The question you need to ask here is 'Will any bookstores actually carry this?' If they won't, a return policy means precisely jack ****.

The company just making it available to bookstores, or letting people order individual copies from them, doesn't mean anything at all. They say 'We also sell books to bookstores and distributors, and take returns on those books that don't sell. Stores love to purchase our books!', so they shouldn't have any problem supplying some specific names of stores that regularly purchase chunks of their catalogue, or books that you can find in your local area, right? If not, the key question becomes 'Exactly why is mine going to be any different?' - and in most cases, the answer to that is going to be 'It won't'.

(Ingram, Amazon, B&N online and the like are irrelevant - everyone offers those - and if you ask me, any fee in triple digits for slapping together a cover and uploading a file to a server is pure madness when you can go via Lulu for free. Infinity's Marketing packages are almost as bad. How they can say '$470 - Our Deluxe package Includes 25 free books' is quite beyond me...)

Epicman
08-17-2005, 04:35 AM
It's DIGGORY PRESS not Diggery

PVish
08-17-2005, 07:02 AM
Anyhow, I was seriously considering Infinity when someone pointed me to diggery. Here are the differeces:
Infinity/Diggery
Setup 798/260
(Equivalent services)



When did Infinity go up so high? Their basic price was $499 three months ago (and I paid less than that with some discounts!) All you need is the basic price.

Shouldn't this discussion be on the POD & eBook thread in The Book World?

logos1234567
08-17-2005, 04:35 PM
I though epicman's pricing was wrong so I looked at Diggory Press's website. The prices Epicman is quoting for Diggory Press include an ISBN number (which LULU does not give for free), a cover design (for cheaper epicman could submit his own) proper listing on websites including uploading cover images and descriptions (which LULU does not do) a proof copy and listing in Ingram catalog! (again not free anywhere else) so it is a lot better than 'just uploading a file and slapping on a cover'.

What is more, I have found Diggory will take returns IF the author provides a contingency fund for the cost of their printing (as returns are destroyed).

Richard
08-17-2005, 05:14 PM
Logos, that doesn't make any sense. I've yet to see a POD whose cover design is anything but the most generic tat, so that's unlikely to be worth the cash from anyone. Atlanta Nights, complete with cover and description, via Lulu (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1411622987/qid=1124282143/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-6204049-3343348?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). A free copy of a book that cost the publisher basically nothing to produce? Sorry, when you're paying over $500, that world loses all rational meaning.

What's your argument here? That Lulu will give you the same basic service, complete with all the commercial bits that will never be paid for by the POD, for around $150? Come on. You've got to come up with a better argument than that.

What is more, I have found Diggory will take returns IF the author provides a contingency fund for the cost of their printing (as returns are destroyed)

Yay! Paying twice for your own book! Go team!

James D. Macdonald
08-17-2005, 06:00 PM
Atlanta Nights, complete with cover and description, via Lulu (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1411622987/qid=1124282143/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-6204049-3343348?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

I did that myself. What Lulu gives you is the cover graphic, and complete instructions on how to send it to amazon.com, bn.com, and bordersstores.com -- the other appearances of the cover (Target, Wal*Mart, Powell's, etc.) are all sucked from one or another of those places.

All three of those places had specific requirements and formats for the uploads, but the Lulu instruction sheet was clear, and it worked fine.
---------------

The bottom line:

POD works fine, and may even be your best choice, if you already know by name everyone who will buy your book, or expect to be looking them in the eye when money changes hands.

Outside of specialized non-fiction, POD/self publication/vanity publication doesn't work particularly well for wider audiences.

Richard
08-17-2005, 07:31 PM
Yeah - what I meant was that there's nothing stopping you from having it there because you've been printed by Lulu.

aka eraser
08-17-2005, 07:43 PM
I'm going to punt this one over to the POD/Self-Pubbing board.

logos1234567
08-17-2005, 11:41 PM
Logos, that doesn't make any sense. I've yet to see a POD whose cover design is anything but the most generic tat, so that's unlikely to be worth the cash from anyone.

The cover charge (which is optional) from Diggory Press is peanuts, my main point was saying that epicman's quote from them obviously comprised that as well as other services not just the 'uploading'.

