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Copy/pasting from saved thread. Did a quick edit to remove junk.
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Old Yesterday, 06:27 AM #1
Jerm
If a script is submitted to be copyrighted, but then later changed does it have to be submitted again for copyright?
Say I go back and change a word or a line of text does that constitute a resubmit for copyright?
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Old Yesterday, 06:38 AM #2
Perks
I'm thinking this will get more accurate attention in the screenwriting forum, so I'm going to zap it over there.
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM #3
clock_work9
Not sure about copyrite but upon registering, the wga suggest;
CHANGES TO MATERIAL
You may change your work as much as you prefer; however, when the storyline has been affected or changed extensively, it becomes new material and should be registered or documented again in some manner.
It is solely at your discretion to submit multiple drafts or completed drafts of the same work for registration. The Registry does not make comparisons of drafts or material content.
All submissions, including subsequent drafts of existing registrations, are considered completely separate registrations and should be submitted accordingly with the required fees.
Don't know if that helps but seems to make sense.
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM #4
Maryn
A fresh copyright registration is worth the expense only if you've made significant changes, IMO. Be aware that your work is copyrighted the moment it's saved to a fixed medium, from your hard drive to a printout to a cocktail napkin. Registering the copyright is what costs, because it affords you additional protections--if and only if your copyright is violated.
You can minimize the odds of that, of course, by thoroughly checking out agents and prodcos before you query. The legitimate ones are not going to steal your work. Consider copyright registration timing, too--no point in paying for it if your query doesn't elicit any requests for the script, so nobody sees it.
Maryn, hoping that's helpful
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"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM #5
BottomlessCup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm
If a script is submitted to be copyrighted, but then later changed does it have to be submitted again for copyright?
Say I go back and change a word or a line of text does that constitute a resubmit for copyright?
Certainly not for a line of text. And, IMO, probably not even for a "major rewrite" situation.
The only scenario wherein I'd take the effort to recopyright is if the new draft was substantially unrecognizable from the previous draft.
In the terribly unlikely event that someone steals your script, they'll probably steal the concept or the whole thing, not a scene or bit.
Also, don't forget you can register your script with the WGA online. It's faster and easier.
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Old Today, 01:54 AM #6
Jerm
To register your script with WGA do you have to join WGA?
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Old Today, 02:11 AM #7
xhouseboy
No. They register scripts for members and non-members.
But to qualify for membership of the Guild, UK or WGA, one must have had work produced, optioned, etc. And the production company must be also be recognised by the Guild.
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You crossed the line, Jake - I didn't see no line, Gus. I was just tryin' to get through the territory without gettin' scalped.
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Old Today, 05:22 AM #8
Maryn
Quote:
Originally Posted by BottomlessCup
Certainly not for a line of text. And, IMO, probably not even for a "major rewrite" situation.
The only scenario wherein I'd take the effort to recopyright is if the new draft was substantially unrecognizable from the previous draft.
In the terribly unlikely event that someone steals your script, they'll probably steal the concept or the whole thing, not a scene or bit.
Also, don't forget you can register your script with the WGA online. It's faster and easier.
Absolutely true--but the protection is different, and of a shorter duration.
Sad but true, a lot of writers' first several screenplays are unlikely to be saleable. (Lots of people say the average first sale is of a writer's ninth screenplay, but I don't know their source of information.) Since WGA and copyright registration are not free, be absolutely sure you need to spend the money before you do it.
Maryn, sticking to a writing budget
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"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Today, 06:24 AM #9
Prosperity
Smile Copyright Question
When I finish my book, should I get a copyright and ISBN number before I send it to a publisher? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to doing this?
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Old Today, 06:29 AM #10
Jamesaritchie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosperity
When I finish my book, should I get a copyright and ISBN number before I send it to a publisher? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to doing this?
No. You already have the copyright. You don't need to register it, and it would be silly to buy an ISBN when the publisher already has one waiting for your book.
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Old Today, 01:30 PM #11
dpaterso
It's all very well saying that you already have copyright of your own material, but proving this if the need arises is another matter entirely. Registering a novel or screenplay online almost instantly for 20 dollars or less before you send it out into the big bad world, is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
ProtectRite (http://www.protectrite.com/) is an alternative to the WGA registry.
-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.
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Old Today, 01:48 PM #12
Jamesaritchie
registraition
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpaterso
It's all very well saying that you already have copyright of your own material, but proving this if the need arises is another matter entirely. Registering a novel or screenplay online almost instantly for 20 dollars or less before you send it out into the big bad world, is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
ProtectRite (http://www.protectrite.com/) is an alternative to the WGA registry.
A screenplay, yes. But there is never, ever a need to register a novel, and sometimes doing so causes far more problems than it can possibly solve.
It has nothing to do with piece of mind. If you want peace of mind, find a priest. If yu want to be anoevlist, do as teh pros do, and as the agents, editors, and publishers ask. In publishing, registering is a bad move. In twenty-five years as a published novelist, and as an editor, I've never, ever met a professional writer who registers a manuscript. There are good reasons not to do so, and no good reason to do so.
In plain point of fact, the right way to do something is the way all the professional do it. Professionals, no matter how big, do not register their manuscripts before sending them out into the big bad world.
Fortunately, the publishing business and Hollywood are not only nothing alike, the aren't even distant cousin. No one, anywhere, for any reason, is going to steal your novel manuscript. And if someone were stupid enough to steal it, there isn't a thing in the world they could do with it.
If you've written a screenplay, absolutely register it. But if you have a novel manuscript, absolutely do not register it. It's the mark of an amateur, and it leaves a bad taate in the mouth of whoever you send it to. They know you shouldn't have registered it, they feel like you aren't even knowledgeable enough to trust them, and you're off on the wrong foot.
