Your favorite book about plotting?

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sunandshadow

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NOTICE: This thread is for people who want to discuss plotting techniques and theories. If you want to say "don't plot", "just write", or anything along those lines, please consider it already said; this is a valid opinion but Off Topic for this particular thread.


I mean a "how to write" type book which has either a large section about plot or is completely about plot. I'm always looking for new ones since plotting is my weak area and despite having read at least a dozen of these I still have a lot of difficulty with plot.

I'll add that my stories do not usually have a villain antagonist pitted against a hero protagonist, so a lot of the hero's journey-based plot theory is totally irrelevant. It's okay if one of those is your favorite, it just wouldn't be helpful to me personally.
 
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bearilou

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I have the same problems with plot you do!

Currently, I'm working my way through The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to becoming a Master Storyteller by John Truby. It breaks down the components of the story and has a 22 step process on how to build one.

While many will foofoo it away as being formulaic (and it is, no doubt) it has been extremely instrumental to me in showing me how all parts come together and work and has given me tools (and food for thought) to help me develop my story beyond "just sit down and write it" which is actually not good advice for me since it hasn't really worked.

There are elements I roll my eyes at. He develops quite a bit along moral weaknesses, moral needs, immoral actions...and does a lot of development the moral theme for the story, which seems a little forced to me.

Over all, it's been a good road map for me to follow, developing my story that my "just sit and write" method was not doing. Now that I have a better feel for my story structure and where it will go, I can put this formula to the side and "just sit and write" because I'm clearer about how it all works.

/two cents
 

sunandshadow

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Personally I'm all in favor of formulaic, as least as far as the theory goes, because something with a clear structure and list of parts is way easier to understand and apply than anecdotes or transcendentalist vagaries. Once you understand a formula, then you can take it apart and rebuild it different if you want, it's not like you have to slavishly follow it.

I read that 22 Steps Truby book at some point, but I don't have a shelf copy. Truby also has a software called Blockbuster - it's quite expensive and you have to buy add-ons for specific genres.
 

bearilou

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it's not like you have to slavishly follow it.

Yes. Very much so. Especially once you have a feel for how it all works. [nodnodnod]

I bought the book based on a recommendation but only recently dusted it off to give it a whirl. Wish I had done it sooner but I was still all tied up in knots that 'following a formula' was weak and lazy. At least until I figured out that gut and muscling through something and making mistakes that I could have avoided if I had more guidance was costing me in the long run.

Truby also has a software called Blockbuster - it's quite expensive and you have to buy add-ons for specific genres.

I love gadgets, even though most of them I just poke around with and don't use them. Must...resist...purchase...
 

alleycat

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Some of the books published by Writer's Digest are good. One that I think is helpful is Beginnings, Middles & Ends by Nancy Kress. There is also a WD book on plot and structure.

You might also at least look at How to Write a Damn Good Novel: A Step-by-Step No Nonsense Guide to Dramatic Storytelling by James Frey.

Books on writing are a very personal thing. One person will like a particular book and get a lot of help from it, while someone else will hate it. Spending some time at a good bookstore or library might be your best bet.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I don't believe in plotting a novel, so none of the books work for me. But if I had to choose one, it would be Beginnings, Middles & Ends by Nancy Kress.
 

sunandshadow

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The Nancy Kress one is another one I read at some point but don't have a shelf copy off. I remember the book being okay, but I still had trouble having any enthusiasm for it because I actively dislike the plotting in her fiction. I've read several of her novels but after reading them I can't recall most of what happened, which seems like a failure of structural clarity and impact.
 

sunandshadow

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Wish I had done it sooner but I was still all tied up in knots that 'following a formula' was weak and lazy.
Maybe my mindset is different because of the visual arts training I've had; in that case the process for making any particular type of art is very formulaic (you DON'T deviate from the instructions when firing things in a kiln, casting molten metal, working with poisonous chemicals, using power tools, or using expensive materials you can't afford to waste.) No one finds this unusual, it's obvious that the value of the art comes from your choice of subject matter and ability (plus patience) in executing the technique. Although I guess writing is more like painting, there are a lot of equally good techniques to choose from, as well as multiple mediums where you can use any one or some combinations. But still, art seems to have more universally-agreed-on rules of thumb and formulas of technique than fiction writing.


If you end up getting the software, tell me if you think it was worth the price. I didn't think the screenshots of it looked like anything that valuable. I have fun playing with programs like Dramatica Pro and Storybase though.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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I have plot issues too (maybe we should form a 'bad plotters anonymous' group, lol). Have you looked at any books or articles on the 'old fashioned' 4 and 5 act plot structures? I find these much more helpful than the modern 3 act structure for novel-length works. Most how to write books seem to focus on the beginning/middle/end thing, which I find doesn't give enough structure or substance for an 80,000+ word story.
 

