So, do I pack it in?

On the one hand, I say slog through it and fix it on the edit/rewrite. On the other, I scrapped the early stages of my WIP because I knew that it was too full of basic errors to fix.

Perhaps start over JUST THIS ONCE with your current stuff as a rough guide. That's what I did. You only get one start-over pass, though, and then you have to slog through it.

I personally don't outline. Lots of writers do, lots of writers don't. If your book is especially complex, you may need to outline just to keep track of things and to plan ahead. Perhaps you can build an outline from what you've already written and modify your manuscript to fit it. From there you should be able to figure out what's not working with it.

Another thing that might help could be to step away from it (while you work on an outline) and give some thought to what you want to happen in it. Meanwhile, get a few books on novel writing (structuring, planning, characterization, etc) and read the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread. In it, he recommends a book about chess (whose title I don't recall right off) that can help you plot your story.

As for a testimonial, for my novel (under revision) I had the story in my head when I began writing and the story just kind of told itself and took off in directions I never planned. However, it's a pretty straightforward tale that goes through several months, so it's not as complex as what you've described.

Keep at it, though. When you're finished, you'll be proud of it.

allen

I'm all for setting it aside for a bit and coming back to it with a fresh eye.

I was horribly disgusted with my MS about 2/3 way through and was certain I'd written the dullest characters EVER. I set it aside for a little over a month, came back and thought--hey, this isn't half bad.

Try giving yourself a little break from the work and see what happens.

As far as outline or no outline goes--I'm a no outline kind of person. I've tried using one, but found it just didn't work for me. But I think it's a matter of personal taste--like using a computer or writing long hand--there's no right or wrong way, whichever works better for you is the one to go with.

I hope this helps. Hang in there.

Do what you feel needs to be done. When I get criticism and it's on target, I get that guilty feeling.
Pack it in? No way! I want more good books to read!

Although I finished a novel at last after many years, I ultimately scrapped it. Why? For one, it was too long -- 230,000 words. For another, it had a LOT of continuity problems. I spent years -- literally -- of trying to fix it. And although I had lots of cool scenes where the characters got into tight situations and had to fight their way out, I had no real reasons for these scenes. I just liked them. I had way to many "central" characters because I was in love with them. I gave way too much backstory, even though it wasn't relevant. The plot meandered. The villian was ho-hum, with no real reason for her malevolence.

Finally, I decided that twelve years was enough. It was painful, but I set -- no, I shoved -- that damned book aside.

Then, eighteen months ago, I started another novel. I had an outline before I started, although I ultimately ended up scrapping the ending of that outline and brainstorming a new one. (My original ending was not compelling enough.) I averaged about 2000 words a week on it. That's all I had time for, but it's amazing how you can finish a novel at that glacial pace if you keep working steadily. NaNoWriMo is just not possible for me!

I finished the first draft in 11 months. After revising for six months, I started pitching agents. I got my first request for a full submission just over a week ago.

So, if you have sincere doubts about your work, you might want to just set it aside and work on a more promising idea. Don't destroy the manuscript or do anything drastic. Take another look at it in a month. That way, you can be more objective. If you still think it has serious problems, then continue to work on your more promising idea. With a little time, you just might finish another novel.

Judg said:

I am thinking I should stop altogether, do a more complete job of world-building, get a better grip on who the secondary characters are and what they want, and set up a step-by-step plot outline. And then start all over again. I'm beginning to think I must be one of those writers who works better with an outline. I did have a timeline but it just doesn't seem to be enough.

Has anybody been through this?

Testimonials appreciated. How do you tell if a story can be repaired, or if it needs to be torn down and built again from the foundation?

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I just did a very detailed outline for my fantasy trilogy, after I was 90,000 words into writing it. I was seeing so many plot problems as I looked at what I had done that I was concerned the entire story line had fundamental problems. I stopped writing the MS for four days and did a super detailed 36,000 word outline. By the time I was done, I was convinced that the story was amazing and couldn't believe I had ever doubted it.

