The Philosophy of soul and free will...

JoshW · Jun 2, 2010

I've been sitting on this unfinished science fiction piece for over a year now, and I think it's time to shake off the dust and finish it. The problem is that I'm stuck.

I need the characters to have a brief discussion of philosophy/theology (which will prepare readers for the ending of the story) and at least one of the characters is extremely well read on the subject. They must discuss the connection between free will (or just the will) and the soul.

I've read slightly more philosophy than the average college undergrad (at best). So I'm wondering if there are any works by any philosophers/theologians that I should read/study before attempting to write this (now that I'm out of school for the summer and have a bit more free time). I've done Google searches, but the terms are so vague and disconnected that it's hard to find anything worth my time.

Any suggestions?

RainyDayNinja · Jun 2, 2010

Can you be more specific about what questions you want to address? There's a lot that can be said about free will and the soul, so if you can narrow it down, you won't have to wade through as much information.

scottVee · Jun 2, 2010

I agree with Ninja ... it's a surprisingly vague question about vague abstractions. I don't know which philosophy will break the case for you. OTOH, too much verbiage can easily drag the story into a pit. I think you can probably roleplay it. Step into the characters, say what they would say. You've probably got lots of answers already stored in your head/sponge. That's how brains work. Just have to tap into it.

Ruv Draba · Jun 3, 2010

Yes -- head over to Comparative Religious Philosophy and post your question there. The folks will have a dozen ideas for things to debate about, and can probably sketch arguments for and against too. In fact they may well forget about you as they end up debating it.

Maxx · Jun 3, 2010

JoshW said:
I need the characters to have a brief discussion of philosophy/theology (which will prepare readers for the ending of the story) and at least one of the characters is extremely well read on the subject. They must discuss the connection between free will (or just the will) and the soul.

You could have it go like this:

Machinist who works for an Omnipotent, Omniscient being (MWWFAOO): I'm worried about free will.
Philosophical consultant (PhC): Why is that?
MWWFAOO: More and more in my work lately I've been building machines for deities.
PhC: Machina pro Deus?
MWWFAOO: Exactly, the Pro Deus Machina (PDM)
PhC: Well what exactly is it about the PDM that bothers you?
MWWFAOO: Well, there are some switch settings in the PDM that allow
the purchasing Deity to control how a conscious being makes up its mind.
PhC: Sounds like a fine safety feature.
MWWFAOO:That's what I thought, but try the following thought experiment: Suppose you are a mind that the PDM has convinced that it is in the hands of an insane God.
PhC: Oh, that's just Descartes. Hasn't been a serious problem since the 17th century. You'll be fine. Read Descartes and call me in the morning.

RemusShepherd · Jun 3, 2010

JoshW said:
I've been sitting on this unfinished science fiction piece for over a year now, and I think it's time to shake off the dust and finish it. The problem is that I'm stuck.

I need the characters to have a brief discussion of philosophy/theology (which will prepare readers for the ending of the story) and at least one of the characters is extremely well read on the subject. They must discuss the connection between free will (or just the will) and the soul.

I've read slightly more philosophy than the average college undergrad (at best). So I'm wondering if there are any works by any philosophers/theologians that I should read/study before attempting to write this (now that I'm out of school for the summer and have a bit more free time). I've done Google searches, but the terms are so vague and disconnected that it's hard to find anything worth my time.

Any suggestions?

Hah, hahahaha. Sounds just like my story, which I'm having trouble finishing because I've bitten off more than I can chew.

My advice is to relate it to something within the story. My setting has telepathic aliens. Humans aren't telepathic and can't be sensed telepathically, so the aliens aren't sure that they have free will and souls. That way I have a physical phenomena on which I can hang the debate -- and it gives me a way of solving the debate by tweaking the rules of my universe. You're not going to solve the debate for real, playing by the real universe's rules.

Philosophers you should read include Descartes, Locke, probably Schopenhauer, and if you want to get a modern view then look up Meillassoux (Quentin, not Claude). Good luck!

