Ogre vs. Orc?

bluejester12 said:

Are there any basic characteristics that distinguish one from the other? Obviously no two writer necessarily have the same take on a race (Tolkien's elves as opposed to Santa's)

The impression I got somewhere along the way is that ogres are stronger, bigger and less intelligent, but it's only an impression.

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Orcs are Tolkien's invention, inspired by a passing reference in Beowulf to orcneas, a word that is otherwise unattested in Old English.

So I'd skip Orcs altogether and go with ogres, which are safely ancient and mythological. Traditionally ogres are giants and they eat humans.

I've always thought of ogres and trolls being very similar. As stated by Medievalist, Orcs are a Tolkein thing. Goblins might be a better way to go. Tolkein seemed to use the two interchangably at times.

In my novel, I wanted a different name for my brutish, evil warrior hordes so I went with the name "Reavers". Then I rented the movie "Serenity" which called the mindless, brutal minions attacking planets "Reavers". Oh well. Heh.

From Wikipedia.

Orc.

Ogre

Ferret being helpful. (Will Maryn sue for plagiarism?)

IggytheDestroyer said:

I've always thought of ogres and trolls being very similar. As stated by Medievalist, Orcs are a Tolkein thing. Goblins might be a better way to go. Tolkein seemed to use the two interchangably at times.

In my novel, I wanted a different name for my brutish, evil warrior hordes so I went with the name "Reavers". Then I rented the movie "Serenity" which called the mindless, brutal minions attacking planets "Reavers". Oh well. Heh.

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how was it? i've been eying it fot awhile

Jewel101 said:

how was it? i've been eying it fot awhile

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The movie Serenity? I liked it quite a bit. Fun story with some good humor. I didn't watch the series, (and I don't think you had to watch the series to enjoy and understand the movie) but after watching the movie I now want to find and watch the series (I believe it's out on DVD) and then watch the movie again.

As for Ogre vs Orc...yeah, what the others said before. It would be safer to stick with Ogre, or come up with your own 'scary monster-type creature'.

Take care all -

My impression of orcs vs ogres comes from DnD. And there are variations within there as well.

Orcs are typically the foot soldiers of the armies of evil - can be trained, organized, equipped, and led much like humans. They are smarter and larger than the goblins that usually flee from larger humans.

Ogres, OTOH, are bigger, more brutish, and much less civilized than Orcs. Usually they are large humanoid, more solitary and tribal, barbaristic, and just shy of being traditional giants. They are still recruited into the armies of darkness, but filling a role more like (extra) heavy infantry, and in smaller groups or as individuals.

As with anything, MMV.

Its fanatsy. If your writing something about either of these races, make them however you want them to be. You do not necessarily have to follow some cookie cutter image.

My-Immortal said:

The movie Serenity? I liked it quite a bit. Fun story with some good humor. I didn't watch the series, (and I don't think you had to watch the series to enjoy and understand the movie) but after watching the movie I now want to find and watch the series (I believe it's out on DVD) and then watch the movie again.

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I agree. The movie was really good. The characters were interesting. I had no idea it was based on a tv series until I watched the extras on the DVD.

The Scribbler said:

Its fanatsy. If your writing something about either of these races, make them however you want them to be. You do not necessarily have to follow some cookie cutter image.

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I personally like to be as true and accurate to legend as possible. Not necessarily what is happening in fiction, but what historically was believed.

But then I don't write your typical elves battling trolls kind of fantasy. Except for this one story where I have a halfling teenage elf and a wise-cracking unicorn and... um, nevermind.

Shadow_Ferret said:

I personally like to be as true and accurate to legend as possible. Not necessarily what is happening in fiction, but what historically was believed.

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I like to read and write things with a little of the old, and a little of the new.

Some basis on legend, and some unique elements work together to provide some grounding and familiarity, and a sense of mystery and wonder.

Anything too true to legend can tend to be encyclopedic to read about, or even can be debated dpending on source material. Anything too wild or fantastical requires a light touch to describe sufficiently, and a clever mind to create something beleivable.

FREX - GRRM has familiar dragons and Children of the Forrest (more faerie-ish elves), then he has the Others which are meant to be strange and unknown.

Shadow_Ferret said:

I personally like to be as true and accurate to legend as possible. Not necessarily what is happening in fiction, but what historically was believed.

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I just figure why play in somebody elses world when you can create your own, but hey, to each their own.

The Scribbler said:

I just figure why play in somebody elses world when you can create your own, but hey, to each their own.

