Do your research

Jim McLain

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In two recent movies - "30 Days of Nights" and "Mystery, Alaska" part of the plot line was that people in the Sheriff's office were involved. There are no sheriffs or for that matter counties in Alaska. Alaska is broken up in boroughs - some organized (that is there is they have an actual government type organization) and some disorganized (no government.) The boroughs however do not have police powers and thus no police or sheriffs or anything. There are only city police, state troopers, and in many villages one or two Village Public Safety Officers (VSOPs). The VSOPs are mostly local people who have gone through some special training and who deal with small legal problems until the State troopers can fly or snow machine in and deal with the large problems.

The point is not how the Alaska police are organized but that the writers either did not bother to do their research or did not care. It is very discordant when an obvious mistake like this made. It is also lazy and unprofessional. Just one person's opinion but fact checking seems important to me and when people don't do it it makes suspending my disbelief a bit more difficult.
 

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Yeah, but there's also dramatic licence. Had there not been a sheriff in those instances, the majority of average movie-goers (ie; people who are none the wiser) would have said, "Hey, where's the sheriff?"

In any case, I don't see it as lazy or unprofessional. Most working screenwriters go to extraordinary lengths to research and fact-check the inner workings of the world they're writing. If they or the director or producer decide at some point to streamline the narrative by creating an all-purpose 'sheriff' instead of getting bogged down in the minutiae of how it really works, then that's more likely to be a product of trying to be efficient storytellers than people who don't really give a damn.

I get your point, I think research is absolutely vital to creating an authentic experience but in this day and age, you can't just discount the choices certain scripts and filmmakers make as lazy and unprofessional. You have to consider the audience they're trying to reach and the most streamlined way to communicate the character's experiences.

You're in Alaska, you know how it really works. But chances are if you saw a film based in my neck of the woods (Lake District, UK), you wouldn't bat an eye if the realistic particulars of the local constabulary were mashed to all hell. Or maybe you would, and if you did, more power to you. :)

I think my wider point is not to assume that the writers don't care or didn't conduct the necessary research. Most pro writers do care very deeply and do an inordinate amount of homework but end up having to simplify what they've learned in order to do what they're ultimately paid to do; serve the story, whatever it takes.
 

Shakesbear

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I can see both points of view, but isn't is also that the director of a film has some responsibility? The writer could have spent some time doing research only to have the director ignore it all because it does not fit in with their conception of the whole?
 

Jim McLain

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If anyone ever got it right I might not bristle so much but it seems that no one ever gets it right. It is something like when people in shoot-em-ups use wind up guns that never have to be reloaded. I'm sorry, I think it is laziness not dramatic license. You can write around problems.

In Barrow you could make them city police or make them state troopers. Either one would work just fine. If you wrote about New York City and the police there and said there was only one police precinct in the whole city you would be wrong. It might make it easier on the writer but it would also make the willing suspension of disbelief more difficult for your audience. Your job is not just to write and tell a story but to make it easy on your audience to be engaged in the story and to accept it.

I am sure I get things wrong all of the time. I am just as sure that I spend a huge amount of time fact checking and trying to be sure that the underlying facts in my work is as close as I can make it to the "real" world (if such a thing exists.) As an example, I recently wrote a screen play set in late 15th - early 16th century London. I made sure all of the buildings existed at the time. I made sure that no word spoken by any charecter had come into the lexicon after 1520. I checked to be sure that no food item or spice or utensel came into use after the time period. This despite the fact that food and eating were merely background. I checked with an expert on weapons of the era to make sure that I described and my charecters used only weapons that were period. Since I did a falconry scene, I checked with an expert on falconry to make sure not only that that i used proper terms but that I used the proper birds for the people's political and social stations. I checked into the legal system because there was a question of inheritence and I rewrote one entire section of my screen play because of a very obscure point in British law. It would have been easier to ignore it but it was a major flaw in the script.

This is not to say that I did not take some license with reality. I took out the "thee's" and "thou's" that were in use in the period to make it easier on a modern audience. I used the more modern you and me in an attempt to help broaden my audience and to make them more comfortable with the dialog. I also made some errors and had them pointed out me and made a decision to keep them in for the comfort of my audience. For instance, I cited to the bible and used the post 1550 citation format. i.e. John 12:16. According to a friend who is also a bible history scholar, that form of citation was not in use in 1525. It would have been just John 12 and you would have to dig out the proper line. I thought about it but left it in anyway to make it easier on the audience.

All of this research just about doubled the time it took to write the screen play. I could have slapped it down and said that it was good enough but there is a difference between slapping it down and saying that it was good enough or knowing that I have done as much as I could to make as realistic as I could while keeping it a good story.

