The Official SF/F Chat Transcript thread

Fenika · Jul 2, 2007

Transcripts for the Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Live Chats can be found here.

If you would like to discuss the chat and see what topics are coming up, please see this thread.

2007

07.19 Guest chat with Steve Sears
Science Fiction and Fantasy combat: weapons, tactics, and how to write about it.

2009

02.05 Plotting the SF/F Novel
Developing Your WIP

02.12 Home away from Home
Writing about life in space ships, space stations, and moon bases

02.19 Sex and Relationships in SFF
Mature themes but otherwise PG

02.26 Making Archetypal SFF Characters and Races Come to Life.
Farmboys Who Must Save The World, Vampires, Wise Old Mentors, Elves, Dragons, and Robots

03.05 Fantasy Wars, Battles, and Combat
With a pinch of SF

03.12 SF hit movies
Serenity, The Fifth Element, and Wall-E. SPOILERS!

03.19 March Book Study Selection Lord of Light

03.26 Creating Political and Social Structures in Science Fiction and Fantasy.

04.02 Worldbuilding - balancing realism with the fantastical

04.09 Inventing new creatures in SF and Fantasy

04.16 Just Outside of SF/F: Interstitial, Slipstream, New Weird, and Magical Realism!

04.23 No chat host available--cancelled.

04.30 Impromptu discussion about world building. No transcript kept, sorry.

05.07 Special Chat with Celina Summers

05.14 Sentience and Intelligence: biological and artificial

05.21
05.28
06.04
06.11
06.25

07.02 Worldbuilding: Religions

Pthom · Jul 10, 2007

Coming Thursday, July 19, 2007
in a
Moderated Chatroom Extravaganza
at
9:00 PM Eastern Time

Steve Sears
Actor, Producer, Writer

who will speak on the topic

Science Fiction and Fantasy combat:
weapons, tactics, and how to write about it

presented by

the Science Fiction and Fantasy Forum

On the advice of a casting director, hopeful actor Steven Sears decided to write a script. One and a half years later, he was on the writing staff of Riptide, a television series for NBC.

Since that entry into the world of Television Writing in 1984, he has gone on to Staff Write, Story Edit and Produce such shows as STINGRAY, THE A-TEAM, JJ STARBUCK, THE HIGHWAYMAN, FATHER DOWLING MYSTERIES, SWAMP THING, and RAVEN.

In addition, he has written for shows as HARDCASTLE & McCORMICK, SUPERBOY, THE HOLLYWOOD DETECTIVE, JESSE HAWKES, HARDBALL, GRANDSLAM, WALKER-TEXAS RANGER, as well as Television Pilots, Features, Interactive and animation. He was the Executive Producer on the feature “The Last Perfect Wave”, the Co-Executive Producer of the hit syndicated series XENA – WARRIOR PRINCESS, and the Co-Creator and Executive Producer of the Columbia/TriStar Television Series SHEENA.

He now acknowledges that he doesn't have time for acting anymore.

However, he has agreed to present a short talk in the #AbsoluteWrite channel of StarChat.net and field questions from the audience. He also indicated that following that, he might enjoy open conversation with the chatters.

Pthom · Jul 20, 2007

Steve Sears Chat Event Transcript.

The following is a transcript of the live chat with Steve Sears held Thursday, July 18, 9 PM EDT. It is edited for clarity, continuity and to omit comings and goings and non-event chatter.

Special Science Fiction and Fantasy Forum chatroom event: Steve Sears talks on Science Fiction and Fantasy combat: weapons, tactics, and how to write about it.

dclary
The original focus of the chat was a continuation of our chat from last week: writing science fiction and/or fantasy battle scenes. Steve Sears’ experiences are mostly from television/script writing, but many of the concepts should carry through to any medium -- you'll just want to consider how his advice applies to your particular milieu. But any good writing question is good

Zoditch
Hello, all. I've got my coffee, the computer connection is in relatively good shape, and I've asked Spielberg to stop calling for the next hour. So I'm all yours.

dclary
I've had the pleasure of getting advice from Steve for several years. He's been a regular contributor to several of the other writing message boards I've frequented, including Done Deal and TVwriter.com. Steve's worked as a writer or producer for Riptide, The A-Team, Hardcastle and McCormick, Xena, Sheena, Superboy, Swamp Thing and probably a dozen other shows I'm forgetting. When we first brought up the idea of writing fantasy battles, I immediately thought about his advice he'd given me on how to put together a low-budget fantasy script I was working on, and wondered if he'd be available to give some more sage advice.