Maxx · Jun 3, 2010

RemusShepherd said:
My advice is to relate it to something within the story. My setting has telepathic aliens. Humans aren't telepathic and can't be sensed telepathically, so the aliens aren't sure that they have free will and souls. That way I have a physical phenomena on which I can hang the debate -- and it gives me a way of solving the debate by tweaking the rules of my universe. You're not going to solve the debate for real, playing by the real universe's rules.

I'm intrigued with your approach. Having a sort of toy model where at least somebody can verify the freeness of some wills seems quite marvelous.
With the machinist with the PDM toy model that I introduced above in this thread, you could have the PDM switches set to different settings for different people and compare their actions.

defcon6000 · Jun 3, 2010

I personally enjoy Daniel Dennett's Elbow Room. He argues that we don't have free "free will", because past actions and behaviors determine future actions and behaviors. So basically, if you were a Vegan all your life, you wouldn't just wake up one day and eat a steak; even though it's an exercise in free will, it's extremely out of character and then we all have to question your sanity. :tongue

But don't confuse this with fatalism, which is ever so common in Greek tragedies, where no matter what you do, so-and-so will happen. You do have some choices in life (i.e. elbow room). Going back to the Vegan, you can choose to eat tofu or lick a rock...seriously, I don't know what those guys eat, but you get the idea.

JoshW · Jun 3, 2010

Thank you for your replies!

I admit, the original question I wrote was incredibly ambiguous (which is the reason Google won't turn up any valid information, I'm sure.)

So let me explain. There are some branches of Christianity that believe the soul is composed of the mind, the will, and the emotions. The only one of these that I am concerned about in my story is will.

So here is the topic of the discussion:
Are the will and the soul connected? If one has no soul, does he or she have no will? And vice-versa.

The discussion will be relatively short, maybe a page at most, and will be essential to interpreting the ending. I just don't want the characters to come off sounding like philosophy noobs. (I shake my fist at Dostoevsky because he was so damn good at writing these sorts of conversations...)

I have also posted in the Comparative religious philosophy forum, so moderators, feel free to close this thread, or move it, or whatever you do with these sorts of things.

JoshW · Jun 3, 2010

Maxx said:
You could have it go like this:

Machinist who works for an Omnipotent, Omniscient being (MWWFAOO): I'm worried about free will.
Philosophical consultant (PhC): Why is that?
MWWFAOO: More and more in my work lately I've been building machines for deities.
PhC: Machina pro Deus?
MWWFAOO: Exactly, the Pro Deus Machina (PDM)
PhC: Well what exactly is it about the PDM that bothers you?
MWWFAOO: Well, there are some switch settings in the PDM that allow
the purchasing Deity to control how a conscious being makes up its mind.
PhC: Sounds like a fine safety feature.
MWWFAOO:That's what I thought, but try the following thought experiment: Suppose you are a mind that the PDM has convinced that it is in the hands of an insane God.
PhC: Oh, that's just Descartes. Hasn't been a serious problem since the 17th century. You'll be fine. Read Descartes and call me in the morning.

This isn't exactly what I had in mind, but it's an EXCELLENT piece of dialogue! Thanks for sharing.

RainyDayNinja · Jun 3, 2010

As far as I know, there are no religious traditions that claim some people have souls, while other don't. So we can't exactly split them up into experimental and control groups to look for the difference...

My first thought is that you should look into the concept of the Philosophical Zombie. It's a thought experiment concerning a being that responds to stimulus the same way that a normal person would, but in fact does not actually experience anything. I don't know how close that is to what you're looking for, but I think you should be able to get there from that article.

Maxx · Jun 3, 2010

RainyDayNinja said:
As far as I know, there are no religious traditions that claim some people have souls, while other don't. So we can't exactly split them up into experimental and control groups to look for the difference...

Some traditions claim that your soul can leave you. When your soul has been captured or is otherwise detained elsewhere you will be quite ill. If you get a really good Shaman he can go get your soul back.