I am not saying you cannot mess with reality nor am I saying I am perfect. What I am saying is that when the fix is really easy, and when it is not critical to the story, don't make plot points that are not close to the truth. If it was important to my plot that I understood what the police in your neck of the woods were up to, you can bet I would at least see how the system was organized. And if it was important to have an officer in the UK shoot at someone, I would not assume that the officer on the beat (if that is the term there) would be armed with a pistol or armed at all. You have different rules than we do here and it would be important for me to understand how it works.
 

icerose

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That's funny that you mentioned bullets in shootouts. I actually count bullets to make sure that doesn't happen in my scripts.
 

Mac H.

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It's funny how we humans are.

We can have vampires running around that don't exist in real life, but we get bothered if the film mentions the wrong structure of local government for an area.

I'm not being critical .. I'm the same way. I was watching G.I Joe and all the inane technology and science didn't bother me ... until the good guys were underwater in ridiculously designed submarines and the ice field above them broke ... so the huge sheets of ice came plummeting down towards them.

I felt like leaping up in the cinema and screaming "YOU IDIOTS - ICE FLOATS !"

Invisibility? No problem. Not shooting the guy running around doing kung-fu? No problem. A silly plot about how the hero's ex-fiancé just happens to be a secret agent for the other side? No problem.

But having ice that sinks in water drove me nuts.

In your example, it was also a lost chance to have some local flavour .. a point of differentiation. It would have been more interesting to have the 'sheriff' be someone like a VSOP who had great responsibility but no real power to enforce.

It would have made an interesting character. Going for the familiar might be easier for the audience but it might also be a lost opportunity to give it more 'sticking power' in the audience's mind.

If they'd made the main character a VSOP, any time it was used in a future film the audience would be comparing it to '30 Days'.

Mac
 

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My gut feeling on it (and I could be way off) is that a sheriff has a more audience-friendly, graspable symbolism with the whole cowboys & indians/us vs them kind of vibe. Whatever the reasoning, I'm quite sure the writers (at least) will have been acutely aware of how it really works up there in Alaska but either went with something different for aesthetic reasons or had to defer to somebody else's reasoning.

My biggest problem with 30 Days was the premise itself. The actual science behind the length of days and nights and how those days and nights turn into each other was chewed up and spit out something chronic.

You should write a cop thriller set in Alaska and set the record straight. :)
 

CammyMayHunny

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I hear you, clockwork. One of my old roomies used to watch this Kung Fu Theater on TV, cheap HongKong martial arts stuff dubbed into English. And you'd see them talking about sheriffs and marshalls. In ancient China. I laughed, but when you think about it, what should they have done? Called them by Chinese names for American audiences?

I remember the old Frazier show, which had some pretty great writers, but it was pretending to be in Seattle when actually filmed in L.A. so they'd do these bloopers like pronouncing Lake Chelan as CHEE Lan instead of ShiLAN. If anything, probably increased viewing in Seattle because I'm sure all the newspaper columnists were all over it.

But bottom line, does this mean Sarah Palin was not a county liner, but a buroughcrat?
 

sommemi

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That's funny that you mentioned bullets in shootouts. I actually count bullets to make sure that doesn't happen in my scripts.

OMG that drives me nuts!!! LOL Well, I don't always know how many bullets there SHOULD be, but there's always someone who points it out to me while we're watching a movie and I hate it when the whole realism of something that ISN'T fantasy is broken... lol
 

sommemi

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I felt like leaping up in the cinema and screaming "YOU IDIOTS - ICE FLOATS !"


Mac


OH that kills me! I can't stand it when someone screws up the basic laws of physics in a movie... grant it, if it's something totally 'out there' like some kind of "you can bend the spoon in the matrix" kind of stuff, that's all good and well. But if you make a movie and it's supposed to use realism, then at LEAST obey the laws of physics... seems like a basic education should have prevented errors like that... no offense to the directors. Just that something like that should have been caught and fixed. But I'm SURE the budget prevented them from redoing that scene. :Shrug:

(Although I can't talk - I'm sure there are a billion errors within things I type and I never recognize them cause I've looked at them a million times with my own eyes... I guess that's why you're supposed to have someone ELSE look at it. lol)
 

CammyMayHunny

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I actually count bullets to make sure that doesn't happen in my scripts.

LOL "Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. Well, do ya feel lucky, punk?"
 

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My gut feeling on it (and I could be way off) is that a sheriff has a more audience-friendly, graspable symbolism with the whole cowboys & indians/us vs them kind of vibe. Whatever the reasoning, I'm quite sure the writers (at least) will have been acutely aware of how it really works up there in Alaska but either went with something different for aesthetic reasons or had to defer to somebody else's reasoning.

My biggest problem with 30 Days was the premise itself. The actual science behind the length of days and nights and how those days and nights turn into each other was chewed up and spit out something chronic.

