Gay protagonist in urban fantasy?

The Otter · Oct 16, 2009

This might seem like an odd question, but I'm curious...can anyone think of an urban fantasy (one that is on physical bookstore shelves, not just available through an e-publisher) where the MC is gay, lesbian or bisexual?

I read urban fantasy, but I don't believe I've ever encountered one. Not from a mainstream commercial publisher, anyway.

Alan Yee · Oct 16, 2009

I haven't read many urban fantasy novels yet, but I intend on doing so since my novel and many of my recent stories could be considered urban fantasy. I don't know of very many gay MCs in urban fantasy, though I have read some non-urban fantasies with them. There are probably several out there that I don't know of. My urban fantasy novel has several gay and bisexual characters, so I hope to add the number of UF books with GLBT protagonists.

Oberon89 · Oct 16, 2009

Methinks you should write the first one!

It sounds like an awesome challenge. Your MC can't hate straight folks too much or you might turn off a large section of the market. That's not to say your character can't address some of those issues, run into the prejudice, etc. It's just a fine line to skate between preaching and entertaining—really challenging.

I'd definitely consider buying something like that...as long as there are NO friendly vampires in it.

scarletpeaches · Oct 16, 2009

My second book isn't published - yet! - but the sexuality of the characters never bothered me, not once, because they needed to be bisexual.

I mention the second book 'cause that's the only UF I've written (yet).

If the characters are GLBT, then...so be it. It never occurred to me to worry about what agents and publishers think.

scarletpeaches · Oct 16, 2009

Oberon89 said:
Methinks you should write the first one!

It sounds like an awesome challenge. Your MC can't hate straight folks too much or you might turn off a large section of the market. That's not to say your character can't address some of those issues, run into the prejudice, etc. It's just a fine line to skate between preaching and entertaining—really challenging.

I'd definitely consider buying something like that...as long as there are NO friendly vampires in it.

So? If any of my gay characters hate straight folk, then so be it. Same as straight characters who hate gays.

Personally I've never found it to be a challenge skating that line. I've always assumed that readers are smart enough to realise it's the character talking when bigotry rears its ugly head - not the author.

Kitty Pryde · Oct 16, 2009

http://www.keith-hartman.com/works.php these are SF/urban fantasy/mysteries, which may be slightly out of print from a small indie publisher.

This series has a bi MC: http://www.elizabethbear.com/newamsterdam.html

I'm 99% sure Charles de Lint has lesbian characters in some of his ensemble casts, but maybe not as the main character. That's all I can think of!

ETA: Kitteh's theory of why there are no UF novels with LGBT characters: in UF we have witches/fae/vampires/were-critters to stand in as The Other. They can be easily used as a metaphor for being gay/bi/trans, so the authors don't need to have LGBT characters. (Note that I think this is pretty lousy and implore you all to change it!) Ditto why UF is severely lacking in black/latino/asian/native american characters--the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Mercy Thompson and Detective Inspector Chen. While other sf/f subgenres don't necessarily have nonhuman beings in them, UF must have them and so I think minorities get left out in preference for supernatural beings.

Oberon89 · Oct 16, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
So? If any of my gay characters hate straight folk, then so be it. Same as straight characters who hate gays.

OK, point taken.

Clearly characters exist with their own special bigotries. I was thinking specifically of 1st-person narratives: you don't see very many out-and-out bigots of any stripe as the main character...or at least, I haven't read them yet.

Patricia Briggs' Mercy Thompson is a coyote who likes werewolves AND vampires AND the fae and wishes everyone would just get along. Other characters demonstrate their prejudices but Mercy stays above it all.

Sookie Stackhouse follows the same pattern, etc.

scarletpeaches · Oct 16, 2009

Oops, I probably came over as I HAS A ANGRIEZ. Sorry.

I'll get back to my book now. I'm a bit hyper 'cause I'm pages away from finishing it.

*goes away quietly*

lauraannwilliams · Oct 16, 2009

Laurell K Hamilton's books have a lot of bisexual characters ( they're also a tad explicit in places ), but I don't really consider them very representative.

Patricia Briggs has a couple of gay secondary characters in her Mercedes series.

Tony in Tanya Huff's Smoke and Shadow's series might be, I can't remember off hand.

Jes Battis doesn't have anyone explicitly homosexual in his OSI series, but I wouldn't be surprised if that changes - he researches Queers in pop culture and literature ( http://www.authorjesbattis.com ), and might be a good resource to find other examples.

