She saw him run into the icy river. . . or shouldn't she. . .

DKM · Dec 17, 2010

Somewhere in a thread a long time ago I remember reading that writers should refrain from using the word: saw. If I remember right, it puts distance btwn you and the reader. It's better if a writer says: She was alarmed; she feared if he kept on running - the icy waters would kill him.

On the other hand I can't help but notice some authors use this word. Maybe they're just limiting its use.

All comments welcome.

maestrowork · Dec 17, 2010

Again, like any "rules" in writing, this belongs to the "it depends" column.

Generally speaking, filtering (he saw, he heard) is unnecessary in limited view point (1st, 3rd limited). We're already in the character's POV. It creates unnecessary distance.

"Unnecessary" is the key word here.

However, sometimes you really need to STRESS the fact that the character saw something -- you want that distance.

"Jack screamed when he saw Mary fell to her death."

Technically speaking, you can write: "Jack screamed when Mary fell to her death." True, and it's more direct. However, in this case, I feel that "he saw" emphasizes on his action and reaction: he saw, and then he screamed. To me it's more dramatic.

Opinions may vary on this matter, but that's my take. Like anything else such as adverbs, use it when it's appropriate for your story. Cut it if it's unnecessary.

Fearfully Yours · Dec 17, 2010

I agree with Maestrowork.

"She saw him run into the icy river. . . " feels disinterested, distant. It feels like the POV character is an observer, and not an active participant in events. You can see where that might be useful, and where it might not be.

happywritermom · Dec 17, 2010

For me, it has more to do with the fact that there are better, more active words. "Saw" is so passive. "Watched as he" implies, to me, a more intense kind of seeing. There are just so many other word choices that contribute to character-building and plot that "saw" seems inadequate most of the time.

quicklime · Dec 17, 2010

as said, it depends. Sometimes, "saw" is best...short, tight sentences can do well with it used on occasion. Here is the problem and why you should not use it:

Noelle watched from a window. She saw a man ont he street below. She saw him run towards the icy river. This was bad. She put a hand to her mouth, and bit at a fingernail as she saw him wade in.

done poorly it becomes a universal descriptor, and then you use it over and over and over. Maybe she did see him run down, and then you change to "he waded in" instead of "she saw him wade in" again....maybe you come back and "she watched in horror", although that's not as nice.

The point is, "saw" is "bad" because if you misuse it then the events that transpire become a laundry list:

she saw X
then she saw Y
saw X approach Y
she saw them walk off

that's not a scene, it is a list.

DKM · Dec 17, 2010

I've noticed that Randy Wayne White uses "saw" in his writing. However, I've just started "The Heat Islands -" and it doesn't look like he overuses it. Nevertheless, I am noticing some other peculiar sentence structures in this novel.

blacbird · Dec 17, 2010

Context matters: If you've been narrating from her point of view, and that is consistently established for the reader, you probably don't need the "She saw" filter. "He ran into the icy river" will be sufficient; the reader can assume "she saw" him do that, from the POV. Other than having her see it, how could it be known and narrated?

This is the most common problem with all "filtering" words in narration. They are often just unnecessary.

CaroGirl · Dec 17, 2010

How close do you want the reader to feel to the action? How immediate do you want it to be?

If you want distance, writing "He saw her fall into the icy water" is far less engaging than writing "She fell into the icy river." If you want the distance because the character is uninterested and unengaged, it works. If you don't want distance, don't use the filter.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 17, 2010

DKM said:
Somewhere in a thread a long time ago I remember reading that writers should refrain from using the word: saw. If I remember right, it puts distance btwn you and the reader. It's better if a writer says: She was alarmed; she feared if he kept on running - the icy waters would kill him.

On the other hand I can't help but notice some authors use this word. Maybe they're just limiting its use.

All comments welcome.

There's nothing wrong with the word "saw", but it's often unnecessary, a filtering word. Filtering is usually bad, no matter the word you use to filter. Instead of "she saw him run into the icy river", you just write "He ran into the icy river."

This is true in first or third person.

leahzero · Dec 17, 2010

Fearfully Yours said:
"She saw him run into the icy river. . . " feels disinterested, distant.

And that may be the mood the writer wants to kindle in the reader. If "she" is too far away to stop "him," you can convey that sense of being remote and helpless by filtering the event through "she saw." It shifts the action from him to her.

It's never "wrong" to use verbs like "saw" deliberately. It's a problem if you use them carelessly and without cause.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 17, 2010

happywritermom said:
For me, it has more to do with the fact that there are better, more active words. "Saw" is so passive. "Watched as he" implies, to me, a more intense kind of seeing. There are just so many other word choices that contribute to character-building and plot that "saw" seems inadequate most of the time.