So while in such traditions all people have souls some of the time, not all people have souls all the time and probably some of the people are temporarily de-soulled some of the time. Which makes it a job for a well-equiped Shaman to go get those souls back.

JoshW · Jun 3, 2010

RainyDayNinja said:
My first thought is that you should look into the concept of the Philosophical Zombie. It's a thought experiment concerning a being that responds to stimulus the same way that a normal person would, but in fact does not actually experience anything. I don't know how close that is to what you're looking for, but I think you should be able to get there from that article.

This is getting pretty close to what I have in mind. It's a great jumping off point. Thank you so much!

JoshW · Jun 3, 2010

Maxx said:
Some traditions claim that your soul can leave you. When your soul has been captured or is otherwise detained elsewhere you will be quite ill. If you get a really good Shaman he can go get your soul back.

So while in such traditions all people have souls some of the time, not all people have souls all the time and probably some of the people are temporarily de-soulled some of the time. Which makes it a job for a well-equiped Shaman to go get those souls back.

So how about removing a person's soul by completely stripping them of their will?

You guys are good at this!

Maxx · Jun 3, 2010

JoshW said:
So how about removing a person's soul by completely stripping them of their will?

You guys are good at this!

Generally, the kind of rather active savages who hired shamanz to go get souls, don't seem to have worried much about willpower per se. They would see that as a person's "strength" or more abstractly "heart" or courage or bravery or even prestige or even name (in the sense of having an entitled name as in "Great Conqueror of the Sea Creatures" or something). Essentially if you suffered loss of strength or prestige your best option was to have a big party and if necessary sacrifice some of your slaves or burn some of your hard-earned boats. This would demonstrate that you could regain your strength and prestige as might killing an enemy and eating his heart or something. Anyway, people who imagined that they had semi-detachable souls, did not distinguish between the will to do things and the ability to do things and would have equated loss of will to loss of social standing.

JoshW · Jun 3, 2010

Maxx said:
Generally, the kind of rather active savages who hired shamanz to go get souls, don't seem to have worried much about willpower per se. They would see that as a person's "strength" or more abstractly "heart" or courage or bravery or even prestige or even name (in the sense of title as in "Great Conqueror of the Sea Creatures" or something. Essentially if you suffered loss of strength or prestige your best option was to have a big party and if necessary sacrifice some of your slaves or burn some of your hard-earned boats. This would demonstrate that you could regain your strength and prestige as might killing an enemy and eating his heart or something. Anyway, people who imagined that they had semi-detachable souls, did not distinguish between the will to do things and the ability to do things and would have equated loss of will to loss of social standing.

How about removal of the soul as an accidental byproduct of a will-altering experiment?

RainyDayNinja · Jun 3, 2010

JoshW said:
How about removal of the soul as an accidental byproduct of a will-altering experiment?

That's an interesting thought. Most Christian theologians would say that original sin corrupts our free will to the point that we can't choose to live a moral life except through the grace of God. But an experiment that tried to eliminate original sin in order to restore perfect, uncorrupted free will could have interesting consequences...

Never mind, you can't have that idea. I call dibs!

veinglory · Jun 3, 2010

IMHO in non-theological philisophical circles I have not see free will and soul connected all that closely. Admittedly I believe in neither but it seems hard to argue that every creature that has deliberate action has a soul (crickets, amoeba?)

Maxx · Jun 3, 2010

JoshW said:
How about removal of the soul as an accidental byproduct of a will-altering experiment?

I tend to agree with the savages on this point in that I think altering the will is equivalent to either empowering a person (giving them strength to do things) or impairing them ( where there is no way, there is no will).

So again, with the primordial savage view, altering or damaging the soul or the will is essentially the same as making somebody very weak and ill.

I suppose you could get a strange effect on the will if you told somebody they had lost all their prestige, but left them in a position of great power.
They might react rather badly.

Smiling Ted · Jun 3, 2010

At the risk of sounding obvious and trite, have you tried Wikipedia?
Seriously.
The Wikipedia article goes from Avicenna to Zoroastrianism, and includes footnotes for further research.