Zoditch
Cool. Well, thanks for having me. Enjoy the buffet.

Peter
We're honored, Steve.

Zoditch
I'm pleased to be here. Thanks for having me.

Peter
Steve, what sort of things are you currently working on?

Zoditch
Well, that's always an interesting question to be asked as I'm always working on something. I think most creative people are in that mode all the time. As far as projects in the works, I have a project called CODE RUNNERS with Artist's Inc. that we've been trying to place as well as a graphic novel being written with Kevin Anderson (writer of all the DUNE sequels) and a project with SONY International which has gone to the international market this week.

That wasn't a project I created, though, I was just asked to produce it. If it goes, it will be a few more months and we'd start production in Feb of next year. Most of my work and notoriety is in the action/adventure realm, so it's more of that.

But even with that, character is always key. That's the most important thing to remember when writing action. It still comes down to character.

Zoditch
No questions yet? Hmmm... I shall have to manufacture something....

ChaosTitan
Oooh, yes, we do. Just give me a tap when you're ready for one. Let's see...

ChaosTitan
dclary asks: You're working on a graphic novel? How does that differ from the other writing you've done? Is it more challenging to have to work with an artist?

Zoditch
So far, the project has been pretty straightforward. It's called STALAG-X and Kevin and I sold it to the Dabel Brothers. However, since Dabel has been bought up by Marvel, there has been a huge delay.

Working with the artist hasn't been a problem because we've only been exchanging galleys at the moment, just sketches.

So we haven't gotten to the point of page by page artwork. If we get past the logjam, then it will become intense. Until then, we're just doing the writing part of it.

ChaosTitan
misslissy asks: this is more of a random question and more of an opinion question for Steve, but I was just wondering, since we were talking about Science Fiction and Fantasy combat and it seems so often that fantasies and science fictions end in some sort of gigantic battle and if he thinks that they are essential to good fantasies and science fictions

Zoditch
Essential? Well, hard to say what is essential and what isn't because rules are broken all the time. The real question is what is most satisfying to the audience. The audience has expectations and if you don't meet them, they feel the lack of resolution and are left wanting.

The "big battle" at the end is a tradition of the basic "good vs. evil" confrontation. It has to happen somehow, but the magnitude can vary. However, as with any resolution, it has to be greater and have greater stakes than any part of the story up till that point.

One of the things I like doing is to set up a direction for the audience to follow so they audience will expect a certain battle at the end... then suddenly shift to the side and give them a resolution for what they thought was a B story, which, in fact, was the A story all along.

Hard to explain that, but the key is that they can't feel robbed in the process. There has to be a resolution and when they look back over the story they might go "Oh, that's what was more important all the time!" I can't say it's easy and I can't say I've succeeded all the time, but I love it when someone does it to me.

ChaosTitan
Peter asks: What about beginning the story in the midst of a battle?

Zoditch
Clarify: Beginning A story in the middle of a battle? Not sure what the question is....

dclary
Meaning... would you start a script or story in the middle of a battle scene?

Zoditch
In other words, are you asking about beginning your script (story) in the middle of a battle?

Peter
Yes. Explosions and mayhem and all as the curtain goes up, as it were.

Zoditch
Ah. Sure. I've done it many times. You come right into it hot and play the battle as the setup for the story. Again, it can't be the ultimate battle. Many action series and movies use that technique.

Especially ones that want to show off the hero in his/her natural environment. It highlights how powerful the bad guy is when there is a setback for the hero.

ChaosTitan
Dawno asks: what SF shows he thinks get the balance between action and character dev. right and why?

Zoditch
Actually, going on with that idea, you can start a story at any place as long as it is interesting and riveting. It has to present a question in the mind of the audience that makes the audience want to know more. You play off it, use that curiosity, and feed it what it needs to get it to ask another question in the mind.

There are several series that can do that. Most of the ones that have existed in the past generally remain in our memory specifically because they were well written characters.