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I think most plot issues come from trying to plot. Stop trying to plot, and just tell a story. You'll get plot as an automatic byproduct.
 

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Save The Cat is about screenwriting, but a substantial portion of it is about plot structure. I'm planning on using his formula for the first rewrite of my WIP.
 

sunandshadow

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I have plot issues too (maybe we should form a 'bad plotters anonymous' group, lol). Have you looked at any books or articles on the 'old fashioned' 4 and 5 act plot structures? I find these much more helpful than the modern 3 act structure for novel-length works. Most how to write books seem to focus on the beginning/middle/end thing, which I find doesn't give enough structure or substance for an 80,000+ word story.
I have read about 4 act structure, and do somewhat prefer it to 3 act although I think the two are basically the same, the giant middle of the 3 act is just split into the two middles of the 4-act, with the 'reversal' becoming an act break.

I think forming a bad plotters group would be great - that's the basic reason I suggested a synopsis/outline-specific crit group in the crit group forming thread in the novel forum. No one responded to the idea with interest, but I still would like to try it.
 
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sunandshadow

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I think most plot issues come from trying to plot. Stop trying to plot, and just tell a story. You'll get plot as an automatic byproduct.
As I see it, plotting is just the process of deciding which story to tell. I don't feel that I can tell a story without getting an idea of its overall structure beforehand.
 

Bufty

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Not 'which', but 'what' story to tell, I think.

Take a character, put him in an awkward situation and see what happens.

It's not necessary to initially know any more than where he is and what the awkward situation is.

As I understand it, you want to work out what other characters and problems might arise in the story and how the problem(s) may be resolved before you start writing. James is, I think, only suggesting that it is during that process where problem issues may arise and they no doubt will if one wants to work things out in advance.

Fair enough - but others, myself included, would rather start writing and see what happens as the story unfolds.

As I see it, plotting is just the process of deciding which story to tell. I don't feel that I can tell a story without getting an idea of its overall structure beforehand.
 

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I use Dramatica to map out characters and get an idea of the plot's progress over time. I use it early in the process and the tid-bits of information it generates is highly valuable. The demo version is enough to plug in a few ideas and see where it takes me. Then I fill a PDF sheet (link below) with the results. On the downside the theory and the keywords take some time to understand.

-cb

Link : http://www.dramatica.com/archives/community/resources/DProWorksheets.pdf
 
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sunandshadow

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Fair enough - but others, myself included, would rather start writing and see what happens as the story unfolds.
Pantsing seems to work quite well for some people, I wouldn't discourage anyone from taking that approach, and I have in the past wriitten stories by making them up as I went along. But, this particular thread is about plotting books, so non-plotting approaches aren't on topic.

I actually think 'what' story and 'which' story are both important questions. What is the more general book idea, which comes into play when you have a dilemma like, "Should I make the plot go direction X or Direction Y?" or "Should I introduce character A first or character B first?"
 
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maryland

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I agree in finding problems with the hackneyed hero v villain quest plot -it's Sir Gawain and the Green Man all over again and again and again and....
It's an old book - 2000 , Novel Writing by Evan Marshall, ISBN 0-7136-5292-6 but it goes into interweaving story lines and shaping plot and sub-plots. While being rather over-prescriptive it is something to use - with the addition of some water.
 

Linda Adams

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Seconding on the Marshall Plan for Novel Writing. The outline isn't for me, but it explained how a novel is structured, which helped me better understand how to plot. He has a diagram of where your beginning should end if you have X pages, and where the ending should start. It also helped me figure out where to add subplots, which is something I tend to have a lot of trouble with.
 

sunandshadow

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I remember the Marshall plan book being interesting but something that I couldn't actually apply to the type of thing I write. Probably it either put a lot of weight on developing an antagonist, or it put a lot of weight on having a climactic battle and overall a lot of action in the story. I don't really remember though, it's been2-3 years since I read that one. I'm beginning to think I should run out and pick up shelf copies of all these things so I can discuss them better! lol But if I already know I couldn't apply it to my own work, buying it would be silly.

(Not to nag but, if anyone is interested in forming a group to study/critique plot outlines or synopses, please let me know!)
 

bearilou

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I have plot issues too (maybe we should form a 'bad plotters anonymous' group, lol).

:) Not a bad idea, actually.