No one, anywhere, for any reason, is going to steal your novel manuscript. It simply does not happen. And this isn't Hollywood. No one can make any use at all of a stolen manuscript. Pro writers do not register their novel manuscript before sending them out, and if those who make millions know not to do so, and know nothing whatsoever is going to happen to tehir manuscript, then wannabes shouldn;t worry about it, either.
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Old Today, 01:55 PM #13
Boo_Radley
I've no idea about copyrighting when it comes to novels, but I'll take James' word for it.
Screenplays, on the other hand...sure, you might not HAVE to register every draft, or even a draft with a minor change, but what's the harm? I register every draft of every script I finish. I average about four drafts per script (some as many as seven or eight), which equals at least 80 bucks worth of registration fees per title.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but spending 20 bucks registering each draft and ensuring its safety is better than losing thousands on a sale because you didn't think anybody would really try to rip you off. They say in this industry that stealing screenplays is actually a rarity because it's cheaper for a producer to buy your script outright and pay someone to rewrite it than to steal it, produce it and then have to pay you millions in the lawsuit. But, I'd much rather avoid that scenario altogether and prefer being safe over being sorry.
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Old Today, 02:06 PM #14
Kenteicher
I realize general copyright laws apply to a lot more than manuscripts, however I don't think the govenment would have spent so much time writing laws about Copyright Infringement if it was not important. Go to this website to read the law:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html
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Old Today, 02:07 PM #15
dpaterso
No need to get your panties in a bunch over something so simple that's a question of personal preference.
Your take supposes that everyone who may come into contact with The Novel is absolutely honest beyond question and that absolutely nothing can ever go wrong or go astray.
I emphasized "everyone" deliberately. Everyone could be a lot of people.
Near the end of 2004 I posted a novel to a publisher (requested). It still hasn't arrived. **** knows where it is. What happens if it turns up with someone else's name on it? Yeah sure, that's crazy, that can't possibly happen, the odds must be millions-to-one against... Then again, that brown envelope exists somewhere in the big bad world. Waiting to be found and opened. By someone I don't know.
Ah what the heck, let it turn up. Let it be published. Let it sell like hotcakes. Suits me. I registered it before I posted it. And that was my personal choice.
-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.
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Old Today, 02:42 PM #16
Maryn
Derek, it's a small club, authors whose fiction has been stolen and sold, but don't believe "never" when anybody says it, even people with much experience.
I'm in the club. I hope I won't have to teach you the secret handshake, although the decode-o-ring is pretty cool.
Maryn, whose attorney advised against legal action as more costly than the recoverable amount
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"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Today, 02:44 PM #17
LloydBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryn
Derek, it's a small club, authors whose fiction has been stolen and sold, but don't believe "never" when anybody says it, even people with much experience.
Can you point out an instance where it has happened?
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Lloyd Brown
http://www.lloydwrites.com/
My RPGNet Column--Freelancing is NOT for Free
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Old Today, 03:32 PM #18
aspiringwriter
What about a film that was made in 1977 and I want to write a sequel?
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Old Today, 03:53 PM #19
dpaterso
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryn
Derek, it's a small club, authors whose fiction has been stolen and sold, but don't believe "never" when anybody says it, even people with much experience.
I won't; too cynical by nature.
Quote:
I'm in the club. I hope I won't have to teach you the secret handshake, although the decode-o-ring is pretty cool.
If it involves wearing a gold lamé G-string and tassels at club meetings, I'm in! Where do I sign?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown
Can you point out an instance where it has happened?
I think Maryn's saying it's happened to her. That's an instance, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspiringwriter
What about a film that was made in 1977 and I want to write a sequel?
You mean like Superman (1978)? You obtain permission from the copyright owner first. They own the character.
Everything is opinion. Nothing is gospel. Make your own minds up. Use the Force.
-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.
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Old Today, 04:42 PM #20
Hyphenate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesaritchie
No one, anywhere, for any reason, is going to steal your novel manuscript. It simply does not happen. And this isn't Hollywood. No one can make any use at all of a stolen manuscript. .
I have been visiting AW (I hate the word lurking -- it sounds like a timid stalker) for several months now and I haven't felt compelled to post until now.
I'm a television writer-producer with a healthy 20-year plus track record in the business, in both television and features -- the latter of the low-budget variety. As a matter of habit, I register each finished script... then I don't worry about it. Script-stealing is a very active urban legend and although everyone has a story about it happening, I've never known anyone who had it happen to them or to someone they knew. Perhaps the simple reason it doesn't happen much, if at all, is because when a script is sold, rewrites are always a part of the equation and if the thief can't write, he/she will be found out at that phase. If the thief can write, there would be no reason to steal in the first place. Scripts aren't all that difficult to write -- they're not as lengthy as novels -- pro-turn-around is 2-3 weeks. HOWEVER, I have seen MANY occasions where idea-scavengers hunt through scripts for concepts. In fact, when I first interned right out of grad school, a major Hollywood producer had his staff members cull the unsolicted specs for just that reason. I was horrified and quit, running off to television where it was more polite but I have heard more and more stories of such incidences.
That being said, the theft-fodder scripts were atrocious and the assigned scripts turned out good... and completely unrecognizable from the scripts they were "stolen" from. In most cases the assigned writers had no idea where the ideas came from and they wrote highly original work. Ideas can't be registered, after all, only the rendition of them.
So, the best defense against idea theft is to write a great script -- then the producers (unethical or sainted) would be happy to simply option or purchase your script outright. Even with this experience in my past, in the last 20 years, I have NEVER worried about anyone stealing something I wrote.
