How to deal with info-cluster-thermonukes?

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

So any larger story - say beyond three chapters - that I try to write I always have problems with HUGE info-bombs. I won't post it here but what I'm working on at the moment has three consecutive pages on describing: Characters clothing, the room and a small amount of their back-story.

Then one of them talks for a further one and a half pages - during which he is just infobombing in dialogue form - describing a city he visited during his travels.

I was wondering if anyone has any techniques to deal with this? How do you get the information in without doing stuff like this, or without cliché things like repeated use of the word "which" or the phrase "as such" and whatnot as you have the characters do banal things?

Was just wondering. Thanks!

BethS · Apr 16, 2013

Best solution is not to do it.

How do other authors handle it? Emulate them.

Think of informational exposition as being like spice--sprinkle it in here and there, but don't make whole meals out of it.

tko · Apr 16, 2013

nuke them

You don't need ANY backstory. You don't need any info dumping.

At the start.

Look at any movie. They almost always open with some exciting scene where you don't know any of the characters, what's going on, or even who is good or bad. Because if they did an info dump 1st scene, you'd walk out.

What drives a story? Conflict, mystery, and excitement. Can you have all of these with info dumps? Sure.

Okay, you need the info sooner or later, because without the info, you don't have a full story. Full stories = completeness and reader satisfaction. But info dumps should be liking putting medicine in ice cream - the reader doesn't even feel them going down.

Typically, info dumps are for the writer. To get him oriented at the start. The reader wants conflict. Not info.

Once you get the story moving, you can toss in some small info dumps. By that time, the reader will be begging for them, because he has questions that need answering.

Remember, a lack of info can create an interest that drives a story.

The trick is to find a balance. Like starting a fire by using tiny pieces of kindling, and feeding in bigger and bigger pieces.

ellio · Apr 16, 2013

So, with me, I tend to find that when I'm info-dumping I'm doing it because I want the reader to picture the scene/characters exactly the same way I do.

You know what I learned? Never going to happen. Everyone is going to imprint their own ideas and traits onto your characters or the settings no matter if you had a whole book to describe them in depth. And, as a reader, I don't on the whole like being told too much because I want the characters to feel like they're mine. I want them to feel like nobody else is on the journey with them except me.

My suggestions are to look over it, think really hard about what is necessary and what is just your romanticised idea of how you see the scene. Delete anything that isn't going to move the plot forward.

As for the scene where your character is talking, or telling about his travels, that's the sort of thing you might be able to drop in at small snippets along the way. If his tale of the city has a point- cut to it. Descriptions of where he was don't matter. Remember, it's not a film or a play and longwinded monologues are difficult to concentrate on in a novel. They're very much auditory things.

Also I find that when I info dump it's a lot easier to see what I need and what I don't need when I come back to it with fresh eyes. Maybe leave it alone for a while and try again in a few weeks to try and edit it? Or alternatively don't worry for now, finish the whole thing, and try and cut down in the editing process once it's all done.

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

Okay I will get right on that. I think you're probably right about me projecting my own ridged ideas of my characters onto the reader, as opposed to creating a means for them to immerse themselves into the story.

I think I'm so used to writing short stories I'm in the mind set that I have to get everything told in a much smaller space - but there is more to BE told since I'm now trying to write a more in-depth, larger story. I'll try to describe him as simply wearing "The Third Year Academy Uniform" and drop small hints as to what that actually is along the way, maybe?

As for the dialogue, most of the description he gives isn't directly important to the plot; but I feel it's a key part to explaining the relationship between the characters and giving depth to the world it's self. The most important thing is not so much what he told her, but the fact that he told her it. Essentially he is a traveling student and she a lonely young girl who he considers family - frequently visiting her with stories of his travels to keep her company.

Maybe I can try to convey that point in a much more compact way and, since the story will take place in that city at some point, I could describe it in more detail then? Maybe having the story he told her referenced to further enhance this point?

I really need to practice letting information seep out slowly instead of yelling at the reader "Have ALL of the information! Have it now!" hehe

Anyway thanks for the responses guys!

