In A Fight for Justice with PA

Jp the Ready Writer · Apr 17, 2009

Greetings everyone! I am a newbie to AW. While surfing the boards I ran across a quote from "Kaji" (forgot the thread) but it is so fitting of what I am going through that I borrowed his line to start a new thread. "Kaji" hope you don't mind.

I signed a contract in December 2008 with PA for my second book. I received the text layout a few days later and have been fighting for justice every since. The space before the lines are 24.95 pt and the font is 12.5 (including the copyright and acknowledgement pages). In some places the font size for titles (i.e. chapter, study guide questions, etc) are as large as 24.5 pt font. Needless to say, the price of my book is listed at $24.95. When I did not get anywhere with "Caleb" of Text Productions, I attempted to call PA to speak with a manager. Of course my calls were intercepted by Customer Service. I requested production of my book cease as I issued (via registered mail) a Cease & Desist Order to Exe. Dir. Miranda Prather. PA persisted with their bully tactics and pushed my book through without my blessings. And of course I never received a reply from Ms. Prather. When I did finally receive emails from the company it was the result of an email to friends, family, and the literary community to look for me on BET Easter Sunday. I also mentioned what was going on with my new book and requested that no one purchse the book. Following that I had some contact with PA staffers who simply identified themselves as . . . "Author Support", "Support", etc.

I have asked that PA reduce the font/spacing between lines and print my book according to "Past Practice" as they did my first book ($16.95) or to be released from my contract. They have refused to do either. But did say later in the same email that if I provided a firm order of 50 books they would reconsider their decision. I have refused to lift one finger to market and sell my book. Though painful . . . I feel that I have to fight for justice with PA for myself, my customers, and indirectly others. Thanks for listening . . . let me know if you are having similar issues.

Kaji · Apr 17, 2009

I don't mind at all. I'm really to hear about your own experience with the ~~publisher, demons, evil sons of...~~ printer, known as PA. I hope everything works out, and now that you have found your way to AW, there is tons of information to help you in the right direction!! Don't give up, and certainly don't let PA step on you. They aren't worth your time or energy.

Cheers!!
-Shane

Ulee_Lhea · Apr 17, 2009

Welcome to AW, JP!

Jp the Ready Writer said:
I have asked that PA reduce the font/spacing between lines and print my book according to "Past Practice" as they did my first book ($16.95) or to be released from my contract. They have refused to do either. But did say later in the same email that if I provided a firm order of 50 books they would reconsider their decision.

My lower jaw hit the keyboard right there. The nerve!

And they pretend like they don't make their $$$ selling to authors . . .

merrihiatt · Apr 17, 2009

Welcome to AW, JP.

I assume the reason they used such a large font was to increase the number of pages, which increases the price. Ack! PA doesn't miss a trick when it comes to putting money in their pockets.

I hope you keep writing and are able to receive the justice you seek.

Mumut · Apr 17, 2009

Welcome and good luck.

Jp the Ready Writer · Apr 18, 2009

I'm not familiar enough with the AW program to excerpt quotes from comments . . .but, to respond to Merrihiatt's comment. I too believe the reason for the increased font/spacing between the lines and their unwillingness to honor a past practice is due to where Publish America would like to have the book priced. Sooooo . . . I did a sampling of their online bookstore and looked at the prices of books in the African American category (one of my demographics). What I found is the following:

Page #s Price
50-100 $16.95
101 - 131 $19.95
132 - 244 $24.95
245+ $29.95

If any of you are like me, I'm sure you can see right off the bat that the increments are terribly skewed.

Disclaimer: This data was taken at random and does not include all categories of books published by Publish America nor was a scientific method of collecting data used.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 18, 2009

...if I provided a firm order of 50 books they would reconsider their decision.

Author: Okay, here's your order for 50 books.

PA: Okay, we've reconsidered. The answer is still 'Nope!' But if you order another fifty copies we'll reconsider again....

Gillhoughly · Apr 18, 2009

I hope this puts them in breach of contract for you, but they're rather good at covering their arses.

Make it clear to them you have no intention of buying or marketing your book. They're just trying to squeeze money out of you.

For a printer, they don't do a good job of giving customer satisfaction.

To learn more about Miranda, please check here. That should give you an idea of what you're facing.