Buffy is a great example. Battlestar Galactica (current) is a good example. And, of course, I'm not going to miss mentioning Xena. The reason our show was on so long and still has rabid fans to this day isn't because Lucy knew how to throw a chakram, it's because of the characters we created.

("we" meaning all of us, staff, crew, actors, directors, writers....)

I tell people when I pitch series that you have to have eye candy to stop the remote. The audience is flipping through and only sex or action will make that remote stop... that's eye candy. BUT what you want is for them to set their VCR's for the next episode. THAT takes characters.

ChaosTitan
NikeeGoddess asks: Why won't they make a Xena movie before Lucy Lawless is too old to play her character?

Zoditch
Complicated answer and I'm not really in the middle of it. I only know what I've heard from Rob Tapert. There has been a discussion over who owned the rights first and foremost. Then there was a discussion over whether it would make any money. And, finally, the discussion over who would play the roles.

As much as Lucy and Renee are THEY Xena and Gabrielle, their names mean very little to the movie-going public. So if two A-List actresses were to play the roles, the studio would be more in favor of it. But Lucy and Renee are not guarantees of income.

Sad but true. They are both amazingly talented.

ChaosTitan
JBI asks: whether it is better, when writing a battle scene, to focus on characters, or to focus on the battle as a whole?

Zoditch
It's the whole song! It reminds me of a question I heard a singer asked "Which is more important, the words or the music?" It's the whole song. Action, for the sake of action, just stands out like a sore thumb. We've all seen it. We roll our eyes and realize it's just there because someone thought it would be cool.

But action has to have a reason, has to have a balance, and has to mean SOMETHING in the development of the story and the characters. So you focus on it all as one piece. In other words, an action sequence has to mean as much to the growth of character and story as, say, a courtroom scene or a romantic dinner or whatever.

If it has no reason, it shouldn't exist. It's just taking up time. EOM

ChaosTitan
Plot_Device asks: I have heard different bits of advice on how to write an action scene. Some say to draw a map of the geographic area (the room or the jungle clearing or the space ship interior, etc) where the action is to take place. A more abstract bit of advice is to look at it as a good new/bad news joke: I was thrown out of the airplane but I had a parachute but the parachute didn’t work, so I resorted to the reserve chute, but the reserve chute ripped. What can YOU tell us?

Zoditch
Well, the key is to present it in such a manner as to give the reader a visual geography, but not to go into so much detail that you are doing paint by numbers. The reader has to have a "feel" for the environment.

This can be done in various ways, but when I do it, I try to make it a part of the story itself, a part of the "prose" within my action descriptions. Instead of, say, the hero finding a knife on the floor right at the right moment, I might describe a character has wielding a knife and as the hero interacts (i.e. hits) the character, I might add "sending the knife to the ground" or something like that. So the knife had a use already but has also been "fixed" in location for future use.

When I write my action I tend to be more detailed about what's happening, but in a prose sense. So I'm able to do those kinds of things. I don't like laundry lists of events and I don't like have to constantly redraw the geography in my mind.

ChaosTitan
Serenity asks: First, welcome and thank you so much for sharing some of your time with us here. My question is: how do you keep the pace and excitement (for lack of a better word) going when writing a battle scene? How do you keep that sense of urgency and danger from becoming stale or boring?

Zoditch
This is a sliding scale with interpretational responses. What's detailed to me might be sparse to others. My style of writing is the William Goldman style (without the talent). So I'm more easy in my action descriptions than, say, Shane Black is. But I don't believe in telling the stunt person or the director exactly how to move.

Now, when I am producing a show, I am able to do as much detail as I like because... well, I'm producing the show. But, even then, I make sure my 2nd unit director understands that I am writing guidelines to give the feeling and mood of the story.

Again, it comes back to it meaning something to the story and characters. I add those things that tell me more about that. The rest I leave to the stunt group. EOM

ChaosTitan
Serenity asks: First, welcome and thank you so much for sharing some of your time with us here. My question is: how do you keep the pace and excitement (for lack of a better word) going when writing a battle scene? How do you keep that sense of urgency and danger from becoming stale or boring?

Zoditch
Hmmm... good question. But I guess I would reply by asking a question such as "how do you keep the sense of urgency from becoming stale in any scene?" Again, there really is no difference in what you are trying to do. You have a story to tell, the action is an important part of that but the action has to serve a purpose.