Russell Secord · Apr 16, 2013

A well-known example of an infodump is the introduction to Star Wars. "A long time ago in a galaxy far away" piques your interest. The rest gives you a quick dose of background. Just before you fall asleep, the fireworks start. The other crucial info is given by great actors Alec Guinness and James Earl Jones, who could probably make a phone book sound interesting.

That's how to do infodumps. Keep them short, dress them up, and try to work them into the action.

quicklime · Apr 16, 2013

words matter....the intro to Star Wars is not an infodump. Nor is a flashback automatically an infodump, or a chapter of back-story.

An infodump is a clumsy and/or jarring and/or transparent attempt to explain something or intorduce back-story...there IS NO GOOD INFODUMP. If you introduce those elements well, it isn't an infodump.

seconding beth, 1) don't do it and 2) look at similar works, and pay attention to how they handle (or, in many cases, choose NOT to handle) dumping back-story.

Pking · Apr 16, 2013

Darkside said:
So any larger story - say beyond three chapters - that I try to write I always have problems with HUGE info-bombs. I won't post it here but what I'm working on at the moment has three consecutive pages on describing: Characters clothing, the room and a small amount of their back-story.

Then one of them talks for a further one and a half pages - during which he is just infobombing in dialogue form - describing a city he visited during his travels.

I was wondering if anyone has any techniques to deal with this? How do you get the information in without doing stuff like this, or without cliché things like repeated use of the word "which" or the phrase "as such" and whatnot as you have the characters do banal things?

Was just wondering. Thanks!

Before having any info-dumping I'd make sure that the information being "dumped" on the reader is A. interesting and B. relevant to the plot.

To set it up so it unfolds naturally I'd have the info-dumping when the pace of the story is to be slowed down, perhaps after some intensive scenes. I also make sure to spark some curiosity in the reader and then convey the information in an interesting and dynamic way.

E.g. we want to give back-story about MC's travels. Instead of having the dialogue: "How was it in <insert city here>", "It was great I blah blah", I would set it up by having another character be curious about MC - perhaps he seems to act in a certain unusual way ever since he returned from the trip, or maybe he has an ugly scar on his arm, or maybe there is a mysterious trinket in his house, and the character wonders what that is about. Then I'd have MC tell a story about his travels that conveys the information in a way that is interesting and dynamic.

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

Okay I've essentially created a new folder and cut/pasted the offending sections into files in that folder - I'll try to work the information into the story more naturally.
Thanks everyone!

Pking · Apr 16, 2013

Russell Secord said:
A well-known example of an infodump is the introduction to Star Wars. "A long time ago in a galaxy far away" piques your interest. The rest gives you a quick dose of background. Just before you fall asleep, the fireworks start. The other crucial info is given by great actors Alec Guinness and James Earl Jones, who could probably make a phone book sound interesting.

That's how to do infodumps. Keep them short, dress them up, and try to work them into the action.

I don't remember anything in that text-crawl (except the opening line "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away"). It makes me wonder if any of it was actually necessary.. However, I like that it gives the movie a certain "space saga" tone right from the start.

Clubmonstar · Apr 16, 2013

Great advice here from tko and ellio. Think I might have commited a few infodumping crimes myself, too early in my first chapter. Need to get recycling I think

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

Pking said:
I don't remember anything in that text-crawl (except the opening line "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away"). It makes me wonder if any of it was actually necessary.. However, I like that it gives the movie a certain "space saga" tone right from the start.

Well; I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy that unnecessary is inherently conterminous with bad. I never read it either though xD in fact all I can remember about those movies is the incredibly bad transition effects...was it edited in windows movie maker or something?
Anyway back on topic (Sort of) anyone ever read a book called: Seductive Amoeba?

