To info dump or not to info dump.

ThatKnight64 · Dec 24, 2012

Hello! First off, if there is already a thread about this I apologize and if this is the wrong place for this thread, doubly so.

I've read hundreds of books from Historical to Scifi and I've never minded a few well designed info dumps. A small info dump at the beginning of a series or book. A background history about the world the story takes place in. A brief description of your MC.
None of these things have ever bothered me if they were well designed and tightly written.

I'll admit to setting down a book because of a boring first chapter, or skipping a dull prologue entirely but some of my favorite books have info dumps in them and they seem to sell/attract readers. Spreading out details and slipping them in among the action is all well and good but sometimes it's less memorable for that. If you stick in a line about your MC's flowing black hair, while she's chopping down killer furbies and then ask me what her hair color is at the end of the book I'm probably not going to remember.

This doesn't mean I enjoy reading 2k words worth of info dump in the first chapter but if there is 2k words of info dump paragraphs, spread throughout a 100k long novel I'm not going to mind.

I basically feel that choosing to info dump or not is stylistic thing more than a do or don't.

So, I'm wondering a few things. Do other people mind info dumps? Does anyone else feel they help solidify some important details? How was it decided that info dumps are bad/a no-no? When is an info dump okay? When is an info dump not okay? Is it a matter of writing style?

Just some examples...
Favorite Novels with info dumps:
Harry Potter (The beginning of almost every book.)
Anything by Tamora Pierce (Every book.)
Dragonrider's of Pern (Every book.)

Favorite Novels without info dumps:
Ranger's Apprentice
Percy Jackson
Kate Daniels

blacbird · Dec 24, 2012

Not to infodump.

caw

Wardeth · Dec 25, 2012

I'd say write in what you think is important, omit what you want and then let somone else tell you what they got out of it.

Sydneyd · Dec 25, 2012

To me, providing info in a story is like making a meal. If you put in too much you have dumped the salt into the marinara and people will only say, "Wow, there is a lot of salt in here. I hate this marinara." But if you put in the right amount of salt, oregano, garlic, old bay seasoning, (so I don't actually know what is in marinara, sue me!

don't, really) then people will only say, "This sauce tastes great."

Linda Adams · Dec 25, 2012

I should note though that the titles you listed are all fantasy, and fantasy does have different rules. It isn't like setting a story in a modern day place like Washington, DC, or London where the reader is likely to be familiar with them. Everything has to be built from the ground up, and it does require more information to get the story started. Not to mention if you have something like magic in the story -- something a mainstream novel won't have -- you have to do some work with it to establish it for the reader.

Realistically, there are also some kinds of stories where stopping to do a quick explanation is actually better than trying to show it in a scene where it would become tedious.

That being said, I've read all those authors and I would not call them info dumping. The elements they're bringing in are essential to establishing the different world these characters in. One of the reasons is simply that the story is happening and moving forward at the same time, and we're being given what we need to know to help that along.

Info dumping itself usually means nothing at all is happening while the information is being provided. For example, a writer may start a story by giving all the history of the world and spend the next 10 pages on the history lesson. No story has started, and nothing is happening.

So, really, the only requirements are to keep the story moving forward and don't be boring.

Bufty · Dec 25, 2012

Hi ThatKnight64,

I agree with Linda.

You are overlooking the fact that describing information as being an infodump is not complimentary.

To me, it describes the unnecessary and boring dumping of information on the reader in an uninteresting manner - hence infodump.

Giving the reader information pertinent to the story and doing so in an interesting manner is not infodumping.

So the simple answer for you is - don't infodump.

And in my humble opinion the Harry Potter openings are excellent illustrations of getting necessary backstory across without infodumping.

ThatKnight64 said:
Hello! First off, if there is already a thread about this I apologize and if this is the wrong place for this thread, doubly so.

I've read hundreds of books from Historical to Scifi and I've never minded a few well designed info dumps. A small info dump at the beginning of a series or book. A background history about the world the story takes place in. A brief description of your MC.
None of these things have ever bothered me if they were well designed and tightly written.

I'll admit to setting down a book because of a boring first chapter, or skipping a dull prologue entirely but some of my favorite books have info dumps in them and they seem to sell/attract readers. Spreading out details and slipping them in among the action is all well and good but sometimes it's less memorable for that. If you stick in a line about your MC's flowing black hair, while she's chopping down killer furbies and then ask me what her hair color is at the end of the book I'm probably not going to remember.