HOWEVER, and this is what compelled me to write this post -- I did have a novel stolen from me and it was published. So it can happen. How? In my case, I hired someone as a consultant on one my television shows -- he had a real-life occupation identical to one we were portraying and we relied on his experience to set us straight when we got it wrong. He worked really well with everyone and he coached the actors, read the scripts and talked with a myriad of below-the-lines. I had been writing a novel for about a decade -- just a little at a time since I am always busy and I had a hardcopy in my desk at the studio so if I had some time to revise, I did. This consultant went into my office, ostensibly to get a pen, and when I went back there I found him reading my novel. I don't like people going through my things but he looked up at me and said the magic words "I just couldn't put it down". Oh, boy, I was quite pleased. He asked if he could read it and I said yes. I mean HE WORKED FOR ME. He took the hard copy... a month later I asked if he would return it and he said he'd left it in a rental car. Okay...
A year later I heard that he'd written a book and was out on a book signing tour... I got a copy. It was my book. The title was changed but it's pretty much as I wrote it. I can't believe he thought I'd never find out. Anyway, like most people in the biz, I have a great lawyer. We've had several meetings about how best to proceed -- I've gone from mortification to a cold-assassin mode (I mean in terms of reputation, not murder). I will win in the end but that was my ONE book. I guess at least I know it was publishable... but, interestingly, it was published because, as it says on the book jacket, he's a "real life _______". My book character happened to be what he was in his day job... I thought he liked the book because of that. Ha!
So saying "It simply does not happen" is not true. It does happen. Maybe rarely. But it does.
I realize I'm lucky -- I have the means to take care of this... but that doesn't ameliorate my grief over my lost novel.
I hope Maryn will relate her experience as well.
And by the way, Mr. Patterson, I forwarded your lost 2004 manuscript to my erstwhile ex-consultant. I'm sure he will know what to do with it.
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Education is not a preparation for life; education is life itself. John Dewey
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Old Today, 05:00 PM #21
shutterspeed
Jamesaritchie:
You offer much in the way of dire warnings, but little in the way of specific reasons. I'd like to hear an explanation of why it would be a bad idea for writers to copyright a manuscript (especially one without a track record to use for writing comparison purposes).
As far as registering a screenplay, just one thing to remember: If you have professional aspirations, then it makes perfect sense to spend the money to protect your intellectual property. How do you rationalize spending 3 months to a year (more or less) writing, rewriting, and shopping your script and then balk at paying the measly $30 - $40 (forget exactly how much it is these days) to copyright your wares? Screenwriting has such low overhead anyway. Register it two and three times over if it brings you piece of mind. Besides, the nifty little copyright form (and online database listing) may be the only thing you have to show for your hard work. Frame it. Take pride in it. And know that you are legally protected.
Additionally, I see no reason why anyone would register their script with the WGA (unless an actual member). Copyright registration satisfies the same purpose (even moreso), and offers a lifetime of protection (plus, what, 50 years?) WGA offers 5 - 10 years (how many is it at this writing?), at which point you can re-register your script only ONCE. And that's only to prove the date your script was registered, not that you are the actual author of the work. Personally, I could care less if a "custodian" appears on my behalf in court if the actual ownership of my writing remains in question.
That said, I register with both.
But my original intent here was to respond to the notion that copyright registration is costly, unnecessary, and potentially harmful to your work.
Last edited by shutterspeed : Today at 05:02 PM.
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Old Today, 06:32 PM #22
Jerm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhouseboy
No. They register scripts for members and non-members.
But to qualify for membership of the Guild, UK or WGA, one must have had work produced, optioned, etc. And the production company must be also be recognised by the Guild.
Okay so I don't have to worry about paying the $2500 bucks anytime soon?
Another question I have is does anyone here prefer registering their script through WGA or through the Copyright.gov? Is there an advantage to one or the other.
- Reading through the copyright.gov it sounded like it was going to take around 5 to 6 months!! Which seems excessive. Where it sounds like on here that the WGA is almost instantaneous? Is that pretty accurate or am I way out in left field?
Thanks
Jerm
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Old Today, 06:46 PM #23
Boo_Radley
I don't know about the library of congress, but I register with the WGA online. In their systems it's pretty much instantaneous and it has taken me anywhere from three days to two weeks to receive the certification of copyright in the mail.
I understand my works are covered for five years through the WGA and I have no problem with that. But then, I'm optimistic; I don't tend to think the rights will belong to me that long.
Ultimately, it's just a matter of choice. Whatever works for you and makes you able to sleep comfortably at night.
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Old Today, 06:50 PM #24
Maryn
Sure, I'll relate my experience. It's strictly small-potatoes stuff, in a time so long ago that the computer aspects will be positively quaint.
When I was fairly new to writing fiction, I was part of a critique group formed online at Prodigy. Like many people, I did not have access to the internet, just Prodigy, which was the largest online community at the time, a couple million users. It was something like AOL, only without being a portal to the web.
Anyway, we didn't exchange mss. electronically but sent paper copies round-robin style. When the fat envelope reached you, you removed your story and any critiques, and if you had a new work ready, you stuck it in, along with a critique or two on something in the envelope, and sent it to the next writer.
One of my stories went missing. I was (said modestly, with downcast eyes) probably the best writer of the group and certainly the one whose work was most popular. By figuring out who'd read it, we knew in whose care the manuscript had disappeared: Kim's.
I private messaged Kim, but she did not reply and blocked my future messages. When others in the group private messaged her, she dropped Prodigy. I flattered myself thinking she'd kept photocopies of all my stories, and just hadn't had time to get this one xeroxed. I shrugged it off. So what? I still had it on my computer.
Okay, fast forward four or five months. Prodigy goes from unlimited minutes to charging by the hour, the beginning of its death throes as an online community. People leave in huge number, landing at various competitors. Many in the critique group land at AOL. They select user names which disguise who they are. (Prodigy used the name on the credit card that paid for it.) For the time being, I'm still at Prodigy.