Hope you get your book back.

Arkie · Apr 18, 2009

Jp I have asked that PA reduce the font/spacing between lines and print my book according to "Past Practice" as they did my first book ($16.95) or to be released from my contract. They have refused to do either. But did say later in the same email that if I provided a firm order of 50 books they would reconsider their decision. I have refused to lift one finger to market and sell my book. Though painful . . . I feel that I have to fight for justice with PA for myself said:
It looks as if your first book may have been printed by Lightning Source under the old system. Since they've (PA) gone to doing their own printing, it is possible they may not have the technical capability to comply with your request. Even the purchase of 50 books might not get the solution you're looking for. It does seem you may have had some success with the first book or you would not have gone back to them and they wouldn't have allowed you to come back for seconds.

benbradley · Apr 18, 2009

Gillhoughly said:
I hope this puts them in breach of contract for you, but they're rather good at covering their arses.

Make it clear to them you have no intention of buying or marketing your book. They're just trying to squeeze money out of you.

For a printer, they don't do a good job of giving customer satisfaction.

PA is like the salesmen who sell all kinds of insurance, reverse mortgages and other inappropriate services to senior citizens. They're not about customer satisfaction.

Jp the Ready Writer · Apr 18, 2009

Arkie . . . I may be wrong, but I don't think that changing from Lightening Source to printing themselves is really the issue. This deals with fonts and line spacing (which can be adjusted), nothing as technical as printing styles. In fact, despite my request to decrease the font on one occasion Publish America increased the font size for one of the pages with a title on it to 24.5 pts.

I can not say that I entered this contact with Publish America as blind as I did with my first book. My thought process was to get the book printed, continue with my marketing plan, and stay the hec out of PAs radar. (Keeping in mind the state of our economy.) In working my budget for this project I believed that I could save the money that I would use with another publisher to use towards media kits, flyers, books, promotional items, setting up booksignings, etc to get this one off of the ground. It wasn't at all that the partnership between PA and I was that grand . . . with my company I do my own thing and in the past have left them out of my loop.

That works in my favor in this situation because I did not provide a list of my friends and family nor the newspapers in my area. PA is aware that I do not plan to lift one finger to sell or promote this book as is. Guess it's a chess match at this time.

spike · Apr 18, 2009

Jp the Ready Writer said:
I can not say that I entered this contact with Publish America as blind as I did with my first book. My thought process was to get the book printed, continue with my marketing plan, and stay the hec out of PAs radar. (Keeping in mind the state of our economy.) In working my budget for this project I believed that I could save the money that I would use with another publisher to use towards media kits, flyers, books, promotional items, setting up booksignings, etc to get this one off of the ground. It wasn't at all that the partnership between PA and I was that grand . . . with my company I do my own thing and in the past have left them out of my loop.

Welcome to AW!

If you went with a commercial publisher, they would have paid you an advance and provided marketing for you. With PA, you've already started out in the hole.

Ulee_Lhea · Apr 19, 2009

Jp the Ready Writer said:
In working my budget for this project I believed that I could save the money that I would use with another publisher to use towards media kits, flyers, books, promotional items, setting up booksignings, etc to get this one off of the ground.

There is a widely held misconception (voiced frequently on the PA boards and rarely challenged) that publishing involves money on the author's part.

This is patently UNTRUE! A legitimate publisher pays YOU for the privilege of using your intellectual property. They pay you royalties, and their marketing department sells the book to distributors and wholesalers. Depending on their own budget, they may send you on a book tour or to writing conferences. Regardless, you aren't obligated to spend a dime, even with a relatively small publisher (although some authors choose to do additional marketing on their own).

Only a vanity press (or one in traditional press clothing) would lead you to believe that you have to sink your own money into a project, and that this is normal in publishing.

There are many ex-PA authors who have gotten their book rights back, only to fall into the hands of other publishing scams/incompetents (who could forget Capri publishing? Anyone have the link to that thread?) This is very, very sad, yet not surprising given the miseducation many of them receive on the PAMB and PA websites.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 19, 2009

Capri Publishing

Remember Yog's Law: Money flows toward the author.

Learn it, love it, live it.