The Otter · Oct 16, 2009

Thanks for the links, Kitty.

I do have an urban fantasy WIP where the main character is gay, and there's a love story which is a fairly significant part of the plot (though I don't know if I'd classify it as a romance). But the scarcity of GLBT MCs in this genre makes me think the big publishers tend to reject such books. Maybe they believe there's not a big enough audience for them, or something. Not that this would stop me from writing the book, but it is kind of disheartening to think that it might make the story much harder to publish. Or maybe I'm completely wrong about the big publishers?

Oberon89 · Oct 16, 2009

The Otter said:
Maybe they believe there's not a big enough audience for them, or something.

Gentle Otter,

This might be an apples and oranges type thing, but offered in the spirit o' being helpful: I had a plot element in my book that dealt with abortion. My agent recommended that I remove it, because many UF editors happen to be female and they may object to it for whatever reason. So ok, I did it, & the book sold quickly.

Now, I can't possibly know if it would have sold the same way with the abortion element left in there—the editors never saw it that way—the point is, agents do sometimes make suggestions based on what they think editors will or will not like (and keep in mind that they know many of the editors personally).

There's also the marketing guys who do their number crunching for the publisher, looking at comparable books. How many best-selling UF novels are there with gay protagonists? Not many. They won't be able to do a tidy market analysis. That kind of book is going to be a risk no matter what. STILL, if your book is just brilliant, someone will take that risk, and clearly it's a niche that no one's filled properly yet. It's a great opportunity. I wish you the best with it!

ChaosTitan · Oct 16, 2009

Following a bit on Oberon89's post, books that go against the commonly accepted tropes of a given genre are hard to sell to the big houses. They just are.

It's one thing to say "I'm writing this for myself, so I don't give a rip what others think of my gay MC." It's another to say "I want to publish this with HarperCollins, but I don't give a rip what others think of my gay MC." Because the bean counters at HC are going to care. They're going to consider this.

Would a gay MC turn off some UF readers? Sure. All of us? No. I'd love to see a gay MC in UF. I think it would a nice change of pace. Do I think it would be an easy sell? No. I think whatever editor bought it would have to convince a lot of people it would sell, in order to get his/her bosses to take the chance.

Going against the accepted norm scares the people with the money. I was chatting recently with another debut author whose UF heroine is (*gasp*) a single mother raising an eleven-year old. Someone at her house (not her editor) said a single mother protag wouldn't sell in UF. To which I beg to differ, because 1) it will draw in the people who want something different, and 2) I've read it and it's an amazing book.

There's a large market for gay MC's in the niche and e-presses, and sooner or later (as it did with erotica), it will spill over into the larger print market. And the readers will be waiting.

BigWords · Oct 16, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
Would a gay MC turn off some UF readers? Sure. All of us? No. I'd love to see a gay MC in UF. I think it would a nice change of pace.

My automatic thought was one of degrees - just how gay would a character have to be to alienate the regular readers (5+ books a month types) who devour the genre? Would it be a same-sex peck on the cheek that turns them off? A hardcore sex scene?

I can't shake the idea Liberace Vs. The Werewolves from my brain now... Thanks.

maxmordon · Oct 16, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
ETA: Kitteh's theory of why there are no UF novels with LGBT characters: in UF we have witches/fae/vampires/were-critters to stand in as The Other. They can be easily used as a metaphor for being gay/bi/trans, so the authors don't need to have LGBT characters. (Note that I think this is pretty lousy and implore you all to change it!) Ditto why UF is severely lacking in black/latino/asian/native american characters--the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Mercy Thompson and Detective Inspector Chen. While other sf/f subgenres don't necessarily have nonhuman beings in them, UF must have them and so I think minorities get left out in preference for supernatural beings.

This is called in TVtropes "Have you tried not to be a monster?" and presents examples from the X-Men movies (Have you tried not to be a mutant?) to True Blood (Coming out of the coffin) and even the Ugly Duckling.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaveYouTriedNotBeingAMonster

Kitty Pryde · Oct 16, 2009

maxmordon said:
This is called in TVtropes "Have you tried not to be a monster?" and presents examples from the X-Men movies (Have you tried not to be a mutant?) to True Blood (Coming out of the coffin) and even the Ugly Duckling.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaveYouTriedNotBeingAMonster

Yes, and Fantastic Racism, when it's about fantasy beings standing in for racial minorities. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasticRacism

PS I would love for the ugly duckling to be about gays, but I feel like that's not what it was originally intended to be.