A woman on one of the boards says she has this great story, and does anybody want to read it? Sure, people say. Post it. I can't, she says. It's got adult content. But if you'll send me five bucks and your address, I'll mail it to you, and I guarantee you'll think it's worth it.
Apparently she sold seven of them, for the princely sum of $35 total. They were all the missing story, as far as I was able to determine. Someone--Kim? Someone else in the group?--posted some of my other stories, sloppily typed, at a fiction website so bad I was glad my name wasn't on them.
Anyway, I talked to a lawyer, who sent Kim a certified letter, return receipt requested, telling her to stop and to pay me the proceeds of all sales. It was undeliverable; no one would sign for it. It languished at the post office until it came back to the lawyer. An online acquaintance who lived in the same city checked out Kim's address; the apartment was vacant.
The attorney told me it wasn't worth it to pursue her, even though she'd violated my copyright. He didn't charge me (and you all thought lawyers were bad guys, huh?) and even contacted the owners of the website where my other stories were posted. They removed them immediately.
Until Absolute Write, that was the last time I let anybody critique my work unless they did it to my face.
So, like I said, it wasn't a big deal, but it was the direct theft of someone's original fiction, sold to others, and published online without my knowledge or permission.
Maryn, who's both p!ssed anew and bemused by it all at the retelling
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"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Yesterday, 08:17 PM #26
Peggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo_Radley
I don't know about the library of congress, but I register with the WGA online. In their systems it's pretty much instantaneous and it has taken me anywhere from three days to two weeks to receive the certification of copyright in the mail.
I don't believe registering with the WGA registers your copyright. As maryn pointed out, WGA registration is not the same as copyright registration, but someone with legal expertise will have to say whether WGA registration is sufficient.
Also note that your copyright registration becomes effective as soon as the copyright office receives your application form, even if it takes a long time to receive the certificate.
Quote:
http://www.copyright.gov/register/performing.html
Your registration becomes effective on the day that the Copyright Office receives your application, payment, and copy(ies) in acceptable form. If your submission is in order, you will receive a certificate of registration in 4 to 5 months.
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Old Yesterday, 08:20 PM #27
Ivonia
Maryn,
So sorry to hear what happened to you
I have a little "paranoia" myself, but I'm also comforted by the fact that a lot of people are telling me I shouldn't worry about it too much either (particularly as I'm trying to submit a manuscript and a screenplay at the same time. I'm hearing that I shouldn't bother registering an MS, but screenplay should get one).
Besides that, I've been hearing that if producers like your story enough to "steal" it, what they'll do is buy it from you, then wreck the story however they want, and you can't do squat to them (cause they already paid you for the story. I heard that's how "Little Monsters" and the American version of "Godzilla" got ruined from the screenwriter's original versions).
Also, isn't a Library of Congress copyright the only "valid" thing you can bring in a court case? I'm not saying the WGA registration is useless, but I heard it wasn't recognized in the courts? Something like if someone rips off your work, and then you can bring that copyright up (the LOC one that is) and sue for money and damages, and anything else really doesn't "count"? Or maybe I'm just looking at it wrong? Can someone clear this up for us?
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 PM #28
Boo_Radley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy
I don't believe registering with the WGA registers your copyright. As maryn pointed out, WGA registration is not the same as copyright registration, but someone with legal expertise will have to say whether WGA registration is sufficient.
Taken from http://www.wgawregistry.org/webrss/regfaqs.html#quest2
"Why should I register my material?
The registration process places preventative measures against plagiarism or unauthorized use of an author's material. While someone else may have the same storyline or idea in his or her material, your evidence lies in your presentation of your work. Registering your work does not disallow others from having a similar storyline or theme. Rather, registering your work would potentially discourage others from using your work without your permission.
Though the Registry cannot prevent plagiarism, it can produce the registered material as well as confirm the date of registration. Registering your work creates legal evidence for the material that establishes a date for the material's existence. The WGAw Registry, as a neutral third party, can testify for that evidence."
Furthermore...
Does registration take the place of copyright?
Registering your work with the WGAw Registry does not take the place of registering with the Library of Congress, U.S. Copyright Office. However, both create valid legal evidence that can be used in court.
I'm seeing similarities between the two. Nothing can prevent your work from being copied and passed off as someone else's. However, a copyright -- OR, as it turns out, a wga registration -- can serve as legal documentation of when your material was submitted. If the date on your registration or copyright is earlier than that of the jerk-off who stole your work and made a load of money off it, the judge will deem he owes every single dime he made off it to you.
It may take a few days or couple weeks to get the wga documenation through snail-mail; but when registering online, once you've uploaded your manuscript, selected your payment option and completed the process, your material is officially registered.
Again, though, it's a simple matter of preference. I've never registered anything with the Library of Congress, but I do feel quite safe and secure with any and all material I've registered with the WGA.
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Old Today, 02:09 AM #29
xhouseboy
Google 'Maureen Plantagenet', and then consider whether taking every precaution to protect your work is a good idea or not. I've worked in this business for some years now, and I would advise writers to ensure that any and all work is fully protected.
__________________
You crossed the line, Jake - I didn't see no line, Gus. I was just tryin' to get through the territory without gettin' scalped.
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Old Today, 02:19 AM #30
Peggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhouseboy
Google 'Maureen Plantagenet', and then consider whether taking every precaution to protect your work is a good idea or not. I've worked in this business for some years now, and I would advise writers to ensure that any and all work is fully protected.
Wow, the BBC comes off as pretty evil. Has it improved in the 10 years since Plantagenet's article?
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Old Yesterday, 06:27 AM #1
Jerm
If a script is submitted to be copyrighted, but then later changed does it have to be submitted again for copyright?