An action scene has to have just as much friction and conflict as any riveting scene. The problem I see with action scenes is that they either have no purpose (as mentioned) or they don't know when to stop and move on. You accomplish the things you want to accomplish as quickly as possible and move on just as with any other scene.

You get in hot, you leave early, you drag the audience with you. They don't have time to see it as stale or boring if you do it that way. Many times it isn't a writer who is guilty, it's the producer who tells the editor to keep putting in action shots.

ChaosTitan
Redddd asks: "Will they ever make Hardcastle and McCormick available on DVD?"

Zoditch
I think they have, haven't they? I saw a reference to it on IMDB I believe. Oh, boy... another $0.23 residual!

ChaosTitan
Plot_Device asks: Do you find that when you write an action sequence for a script, does it translate into real time? In other words, does a page equal a minute in that context?

Zoditch
NO! And don't ever believe that old saying that one page equals one minute. And don't ever forget that one page equals one minute.

It's a rule of thumb you learn then as soon as you understand it, you discard it. Every person writes differently so it will always vary. And every director who directs your scene will direct it differently. You can't anticipate but, with time, you might be able to estimate. When I was working on Xena we had a huge problem with this. I mean, I wrote a 39 page script one time that was 18 minutes over!!!

Ah. Anyway, what we finally figured out was that certain directors when paired with certain writers equaled long/short episodes. The one page/minute thing is just something that works out on average for an entire script, not for individual pages or scenes.

ChaosTitan
misslissy asks: If you say that you want to accomplish the action as quickly as possible, then what purpose does the action serve at all? Like if you're supposed to have the action over with right away then why put it in there at all?

Zoditch
I didn't say that you had to get it over with right away. Or, at least, that's not what I want to get across. The action has to last exactly the length of time to accomplish its purpose in the story/character arcs. No more, no less.

If you are writing an action script, it's assumed that the action is an essential part of the story and character from the beginning to the end. If so, the action HAS to have a purpose.

Just as if you were writing a romance. The romantic elements; lovemaking, romantic dinners, etc. can't last any shorter or longer than they have to be. To shortchange them or play them longer wouldn't be a good servicing of the story.

ChaosTitan
dclary asks: With the incredible success of Harry Potter in print and on film, and the resurgence of fantasy-novel-based films, do you see an increase in the demand for fantasy television? It's been several years since Xena and Hercules dominated the syndicated market.

Zoditch
We are going through an interesting cycle right now. A trend started four years ago with supernatural/religious/gothic series. The cycle is on the downswing right now and sci-fi/fantasy often gets lumped into that. But for true fantasy shows, it's hard to say where they can find a market. Those shows are still looked down upon by the industry. For all its success, Xena is still considered a silly show by the elites. So the realm of fantasy used to be syndication, where the eye candy was so intense, an audience was easy to find (and the successful shows kept the audience with.... say it... character!). But syndication has disappeared. There is no read market for it.

The SONY International thing I mentioned is actually an attempt to recreate syndication using an international model. IT will be interesting if it turns out.

But fantasy series can also be hugely expensive (at least for networks) so they aren't as likely to do it. Add to that that precious few people can actually pull it off.

ChaosTitan
Plot_Device asks: What action scenes from the works of other films/TV shows do you stand in professional awe of?

Zoditch
Hmmm.... another good question and I wish I had more time to think on it. Back in the eighties, the action trend was big explosions and the like. Several series really did that kind of action well. Not just A-Team, but Airwolf and other series like that. But these days, I tend to look at series that give me the feeling of unease that I would have if I were involved in the action. Battlestar, again, is fairly good though it is highly CGI. But Band of Brothers really rocked me. So did certain action scenes in Deadwood, of all series. Mostly, again, because of how they played within the story.

I'll have to let that question ruminate for a few minutes... .

Peter
It is nearly the end of the hour. Time passes fast when you're having fun, eh? We have time before the end of the hour for one more, but have two more in queue. Steve, what is your feeling, would you like to continue, or open the room to general chat, or what?

Zoditch
Go for. I'm here. Ask away, I shall refill the coffee.

