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Naked Scenes

Thread starter Ctairo
Start date May 12, 2009

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Ctairo

Why Isn't IGNORE Available in RL?

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May 12, 2009

#1

No. Nothing to do with bodies. :tongue

:tongue

I posted a partial chapter/chronological scenes in Science Fiction/Fantasy SYW. I know the writing's spare (verified by a couple of critters), but I'm not sure how to routinize looking at the skeletal and figuring where more meat's necessary. Is there a way to determine when scenes don't flow easily for readers and/or what information would be useful? I could certainly expand the family give-and-take, but I'm concerned about too much extraneous banter.

NicoleMD

Onomatopotamus

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May 12, 2009

#2

You could give yourself a word count goal for each scene. Maybe aim for a 15% word increase to start with, and don't stop adding until you get there. (You can always cut stuff out if it doesn't fit.) Make sure you have described ample setting, given characters proper motivation, internal thoughts, added enough tension, etc. Usually I go through and put [feelings] tags on a read-through wherever the pace needs slowing down.

You might also ask if each scene leaves you feeling satisfied after you read it, and if not, ask yourself what feels like it's missing?

Nicole

Ctairo

Why Isn't IGNORE Available in RL?

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May 12, 2009

#3

NicoleMD said:
You could give yourself a word count goal for each scene. Maybe aim for a 15% word increase to start with, and don't stop adding until you get there. (You can always cut stuff out if it doesn't fit.) Make sure you have described ample setting, given characters proper motivation, internal thoughts, added enough tension, etc. Usually I go through and put [feelings] tags on a read-through wherever the pace needs slowing down.

You might also ask if each scene leaves you feeling satisfied after you read it, and if not, ask yourself what feels like it's missing?

Nicole

I like the word count goal. The suggestion to increase scenes by percentage sounds like a sensible, concrete method of working through the problem. I like concrete.

Thanks, Nicole!

Charlie Horse

Speaking in metaphors

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May 12, 2009

#4

Ctairo said:
No. Nothing to do with bodies.

Well, where's the fun in that?

Ctairo

Why Isn't IGNORE Available in RL?

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May 12, 2009

#5

Charlie Horse said:
Well, where's the fun in that?

LOL!

Next time?

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

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May 12, 2009

#6

Get some betas. They should be able to tell you if some scenes need to be fleshed out.

Fillanzea

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May 12, 2009

#7

When I started writing, my scenes were very skeletal, consisting mostly of dialogue. As I progressed as a writer, I made sure that I included sensory details -- it's been suggested to me to have sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste on every page. That might be a little much, but it's a starting point. I also made sure that I gave my characters something to do BESIDES talk to each other in most scenes. They don't just sit in the parlor having a conversation, they talk while they're doing laundry, they talk while they're working in the factory, they talk while they're building sets for the play.

The ideal, I think, is to really immerse yourself in your point of view character's experience -- what they're thinking, and feeling, and seeing, and hearing, at any given moment.

jodiodi

Reflections of Reality

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May 12, 2009

#8

Fillanzea has a good point.

What's going on around your characters at any given moment? Let the reader know if it's a hot and muggy day by showing how a character's clothes stick to his or her back because of the sweat; if there are mosquitoes buzzing around; can he/she smell honeysuckle; what does the strawberry coloda taste like; is the horizon hazy from the heat? Make the reader feel like the scene is real.

fawnmarie

Registered

May 12, 2009

#9

I absolutely ADORE spare writing; although I understand that's not the usual.

Dale Emery

is way off topic

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May 12, 2009

#10

Ctairo said:
I posted a partial chapter/chronological scenes in Science Fiction/Fantasy SYW. I know the writing's spare (verified by a couple of critters), but I'm not sure how to routinize looking at the skeletal and figuring where more meat's necessary. Is there a way to determine when scenes don't flow easily for readers and/or what information would be useful?

Is there a POV character? If so, what does the POV character notice? What does the character actively pay attention to?

What does the character think and feel in response to noticing those things?

How do external events relate to the character's goals and motivations, and what does the character think and feel about that?

What memories do the events in the scene stir in the character?

What does the character think and feel about himself or herself as events unfold?

What plans does the character make (whether long-term or very, very short-term)?

What actions, gestures, expressions do people do during the scene?

Elizabeth George, in her marvelous book Write Away, suggests giving the characters a Talking-Head Avoidance Device (THAD): something for them to do during the scene that keeps them from being just talking heads (and possibly acts as a metaphor, and possibly furthers the story). It can be something simple like stacking wood, doing laundry, shaving an angry bear (okay, that may be redundant: shaving a bear is almost guaranteed to anger it), dressing for an evening out, washing a car... In the book she gives a nice list of possibilities. Oddly, her list does not include shaving an angry bear. But my list does.

Dale

Danthia

May 12, 2009

#11

I write sparse to start, then flesh it out after.

First round: I like to get in the plot and action scenes so I know what everyone is doing and where they are.

Second round: I add description and setting so it's clear what environment they're in.

Third round: Dialog tags and internalization, so it's clear who's talking and how people feel about what's going on.