Say I go back and change a word or a line of text does that constitute a resubmit for copyright?
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Old Yesterday, 06:38 AM #2
Perks
I'm thinking this will get more accurate attention in the screenwriting forum, so I'm going to zap it over there.
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM #3
clock_work9
Not sure about copyrite but upon registering, the wga suggest;
CHANGES TO MATERIAL
You may change your work as much as you prefer; however, when the storyline has been affected or changed extensively, it becomes new material and should be registered or documented again in some manner.
It is solely at your discretion to submit multiple drafts or completed drafts of the same work for registration. The Registry does not make comparisons of drafts or material content.
All submissions, including subsequent drafts of existing registrations, are considered completely separate registrations and should be submitted accordingly with the required fees.
Don't know if that helps but seems to make sense.
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Old Yesterday, 08:56 AM #4
Maryn
A fresh copyright registration is worth the expense only if you've made significant changes, IMO. Be aware that your work is copyrighted the moment it's saved to a fixed medium, from your hard drive to a printout to a cocktail napkin. Registering the copyright is what costs, because it affords you additional protections--if and only if your copyright is violated.
You can minimize the odds of that, of course, by thoroughly checking out agents and prodcos before you query. The legitimate ones are not going to steal your work. Consider copyright registration timing, too--no point in paying for it if your query doesn't elicit any requests for the script, so nobody sees it.
Maryn, hoping that's helpful
__________________
"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM #5
BottomlessCup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerm
If a script is submitted to be copyrighted, but then later changed does it have to be submitted again for copyright?
Say I go back and change a word or a line of text does that constitute a resubmit for copyright?
Certainly not for a line of text. And, IMO, probably not even for a "major rewrite" situation.
The only scenario wherein I'd take the effort to recopyright is if the new draft was substantially unrecognizable from the previous draft.
In the terribly unlikely event that someone steals your script, they'll probably steal the concept or the whole thing, not a scene or bit.
Also, don't forget you can register your script with the WGA online. It's faster and easier.
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Old Today, 01:54 AM #6
Jerm
To register your script with WGA do you have to join WGA?
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Old Today, 02:11 AM #7
xhouseboy
No. They register scripts for members and non-members.
But to qualify for membership of the Guild, UK or WGA, one must have had work produced, optioned, etc. And the production company must be also be recognised by the Guild.
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You crossed the line, Jake - I didn't see no line, Gus. I was just tryin' to get through the territory without gettin' scalped.
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Old Today, 05:22 AM #8
Maryn
Quote:
Originally Posted by BottomlessCup
Certainly not for a line of text. And, IMO, probably not even for a "major rewrite" situation.
The only scenario wherein I'd take the effort to recopyright is if the new draft was substantially unrecognizable from the previous draft.
In the terribly unlikely event that someone steals your script, they'll probably steal the concept or the whole thing, not a scene or bit.
Also, don't forget you can register your script with the WGA online. It's faster and easier.
Absolutely true--but the protection is different, and of a shorter duration.
Sad but true, a lot of writers' first several screenplays are unlikely to be saleable. (Lots of people say the average first sale is of a writer's ninth screenplay, but I don't know their source of information.) Since WGA and copyright registration are not free, be absolutely sure you need to spend the money before you do it.
Maryn, sticking to a writing budget
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"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Today, 06:24 AM #9
Prosperity
Smile Copyright Question
When I finish my book, should I get a copyright and ISBN number before I send it to a publisher? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to doing this?
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Old Today, 06:29 AM #10
Jamesaritchie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prosperity
When I finish my book, should I get a copyright and ISBN number before I send it to a publisher? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to doing this?
No. You already have the copyright. You don't need to register it, and it would be silly to buy an ISBN when the publisher already has one waiting for your book.
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Old Today, 01:30 PM #11
dpaterso
It's all very well saying that you already have copyright of your own material, but proving this if the need arises is another matter entirely. Registering a novel or screenplay online almost instantly for 20 dollars or less before you send it out into the big bad world, is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
ProtectRite (http://www.protectrite.com/) is an alternative to the WGA registry.
-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.
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Old Today, 01:48 PM #12
Jamesaritchie
registraition
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpaterso
It's all very well saying that you already have copyright of your own material, but proving this if the need arises is another matter entirely. Registering a novel or screenplay online almost instantly for 20 dollars or less before you send it out into the big bad world, is a small price to pay for peace of mind.
ProtectRite (http://www.protectrite.com/) is an alternative to the WGA registry.
A screenplay, yes. But there is never, ever a need to register a novel, and sometimes doing so causes far more problems than it can possibly solve.
It has nothing to do with piece of mind. If you want peace of mind, find a priest. If yu want to be anoevlist, do as teh pros do, and as the agents, editors, and publishers ask. In publishing, registering is a bad move. In twenty-five years as a published novelist, and as an editor, I've never, ever met a professional writer who registers a manuscript. There are good reasons not to do so, and no good reason to do so.
In plain point of fact, the right way to do something is the way all the professional do it. Professionals, no matter how big, do not register their manuscripts before sending them out into the big bad world.
Fortunately, the publishing business and Hollywood are not only nothing alike, the aren't even distant cousin. No one, anywhere, for any reason, is going to steal your novel manuscript. And if someone were stupid enough to steal it, there isn't a thing in the world they could do with it.
If you've written a screenplay, absolutely register it. But if you have a novel manuscript, absolutely do not register it. It's the mark of an amateur, and it leaves a bad taate in the mouth of whoever you send it to. They know you shouldn't have registered it, they feel like you aren't even knowledgeable enough to trust them, and you're off on the wrong foot.
