Book recommendations for PLOT?

Ardent Kat said:

Can anyone recommend good how-to books that focus on plot? I've read lots of books on writing, editing, revising, etc. and I'm strong with setting and characters, but plot is still my weak point.

Specifically I'm looking for a book that identifies what makes a strong story, common mistakes to avoid, good ways to braid subplots, etc. A book that dissects the core elements of storytelling would be more useful than a book that just provides the author's particular system of shuffling notecards.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Hiyas, Kat!

I've had really great success with my experiences drawn from:

The Anatomy of Story by John Truby and Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight Swain. These are two books I keep on my desk next to my computer and refer back to time and again.

Just as a note, I just finished The Anatomy of Story and have used the techniques in there to good effect. A few things I disagreed with but I don't have to use everything he said, right?

Right now I'm reading Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maas and so far I have to say I'm not impressed with what he has to say. It seems all very high level stuff that doesn't get into the bones of what I want to pull away from a book on 'writing'. To be fair, I'm only on chapter three so that may change the further I get in.

Also, there is a discussion about this going on here, if you haven't checked it out yet.

I have 20 Master Plots by Ronald B. Tobias on my shelf. I bought it ten years ago, just found the bookmark on page 121, if that tells you anything.

I always liked Plot, by Ansen Dibell. Scene & Structure, by Jack Bickham is a good companion to that.

I liked Writing Fiction by Janet Burroway. You can find it in most libraries.

Danthia said:

I always liked Plot, by Ansen Dibell. Scene & Structure, by Jack Bickham is a good companion to that.

Click to expand...

Seconded, with the caveat that both are old so the exact structure they suggest isn't quite the same with what is used now. However, for the basics for understanding what goes into a plot, Scene & Structure can't be beat.

I like Jame Scott Bells, Plot and Structure. Very simple to read and by the end of the 1st chapter I was nodding in agreement on stuff I was already doing and not realizing why I was doing it.

What constitutes a good book on plot kind of depends on what you already think plot is.

- If you write stories about a hero, an antagonist, and a few bits of personal growth and insight that emerge from their long strenuous fight, there are three dozen books and some software about the hero's journey that would agree with you.

- If you write stories with a strong premise where the characters represent different thematic vectors and the story as a whole is like a rhetorical argument between them, with the climax being the final argument that results in the victory of one point of view aka the moral of the story, there are half a dozen books and once piece of software that develop this theory.

- If you write stories with the goal of putting your reader on an emotional rollercoaster, there are some books which focus on catharsis theory and maximizing conflict.

- If you are more interested in the physical structure of a manuscript into acts, scenes, and Freytag's triangle, There are some books about that too, although most fit into one of the above categories due to what the writer of the book believed plot was for. This topic tends to be more well-represented on webpages though, because most theories of structure aren't complicated enough to require more than a diagram and a few paragraphs of commentary.

So which of those types of books are you interested in?

I love Dibell's book. Definitely get it.

How odd. The recommended experts on how to write "good plot" are writers I have never heard of. Either I am hopelessly ignorant of the literary scene, or someone is selling snake oil.

I don't want to disrespect anyone who has read and approved these books, but I would like to ask if reading these "how to" guides has been any more benificial than just reading great novels.

Dickens, Nabakov, Updike etc never wrote "how to" guides for novel writing, despite them being absolutely brilliant at doing so. Will reading "How to write the Breakout Novel" teach anyone more than reading "Lolita" would? I should hope not.

Aschenbach said:

How odd. The recommended experts on how to write "good plot" are writers I have never heard of. Either I am hopelessly ignorant of the literary scene, or someone is selling snake oil.

I don't want to disrespect anyone who has read and approved these books, but I would like to ask if reading these "how to" guides has been any more benificial than just reading great novels.

Dickens, Nabakov, Updike etc never wrote "how to" guides for novel writing, despite them being absolutely brilliant at doing so. Will reading "How to write the Breakout Novel" teach anyone more than reading "Lolita" would? I should hope not.

Click to expand...

Why would you expect someone specialized in fiction to be particularly good at writing non-fiction such as writing how-to guides? Aristotle, author of the oldest work of literary theory we have, was not much of a fiction writer. Similarly, a successful novelist is probably too busy profitably writing novels to take time out to write a more risky nonfiction book.

Aside from all that, some of the best books on plot were written by playwrights/screenwriters. If you're only familiar with novels, you might not recognize the names of even really famous screenwriters.

The difference between reading a novel and reading a theory book is, you get immersed in the novel - that's why they're great - because they suck us into the story. But you don't learn much about structure or technique unless you actively analyze a book, probably with the aid of a pack of colored hi-lighters. Theorists on the other hand condense their wide reading/viewing/teaching experience for us into rules of thumb and explanations of the archetypal characters and structures of fiction and how those structures function.