This doesn't mean I enjoy reading 2k words worth of info dump in the first chapter but if there is 2k words of info dump paragraphs, spread throughout a 100k long novel I'm not going to mind.

I basically feel that choosing to info dump or not is stylistic thing more than a do or don't.

So, I'm wondering a few things. Do other people mind info dumps? Does anyone else feel they help solidify some important details? How was it decided that info dumps are bad/a no-no? When is an info dump okay? When is an info dump not okay? Is it a matter of writing style?

Just some examples...
Favorite Novels with info dumps:
Harry Potter (The beginning of almost every book.)
Anything by Tamora Pierce (Every book.)
Dragonrider's of Pern (Every book.)

Favorite Novels without info dumps:
Ranger's Apprentice
Percy Jackson
Kate Daniels

Spell-it-out · Dec 25, 2012

If the book has been recommended to me, I will give it a few chapters before I let it go. But, If I stumble across a book and the first few pages are basically setting up the world, info-dumping, what have you, I am gone.

I think by info-dumping from the beginning, you are chiseling down your 'hook', and sure we all need a big hook to grab readers?

brianjanuary · Dec 25, 2012

Sometmes it's necessary to provide information to the reader to illuminate or support the plot--and sometimes the only way to do this is to just lay it out. If possible, take the huge mass of the info and break it up into smaller chunks that can be worked into the story or a conversation. A technique that Dan Brown uses is to have Robert Langdon reflect on his college lectures, remembering what he told his students and their reactions to the information--it's just a way of disguising the fact that he's imparting a load of historical background vital to the understanding of the story.

jaksen · Dec 25, 2012

You can do anything as long as its interesting to read. I read a lot of non-fiction, which is basically one big long infodump. As a result, it doesn't bother me in fiction (I'm used to all that info thrown at me in one giant messy snowball), but again, keep it interesting.

When I write, (mostly short stories), I need to do this as I write a series, so I try to sprinkle it in like using a salt shaker. Don't shake too much and all you'll taste on your fries is salt. Just keep ... it ... interesting.

bearilou · Dec 25, 2012

Done poorly, it's an info-dump. Done well, it's exposition.

ThatKnight64 · Dec 25, 2012

Thanks a bunch for all the replies!

Basically when I think of info dump, I don't think of dropping a ton of 'out of context' info. I think of an info dump, as removing the blind fold from the reader before I kick them into a rabbit hole.

The only times I think I would use an info dump(and I use this term loosely) is at the beginning of a story. Once a story is started there are plenty of other ways to get info across to the reader, flashbacks, pov shifts, internal monologue, etc.

Any info dump I would do, would not be 'pure info' it would be like telling a story.
"There once was a magical walrus..." Blah Blah Blah.
Quirky humor, retelling of legends(real or made up) or a brief recap of events from a previous book are all valid forms of info dumping in my opinion. This is how I would get essential background/relevant info across to my reader if I needed to.

Thanks for the info everyone! Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! And Happy Holidays to the rest!

BBBurke · Dec 25, 2012

ThatKnight64 said:
So, I'm wondering a few things. Do other people mind info dumps? Does anyone else feel they help solidify some important details? How was it decided that info dumps are bad/a no-no? When is an info dump okay? When is an info dump not okay? Is it a matter of writing style?

The question is a bit loaded since you seem to be using the term 'info dump' in a loose way compared to how many of us think of it. Many will say an info dump is bad by definition. We use that term to mean presentating too much information in a non-interesting way. That's bad.

But presenting information is necessary. (As Bearilou says, it's called exposition). The question you have to ask yourself is not 'is it OK to info dump'. The question is 'how do I convey the necessary (and only necessary) information to the reader in a way that is interesting and appealing'.

Most writers are far more interested in their world than the reader is, so we tend to include too much and have trouble seeing that it's information overload. My advice is to try to keep it as minimal as possible and then listen carefully to feedback from others. If the readers refer to it as info dumping then you probably need to cut back.

Reziac · Dec 25, 2012

brianjanuary said:
Sometmes it's necessary to provide information to the reader to illuminate or support the plot--and sometimes the only way to do this is to just lay it out.