No one, anywhere, for any reason, is going to steal your novel manuscript. It simply does not happen. And this isn't Hollywood. No one can make any use at all of a stolen manuscript. Pro writers do not register their novel manuscript before sending them out, and if those who make millions know not to do so, and know nothing whatsoever is going to happen to tehir manuscript, then wannabes shouldn;t worry about it, either.
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Old Today, 01:55 PM #13
Boo_Radley
I've no idea about copyrighting when it comes to novels, but I'll take James' word for it.
Screenplays, on the other hand...sure, you might not HAVE to register every draft, or even a draft with a minor change, but what's the harm? I register every draft of every script I finish. I average about four drafts per script (some as many as seven or eight), which equals at least 80 bucks worth of registration fees per title.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but spending 20 bucks registering each draft and ensuring its safety is better than losing thousands on a sale because you didn't think anybody would really try to rip you off. They say in this industry that stealing screenplays is actually a rarity because it's cheaper for a producer to buy your script outright and pay someone to rewrite it than to steal it, produce it and then have to pay you millions in the lawsuit. But, I'd much rather avoid that scenario altogether and prefer being safe over being sorry.
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Old Today, 02:06 PM #14
Kenteicher
I realize general copyright laws apply to a lot more than manuscripts, however I don't think the govenment would have spent so much time writing laws about Copyright Infringement if it was not important. Go to this website to read the law:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html
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Old Today, 02:07 PM #15
dpaterso
No need to get your panties in a bunch over something so simple that's a question of personal preference.
Your take supposes that everyone who may come into contact with The Novel is absolutely honest beyond question and that absolutely nothing can ever go wrong or go astray.
I emphasized "everyone" deliberately. Everyone could be a lot of people.
Near the end of 2004 I posted a novel to a publisher (requested). It still hasn't arrived. **** knows where it is. What happens if it turns up with someone else's name on it? Yeah sure, that's crazy, that can't possibly happen, the odds must be millions-to-one against... Then again, that brown envelope exists somewhere in the big bad world. Waiting to be found and opened. By someone I don't know.
Ah what the heck, let it turn up. Let it be published. Let it sell like hotcakes. Suits me. I registered it before I posted it. And that was my personal choice.
-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.
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Old Today, 02:42 PM #16
Maryn
Derek, it's a small club, authors whose fiction has been stolen and sold, but don't believe "never" when anybody says it, even people with much experience.
I'm in the club. I hope I won't have to teach you the secret handshake, although the decode-o-ring is pretty cool.
Maryn, whose attorney advised against legal action as more costly than the recoverable amount
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"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Today, 02:44 PM #17
LloydBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryn
Derek, it's a small club, authors whose fiction has been stolen and sold, but don't believe "never" when anybody says it, even people with much experience.
Can you point out an instance where it has happened?
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Lloyd Brown
http://www.lloydwrites.com/
My RPGNet Column--Freelancing is NOT for Free
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Old Today, 03:32 PM #18
aspiringwriter
What about a film that was made in 1977 and I want to write a sequel?
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LAYLA- One of the best songs EVER.
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Old Today, 03:53 PM #19
dpaterso
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryn
Derek, it's a small club, authors whose fiction has been stolen and sold, but don't believe "never" when anybody says it, even people with much experience.
I won't; too cynical by nature.
Quote:
I'm in the club. I hope I won't have to teach you the secret handshake, although the decode-o-ring is pretty cool.
If it involves wearing a gold lamé G-string and tassels at club meetings, I'm in! Where do I sign?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LloydBrown
Can you point out an instance where it has happened?
I think Maryn's saying it's happened to her. That's an instance, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aspiringwriter
What about a film that was made in 1977 and I want to write a sequel?
You mean like Superman (1978)? You obtain permission from the copyright owner first. They own the character.
Everything is opinion. Nothing is gospel. Make your own minds up. Use the Force.
-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies.
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.
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Old Today, 04:42 PM #20
Hyphenate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesaritchie
No one, anywhere, for any reason, is going to steal your novel manuscript. It simply does not happen. And this isn't Hollywood. No one can make any use at all of a stolen manuscript. .
I have been visiting AW (I hate the word lurking -- it sounds like a timid stalker) for several months now and I haven't felt compelled to post until now.
I'm a television writer-producer with a healthy 20-year plus track record in the business, in both television and features -- the latter of the low-budget variety. As a matter of habit, I register each finished script... then I don't worry about it. Script-stealing is a very active urban legend and although everyone has a story about it happening, I've never known anyone who had it happen to them or to someone they knew. Perhaps the simple reason it doesn't happen much, if at all, is because when a script is sold, rewrites are always a part of the equation and if the thief can't write, he/she will be found out at that phase. If the thief can write, there would be no reason to steal in the first place. Scripts aren't all that difficult to write -- they're not as lengthy as novels -- pro-turn-around is 2-3 weeks. HOWEVER, I have seen MANY occasions where idea-scavengers hunt through scripts for concepts. In fact, when I first interned right out of grad school, a major Hollywood producer had his staff members cull the unsolicted specs for just that reason. I was horrified and quit, running off to television where it was more polite but I have heard more and more stories of such incidences.
That being said, the theft-fodder scripts were atrocious and the assigned scripts turned out good... and completely unrecognizable from the scripts they were "stolen" from. In most cases the assigned writers had no idea where the ideas came from and they wrote highly original work. Ideas can't be registered, after all, only the rendition of them.
So, the best defense against idea theft is to write a great script -- then the producers (unethical or sainted) would be happy to simply option or purchase your script outright. Even with this experience in my past, in the last 20 years, I have NEVER worried about anyone stealing something I wrote.