ChaosTitan · Oct 16, 2009

BigWords said:
My automatic thought was one of degrees - just how gay would a character have to be to alienate the regular readers (5+ books a month types) who devour the genre? Would it be a same-sex peck on the cheek that turns them off? A hardcore sex scene?

Hardcore sex scenes turn people off books all the time, whether straight or gay.

But I do understand the point you're making, and it's a good question. A question without a clear answer, honestly. At least, not one I can see.

maxmordon · Oct 16, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
PS I would love for the ugly duckling to be about gays, but I feel like that's not what it was originally intended to be.

Neither do I, but a lot has been speculated about The Happy Prince, you know, that fairy tale by Oscar Wilde about two individuals (a bird and a statue) that slowly fall in love but can't be together in life because of the restrictions around, so they are reunited on the afterlife (or perhaps I am looking too much into it)

Capital · Oct 16, 2009

This has bisexual protagonist.
Apparently has many fans.

And to add to discussion, I think ChaosTitan nailed it. They want each book to reach as many readers as possible, and in the case of F/SF you probably aren't getting away by saying it's "niche".

MGraybosch · Oct 16, 2009

Capital said:
This has bisexual protagonist.
Apparently has many fans.

She's also a masochist and a very high-class prostitute. However, I'd say that the Kushiel novels are more historical fantasy than urban fantasy.

MGraybosch · Oct 16, 2009

The Otter said:
This might seem like an odd question, but I'm curious...can anyone think of an urban fantasy (one that is on physical bookstore shelves, not just available through an e-publisher) where the MC is gay, lesbian or bisexual?

I'm still waiting for Laurell K Hamilton to decide that Anita Blake is bi-curious after all. I mean, she's had her character do everything else.

rugcat · Oct 16, 2009

lauraannwilliams said:
Jes Battis doesn't have anyone explicitly homosexual in his OSI series, but I wouldn't be surprised if that changes - he researches Queers in pop culture and literature ( http://www.authorjesbattis.com ), and might be a good resource to find other examples.

Jes is openly gay, as are several other UF authors who write straight protags. Being gay doesn't necessarily mean you have to, or even want to write a gay protag, but I do know that editors are leery of it.

Minor characters are fine -- even important characters. But the MC being gay makes them nervous. I seem to remember Tanya Huff had a uf like that, though

Interestingly, gay protags in traditional or more literary fantasy seem to be acceptable.

Here's one list:

Kitty Pryde · Oct 16, 2009

Capital said:
This has bisexual protagonist.
Apparently has many fans.

And to add to discussion, I think ChaosTitan nailed it. They want each book to reach as many readers as possible, and in the case of F/SF you probably aren't getting away by saying it's "niche".

There's a decent pile of regular fantasy and SF novels with gay MCs, but specifically UF doesn't have many. I agree that the Kushiel series isn't really urban fantasy.

Re: how gay can the character be: The thing is, some books are about gay characters. And some books are about characters who happen to be gay. For example, the Herald Mage series is about gay characters (fantasy series). Whereas the Farthing series is about a character who happens to be gay (alternate history series). The character who happens to be gay might be an easier sell, I think, because it's more focused on a story and less focused on Teaching An Important Lesson.

The Otter · Oct 16, 2009

Thanks for the list, rugcat.

My WIP is still in a very early stage, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's really an "urban fantasy" at all. I mean, it's a fantasy and much of it takes place in a modern urban setting (Chicago), but does that alone make it UF? Maybe I'd have better luck if I marketed it as contemporary or literary fantasy? Or maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here.

Kitty: I guess my fantasy would fall into the "characters who happen to be gay" category. The main character's gayness is much less important to the story than the fact that he's a telepath. Really, that issue doesn't affect the plot much at all.

sunandshadow · Oct 17, 2009

I've seen urban fantasy erotica with gay MCs, does that count? True it's a lot more common in ebook form because glbt and erotica both get better distribution in ebook form, but I have seen some printed ones.

RSD · Oct 17, 2009

My WIP is still in a very early stage, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's really an "urban fantasy" at all. I mean, it's a fantasy and much of it takes place in a modern urban setting (Chicago), but does that alone make it UF? Maybe I'd have better luck if I marketed it as contemporary or literary fantasy? Or maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here.

WRITE IT!! Then try to classify it.

Gay protagonist in urban fantasy?

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