It's the filtering that gets old very fast. Whether the filtering comes from she saw, she watched, she felt, she heard, etc., it's still filtering, and unnecessary.

Maryn · Dec 17, 2010

I happen to agree with Mr. Ritchie, this one time.

Maryn, destroyer of filters

cwfgal · Dec 17, 2010

"He ran into the icy river."

Unless you are intentionally trying to create distance for some reason.

Beth

AlishaS · Dec 17, 2010

Interesting question with interesting answers.

I recently just scoured my manuscript and took out or reworded sentences that included the word SAW (feel, hear...)

I really think it depends on the style of writing. I've seen those sorts of sentences in "famous" author's novel, but I've also read novel that completely avoid them.

Lots of those words as jamesaritchie mentions are really unnecessary.

truthhurts · Dec 17, 2010

I saw your posts and I learned a lesson. I saw that I need to be careful as to how I describe perception, or nobody will care to see what my character saw when I use saw for what they saw. You see?

Anyway, thanks, this is good advice.

Arch Stanton · Dec 17, 2010

"Saw" is fine. The sequels were horrible.

Darkwing · Dec 17, 2010

I'm guilty of filtering on a massive, habitual scale. I routinely run into phrases like "he could hear" in my writing.

Reading this thread just turned the lightbulb on for me. Know I have an idea of what words I should put on my list for extra scrutiny when it comes time for me to revise.

cwfgal · Dec 18, 2010

Arch Stanton said:
"Saw" is fine. The sequels were horrible.

What "sequels" are horrible, and why?

Beth

_Sian_ · Dec 18, 2010

cwfgal said:
What "sequels" are horrible, and why?

Beth

Saw is a horror movie. I believe Arch was making a funny. I found it amusing

But then again, I'm slightly off kilter.

Regarding the OP: I never thought about it before (definitely will now) but I would like to thank you all for entering into another helpful thread. I really wish I could come up with these questions on my own

(So thanks DKM)

But POV would also matter a lot in this instance, wouldn't it? I mean, if you're writing in omniscient, would filtering words be used more? It seems logical given the explanations above that they would be, but I'm curious what you guys think.

Thanks, Sian

Jamesaritchie · Dec 18, 2010

cwfgal said:
"He ran into the icy river."

Unless you are intentionally trying to create distance for some reason.

Beth

I don't think distance comes into play with filtering.

RJK · Dec 18, 2010

James, would you please fix the link to your blog?

maestrowork · Dec 18, 2010

Filtering is usually unnecessary, but sometimes you really need to stress the "hearing, seeing, feeling." Compare the following:

- Obama dropped the F-bomb.

- Everyone heard Obama drop the F-bomb.

The effects are different. The emphases are different. The subject is not Obama, but "everybody." Of course, you could write "Obama dropped the F-bomb in front of everyone" but the rhythm and effect are different.

Once again, never say never, but you need to know what you're doing. Most often when we see filtering we just know the writers can do better than that.

bearilou · Dec 18, 2010

I wonder if we aren't coming at these type of questions from the wrong angle. The sentence "He saw her run into the icy river." doesn't usually exist in a void.

Did he just see her run and that's it? What else was happening? How was he feeling and reacting? Is the reaction a reasonable response? Why are you, the author, telling me what he saw? Are you going to indicate any reactions to that? If so, is leaving it at 'he saw' a good writing choice?

Just things I think about when we all start arguing whether a sentence is good or bad, right or wrong. Where's the rest of the context to help make the determinations?

editing: Which, I think, is what Maestro and JAR are both saying. At least from my interpretation of their excellent comments.

cwfgal · Dec 18, 2010

sianshan said:
Saw is a horror movie. I believe Arch was making a funny. I found it amusing But then again, I'm slightly off kilter.

Oh, duh (slaps self upside of head). It is funny, now that I understand the comment.

Beth

Plot Device · Dec 20, 2010

Forgive me as I drag this thread back up to the top again. But I want to point out that there is a near-twin of a converation going on over in the "Scriptwriting" subforum right now. And I've always believed that screenwriters can be helped by book-writing discussions, and book writers can be heped by screenwriting discussions.

Here's the title of/link to that other thread:

we see...

And here's the OP:

writeaway said:
I use that a lot. Is that a no-no?

ex.

Thank you

She saw him run into the icy river. . . or shouldn't she. . .

In an interstitial space

Fear the Death Ray

Shining Bright

all out of fucks to give

In an interstitial space

Living the dream

The colors! THE COLORS!

I Tried

On the rocks

Is swimming with creativity frogs

Platypus whisperer

New kid, be gentle!

Darkwing

On the rocks

Ooooh, pretty lights and sirens :D

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

Fear the Death Ray

DenturePunk writer

On the rocks

A woman said to write like a man.