HOWEVER, and this is what compelled me to write this post -- I did have a novel stolen from me and it was published. So it can happen. How? In my case, I hired someone as a consultant on one my television shows -- he had a real-life occupation identical to one we were portraying and we relied on his experience to set us straight when we got it wrong. He worked really well with everyone and he coached the actors, read the scripts and talked with a myriad of below-the-lines. I had been writing a novel for about a decade -- just a little at a time since I am always busy and I had a hardcopy in my desk at the studio so if I had some time to revise, I did. This consultant went into my office, ostensibly to get a pen, and when I went back there I found him reading my novel. I don't like people going through my things but he looked up at me and said the magic words "I just couldn't put it down". Oh, boy, I was quite pleased. He asked if he could read it and I said yes. I mean HE WORKED FOR ME. He took the hard copy... a month later I asked if he would return it and he said he'd left it in a rental car. Okay...
A year later I heard that he'd written a book and was out on a book signing tour... I got a copy. It was my book. The title was changed but it's pretty much as I wrote it. I can't believe he thought I'd never find out. Anyway, like most people in the biz, I have a great lawyer. We've had several meetings about how best to proceed -- I've gone from mortification to a cold-assassin mode (I mean in terms of reputation, not murder). I will win in the end but that was my ONE book. I guess at least I know it was publishable... but, interestingly, it was published because, as it says on the book jacket, he's a "real life _______". My book character happened to be what he was in his day job... I thought he liked the book because of that. Ha!
So saying "It simply does not happen" is not true. It does happen. Maybe rarely. But it does.
I realize I'm lucky -- I have the means to take care of this... but that doesn't ameliorate my grief over my lost novel.
I hope Maryn will relate her experience as well.
And by the way, Mr. Patterson, I forwarded your lost 2004 manuscript to my erstwhile ex-consultant. I'm sure he will know what to do with it.
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Education is not a preparation for life; education is life itself. John Dewey
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Old Today, 05:00 PM #21
shutterspeed
Jamesaritchie:
You offer much in the way of dire warnings, but little in the way of specific reasons. I'd like to hear an explanation of why it would be a bad idea for writers to copyright a manuscript (especially one without a track record to use for writing comparison purposes).
As far as registering a screenplay, just one thing to remember: If you have professional aspirations, then it makes perfect sense to spend the money to protect your intellectual property. How do you rationalize spending 3 months to a year (more or less) writing, rewriting, and shopping your script and then balk at paying the measly $30 - $40 (forget exactly how much it is these days) to copyright your wares? Screenwriting has such low overhead anyway. Register it two and three times over if it brings you piece of mind. Besides, the nifty little copyright form (and online database listing) may be the only thing you have to show for your hard work. Frame it. Take pride in it. And know that you are legally protected.
Additionally, I see no reason why anyone would register their script with the WGA (unless an actual member). Copyright registration satisfies the same purpose (even moreso), and offers a lifetime of protection (plus, what, 50 years?) WGA offers 5 - 10 years (how many is it at this writing?), at which point you can re-register your script only ONCE. And that's only to prove the date your script was registered, not that you are the actual author of the work. Personally, I could care less if a "custodian" appears on my behalf in court if the actual ownership of my writing remains in question.
That said, I register with both.
But my original intent here was to respond to the notion that copyright registration is costly, unnecessary, and potentially harmful to your work.
Last edited by shutterspeed : Today at 05:02 PM.
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Old Today, 06:32 PM #22
Jerm
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhouseboy
No. They register scripts for members and non-members.
But to qualify for membership of the Guild, UK or WGA, one must have had work produced, optioned, etc. And the production company must be also be recognised by the Guild.
Okay so I don't have to worry about paying the $2500 bucks anytime soon?
Another question I have is does anyone here prefer registering their script through WGA or through the Copyright.gov? Is there an advantage to one or the other.
- Reading through the copyright.gov it sounded like it was going to take around 5 to 6 months!! Which seems excessive. Where it sounds like on here that the WGA is almost instantaneous? Is that pretty accurate or am I way out in left field?
Thanks
Jerm
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Old Today, 06:46 PM #23
Boo_Radley
I don't know about the library of congress, but I register with the WGA online. In their systems it's pretty much instantaneous and it has taken me anywhere from three days to two weeks to receive the certification of copyright in the mail.
I understand my works are covered for five years through the WGA and I have no problem with that. But then, I'm optimistic; I don't tend to think the rights will belong to me that long.
Ultimately, it's just a matter of choice. Whatever works for you and makes you able to sleep comfortably at night.
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Old Today, 06:50 PM #24
Maryn
Sure, I'll relate my experience. It's strictly small-potatoes stuff, in a time so long ago that the computer aspects will be positively quaint.
When I was fairly new to writing fiction, I was part of a critique group formed online at Prodigy. Like many people, I did not have access to the internet, just Prodigy, which was the largest online community at the time, a couple million users. It was something like AOL, only without being a portal to the web.
Anyway, we didn't exchange mss. electronically but sent paper copies round-robin style. When the fat envelope reached you, you removed your story and any critiques, and if you had a new work ready, you stuck it in, along with a critique or two on something in the envelope, and sent it to the next writer.
One of my stories went missing. I was (said modestly, with downcast eyes) probably the best writer of the group and certainly the one whose work was most popular. By figuring out who'd read it, we knew in whose care the manuscript had disappeared: Kim's.
I private messaged Kim, but she did not reply and blocked my future messages. When others in the group private messaged her, she dropped Prodigy. I flattered myself thinking she'd kept photocopies of all my stories, and just hadn't had time to get this one xeroxed. I shrugged it off. So what? I still had it on my computer.
Okay, fast forward four or five months. Prodigy goes from unlimited minutes to charging by the hour, the beginning of its death throes as an online community. People leave in huge number, landing at various competitors. Many in the critique group land at AOL. They select user names which disguise who they are. (Prodigy used the name on the credit card that paid for it.) For the time being, I'm still at Prodigy.