Jp the Ready Writer · Apr 20, 2009

Yeah, I'm familiar with how the process of being picked up by a traditional publisher goes and prior to sending my manuscript to Publish America I did submit to large and small publishing houses (15 to be exact) . . . waited 6-8 weeks until most of the replies/rejection letters came back before going to Plan Z (PA).

The focus for me at this point is to sell in bulk in order to be able to report (with my next manuscript submissions) a large number in sells that would catch the attention of the traditional publisher. I may be wrong, but in my mind I'm thinking that if they don't see numbers it doesn't translate into anything worth them really investigating further. That is one reason that it bothers me that the retail price of my book on all of the internet sites is at $24.95.

I got a email last night that said that it was the last time PA was going to offer their 2-for-1 discount. So, by the time my book is complete they'll be back to the 30%, 50%, etc discount. At that point even I could be paying too much for my own book $20 per book. <shaking head>

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2009

Jp the Ready Writer said:
Yeah, I'm familiar with how the process of being picked up by a traditional publisher goes and prior to sending my manuscript to Publish America I did submit to large and small publishing houses (15 to be exact) . . . waited 6-8 weeks until most of the replies/rejection letters came back before going to Plan Z (PA).

You may have rushed things a bit. Most authors I've talked to spent at least a couple of years seeking commercial publication and/or agent representation before either getting a contract offer or considering Plan Z (which is usually self-publishing).

Jp the Ready Writer said:
The focus for me at this point is to sell in bulk in order to be able to report (with my next manuscript submissions) a large number in sells that would catch the attention of the traditional publisher. I may be wrong, but in my mind I'm thinking that if they don't see numbers it doesn't translate into anything worth them really investigating further. That is one reason that it bothers me that the retail price of my book on all of the internet sites is at $24.95.

You may have a hard slog ahead. The minimum copy sales number I've seen consistently cited as being necessary to catch the attention of a large publisher is 5000 copies for non-niche fiction. (For niche fiction, 5000 copies will probably have saturated the market.) Even established small presses with good marketing and distribution in place often don't manage to sell 5000 copies per title, so for an author to achieve this on his own is likely to take a massive amount of work. And, obviously, if you're having to purchase the books from PA to hand-sell, you'll need to be able to invest about a hundred thousand dollars. It'd probably be better to go the true self-publishing route or use a self-pub provider such as Lulu, where at least your per-copy cost will be more in the $4 - $6 range.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 20, 2009

Books that you hand-sell out of the trunk of your car won't show up on any publisher's radar anyway. If you aren't moving them through Ingram and they aren't tracking on Bookscan ... they aren't real.

Beyond that ... the book that you try to sell to a real publisher has to be a good book. No amount of hype will get you past the door if you don't have a good book. And if you do have a good book, no amount of hype is necessary.

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Books that you hand-sell out of the trunk of your car won't show up on any publisher's radar anyway. If you aren't moving them through Ingram and they aren't tracking on Bookscan ... they aren't real.

Oooh, good point! I'd not thought of that.

Jp the Ready Writer · Apr 21, 2009

James and Unimportant . .. Thanks for sharing all of your wonderful advice. I've seen the company Lulu mentioned a few times on this site so I'll certainly look into them. Yeah, I am aware that it takes selling 5,000 or so books to catch the attention of larger publishing houses and my marketing team and I have worked hard to establish such a base of potential buyers (i.e. school districts throughout NC, SC, GA . . . . national television opportunities - was on BET Easter Sunday, national youth organization endorsements, etc). You're right, unless they order through Ingrams I don't know if an accurate count would be documented and a price of $24.95 doesn't help. This is my fear . . . if there are obstacles that they not be from my publisher.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 21, 2009

PA is in the business of putting obstacles in their authors' way, to force you to buy books by the case directly from them.

Don't let them win.

Lulu is also expensive. If you're going to be doing major business, think about Lightning Source. And if you really see your way clear to selling 5,000 copies, consider going offset.

But better than that, really try to get the book published by a commercial publisher. They have expertise, and they have resources, that most authors just don't have.

PVish · Apr 21, 2009

Jp the Ready Writer said:
. . . my marketing team and I have worked hard to establish such a base of potential buyers (i.e. school districts throughout NC, SC, GA . . . . national television opportunities - was on BET Easter Sunday, national youth organization endorsements, etc).