Your post generated a new Rule Of Thumb:

If the infodump leaves readers not only illuminated but wanting to know MORE about its topic, then it's a Good Thing. If the reader goes "Yeah, yeah, get on with the story already," then it's a Bad Thing.

Susan Coffin · Dec 25, 2012

I have not read any of the books/authors above, so I can't say one way or the other.

I agree with Linda and Bufy, and love what Bear says:

Done poorly, it's an info-dump. Done well, it's exposition.

Linda Adams · Dec 25, 2012

ThatKnight64 said:
Thanks a bunch for all the replies!

Basically when I think of info dump, I don't think of dropping a ton of 'out of context' info. I think of an info dump, as removing the blind fold from the reader before I kick them into a rabbit hole.

The only times I think I would use an info dump(and I use this term loosely) is at the beginning of a story. Once a story is started there are plenty of other ways to get info across to the reader, flashbacks, pov shifts, internal monologue, etc.

Any info dump I would do, would not be 'pure info' it would be like telling a story.
"There once was a magical walrus..." Blah Blah Blah.
Quirky humor, retelling of legends(real or made up) or a brief recap of events from a previous book are all valid forms of info dumping in my opinion. This is how I would get essential background/relevant info across to my reader if I needed to.

Thanks for the info everyone! Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! And Happy Holidays to the rest!

However, if you're considering writing a fantasy, world building is an essential ingredient that fantasy readers expect and look for. If you avoid necessary world building because it feels "info dumpy" to you, you may have trouble selling the book.

I got into fantasy for different reasons than world building, and frankly, I don't enjoy doing it. I also didn't want to veer in the bad info dump side, and as a result, I did too little. An agent gave me personal comments that said I did not do enough to establish the world. The same came from every single fantasy writer who critiqued the story. It's a genre expectation, just as a "whodunit" needs a killer or a romance needs a happy ending.

Could I have gotten the same information across in a monologue, a flashback, or a change in POV? Absolutely not. Most of that would have been really boring, and possibly turned into an "As you know, Bob" real info dump. Doing it in exposition is not a bad thing, but just a different technique.

blacbird · Dec 25, 2012

Linda Adams said:
I should note though that the titles you listed are all fantasy, and fantasy does have different rules. It isn't like setting a story in a modern day place like Washington, DC, or London where the reader is likely to be familiar with them. Everything has to be built from the ground up, and it does require more information to get the story started.

Not really. Read Ursula Leguin's Earthsea series. You learn what you need to learn of that world within the context of story, when some feature becomes pertinent. I think this assumption, that the reader must have intimate understanding of the fantasy world before the story can get going has killed more fantasy novels than anything else.

caw

rwm4768 · Dec 25, 2012

The key is to do it well. If you convey the information well, no one will care that it's an info dump. This can be tough to do, though.

quicklime · Dec 25, 2012

to the op, words matter--"infodump" is a negative term for unneeded, intrusive, excessive, or otherwise negative exposition. You can't do a "good infodump" any more than you can "caringly molest" or "lovingly hate" or "gently assault" someone. That's not me being pedantic, that's me suggesting you should consider what you really want to get across, and also how you phrase your question, because the answer to "should I infodump" is an automatic "no." You are asking "should i convey information in a poor and clumsy manner?"

It sounds like you're actually asking about something like a prologue, where you get to go "a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" and then lay out your conflict and/or build your world before you begin the story. This can be an infodump or it can be exposition, although I tend to be a fan of starting with story, and feeding the reader bits along the way. As an example I listed a few titles in a similar thread like 5 minutes ago, but taking "I am Legend" or "The Dark Tower" as examples, neither one starts with a road map.

For that matter, Harry Potter doesn't start with a prologue explaining how wizards are found and chosen to attend a special magic school, and there are purebloods who despise human-born wizards, and that there is a sorting hat......all that happens along the ride. The story starts where the actual story starts....with an ordinary boy chosen. What he sees, you see first through his eyes, rather than in a prologue. And the book is probably faster, better, for it.