A woman on one of the boards says she has this great story, and does anybody want to read it? Sure, people say. Post it. I can't, she says. It's got adult content. But if you'll send me five bucks and your address, I'll mail it to you, and I guarantee you'll think it's worth it.
Apparently she sold seven of them, for the princely sum of $35 total. They were all the missing story, as far as I was able to determine. Someone--Kim? Someone else in the group?--posted some of my other stories, sloppily typed, at a fiction website so bad I was glad my name wasn't on them.
Anyway, I talked to a lawyer, who sent Kim a certified letter, return receipt requested, telling her to stop and to pay me the proceeds of all sales. It was undeliverable; no one would sign for it. It languished at the post office until it came back to the lawyer. An online acquaintance who lived in the same city checked out Kim's address; the apartment was vacant.
The attorney told me it wasn't worth it to pursue her, even though she'd violated my copyright. He didn't charge me (and you all thought lawyers were bad guys, huh?) and even contacted the owners of the website where my other stories were posted. They removed them immediately.
Until Absolute Write, that was the last time I let anybody critique my work unless they did it to my face.
So, like I said, it wasn't a big deal, but it was the direct theft of someone's original fiction, sold to others, and published online without my knowledge or permission.
Maryn, who's both p!ssed anew and bemused by it all at the retelling
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"Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" --Louis Jordan
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Old Yesterday, 08:17 PM #26
Peggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo_Radley
I don't know about the library of congress, but I register with the WGA online. In their systems it's pretty much instantaneous and it has taken me anywhere from three days to two weeks to receive the certification of copyright in the mail.
I don't believe registering with the WGA registers your copyright. As maryn pointed out, WGA registration is not the same as copyright registration, but someone with legal expertise will have to say whether WGA registration is sufficient.
Also note that your copyright registration becomes effective as soon as the copyright office receives your application form, even if it takes a long time to receive the certificate.
Quote:
http://www.copyright.gov/register/performing.html
Your registration becomes effective on the day that the Copyright Office receives your application, payment, and copy(ies) in acceptable form. If your submission is in order, you will receive a certificate of registration in 4 to 5 months.
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Old Yesterday, 08:20 PM #27
Ivonia
Maryn,
So sorry to hear what happened to you
I have a little "paranoia" myself, but I'm also comforted by the fact that a lot of people are telling me I shouldn't worry about it too much either (particularly as I'm trying to submit a manuscript and a screenplay at the same time. I'm hearing that I shouldn't bother registering an MS, but screenplay should get one).
Besides that, I've been hearing that if producers like your story enough to "steal" it, what they'll do is buy it from you, then wreck the story however they want, and you can't do squat to them (cause they already paid you for the story. I heard that's how "Little Monsters" and the American version of "Godzilla" got ruined from the screenwriter's original versions).
Also, isn't a Library of Congress copyright the only "valid" thing you can bring in a court case? I'm not saying the WGA registration is useless, but I heard it wasn't recognized in the courts? Something like if someone rips off your work, and then you can bring that copyright up (the LOC one that is) and sue for money and damages, and anything else really doesn't "count"? Or maybe I'm just looking at it wrong? Can someone clear this up for us?
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 PM #28
Boo_Radley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy
I don't believe registering with the WGA registers your copyright. As maryn pointed out, WGA registration is not the same as copyright registration, but someone with legal expertise will have to say whether WGA registration is sufficient.
Taken from http://www.wgawregistry.org/webrss/regfaqs.html#quest2
"Why should I register my material?
The registration process places preventative measures against plagiarism or unauthorized use of an author's material. While someone else may have the same storyline or idea in his or her material, your evidence lies in your presentation of your work. Registering your work does not disallow others from having a similar storyline or theme. Rather, registering your work would potentially discourage others from using your work without your permission.
Though the Registry cannot prevent plagiarism, it can produce the registered material as well as confirm the date of registration. Registering your work creates legal evidence for the material that establishes a date for the material's existence. The WGAw Registry, as a neutral third party, can testify for that evidence."
Furthermore...
Does registration take the place of copyright?
Registering your work with the WGAw Registry does not take the place of registering with the Library of Congress, U.S. Copyright Office. However, both create valid legal evidence that can be used in court.
I'm seeing similarities between the two. Nothing can prevent your work from being copied and passed off as someone else's. However, a copyright -- OR, as it turns out, a wga registration -- can serve as legal documentation of when your material was submitted. If the date on your registration or copyright is earlier than that of the jerk-off who stole your work and made a load of money off it, the judge will deem he owes every single dime he made off it to you.
It may take a few days or couple weeks to get the wga documenation through snail-mail; but when registering online, once you've uploaded your manuscript, selected your payment option and completed the process, your material is officially registered.
Again, though, it's a simple matter of preference. I've never registered anything with the Library of Congress, but I do feel quite safe and secure with any and all material I've registered with the WGA.
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Old Today, 02:09 AM #29
xhouseboy
Google 'Maureen Plantagenet', and then consider whether taking every precaution to protect your work is a good idea or not. I've worked in this business for some years now, and I would advise writers to ensure that any and all work is fully protected.
__________________
You crossed the line, Jake - I didn't see no line, Gus. I was just tryin' to get through the territory without gettin' scalped.
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Old Today, 02:19 AM #30
Peggy
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhouseboy
Google 'Maureen Plantagenet', and then consider whether taking every precaution to protect your work is a good idea or not. I've worked in this business for some years now, and I would advise writers to ensure that any and all work is fully protected.
Wow, the BBC comes off as pretty evil. Has it improved in the 10 years since Plantagenet's article?
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be working no win no fee if the writer only registered with the WGA/ProtectRite/whatever.