Peter
Very well, then. Keep 'em coming in to ChaosTitan folks

ChaosTitan
Flu asks: You've worked both as a writer and as a producer for TV-shows. How do those differ in relation to the stories? (or perhaps: how much input does the writer have?)

Zoditch
On my series, the writer has huge input. When I broke into the business (which was when "The Flintstones" was a reality series) I managed to get with a group of people who had me sitting in on editing the first day. They were determined to have me involved in every detail so that I could learn. The more you know about what everyone else does, the better an asset you are for the company. And the better writer you'll be.

Now, the difference is that a writer doesn't have to wear a producer's hat. So the writer can sit there and dream up incredible worlds. The producer has to say "We can't afford that" or "the studio won't allow that" or, even, "the actress is a member of PETA and won't wear that".

The hard thing is to take off your writer's hat and put on the producer's hat. IF you can learn to do that, you will work for a long time. Because you will show yourself to be a production friendly writer.

For example, one of my first days in the editing room at Stephen J. Cannell was on one of my shows. My writing partner and I (I had one back then) were watching the producers work with the editor.

At a certain point, there was a scene that went by and the editor stopped the reel. A moment of silence until I said "Well, that scene sucked! Can we cut it?" The producers breathed a sigh of relief: yes, it sucked, but how to you tell a writer that their baby had to die? Fortunately, I took off the writer's hat and looked at it from an audience point of view. I didn't know it, but my stock went way up after that. EOM

ChaosTitan
Peter asks: No one's mentioned my favorite battle show: "Space: Above and Beyond." Which had elements of Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" in that the battles were for the most part, remote, off camera. What's your feeling about treating wars that way?

Zoditch
I happened to be a fan of S:A&B. And I agree, but that's a chancy thing to do because it might be perceived as budget problems instead of creativity. If it can be done in such a way that the audience doesn't miss it, fantastic. It's hard to do. You don't have to see the bomb under the chair to feel the bomb is there. Just makes it easier if you do.

ChaosTitan
terri8104 asks: Who do you idolize and why?

Zoditch
I don't because I'm not wired that way.

Truly, I admire several people, but I don't idolize anyone. I've not been in awe of anyone because I wasn't raised to be. I respect many people because we all deserve respect, but I don't believe in raising someone up over others. We're all too human to allow that.

ChaosTitan
Peter asks: In writing a battle scene, how much detail should you include before the thing becomes one giant info dump? And how is it different writing a battle between two giant armies vs. a skirmish between just a few combatants?

Zoditch
I think the first part of the question was answered a little earlier. re: detail. It becomes an info dump when your reader is starting to gloss over the details looking for substance. Give the amount you need sparingly and entertainingly, but don't give a laundry list.

As to writing about armies vs. a skirmish, it still comes down to the people involved. Hard to answer, but armies are masses of people. You can't treat them as individuals, so you have to simplify them. Usually, this is done by concentrating on the individual soldiers or the commanders. When I think of writing "armies" I think of writing tactics. Military tactics. But WHY those particular tactics are used depends on the people in command; the human character involved. And the reaction to the tactics or reactions to the results of them are with the individual soldier, is again character.

It's actually a good question, though, because in my scripts, when I write the tactics, I AM more specific and more "laundry list" because I am, in effect, describing geography and the items within it. But I only use it sparingly, enough to impact my characters so the reader can understand them and the story better.

Good question.

ChaosTitan
terri8104 asks: If you had one wish, what would it be?

Zoditch
Ah, the old wish question. Of course, the obvious is to wish for more wishes. But this will be frustrating, I know, but again, I'm not wired to think that way. Wishing, to me, is hoping for those things you have already admitted are impossible. It doesn't serve a purpose for me.

Yeah, yeah, philosophic b.s. I know. I have a strange mindset at times....

ChaosTitan
A final question for you Zoditch... The room wants to know: How did you make your big break with "Riptide?"

Zoditch
I slept my way in. What, there're other ways?

Okay..... serious answer to follow....

Damn... it's not a short one. Let me see if I can make it simple. Bare with me here...

I never wanted to be a writer. I never trained for it. To this day, I've never read a book on it and I've never been to a class in it except ones I taught. That's just to lay the groundwork of where I came from.

I was an actor. A degree in theatre. I didn't even know you could make a living as a writer. As an actor, I got to know casting directors and would ask them what they wanted to see in auditions.