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Because the readers live in the real world. You could, for example, write your book in your own fictional language that nobody else understands. It would be a fantastic example of complete world immerson; it also would not sell.

The trick to writing believable F/SF is to mix the comfortably familiar with the exotic. Readers tend to want material that reinforces something they already know and adds a new dimension or a new point of view. Writing about elves that are 9 feet tall, have trilateral symmetry, and shoot lasers out of their eyes will alienate readers. It might be "your own world", but it'll suck.

The Scribbler said:

I just figure why play in somebody elses world when you can create your own, but hey, to each their own.

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That's all well and good but when you introduce an elf and then proceed to describe him as short, squat and hairy, I think the readers are going to question if you know what you're talking about.

Oops. I really need to do a more careful reading of posts previous to mine. Sorry, LloydBrown.

LloydBrown said:

Because the readers live in the real world. You could, for example, write your book in your own fictional language that nobody else understands. It would be a fantastic example of complete world immerson; it also would not sell.

The trick to writing believable F/SF is to mix the comfortably familiar with the exotic. Readers tend to want material that reinforces something they already know and adds a new dimension or a new point of view. Writing about elves that are 9 feet tall, have trilateral symmetry, and shoot lasers out of their eyes will alienate readers. It might be "your own world", but it'll suck.

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Not necessarily. Perhaps the elves faced some sort of mutation and the story was about how they evolved into these monsters....and one (the MC) retained enough of his 'elf nature' to try and find a way to alter himself and his entire race back. It would still be his 'own world' but if it was written well, I don't think it would suck.

Just my .02

Shadow_Ferret said:

That's all well and good but when you introduce an elf and then proceed to describe him as short, squat and hairy, I think the readers are going to question if you know what you're talking about.

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True...

LloydBrown said:

Because the readers live in the real world. You could, for example, write your book in your own fictional language that nobody else understands. It would be a fantastic example of complete world immerson; it also would not sell.

The trick to writing believable F/SF is to mix the comfortably familiar with the exotic. Readers tend to want material that reinforces something they already know and adds a new dimension or a new point of view. Writing about elves that are 9 feet tall, have trilateral symmetry, and shoot lasers out of their eyes will alienate readers. It might be "your own world", but it'll suck.

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what the heck does the real world have to do with fanatsy. I think that is completeyly wrong attitude to take. There is no right and wrong when it comes to a fantasy setting. Just because in other books Elves may be tall and fair skinned, does not mean that is how they are.

If your writing a story or novel and you want to use elves, then you can make them however you want. That is the beauty of fantasy. You may have your vision of what a certain race looks like, but I will also have my own vision. There is no right or wrong just different ideas. Thats what keeps this genre fresh.

Im sorry but the trick to writing a good F/Sf story is to actually write a GOOD story. Treating readers like little kids, and bekieveing that they do not have any imagination is just wrong. I'm sorry, but following some cookie cutter formula...thats what would suck.

The Scribbler said:

what the heck does the real world have to do with fanatsy.

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If you really need an answer to this question, I think you're missing something.

You may have your vision of what a certain race looks like, but I will also have my own vision.

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And where do these visions come from? From previously-established images, either in books, movies, or whatever you take you influence from. It's a good bet that BlueJester12's readers picture orcs as Neanderthal-like green savages that eat humans. You're certainly welcome to call them dragons if you like, but your readers will suffer a disconnect, and your work will suffer because of it.

It's like calling the that wooden thing you sit on when you're eating dinner a train. You certainly could. "It's your world", after all. But most readers call that a chair.

It doesn't have anything to do with imagination or cookie-cutters. It's about world-building, verisimilitude and keeping the fourth window unbroken.

Your examples do not make sense. We are not discussing furniture, but the creation of fantasy. You can create any race you so desire. If you choose to use Orcs then you can follow a pattern or you can try and breath new life into an old concept. Its just a difffernt view point.

Look at RA Salvatore. In both his Forgotten Realms and Demon Wars novels, he stepped outside of the norm, and his Elves are nothing like what most people's perceptions of this race is, and yet he has been widely successful with both.

If you lke writing the way you do then keep at it, Im not saying that your wrong. Its that I feel if I keep holding myself back by worrying about world building and keeping windows open then I am limiting myself. Fantasy knows no boundaries, and should be written with that thought in mind.

And as for the "Real World' I am not missing anything, I just find it kind of ridiculous when people try to make that argument because it basically means nothing.

I feel like I agree with both sides here.

You have to give your readers enough credit that they can follow when you stretch (or break) the boundaries of all that has come before.