I guess I have to agree with you guys though; unnecessary information for the sake of it's self is almost always bound to cause boredom or harm the flow. I shall weave it in like the family of spiders that live in my brain weave their webs into my cerebral cortex.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Apr 16, 2013

quicklime said:
An infodump is a clumsy and/or jarring and/or transparent attempt to explain something or intorduce back-story...there IS NO GOOD INFODUMP. If you introduce those elements well, it isn't an infodump.

Amen

Quickie

Darkside, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Now that you know you have a problem... just, yanno... stop doing it

Or, like... what the other guys said.

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Amen

Quickie

Darkside, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

Now that you know you have a problem... just, yanno... stop doing it

Or, like... what the other guys said.

Do I have to go to rehab? Will we sit in a circle and talk without describing anything in detail? Will they give us a small amount of paper each day to write incredibly redundant and long-winded back-stories on just to ease the withdrawal symptoms? :O

Anyway yeah you're right. I think I still have a problem defining what is and isn't acceptable levels of information, and when it is and isn't appropriate to describe things in less or more detail - but that comes with experience I assume.

I guess I'll just have to grab a random passerby and yell at them "Read this!" Then time how long it takes them to fall asleep and using cleaver calculations involving triangles I can determine which parts bored their socks off!

Seriously though I'll keep working at it! Nose to the grindstone! Woop!

Roxxsmom · Apr 16, 2013

tko said:
You don't need ANY backstory. You don't need any info dumping.

At the start.

This. You need to hook the character is with something intriguing. Show them an interesting character and situation (it doesn't have to be an action scene). Dribble the backstory with intriguing little dribbles here and there as the story unfolds. You may want a longer exposition or flashback at some point, once the readers are invested and curious, but it's rarely intriguing to open a story with such.

blacbird · Apr 16, 2013

Darkside said:
what I'm working on at the moment has three consecutive pages on describing: Characters clothing, the room

Why? What is important about the character's clothing, or the room? If nothing really is important, leave it out. If something is important, connect that with the important matter at the time it becomes important for the story. You don't need to describe this kind of stuff up front, disconnected from the story.

The same observation is true of "back-story". Don't get sucked into the quicksand of believing that "the reader needs to know" X and Y and Z, before the story can actually start. And be wary of excessive stage-direction and choreography of trivial movement. That's another easy trap to get caught in.

caw

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

Yeah. The way I write, and always have, is as follows:
Step 1.) Get idea.
Step 2.) Roll face on keyboard for a few hours
Step 3 - Infinity.) Revise

Problem is since this was my first attempt at anything beyond a small story I resolved to pay much more attention to detail, as a result I ended up with this whole chunk around the middle of the first chapter dedicated to it, that I wasn't really sure how to deal with.

You are 100% right, I was indeed

blacbird said:
...sucked into the quicksand of believing that "the reader needs to know" X and Y and Z, before the story can actually start.

But thanks to everyone here I think I've got it under the thumb for now, only time can tell I guess. Thanks!

Treehouseman · Apr 16, 2013

Only tell enough details to tell the story from that moment. If a man walks into a room, we only need MAN and ROOM.

We don't need to know that he has a good sense of humour, enjoys long walks on the beach, had a cat called Spot when he was nine, and wore an onion on his belt as was the fashion at the time.

Until something comes up in the plot to necessitate that information. Then tell them!

rwm4768 · Apr 16, 2013

The reader doesn't need to know everything right away. In fact, some books never reveal a lot of that "cool stuff" the author came up with in the planning stage. If you look at most books, you'll find occasional sentences, sometimes paragraphs, delivering info. But it's rare to find one that goes on for pages and pages of infodump, even in fantasy and science fiction.

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

rwm4768 said:
The reader doesn't need to know everything right away. In fact, some books never reveal a lot of that "cool stuff" the author came up with in the planning stage. If you look at most books, you'll find occasional sentences, sometimes paragraphs, delivering info. But it's rare to find one that goes on for pages and pages of infodump, even in fantasy and science fiction.

Yeah. I've formulated a plot (Or I would have ended up in gaol or shot) - Since I only really write fantasy I'm going to reread Eragon, Dragon-Lance, Go Rin No Sho and anything Lord of The Rings related, taking special note for their attention to detail, how characters are described and such, until I learn how to do this to acceptable standards.