They were tired of seeing Neil Simon, so they said original material. I figured I would start writing my own audition scenes. After a while, I saw my scenes being performed by other actors in other showcases.

One casting director (who had just seen five of my scenes) asked me if I had considered writing as a career. I said "Absolutely not!" I was an Actor! But she planted a seed in me. So that night I wrote the worst script ever written.

It took me two days to write it and is sucked. But I loved writing it! I couldn't believe how much fun it was. So I decided I might try writing another. At that time, I was working at a restaurant (duh!) and met Burt Pearl.

Burt and I became best friends and decided to try writing together. We got scripts from Universal and I began breaking them down, outlining them to figure out HOW they worked. At the same time, Burt and I started writing spec scripts together.

Again, neither one of us thinking about this being a career.

Okay, a new series had just hit the air called RIPTIDE. I saw the pilot and I liked it. So I called over to Stephen J. Cannell productions to ask if they had a Writer's Guide. I was a pretty friendly guy back then so I got into a conversation with the secretary and she suggested that we send two samples of our work to the producers as they were looking for writers. So, we called an agent who said he would take ten percent of anything we got and had him send them over.

A month later, we got a call to meet the producers. We went in with five ideas. One of the ideas was interesting to them so we were asked to come back with more detail.

A week later, we went back and repitched. They gave us the assignment. We were thrilled and confused. Because now we had to write the darn thing.

When we turned in the first draft, they loved it and, off that first draft, hired as staff writers.

Keep in mind we didn't even know how much you got paid for this stuff. Burt and I worked at Cannell for the next three or four years, splitting up our partnership to become individual writers.

And.. the kicker to this? From the moment that the casting director suggested I try writing a script to the moment I walked into my own office was only thirteen months.

And that... is the story of Steven.

Peter
Steve, thank you very much for taking the time to stop by our little chatroom. It is great to have someone of your expertise share it with us. The chatroom is open now, and the buffet table, and you can mingle with chatters. Thanks again, Steve. It was truly wonderful to have you with us.

dclary
(must interject: My favorite riptide moment ever was when The Boz had to infiltrate the phone company's computer center. Nick and Cody were all "How will you get in?" And he's all "That's the easy part." Cut to Boz standing in line with 100 other nerdly men who look exactly like him, white shirt, pocket protector, general air of defeat and CRT-monitor radiation poisoning.)

Zoditch
heh heh.... love that series....

dclary
Thanks, Zod!

Zoditch
Sure, no problem.

ChaosTitan
It was a terrific chat, thank you so much.

Zoditch
You's most welcome.

Plot_Device
Hey, Steve--where does your screen name come from?

dclary
I loved the line about eye candy being what makes the remote stop, and character being what makes you set the VCR for the next episode. That's so true

Zoditch
ZODITCH is a character in Ronald Ribman's play Journey of the Fifth Horse (the last major stage production I acted in)

Plot_Device
ah thanks!

dclary
I've got other commitments I've got to get to, but I just want to thank you again for stopping by, Zod!

ChaosTitan
Oh yes, thank you to everyone who posed questions!! !

Zoditch
Thanks for having me, everyone. Some really good questions,. by the way.

Zoditch
Better than the old "Who’s the most famous person you've slept with" question.....

ChaosTitan
Well....?

Don't answer that.

Zoditch
Me.

CathS
LOL. You get that one a lot?

ChaosTitan
LOL

ChaosTitan
Great answer.

Zoditch
Yeah, I actually do.

Zoditch
I, too, am gone. Good luck to everyone! Keep writing!

JennaGlatzer · Jul 20, 2007

Awesome job, Dclary, Pthom, Chaos, Fingers, Cath, and all else who helped arrange this and ask great questions.

Fenika · Feb 6, 2009

Transcript from February 5, 2009.

Topic: Plotting the SF/F Novel: Developing Your WIP

A special thank you to Siren Six and Kitty Pride for helping plan and run this week’s chat. I would also like to thank Pthom, Jed, and the rest of the mod-squad for their support.

The chat went from plotting to outlining to editing to character development and so on.