You should write a cop thriller set in Alaska and set the record straight. :)

Agree.

The writer could be a stickler for accuracy, but he doesn't have the final say.

The producer, studio exec, or director could easily step in and say, "People don't get state troopers. They don't know from VSOPS. This is a backwoods town, so they'll be thinking sheriffs. Everybody knows what a sheriff is. Let them google "Alaska" if they want to know how things really work up there. This ain't no documentary."

It's not what Bill Martell would call a script killer note, so if the bosses want them changed to sheriffs, sheriffs they are.
 

Jim McLain

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Again, or it could just be a lazy writer who couldn't be bothered to do their job. I agree that sometimes the director might make a decision to ignore the truth in favor making the audience more comfortable. Then again sometimes it is just a matter of being sloppy. I remember in the movie "The Vikings" there is one scene that if you look (and not very closely) you can see Tony Curtis is wearing his armor and a pair of black Converse All Stars. In another scene Kurt Douglas opens his mouth wide and you can see a bunch of silver fillings in his teeth. Not very realistic for a 10th or 11th century period piece. Thus, sometimes (like in the dance scene in Knight's tale where a clear decision was made to use modern music and dance steps) a choice is made, and other times it is just sloppy work by the director, producer, and/or the writer. A choice is one thing and an error is another. You can justify anything (even the horrible load of crap that you will see if you ever sit through Plan 9 From Outer Space.) I once saw someone try to justify Plan 9 as an absurdist tale and commentary on the science fiction genre. Horse manure. The lead actor (Bella Lagosi) died in the middle of shooting of a horrible piece of schlock and the director substituted his dentist who looked nothing like Lagosi because he didn't want to waste the film.
 

Jim McLain

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Oh I forgot my favorite one. In the movie "Krakatoa: East of Java" all seems fine except that Krakatoa is due west of Java. Check the map. It is to laugh.
 

odocoileus

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Unless you're privy to the details of script revisions, notes given, and writers hired on a project, you have no way of knowing what a particular writer did or didn't do.

The producer(s), director, execs, and stars can and do demand changes in the script to suit their tastes.

Generally speaking, a screenwriter has two jobs: to satisfy the people who are paying her, and to tell a story which captivates the audience. That's it. If the story grabs you, and the stars, director, and the suits are happy with it, the writer has done her job.

As a practical matter, very few audience members are going to care what Alaska LEO's are called. What the audience needs to know, in most cases, is that the characters in question are some flavor of cop.

There's a difference between accuracy in trivial details, on the one hand, and truth, on the other. The most important truth in a screenplay is the truth of the characters and their actions.
 

clockwork

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30 Days was a comic book first, of course. This sheriff thing may have been a remnant from that which the author refused to budge on. Who knows? In any case, I've heard the writers of 30 Days (movie) interviewed and though I can't remember if they mention sheriffs or not, they didn't strike me as lazy. There were a number of factual errors in that film; the actual solar cycle as mentioned upstream, the frequency of flights from Barrow airport, the sheriff. These smack much more of fixing the facts to serve the story than ignorance. Shrug, could be wrong, but I do think most writers are very similar about research: they love it because it's a way to procrastinate. ;)

Then again sometimes it is just a matter of being sloppy. I remember in the movie "The Vikings" there is one scene that if you look (and not very closely) you can see Tony Curtis is wearing his armor and a pair of black Converse All Stars. In another scene Kurt Douglas opens his mouth wide and you can see a bunch of silver fillings in his teeth. Not very realistic for a 10th or 11th century period piece.

Naturally, these sorts of errors have nothing to do with the writer.
 
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DeleyanLee

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In 1999, I published a novel mainly set in 1170s Ireland, right about the time of the Norman Invasion.

The structure for Irish kingship isn't what most people think of when they think of European kingships. There were four levels of "king" in old Ireland, depending on what you were elected king of--Ireland, provinces, what became counties and septs (families).

But I was writing for a modern audience who didn't know jack about how the kingship worked. Even more, how the kingship worked wasn't really relevant to the story itself. Because various characters (some historic, some fictional) had the various ranking of king, I had to make it clear. So I called them High King (actual), King (provincial), Prince (county) and Cheif (septs) despite the fact that the latter two titles never existed in the time period. No one got confused about what man had what rank and how they related to each other. Since it was a novel, I added an author's note explaining what I had done.

The book was reviewed by a professor of Irish history at Trinity College, Dublin. I was complimented on my translation. I took that as a good guideline: Don't bog the story down with unnecessary details, if there's something more ubitious that will work and require no extra explanation.

When I see errors like the one mentioned in the OP--where the uniqueness of the location/time period is sacrificed for a commonality of end-user consumption (that sounded gross, didn't it?)--I have to look at the story as a whole. Would adding that layer of explanation, spending the time needed to make sure the viewer/reader understands the differences--would that have added to the experience of the story?