Also I'm probably going to end up implementing a drawn map like Christopher Paolini did in Eragon, for no other reason than I LOVE world building and it's such an awesome idea!

njmagas · Apr 16, 2013

Think of it this way: Any time you go into detail to describe something you are taking your reader by the hand, pointing, and saying, "look at this" Some readers will get bored by constant distraction and some readers will become irritated that the author doesn't have enough faith in them to fill in their own blanks.

That said, my first drafts are always huge info dumps. That helps me during revision to relive the scene (I have the memory of a goldfish). That level of detail is almost always scrapped though, unless it's something that either my POV character needs to notice, or my reader 100% cannot understand the story without.

There's nothing wrong with letting your reader build his or her own idea about your world. Give them the basics of what they need to know to feel like they are there, and let them have at it.

Darkside · Apr 16, 2013

njmagas said:
Think of it this way: Any time you go into detail to describe something you are taking your reader by the hand, pointing, and saying, "look at this" Some readers will get bored by constant distraction and some readers will become irritated that the author doesn't have enough faith in them to fill in their own blanks.

That said, my first drafts are always huge info dumps. That helps me during revision to relive the scene (I have the memory of a goldfish). That level of detail is almost always scrapped though, unless it's something that either my POV character needs to notice, or my reader 100% cannot understand the story without.

There's nothing wrong with letting your reader build his or her own idea about your world. Give them the basics of what they need to know to feel like they are there, and let them have at it.

I see, although I have to ask, do you mean to the extend of absolutely NO unnecessary detail ever? Not the fact that it was raining or that there was a smell of burnt meant in the air. No extremely brief descriptions of people walked by on a busy street or the houses that line it? Nothing like that at all? Not even describing an impressive, and key to the world, structure if it's not used in the plot?

Because if so, and I'm not trying to sound arrogant, or ignorant or adverse to criticism here, but honestly I don't think I've ever read a book that does that...nor am I sure I'd ever want to...that sounds really...'empty'

blacbird · Apr 16, 2013

Darkside said:
I have to ask, do you mean to the extend of absolutely NO unnecessary detail ever?

un-nec-es-sar-y adj. Not needed. Superfluous. Unjustified. Lacking reason to exist.

-- Blacbird's Unabridged Dictionary, 2013 ed.

caw

njmagas · Apr 17, 2013

Darkside said:
I see, although I have to ask, do you mean to the extend of absolutely NO unnecessary detail ever? Not the fact that it was raining or that there was a smell of burnt meant in the air. No extremely brief descriptions of people walked by on a busy street or the houses that line it? Nothing like that at all? Not even describing an impressive, and key to the world, structure if it's not used in the plot?

Because if so, and I'm not trying to sound arrogant, or ignorant or adverse to criticism here, but honestly I don't think I've ever read a book that does that...nor am I sure I'd ever want to...that sounds really...'empty'

Yes, I mean absolutely no unnecessary details.

It's your job to figure out which details are necessary and which ones are not. Just keep in mind, that the reader probably doesn't need to know what year the curtains were bought in.

Another way I like to think of it is every single word was put there for a reason. I don't know how true that is for other people, but in every book I've read that I have (subjectively) found to be amazing, this is the impression I got.

Chris P · Apr 17, 2013

Great advice in this thread. I've heard it said that you should take your first draft, throw away the first three chapters, and start the book on the first page of chapter 4. That has been INCREDIBLY accurate for me, even as I'm working on my fifth novel-length work. The first three chapters have been more "setting the stage," which was really just infodumping and trying to give the characters history and personality. Their history and personality come through in their actions in resolving "the trouble," and don't need to be spelled out before "the trouble" beings. Don't worry, we'll figure out that Claire is stunningly beautiful and Caleb is a self-possessed pompous ass while they're running from the bad guy. Get to the bad guy already!

How to deal with info-cluster-thermonukes?

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