Also, here is the requested link for Seven Basic Plots

----------

@BahamutBrat
Welcome to the re-first SFF chat

@BahamutBrat
I'd like to start with a quote and we'll see where we go from there

@BahamutBrat A story is about an issue of human need. A plot is what makes that issue acted out to resolution and fulfillment dramatic. –Bill Johnson

HamsterOfDoom The definition of "need" is so flexible

@BahamutBrat Character desires and obstacles to those desires are very important when planning a novel

+sirensix I like the classic: "The king died and the queen died" is a story. "The king died and the queen died of grief" is a plot.

khajidu yeah pretty much

TheIT As long as the character needs something and acts, it becomes plot

@BahamutBrat Yeah, the character can't just bump around between events

+sirensix Another way to look at plot is: cause and effect.

Horserider that's going to be a pretty short story siren

TheIT Cause, effect, and obstacles

khajidu yeah

HamsterOfDoom Yes. Tension must exist, and suspense, else it's just a bunch of blahblahblah

+sirensix Obstacles are what make it an INTERESTING plot. Heheh.

Horserider or that Freyteg chart thingy they show in schools.

khajidu yeah

TheIT Freytag?

*Note: Freytag’s Triangle http://www.englishbiz.co.uk/extras/freytagtriangle.htm

Horserider without obstacles the rising action would be kind of boring

@BahamutBrat And obstacles allow for character development

Horserider yeah that IT

Kaiser-Kun also choices.

TheIT No need for a character to change if everything's already working

+KittyPryde one thing i struggle with as far as character need, is combining an immediate need (like not being eaten) with an interior need (like, need for love or need for confidence)

TheIT Interior need affects how a char will react to an immediate need

Horserider if you're worrying about not being eaten then you're probably not thinking about love

khajidu lol

Tig heh

+sirensix Not every scene needs to have both, so long as both thread through the story as a whole.

@BahamutBrat Don't get eaten so you can make love later?

+sirensix Who here is familiar with the "scene and sequel" approach to plotting?

TheIT But you might sacrifice yourself to save the one you love

Tig unless someone saves you

HamsterOfDoom Yes, let's further redefine that to immediate need and ALL-CONSUMING immediate need

+KittyPryde true, but the char may need to find love/other feelings by the end of the book

TheIT Yes to scene/sequel. Jack Bickham & Jim Butcher

khajidu scene and sequel i've seen it somewhere

HamsterOfDoom I haven't

+KittyPryde and letting the immediate need lead to the interior need can be tricky

Kazel this is the scene sequel described by the guy who does the snowflake method of plotting?

TheIT Quick def: scene is where something happens. Sequel is how the char deals with it later.

HamsterOfDoom But I've been called "organic", so feel free to not explain further. That's what Google is for

khajidu yeah kazel that's where i saw this

+KittyPryde Scene is killing evil doods. Sequel is saying, holy cow! i almost died! Now i have to be on my guard because there are evil doods around!

TheIT Jim Butcher talks about scene/sequel on his LiveJournal. I think he learned it from Jack Bickham

@BahamutBrat A scene is full of action, where a sequel (simply the next scene) is full of reaction. It's downtime for your character

Kaiser-Kun and that cycle repeats during the entire story

@BahamutBrat yep

TheIT Sequel affects the emotional tone of the piece

TheIT Romance is mostly sequel

+KittyPryde Yeah, Butcher says using sequels is what makes his Harry Dresden books so enjoyable

+sirensix Scenes and sequels are links in the chain of cause and effect.

TheIT Thriller is mostly scene

Kazel "Scene has the following three-part pattern: Goal, Conflict, Disaster. Sequel has the following three-part pattern: Reaction, Dilemma, Decision."

@BahamutBrat That's it

+sirensix Scene: the character has a goal, an obstacle gets in his way, he goes for the goal anyway, and some sort of outcome results.

@BahamutBrat so the sequel still advances the plot

Kazel from http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/art/scene.php

+sirensix That outcome causes him to react emotionally/mentally and make the decision which becomes the goal of the next scene. This process is the sequel.

+KittyPryde and sequel gives the reader a chance to catch their breath

TheIT Sequel should advance the story. Might not be same as plot.

@BahamutBrat Some people stick very strictly to the Scene-Sequel method when plotting their novel

Kaiser-Kun I think everything a plot is, is change.

khajidu wow i follow the "start writing" livejournal community and everything from the snowflake guy ends up there

+sirensix So, for those unfamiliar I'll do a quick example, again, very simplified, not an exciting or well written one.