By seeing the entire story laid out in front of me, I was able to easily identify what the problems were and come up with easy solutions. I dropped two subplots and one secondary character and added three new subplots. I changed a few plot points, such as how a character dies, even though it still happens in the same time and place.

All told, I ended up with two chapters I had to entirely rewrite (about 12,000 words) and one chapter I just scrapped altogether because it related to a subplot I dropped.

Now, no matter what part of the books I decide to work on, I can just sit down and write without having to worry about whether I have the details right or not.

I would say you should stop working on the MS and do a very detailed outline. Compare what you have written to that outline and it should tell you if you actually have to start over or just need to do a rewrite or change a few things here and there.

Try the outline. I loathe them, but from time to time I do sit down and try to figure out how to get from point A to point D. You mentioned that you're learning a lot and that's great. All that backstory you wrote, maybe you needed it so that you understood your characters better. Having that backstory informs your writing, even if it's never explicitly relayed in the text. Cut it out and save it in a separate file. Bits and pieces may come in handy as you continue to write it.

If you do choose to continue to write it, try to maintain your focus and sharpen the areas that need it. I wrote a short story that morphed into what I'm now calling The Epic. It's not really epic length, but as I wrote it there were unexpected layers and complexity that introduced themselves that had to be woven back in from the start. I'm trying to finish the rewrite of it now (six years later), and still more things have developed like that, though thankfully far, far fewer.

If you feel the story is worth pursuing, if the characters are beckoning to be heard, and if you're learning from the process, don't give up. Keep learning.

I would suggest finishing it. You can learn more from one The End than a thousand perfect beginnings. You can go back and fix some of the bigger problems now, or you can keep heading forward until you get it done. The second is my suggestion.

I'm not a big fan of "packing it in". Finish it, or you'll always be wondering what it could have been. No matter what it will be experience.

Just, whatever you do, don't pack it in. The first one is important. It doesn't matter if it's a publishable novel...what matters is the huge amount of learning you derive from it. And the huge refinement of writing style you derive from it. If you are noticing things in your work that could do with improvement...that's a good sign. It means you are learning along the way.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" - JQT... My hero.

Just my opinion but:

When I'm in such a situation, I just write the story as it is 'told' to me by the characters until the end, then go back and look at how it all fits together. I tend to edit the story while writing but that's just me. Once that's done, I'll look over the whole thing for the little mechanical things after taking a break. When I write the story's already finished; I just don't know all the specifics yet. My characters tell me what happens to them (not in any particular order, either). As I learn more and more about the characters and their adventures, the story pieces sort of fall into place and I can see what was important and what wasn't and what may not even belong in that particular story.

I'm rambling. I'll shut up now.

Whatever you do, don't just quit. You learn by doing.

My $.02 is to step back and explore your options via an outline or whatever means you choose. Set yourself a finite amount of time to look more critically at your book. Then begin writing again and finish the project. If you finish it. Then start a new book. When I am befuddled with a novel, it helps me to set it aside and do something like a short story or picture book, or just anything different. I'm still writing, but just not on the WIP that's tormenting me. But always set a deadline or it can turn into the Great Procrastination.

I'm not too concerned about my ability to write a scene. It's the plot structure, ensuring that there's sufficient tension to keep pulling the reader forward, that kind of thing. It's a little hard for me to judge.

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You're right! It is hard for you to judge. You've been immersed in this work for awhile. You have a lot invested and you can't be properly objective. There are times I read my work and think it's the most awful thing I've ever read. There are better times when I recognize it's damn good. So once you finish, take a break from it for a few weeks, then go back and do a strong edit.

"Never give up! Never surrender!" - JQT... My hero.

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And my motto!

Finish the novel.

Isaac Asimov once said that nothing is more educational than writing a story only to see it falling apart in your hands. (Presumably, the more it falls apart, the more you learn…)

Stephen J. Cannel once said that the most important thing for any new writer is simply to finish what they’re writing, even if it’s utter dogpoop.