Have you looked at any books or articles on the 'old fashioned' 4 and 5 act plot structures? I find these much more helpful than the modern 3 act structure for novel-length works. Most how to write books seem to focus on the beginning/middle/end thing, which I find doesn't give enough structure or substance for an 80,000+ word story.

3 act structure. This was something I was struggling with as well. In fact, I seemed to remember reading someone saying that it does work well for screenplays and scripts but for a book it was a bit too simplistic. A novel would utilized a more varied act plot structure.

...can't remember where I read it though.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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As far as I'm concerned, plot is something academics talk about. Tell the story and plot follows.
Personally, if I don't plot ahead of time I'm quite capable of writing 80,000 words of character issues and world building without any hint of an actual plot. Maybe it's a special talent of mine. :Shrug:
 

sunandshadow

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Personally, if I don't plot ahead of time I'm quite capable of writing 80,000 words of character issues and world building without any hint of an actual plot. Maybe it's a special talent of mine. :Shrug:
Haha I used to do this. At some point I realized, I just dislike most kinds of plot. I hate violence, and some writing theories portray plot as being all about the fighting between a hero and an antagonist, maybe some monsters, and harsh terrain. Then I figured out a few kinds of plot I particularly do like (someone sneaking around in disguise, for example). So I try to make sure each story concept I try to develop has a reason for the main character to be doing one of the few kinds of plot I do like; that makes it easier to more naturally have at least a little plot being generated along with all the introspection and worldbuilding and love angst.
 

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I'm a writer who knows what he wants to write about before he starts. I just need to work out how best to explore it as an author and present it to the reader.

At the scene level I trust my subconscious, but at the story-level most of what it produces is crap, so I don't like to go on 'voyages of discovery' except as exercises to develop my writing craft. I never try and wing manuscript that's more than a half-dozen scenes long.

Having critiqued hundreds of manuscripts and worked with writer-buds through dozens of story ideas I can say with some confidence that a lot of other writers are floundering without clear plot ideas too, so when people tell me that whatever their subconscious produces is golden I tend to scoff a bit. I'll believe it for Harold Pinter, say, but not for most authors. My suggestion: for efficiency's sake, and sanity's, if you can plot, you should.

But that said, I'm in favour of 'pantsing' at the plot level -- going off on frolics at the plot level might cost time, but nothing like the time it takes to write manuscript, and even plotters need to give their subconscious a run. I'm also in favour of writing out critical scenes if you're not sure of the plot. So one doesn't have to be a 'pure' plotter, and equally if you don't like the plot you've written, you don't have to keep it.

I don't have a sure-fire way of producing a good plot, but I've found ways to improve the odds:
  • Start with complex, sympathetic characters of high worth -- extremes of type that the reader will value as much as a close friend, say
  • Give them contradictions of desire or behaviour that challenge who they think they are and who we think we are
  • Give them goals that we can admire and sympathise with
  • Put them in situations where pursuit of those goals becomes a matter as important as life. Do this by escalating the stakes until they can't possibly get worse
  • Write the antagonist's side before the main characters' side
  • Give major supporting characters their own contradictions and extremes
  • Plot the inner journey of the major characters before plotting their outer journey. Mark each major change with a major event causing a dilemma.
  • Once you have the inner journeys mapped, plot again at the scene-level of action/reaction and goal/outcome.
  • Move toward crisis with setbacks of increasing consequence.
  • Add additional dilemmas that force a pick between bad choices whenever a major character faces additional options to change
  • Make events surprising
  • Whatever happens, ensure that a major character takes it personally
  • Structure the plot so that the crisis reveals who the major characters are -- and changes either one side of the conflict or the other
  • Write the ending so that it's clear who the major characters are at the end, and how they've changed.
Oddly enough, I've never found this advice in a single plotting book, but I've found pieces of it in several books, including:
  • How to Grow a Novel, by Sol Stein
  • How to Write a Damn Good novel, by James N. Frey
  • Writing the Breakout Novel, by Donald Maass
  • Top Story/Bottom Story, by William H. Coles (online essay)
There are other approaches, several more formulaic -- such as James N. Frey's The Key, which is based on Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. I've played with Dramatica Pro and various Heroes Journey sorts of software and three- or five-act frames, but for my purposes they're not terribly useful, because I don't need moulds to chuck ideas into; I need ways of growing the ideas I have in surprising ways.

I don't know how well this approach will suit people who don't know what they want to write about. I have a friend though who leans on her subconscious more. She increasingly builds stories out of key scenes, and that's starting to work quite well.
 
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