But you should also not twist something that has strong precedent into another thing entirely - without cause! If you do it, you must explain it, or make it the reason for your story as My-Immortal said with the odd elves. Otherwise the reader will be confused, or feel tricked. As long as the internal consistency exists, maybe those poor elves want to keep their laser eye beams....this is how story ideas get generated.

Well said. I just dont like the idea of limiting myself to one particular standard. Fantasy needs creativity thats what makes it fun.

The Scribbler said:

Look at RA Salvatore. In both his Forgotten Realms and Demon Wars novels, he stepped outside of the norm,

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Except that this observation is entirely wrong. Salvatore's elves are exactly like the drow first described in the D&D adventure D3, The Vault of the Drow. Even most of the family names were nearly 20 years old at the time the novels came out.

Not that Gary Gygax was being horribly creative when he first invented the drow. Evil or dark elves have been a part of myth for as long as the elves themselves. In fact, if you look up elf in the dictionary, the dictionary makes elf synonymous with goblin.

Just for anybody not familiar with Salvatore's work, he didn't create a thing. He's writing in a shared world! He's using typical and recognizable Dungeons and Dragons icons in well-established D&D settings. He chose the elements that he used because they're already player favorites.

Tell you what. I'll find examples to support my claim that good fantasy uses recognizable characters and archetypes, and you can show me an example of popular fantasy that uses substantially nonstandard variations of common fantasy themes and we'll see which setting use has been more successful. Sound fair?

I claim The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter.

Tolkien created virtually nothing, taking it all from Norse, Finnish, and English myth. Nearly all of his character and place-names have historical or mythological origins. You could arguably say that hobbits were original if they weren't just short pre-Industrial English gentry. The quest story with the magical ring was already old, and the return of the king theme is straight Arthurian myth.

Harry Potter has dragons that look like dragons, large-sized giants, griffons, wizards with wands, elves, uses pseudo-Latin for its lingua arcana, trolls straight from Scandinavian myth--no big surprises there. Ooh, a cloak that makes you invisible! Hey, that's a departure. Not!

LloydBrown said:

Except that this observation is entirely wrong. Salvatore's elves are exactly like the drow first described in the D&D adventure D3, The Vault of the Drow. Even most of the family names were nearly 20 years old at the time the novels came out.

Not that Gary Gygax was being horribly creative when he first invented the drow. Evil or dark elves have been a part of myth for as long as the elves themselves. In fact, if you look up elf in the dictionary, the dictionary makes elf synonymous with goblin.

Just for anybody not familiar with Salvatore's work, he didn't create a thing. He's writing in a shared world! He's using typical and recognizable Dungeons and Dragons icons in well-established D&D settings. He chose the elements that he used because they're already player favorites.

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Yes, his Forgotten Realms books are in a shared world and use D&D setting etc, but his Demon Wars series is not - and though it has been years since I've read the DW series, I believe the elves and dwarves (bloody caps?) were not typical of other elf and dwarf examples.

I guess I'm of the opinion that there are traditions and conventions even in fantasy and that an elf is an elf is an elf with minor variations between writers and books. However, as I said previously if you're going to take an elf and describe it like a troll you're going to have problems with readers. Readers make associations and elves are one way and trolls are another.

If you want to deviate 180° from the norm, then make a new name for your creatures, don't use one that already has preconceptions attached to it.

LloydBrown said:

Tell you what. I'll find examples to support my claim that good fantasy uses recognizable characters and archetypes, and you can show me an example of popular fantasy that uses substantially nonstandard variations of common fantasy themes and we'll see which setting use has been more successful. Sound fair?

I claim The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter.

Tolkien created virtually nothing, taking it all from Norse, Finnish, and English myth. Nearly all of his character and place-names have historical or mythological origins. You could arguably say that hobbits were original if they weren't just short pre-Industrial English gentry. The quest story with the magical ring was already old, and the return of the king theme is straight Arthurian myth.

Harry Potter has dragons that look like dragons, large-sized giants, griffons, wizards with wands, elves, uses pseudo-Latin for its lingua arcana, trolls straight from Scandinavian myth--no big surprises there. Ooh, a cloak that makes you invisible! Hey, that's a departure. Not!

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Sound fair? The way you have the 'challenge' worded is not exactly 'fair'. You make the claim that fantasy is ONLY GOOD IF it follows stereotypes and is successful. Are you saying that fantasy cannot be good if it attempts to be original?

By the way, aren't the Harry Potter elves a bit different than traditional Tolkien elves? I don't remember Tolkien's elves disappearing and working as human slaves....