Fourth round: Motivations and goals. I make sure it's clear what my protag is after and why.

Fifth round: Plot points, foreshadowing and background. Is there anything that needs to be inserted to set something up for later?

Final round: Polish. I look for awkward phrasing and fix what doesn't work.

By that time things are usually well rounded.

gonovelgo

Super Member

Registered

May 12, 2009

#12

My initial writing tends to be as well-rounded as I can make it. Often I'll go back to add some description, particularly of locations and people, but I can't write 'skeleton' scenes. If I try, they nag at me until I go back to flesh them out. (But then again, I write in a completely linear fashion. If you're someone who can write more flexibly, more power to you.)

ccv707

He who asks, "Why?"

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May 12, 2009

#13

Ctairo said:
I'm concerned about too much extraneous banter.

A scene should increase the understanding of a character, push the plot forward, or both, and when the scene ceases to do this, end it. And any and all details that don't serve to add to the characters, plot, tone, etc. don't need to be there. Reread a scene, look for things that don't seem to fit or what you think could be cut, then cut it. Read it over with the segment removed, and if the scene maintains the same meaning, leave that subtracted segment out.

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

Super Member

Registered

May 13, 2009

#14

Personally, I don't like breaks in the chapter. I will break scenes into multiple chapters but not break chapters into multiple scenes. This means that some chapters are super short. To keep things from being too erratic I aim for a minimum word count and an average word count. Of course, I still wind up with a few chapters that are only 350 words and some that are 5000 words, but (in this particular novel) I think that's what works best.

I am not such a sparse writer, but I still have to figure out what needs to be included. When it comes to dialogue even passages of "banter" can say a lot about a character. Quite frankly, good dialogue should rarely get right to the point. Most people just don't come right out and say what they want/are feeling. Think about how a character would go about telling someone else they had seen a ghost. Even if they blurt out "I saw a ghost." there is likely to be backtracking. ("Just kidding." Or "Maybe it was just a bad slice of pizza.")

Adding sensory details is never a bad idea either. Most of the time I deliberately overwrite because it is usually easier to take stuff out than add it in later.

I also act certain things out. How does doing _____ actually feel? If I'm upset how do I sit on the couch? I notice more real details that way. Not just the things I think I would notice, but the actual physical details of sitting balled up on an old couch. Obviously not everything can be explored as thoroughly but I usually can get familiar enough with a character in small things to understand the bigger things.

Beta readers can help you pinpoint sections that aren't long enough. You might also try seeing how long it takes to read a particular section. Too many short sections can feel jumpy. If the scene is changing every thirty seconds or every minute that may be a sign you need to connect or expand sections.

I'm not sure if any of this will help you out. Learning how to write enough is just as hard as learning how not to write too much and only comes with practice.

ccv707

He who asks, "Why?"

Super Member

Registered

May 13, 2009

#15

Aggy B. said:
To keep things from being too erratic I aim for a minimum word count and an average word count.

You're limiting yourself to a set of rules in this way. Sentences can be just as long or as short as they need to be, just as scenes can be, just as chapters, just as whole manuscripts. If a scene only needs a single paragraph to get its point across, then it should be allowed to do so.

Ctairo

Why Isn't IGNORE Available in RL?

Super Member

Registered

May 13, 2009

#16

maestrowork said:
Get some betas. They should be able to tell you if some scenes need to be fleshed out.

Good idea, Maestrowork.

Thank you!

Fillanzea said:
When I started writing, my scenes were very skeletal, consisting mostly of dialogue. As I progressed as a writer, I made sure that I included sensory details -- it's been suggested to me to have sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste on every page. That might be a little much, but it's a starting point. I also made sure that I gave my characters something to do BESIDES talk to each other in most scenes. They don't just sit in the parlor having a conversation, they talk while they're doing laundry, they talk while they're working in the factory, they talk while they're building sets for the play.

The ideal, I think, is to really immerse yourself in your point of view character's experience -- what they're thinking, and feeling, and seeing, and hearing, at any given moment.

jodiodi said:
Fillanzea has a good point.

What's going on around your characters at any given moment? Let the reader know if it's a hot and muggy day by showing how a character's clothes stick to his or her back because of the sweat; if there are mosquitoes buzzing around; can he/she smell honeysuckle; what does the strawberry coloda taste like; is the horizon hazy from the heat? Make the reader feel like the scene is real.

In looking at the scenes in question, the fear of getting stuck in the character's head made me pull back. Waaay back. Which made me completely omit the sensory details. Thanks for reminding me, Jodiodi and Fillanzea.

fawnmarie said:
I absolutely ADORE spare writing; although I understand that's not the usual.

*clings*

It's just you and me, fawnmarie, it's just you and me.

Dale Emery said:
Is there a POV character? If so, what does the POV character notice? What does the character actively pay attention to?

What does the character think and feel in response to noticing those things?

How do external events relate to the character's goals and motivations, and what does the character think and feel about that?

What memories do the events in the scene stir in the character?

What does the character think and feel about himself or herself as events unfold?