Lesson: Keep writing until you reach THE END. Taking numerous missteps may make the path longer and more aggravating, but at least you’ll have learned from the journey how best to reach the destination next time you go…

Finish the whole thing. Period.

During my WIP, I realised that I had gotten my POVs all mixed up. It meant eliminating two main characters, changing the plot, introducing two new main characters and deleting 30,000 words of prose from 45,000 words. I also changed three subplots and lets not even get into sub characters.

My problem was that I loved the narrator and I just wanted him to be able the story with the new situation. So I went ahead and rewrote/edited everything. I finisghed my initial MS at 66000 words. I am now doing my first edit and am having bouts of love and hate for my WIP. But at least I know I have a complete story. I know where the plot and the writing is weak; and which characters need fleshing out.
I am also looking at scenec and chapters that need to be eliminated or relocated. Which dialogs are superflous. etc etc.
In a nutshell, whatever happens with this book, I have learnt so much from writing it that the next one shall be a different exercise. [ I hope.]

Never pack it in.

I finished my novel. I had a skilled reader go at it, and as a result I got some seriously good editorial comments -- some of which required a rewrite, basically from the ground up, to execute.

I agreed with the reader, so that's what I did: I ripped it up from the foundations and rebuilt it over an intense, focused period. The destruction and rebirth helped forge it into what I think is a far stronger work, but I wouldn't have had the context to rebuild it properly without having finished it first.

Add my vote to the 'finish it' pile.

For my first ms I didn't have an outline, hell, I din't even know how it was going to end until I was half way through. I had a beginning and I went with it, expecting a short story to appear, instead a novel emerged (I reafered to as my monster). It took over a year to write because I would get so frustrated with the pure suckiness of it that I would put it away for months on end. But I always went back, and each time that I did, I had new insight and more knowledge. The writing improved so much that it didn't sound as if the same person had writen the whole thing. But I finished it, and I suggest you do the same.

Your first is all about the journey, not the destination.

I think being bloody-minded enough to get through to the end even if you know what you're writing is not publishable and will never be publishable is a really valuable experience.

I'm saying that from the perspective of someone in the throes of a first novel. If I abandon what I'm working on, then I don't learn the skill of completing something, of being in it for the long haul and getting past those awful moments when I cringe in dismay and shame at what I've written and wonder what in god's name I was thinking when I decided to try my hand at writing anything, let alone a full-length novel. My gut feeling is that plowing through will get me past that hard-drive full of half-finished and stillborn stories and into a headspace where I know how to get to the end.

Been there, done that. I read somewhere that when you feel like you're ready to junk it, you should press on. It may not be publishable, but if you quit halfway through you're giving yourself permission not to finish. Personally, I finished my book, sent it to first readers and then shelved it based on their input.
However, I had a well-developed backstory (unused) for one character that everyone liked. I peeled out the chapters relating to her and made it a stand alone story. I'm querying agents on it now.

Judg

I assume this is a first draft you are working on? A favourite expression of my writing group is: Fix it in the re-write.

The fact that you feel you can identify what's wrong is a positive step. The only writers I have met who truly have no hope are those who think they are so brilliant everyone else in the world misunderstands their genius....

On the other hand, you are probably too close to this novel to have a truly unbiased opinion. Everybody goes through a stage of feeling that their novel is no good and they ought to give up. Even novelists with several published works to their name seem to admit to going through this with every new work. Fortunately the feeling passes.

An outline might help. It helped me with my current novel. I began it knowing where I wanted to go but not really knowing how I was getting there. When I got to the point when the manuscript was a horrible mess, and I was getting quite depressed about it, I worked out an outline (after some discussion with my very patient husband, who is always willing to help brainstorm ideas) and the outline helped me get to the end of the first draft. There was still a lot of work to be done after that, of course, but at least I had a basic framework.

Spend some time working on your outline if you feel it will help. Then get to the end of the first draft. After that, you probably need to step away from the manuscript for a while, to get a fresh perspective on what needs to be fixed, and then you'll be ready to tackle Draft 2.

But do keep with it.

Shara