Reading fiction is important to understanding fiction, but most writers have read thousands of novels, one more is not going to add a lot. On the other hand reading a book or writing theory can give you insights that wouldn't occur to you in your whole life because they are a product of a different personality than you have. Hearing what other people think about fiction helps you clarify your own thoughts, and adding others insights to your own experience can give you a broader and deeper understanding of what fiction is and does.

I don't want to disrespect anyone who has read and approved these books, but I would like to ask if reading these "how to" guides has been any more benificial than just reading great novels.

Click to expand...

Eating a great meal won't teach you to make the dishes. For that you need to learn cooking techniques and recipes.

Aside from all that, some of the best books on plot were written by playwrights/screenwriters. If you're only familiar with novels, you might not recognize the names of even really famous screenwriters.

Click to expand...

I like Save The Cat, which provides a simple, time tested template that makes a good starting point for most stories.

A good how-to guide (or writing classes, workshops, etc.) is like a good teacher, mentor, etc.. It is essential to someone's learning process. Don't expect any book or person to teach you everything you need to know, but they are very helpful in pushing you in the right direction.

If reading novels is enough to learn how to write novels, then everyone should be a novelist by now.

Like Hittman said, just because you like to eat great meals doesn't mean you now know how to make them, that you can become a gourmet chef just by having gourmet meals.

Just because you study buildings doesn't make you an architect.

Just because you watch movies doesn't make you a filmmaker.

So, just because you read novels doesn't make you a novelist. Insights and inspiration do not give you the specific techniques. Sure, studying these things would give you some insights into what works and what doesn't, and how others do it. Learn by absorption, but there's no substitute to actually a) learning the craft and b) doing it.

What these books on "plot" do -- if they're any good -- is not to show you how to plot by numbers. But instead, they make you think about the greatest plots in the world and why they work, and then deconstruct them and show you the structures, the mechanism of a good plot, the twists and turns that the writers take pain into creating, etc. etc. It's a guided tour of a city -- sure, one can choose to roam about a strange city on his own, but a guided tour is more effective...

maestrowork said:

What these books on "plot" do -- if they're any good -- is not to show you how to plot by numbers. But instead, they make you think about the greatest plots in the world and why they work, and then deconstruct them and show you the structures, the mechanism of a good plot, the twists and turns that the writers take pain into creating, etc. etc. It's a guided tour of a city -- sure, one can choose to roam about a strange city on his own, but a guided tour is more effective...

Click to expand...

This is it. Exactly.

I don't feel like I'm a dummy by any means and yet when I read books, I don't always (or even most of the time) see the underlying structure of the book. I don't see how it was all put together. I see (and enjoy) the final result.

I may recognize some things in it but my writing experience is still very weak. I may see something, a glimmer, a glance, just a sliver but that doesn't mean I know what it is that I'm reading.

The writing books I have read and recognized have taken the books apart and showed me what the parts are, how they fit together and how it all worked into an entertaining read.

Something I may have gotten on my own, after several years of reading...

...or I could get a leg up and a jump start and save myself years of reinventing the wheel.

Aschenbach said:

How odd. The recommended experts on how to write "good plot" are writers I have never heard of. Either I am hopelessly ignorant of the literary scene, or someone is selling snake oil.

I don't want to disrespect anyone who has read and approved these books, but I would like to ask if reading these "how to" guides has been any more benificial than just reading great novels.

Dickens, Nabakov, Updike etc never wrote "how to" guides for novel writing, despite them being absolutely brilliant at doing so. Will reading "How to write the Breakout Novel" teach anyone more than reading "Lolita" would? I should hope not.

Click to expand...

I don't want to make you feel like you're being dogpiled here, but this is the forum for basic writing questions. A forum for new writers to ask for advice. Your way is like telling a kid learning to play the recorder to 'just listen to Mozart and get on with it!' I exaggerate but you know what I mean.

Anyway, back on topic I really liked Plot & Structure by James Scott Bell.

Aschenbach said:

Will reading "How to write the Breakout Novel" teach anyone more than reading "Lolita" would? I should hope not.

Click to expand...

Oh, it has. I wished I'd read it before I wrote my first novel. Although The First Vial has done pretty well I've got a long way to go and I realized how far when I read Donald Maass' book. It has made me think in much more depth about my current WIP and I hope it will help me to write a richer story. These are the kinds of books it is helpful to read as a new writer. When you understand and are able to imiplement the essentials of what make a story appeal to the greatest number of readers then you're one step closer to print and the audience most writers want for their work.