I know LULU do free cover templates but the way they are formatted can look really awful with the text not as you want it as they are all automatically computer generated whereas at least Diggory's are formatted by a human. Also you have to design your own rear cover if you want to add rear text at LULU. Many lulu authors cannot do this. I know you are a computer whizz but many are not.

A free copy of a book that cost the publisher basically nothing to produce? Sorry, when you're paying over $500, that world loses all rational meaning

You're not paying over $500. Epicman said himself it was $260, $90 of which was the isbn and listing services, $20 for the proof, and $60.00 for the Ingram catalog and $40 for the front and rear covers design.

If you were to omit the last two then that's only $160.

JUST Lulu's ISBN costs $149.95, (their basic one for $34.95 is not worth much as it will not get you onto amazon etc) and with your first copy from LULU plus postage that works out the same as the $160.00 to Diggory, perhaps slightly more to LULU depending how big your book is or where you live (as LULU's international postage is horrendously slow and unreliable..)

What is more Diggory will list you properly whereas LULU won't. LULU might tell you how to list yourself on their forums but that's not the point. Diggory Press will also list you considerably quicker than LULU will...everywhere.


What's your argument here? That Lulu will give you the same basic service, complete with all the commercial bits that will never be paid for by the POD, for around $150? Come on. You've got to come up with a better argument than that..

As mentioned it is not the same basic service.

If the above is not enough for you, Diggory really comes into its own with its copy and fulfilment prices and FLEXIBILITY. You keep harping on that LULU is free as if you are blind to their other prices. If you are just buying one copy then LULU are cheaper by miles, agreed. BUT if you buy more than a few copies (as most authors do) then Diggory's subsequent copy prices are miles cheaper and make them a worthy contender. (NB They also do hardback and trade paperback size which LULU do not do)

For 200 books of 144 pages as per epicman's book

LULU $5.15 each = $1030.00
Diggory Press $3.53 each = $706.00 SAVING $324.00*

*NB. If you are in the UK like me you'd save a lot more than this as you would save LULU's horrendous shipping charges that also take forever to arrive...Diggory Press print in either the US or the UK depending where the order comes from.)

On further orders epicman makes if he buys just one copy:

LULU $7.41
Diggory $5.54

50 copies:

LULU $6.29
Diggory $5.06

Hmm...tough choice, eh???

And now we go to fulfilment. For epicman:

LULU 7.41
Diggory 5.34

On LULU retail price of $21.12, you'd get $4.00 on a 200 page book offered at 50% wholesale discount. However I know that even though you offer 50%, Ingrams only offer these out at something like 15% so somewhere along the line someone else is taking another cut as well as Ingrams cut when you use LULU.

On Diggory Press at 50% discount you'd get $21.12-10.56-6.18=$4.38...

38 cents more per sale and we all know every penny helps, right? Also there is not that extra middleman cut that happens with LULU. Ok Ingram take a cut, but all wholesalers do. My point is like for like, Ingram would offer the book at a higher discount through Diggory than they would through LULU.

And if that ain't enough, the beauty with Diggory Press is you do not have to offer a minimum of 50% as with LULU...you can make the discount anywhere from 25% plus...25% is fine for amazon and online sales which is mainly where pods sell (you an offer a higher discount to your local bookstores etc) - why offer more discount that you need to? So:

21.12-25%= 15.84 - 6.18 fulfilment price= $9.66 royalties
more than double LULUS.

Go figure!!!

Yay! Paying twice for your own book! Go team!

You're not paying twice as you're not prepaying for the copies that go out to amazon etc. You are not ever paying for them. Therefore of course Diggory have to cover their own butts or they would be way out of pocket. Think about it.

ps
Can you tell I used to be an accountant?

Richard
08-17-2005, 11:55 PM
Sorry, I confused Diggity with Infinity in the above post. You're right - the amount he specified is much lower. Fair enough.

Epicman
08-18-2005, 09:19 AM
Thanks Logos - you found a few things I didnt know - like the return policy. If my book goes as well as I think it will I will let them take up the fund from royalties due to me - one other way I'll let it pay for itself. I put up a new lengthy post on the Beware - Infinity thread if you want to see more on this. I also introduced my title and subject - in case you are curious.

Epicman

victoriastrauss
02-05-2008, 07:36 PM
For more information on Diggory Press, see this thread (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72074) in the Bewares & Background Check forum.

- Victoria