You can start off handing us everything. I don't usually care for it, but it can be done. That said, you shouldn't "infodump" ever. Make the spoon-feeding work, or give us breadcrumbs to follow throughout the story instead.

phantasy · Dec 25, 2012

quicklime said:
to the op, words matter--"infodump" is a negative term for unneeded, intrusive, excessive, or otherwise negative exposition. You can't do a "good infodump" any more than you can "caringly molest" or "lovingly hate" or "gently assault" someone. That's not me being pedantic, that's me suggesting you should consider what you really want to get across, and also how you phrase your question, because the answer to "should I infodump" is an automatic "no." You are asking "should i convey information in a poor and clumsy manner?"

It sounds like you're actually asking about something like a prologue, where you get to go "a long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" and then lay out your conflict and/or build your world before you begin the story. This can be an infodump or it can be exposition, although I tend to be a fan of starting with story, and feeding the reader bits along the way. As an example I listed a few titles in a similar thread like 5 minutes ago, but taking "I am Legend" or "The Dark Tower" as examples, neither one starts with a road map.

For that matter, Harry Potter doesn't start with a prologue explaining how wizards are found and chosen to attend a special magic school, and there are purebloods who despise human-born wizards, and that there is a sorting hat......all that happens along the ride. The story starts where the actual story starts....with an ordinary boy chosen. What he sees, you see first through his eyes, rather than in a prologue. And the book is probably faster, better, for it.

You can start off handing us everything. I don't usually care for it, but it can be done. That said, you shouldn't "infodump" ever. Make the spoon-feeding work, or give us breadcrumbs to follow throughout the story instead.

This. Your info about the world should be interspersed between setting, character and dialogue. If there's a story to tell, let your characters tell it.

Roxxsmom · Dec 25, 2012

blacbird said:
Not really. Read Ursula Leguin's Earthsea series. You learn what you need to learn of that world within the context of story, when some feature becomes pertinent. I think this assumption, that the reader must have intimate understanding of the fantasy world before the story can get going has killed more fantasy novels than anything else.

caw

I would agree here. I love fantasy but find long, boring prologues that read like history texts dull. Don't get me wrong. I like history. But when I'm in the mood for history, I'll read a history book (and when I do, my motive is learning or understanding something about the real world). When I pick up a novel, I want to get sucked into the characters and their conflicts for a while.

I'm more tolerant of the history text stuff when it appears in an appendix at the end, because if I read the whole novel and fell in love with the world and characters, I may want to learn more about them after the fact.

There are ways to show the reader things about the world or necessary back story without info dumping. Definitely do some research and see how different writers handle this thing. I would argue that the beginning of Harry Potter and the other books you listed are examples of getting back story out there in a way that's entertaining.

blacbird · Dec 25, 2012

quicklime said:
You can start off handing us everything. I don't usually care for it, but it can be done.

I posed this question, straightforwardly, to my daughter, who writes Fantasy fiction, among other things. Her response was instructive:

Try doing this in the Mystery genre.

Now, I know the craft practices in genres differ a bit, but it was an astute observation.

quicklime said:
Make the spoon-feeding work, or give us breadcrumbs to follow throughout the story instead.

Please. Cookie crumbs, at least. Chocolate chip, with macadamia nuts.

caw

ThatKnight64 · Dec 26, 2012

Holy replies, batman!
So basically, getting info across to the reader in a way that works, is not called info dumping. Check.
Doing it in a way that is entertaining, keeps the story moving forward and doesn't feel out of place, is key. Roger.
Research how other authors do it effectively. Will Do.
Thanks for all the replies and clearing up my confusion about the term.

BethS · Dec 26, 2012

Bufty said:
Hi ThatKnight64,

I agree with Linda.

You are overlooking the fact that describing information as being an infodump is not complimentary.

To me, it describes the unnecessary and boring dumping of information on the reader in an uninteresting manner - hence infodump.

Giving the reader information pertinent to the story and doing so in an interesting manner is not infodumping.

So the simple answer for you is - don't infodump.

And in my humble opinion the Harry Potter openings are excellent illustrations of getting necessary backstory across without infodumping.

This.

JoeSmith · Dec 27, 2012

Infodumps are a great way of losing your readers interest. The reader has no way of knowing how important all this information actually is. I'd only include what's relevant to the situation a characters in.

shaldna · Dec 28, 2012

When it comes to info dumping you need to consider WHY you might need to do it - really look at the info you feel you need to tell us and then work out what you actually need to tell us. Is there a way to work that into the story without dumping it in one go? Usually, when you look at it carefully, you'll see that you can work most information in along the way.

To info dump or not to info dump.

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