Don't count on schools as potential buyers. Because of the current economy, school districts will be receiving considerably less money than in the past and are making severe cutbacks. Teachers are even being laid off in some states, and some programs have been eliminated.

If your book isn't already on a list of approved textbooks, it is highly unlikely that many—if any—school districts will be able to buy it—even if PA made it easy for them to get it.

Gillhoughly · Apr 21, 2009

Welcome, Jp the Ready Writer!

Jp the Ready Writer said:
I did submit to large and small publishing houses (15 to be exact) . . . waited 6-8 weeks until most of the replies/rejection letters came back

It's part of the publishing process. It took me two years and 2-3 full rewrites + 25 or so rewrites of the first chapter alone before my first book reached a point where its words were worth something to a publisher.

I was on the fast track, too.

When a book is repeatedly rejected the writer needs to figure out why. Having a few beta-readers going over the MS and giving good feedback is what put me through the door. They picked out the weak spots. I fixed them, then an editor at a New York house offered me a multi-book contract.

Sound easy? It wasn't. I worked my behind off to make that book worth buying. That was the longest two years of my life. And while that first book made the rounds I wrote the second and then the third and started the fourth. It kept my head from exploding.

The focus for me at this point is to sell in bulk in order to be able to report (with my next manuscript submissions) a large number in sells that would catch the attention of the traditional publisher.

I think "sells" is now a PA catch phrase for sales. Sometime back a PA writer meant to write "sales" and others picked it up and ran with it, thinking it's publishing jargon!

Please, don't let an editor see "sells" in any cover letter you send!

Unfortunately PA is set up to only sell books to its own writers. Books that you buy and resell are not counted by them as royalty sales, not by PA and not by any legit, advance paying publishing house.

While some PA writers do go on to land contracts with other publishers, their titles with PA do not count as a professional writing credit.

One 500-word piece sold to your local paper counts more with an editor than any number of books placed with PA.

The editors are well aware that PA is a printing mill pretending to be a publisher, and that they accept anything and everything. Should you somehow be able to prove that you've made 5K sales, they will assume you bought those copies yourself. It has happened. Those writers have boxes of unsold books and an empty bank account.

What impresses an editor is GOOD WRITING.

When a story hits my desk I don't care if it's from a New York Times Bestseller with a long track record of success or a complete newbie. I don't look at the name or royalty statements--I look at the writing. If I like it, that's a sale.

I got a email last night that said that it was the last time PA was going to offer their 2-for-1 discount.

For the month of April in the year 2009.

In the month of May they will offer a whole new lure to get you to buy your own book. Some of the writers here have broken away from PA and months later still get weekly e-mails urging them to buy their own books.

I could be paying too much for my own book $20 per book. <shaking head>

Indeed you are. A legit, advance paying publisher GIVES books to its authors. On my last title the UPS man dropped off a case of 24 copies for me to give to friends and family. They arrived the same day the book was released to stores across the country.

PA would never do that, however deserving your title! They will gouge you on the shipping charges, too. Some of past threads and posts cover that topic. It's scary how much they overcharge their writers.

My last book, a trade size paperback of 384 pages, has a list price of 14.99. The Amazon discount puts it at 10.19. Free shipping for orders of 25.00 or more--PA would NEVER match that!

If I want to buy copies of one of my titles to sell through my website, I can call up my publisher and buy as many copies as I like for 40% off the cover price. Another of my publishers gives me a 50% discount.

Since I have a DBA with my online business, those books count as royalty sales, same as if they sold through a bookstore.

I hope you can break away from PA. They're a tar pit to writers.

bettielee · Apr 21, 2009

I am so glad I joined this board. I swear, I learn stuff everyday.

And I want to steal that "No I will not make out with you!" sig! (Sorry, can't let any chance to be a wiseacre pass me by.)

Ulee_Lhea · Apr 22, 2009

Welcome, Bettie!

Billie Madison is a God. I don't care what that says about my intellectual capability.

Jp the Ready Writer · Apr 22, 2009

Thanks everyone! Like Bettie . . . I'm glad that I joined as well!

In A Fight for Justice with PA

Former "Happy-Dammit" Author

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