What plans does the character make (whether long-term or very, very short-term)?

What actions, gestures, expressions do people do during the scene?

Elizabeth George, in her marvelous book Write Away, suggests giving the characters a Talking-Head Avoidance Device (THAD): something for them to do during the scene that keeps them from being just talking heads (and possibly acts as a metaphor, and possibly furthers the story). It can be something simple like stacking wood, doing laundry, shaving an angry bear (okay, that may be redundant: shaving a bear is almost guaranteed to anger it), dressing for an evening out, washing a car... In the book she gives a nice list of possibilities. Oddly, her list does not include shaving an angry bear. But my list does.

Dale

Don't know how she missed saving an angry bear. I'm glad you included it because oh, the possibilities!

Great list, Dale. I need to post it--and rotate the items because not every scene needs every item. Adding the book ye ol' shopping cart. Thanks so much for weighing in!

Danthia said:
I write sparse to start, then flesh it out after.

First round: I like to get in the plot and action scenes so I know what everyone is doing and where they are.

Second round: I add description and setting so it's clear what environment they're in.

Third round: Dialog tags and internalization, so it's clear who's talking and how people feel about what's going on.

Fourth round: Motivations and goals. I make sure it's clear what my protag is after and why.

Fifth round: Plot points, foreshadowing and background. Is there anything that needs to be inserted to set something up for later?

Final round: Polish. I look for awkward phrasing and fix what doesn't work.

By that time things are usually well rounded.

Danthia, yes! I like it! Just... Wow! Thanks so much!

gonovelgo said:
My initial writing tends to be as well-rounded as I can make it. Often I'll go back to add some description, particularly of locations and people, but I can't write 'skeleton' scenes. If I try, they nag at me until I go back to flesh them out. (But then again, I write in a completely linear fashion. If you're someone who can write more flexibly, more power to you.)

You, my friend, are blessed beyond measure. But you know that right?

ccv707 said:
A scene should increase the understanding of a character, push the plot forward, or both, and when the scene ceases to do this, end it. And any and all details that don't serve to add to the characters, plot, tone, etc. don't need to be there. Reread a scene, look for things that don't seem to fit or what you think could be cut, then cut it. Read it over with the segment removed, and if the scene maintains the same meaning, leave that subtracted segment out.

I've got to add before I can cut. If that makes sense. I've literally written the bare minimum. Apparently, some of the text hasn't even hit that threshold, so I'm adding. I'm good at moving the plot; it's the details that get lost. And dialogue? For me, it's maddeningly easy to have characters yapping like long-lost friends.

Aggy B. said:
Personally, I don't like breaks in the chapter. I will break scenes into multiple chapters but not break chapters into multiple scenes. This means that some chapters are super short. To keep things from being too erratic I aim for a minimum word count and an average word count. Of course, I still wind up with a few chapters that are only 350 words and some that are 5000 words, but (in this particular novel) I think that's what works best.

Interesting! I think I may be leaning toward making sure scenes or chapters make a minimum word count.

Aggy B. said:
I am not such a sparse writer, but I still have to figure out what needs to be included. When it comes to dialogue even passages of "banter" can say a lot about a character. Quite frankly, good dialogue should rarely get right to the point. Most people just don't come right out and say what they want/are feeling. Think about how a character would go about telling someone else they had seen a ghost. Even if they blurt out "I saw a ghost." there is likely to be backtracking. ("Just kidding." Or "Maybe it was just a bad slice of pizza.")

Actually, for readers (and writing for readers is the point of writing), this makes a lot of sense. I need to re-learn patience when it comes to giving characters room to maneuver. Well, that and the art of not letting them wander too far off course.

Aggy B. said:
I also act certain things out. How does doing _____ actually feel? If I'm upset how do I sit on the couch? I notice more real details that way. Not just the things I think I would notice, but the actual physical details of sitting balled up on an old couch. Obviously not everything can be explored as thoroughly but I usually can get familiar enough with a character in small things to understand the bigger things.

*nods*

I'd completely forgotten about acting things out!

I'm not sure if any of this will help you out. Learning how to write enough is just as hard as learning how not to write too much and only comes with practice.

Oh, it will. I need to keep at it is all. Thanks, Aggie!

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

Super Member

Registered

May 13, 2009

#17

ccv707 said:
You're limiting yourself to a set of rules in this way. Sentences can be just as long or as short as they need to be, just as scenes can be, just as chapters, just as whole manuscripts. If a scene only needs a single paragraph to get its point across, then it should be allowed to do so.

Yes. And I also said that I still have chapters that are as short as 350 words and some that push 5000. The minimum/average for me is just a guideline and a starting point. I did not say that it was a rule. Or that I always kept my chapters to a precise length.

Personally, I find that setting quantifiable goals gives me more room to write creatively. It keeps the analytical side of my brain busy counting words while the other side tells a good story. I also outline like a fiend before I write the rough draft. (And sometimes outline again before I start the second.) Neither of these things (chapter length goals or outlines) work for every writer. But they work for me, therefore they might work for someone else too.

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