JoshW · Jun 3, 2010

Smiling Ted said:
At the risk of sounding obvious and trite, have you tried Wikipedia?
Seriously.
The Wikipedia article goes from Avicenna to Zoroastrianism, and includes footnotes for further research.

Facepalm....

Yeah, I kind of forgot to look there.
Thanks for bringing it up; there are actually tons of good leads there. Definitely a great place to begin.

geardrops · Jun 3, 2010

JoshW said:
I need the characters to have a brief discussion of philosophy/theology (which will prepare readers for the ending of the story) and at least one of the characters is extremely well read on the subject. They must discuss the connection between free will (or just the will) and the soul.

This sent off a red flag for me. Do you need to have the characters sitting around spouting philosophy? I mean, even if veiled, this gets grating. (Example: I'm a fan of Camus, but his ability to discuss philosophy in his texts between, say, THE PLAGUE and THE FALL is vastly improved. Some of the crap he pulled in THE PLAGUE had me rolling my eyes, saying, Yeah, thanks, Al, we get it.)

Anywhoozle, if you're going to get into Free Will at all, you need to knows your Determinism, Compatibilism, Libertarianism, etc etc etc... Get to know a little quantum physics, chaos theory, etc, as it has an impact on the Free Will discussion. (Seriously.) IMHO knowing the theories will serve you better than knowing individual philosophers.

But you asked for names... well, the first guy I think of when I think of free will is Frankfurt. Outside of that... just about every philosopher has had something to say, and if they didn't say it directly, you can usually apply their philosophy to some free will stance.

JoshW said:
There are some branches of Christianity that believe the soul is composed of the mind, the will, and the emotions. The only one of these that I am concerned about in my story is will.

So here is the topic of the discussion:
Are the will and the soul connected? If one has no soul, does he or she have no will? And vice-versa.

This, of course, presupposes that (a) the soul exists and (b) the soul is the only container for will. Which may be a hard sell to some the skiffy folk...

JoshW said:
Facepalm....

Yeah, I kind of forgot to look there.
Thanks for bringing it up; there are actually tons of good leads there. Definitely a great place to begin.

While you're at it, try googling free will.

veinglory · Jun 3, 2010

If you have defined the soul as being will, the soul is will. Then you decide if will is also soul, or will can have other sources for soulless beings. But this is all fiction rather than philosophy.

JoshW · Jun 3, 2010

dempsey said:
This sent off a red flag for me. Do you need to have the characters sitting around spouting philosophy? I mean, even if veiled, this gets grating.

In order for the ending to make any sort of sense, yes, the characters need to at least bring up a few philosophical ideas. I will keep the discussion very brief--just long enough to get a few seeds floating around in the minds of the readers. I'll also keep the ending open enough to interpretation that (I hope anyway) I won't lose too many people, yet it will still make sense.

Looking into all of this philosophy/theology is probably overkill, since the entire conversation will probably consist of two characters, each with maybe three or four lines of dialogue. But I like to know what I am writing about usually, and thus I'm easily derailed by research projects like this one.

I'll probably just spend a day at the library, taking notes and such. Otherwise, there have been some great links posted already that will help me begin my online research.

Rhys Cordelle · Jun 4, 2010

Speaking from the POV of a non believer, I would not be put off by talk of souls if you're defining how it works in the reality in which your novel is based. If you adhere to a particular religious philosophy, like christianity or whatever, as if it is absolute fact, that's when I get put off. I suspect the same would be true for most readers of fantasy. Even us non believers expect there to be something supernatural going on in a fantasy setting.

So my advice would be to research various philosophical views and then settle on a system that works for the reality you're writing about.

The Philosophy of soul and free will...

JoshW

RainyDayNinja

scottVee

Ruv Draba

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

RemusShepherd

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

defcon6000

JoshW

JoshW

RainyDayNinja

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

JoshW

JoshW

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

JoshW

RainyDayNinja

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

JoshW

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job

veinglory

volitare nequeo

JoshW

Rhys Cordelle