If so, it's a small problem and I can blame it on laziness on someone's part (I know it's not always the writer--especially with movies. Movies are such a collaboration, it's hard to guess where some mistakes/genius comes from). If the experience and story wouldn't be enhanced by adding the information--the "American default" of a sheriff, for instance--then it's a good choice in this viewer's mind.

Personally, I get a great deal of amusement when movies or books get something so glaringly wrong in a town I know. My favorite is the movie Flashdance from back in the 1980's. It takes place in Pittsburgh, where the heroine works in a steel mill. She bikes everywhere. In many of the shots, she's one place then another and it's all very pretty. But for a biker to get from this place to that place would've required her to bike that cycle up a 15% incline of a staircase. There's no other way there in less than a 40 minute drive. Among other hilarities.

I guess it's all in how you want to look at it.
 

Exir

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I have a WIP set in China. I opt for translations instead of dead-on accuracy.
 

nmstevens

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Yea maybe. But I think somebody just didn't have a clue.

I think that there are movies that have just about gotten it completely "right" -- a lot of the British "working man" war movies, for instance, and something like Apollo 13 comes to mind.

That's just full of highly technical stuff and they were very astute in terms of what and when and how they would explain things to the audience. When something mattered -- like the business of the CO2 building up in the cabin, or the craft is shallowing so they have to fire the LEM to get back on course, they'll cut away to news broadcasts where news anchors are "explaining" to the public just what these various things mean -- and also to the audience.

On the other hand, there are some things that get referred to all the time -- like "stirring the tanks" -- which gets mentioned a couple dozen times -- who stirred the tanks? They told me to stir the tanks, I stirred the tanks. You were the one who stirred the tanks!

They never bother to explain just what the hell it means to stir the tanks or why they need to stir the tanks or what tanks they're stirring.

If you read the books you'd know, but it really couldn't matter less. If you don't know, so what? All that really matters is, they hit a button and something blew up. They didn't know what it was until long after the mission was over, so for the purposes of the movie, it didn't really matter what "stirring the tanks" meant.

What's important though, is that they understood that they could still have everybody talk about it, use the phrase, not explain it -- and it *wouldn't matter.* Nobody would get hung up on what "stirring the tanks" was about.

For that matter, there was a lot of other NASA jargon that was tossed around, all accurate, that wasn't explained, and nobody got hung up on it. Nobody worried about whether they understood every word. What they needed to understand, the writers always made crystal clear.

That was how they made a highly technical story work. It was all pretty much accurate (there was only one technical mistake that I spotted), some of it you understood, some of it you didn't -- but what you needed to understand, they always made crystal clear.

NMS
 

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Until I read this thread, I didn't think suspension of disbelief was important. Now I know that almost nobody can stand to watch any movie or read any book they can't believe in. My grandmother can't stand fantasy creatures like centaurs talking or stuff like Narnia. Twilight of course, is not believable, though to many, many girls it must be.
 

WMcQuaig

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I've always been a believer that if a story is good and captivating, it stands on its own.
 

Jim McLain

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The screen play I wrote that I doubled the time by research took me six weeks for the first draft. That six weeks included the research. I'm not sure how that is procrastination.

As to those that think I am woefully ignorant as to how writing by committe works, you should understand that other than when I am writing screen plays, I am a former attorney and do research and writing for other attorneys. I generally look at the evidence, do the research, and then write motions and appeals. I do not sign the motions, legal memoranda, or the appeals. Once I turn my work over to the attorneys I am done with them. Most times, after a month or so, I have pretty much wiped the arguments out of my memory. Many times, the attorney who has paid me changes what I wrote, adds arguments, deletes arguments, changes the wording, etc. Guess what, I could care less. What I do care about is that when I deliver it to the attorney it is accurate and that he or she can trust what I have written. That is my responsibility and I take it very seriously.

I feel the same way about screen writing. It may be that the director wanted to make audiences feel more comfortable by using sheriffs than by using city police, or state troopers and it may be that the director just trusted the writer to know what he or she was writing about and the writer didn't bother to do the research. My job is to make sure that I have done my research and if the director wants to go another way that's fine. If there is an inconvenient truth in the way of an idea, I change the idea not the truth. That's what I call writing my around a problem. I am responsible for my work and for providing the best script I can and beyond that other people will do what they want. My work is as solid as I can make it and if that makes me a fool, again, so be it.
 

clockwork

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Woah, hang on. Nobody called you woefully ignorant. Or a fool. I really don't see that anywhere and my comment about procrastination was tongue in cheek and not directed at you. This is a nice, normal discussion with people offering opinions that you may or may not agree with. Let's keep it that way.
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