Kaiser-Kun I've never seen a story where, at the end the character returns to his previous life, being the same person he was at the beginning

khajidu lol

HamsterOfDoom I'm not a plotter. I'm a premiser-with-details, I think you could call it.

Horserider that would be unrealistic kaiser

+sirensix Scene: Tommy wants a cookie. His mother is standing by the cookie jar saying no. He begs and pleads. Outcome: Mom says no and sends him to his room.

TheIT MCs change. Secondary characters might not.

HamsterOfDoom Kaiser - Mary Poppins

Kaiser-Kun huh?

+sirensix Sequel: Tommy fumes at the unfairness of his Mom. Dad is so much nicer. He decides he'll wait for dad to come home and ask HIM for a cookie.

TheIT But Mary Poppins was already perfect. She said so herself.

HamsterOfDoom Mary Poppins is a story (and character) where at the end she returns to her previous life, the same as she was at the beginning

Horserider Dad says no. Tommy gets mad, waits until everyone is gone and steals cookie

+sirensix Mary Poppins isn't really the main character in that story - she is a catalyst.

+KittyPryde but in mary poppins, the kids become good little citizens

Kazel I think that with Mary Poppins, she wasn't really the focus of the story, the kids were. Thats why the movie ends when the kids change, she was just a plot device.

+sirensix If I remember the movie correctly.

TheIT Yep

HamsterOfDoom I always thought the story was truly about Mr Banks, since he was the focus of the most character arc

Skyrish rather like Peter Pan

TheIT All scenes have a question associated with them. Scene outcomes = yes, yes but, no, no but

+KittyPryde didn't MP also soften up a lot, with regards to the chimney sweep guy?

Kaiser-Kun I'm making an experiment by using sort of metaphorical (sp) characters. One of them represents change

Tig Ferris Bueller character didn't really change by the end but his best friend

+sirensix Yes, just because a story is named after a character that does not mean that character is the protagonist. Moby Dick being a good example. ;-)

Sage13 Mr. Banks definitely had the most change

TheIT Just like the POV character isn't necessarily the MC

@BahamutBrat Going to the cookie example, as Six and Horse pointed out, writers have choices. How do our characters act? What do they do to achieve their goals. That has a big effect on the direction of the story

+sirensix One of the problems in science fiction and fantasy plotting is that people often get so wrapped up in creating and showing off the world that they forget to drive the story.

Kaiser-Kun I don't know if I choose how my characters will act. I simply put the events and they react accordingly

TheIT Just how far is Tommy going to go to get his cookie?

+KittyPryde that's true siren

Pamster yeah that is so true

Kaiser-Kun yeah! whatcha gonna do now, tommy?

+KittyPryde or a character's awesum powers or prophecy overshadow her personality

+sirensix No matter how alien or strange a world is, what keeps the story moving is always your protagonist's main goal, and the small goals that he/she has to achieve to get there.

TheIT If a character doesn't need anything, they're window dressing

HamsterOfDoom Siren, that's a great summation of my thoughts on harry potter

khajidu steal the cookies and make the box fall down

@BahamutBrat And, going further, how do SFF writers keep the spec elements as part of the plot/story, rather than as background?

@BahamutBrat I've read a few books that would have been much better stripped of all fantastical elements

Tig make it look like the dog took the cookies?

+sirensix Haha, re: the cookie, obviously the goal of the next scene would be, "Get DAD to give me a cookie." You can see that by the decision he makes at hte end of the sequel, right?

Tig sprinkle crumbs to his bed

khajidu lol

TheIT The spec elements ought to be involved in the goal, the method to reach the goal, or part of the obstacles

Kaiser-Kun or all three

Kazel talking about story versus plot, I've heard it recommended to cut any scene that doesn't advance the plot, what about advancing the story? Is the plot the conflict and the story the character growth?

HamsterOfDoom IMHO, if it doesn't advance the plot then it isn't necessary

+KittyPryde scenes should develop the plot, theme, or characters, preferably all 3

+KittyPryde but scenes that develop the story can suck

TheIT Sometimes it's character development. That's where sequel comes into play

khajidu well in my story there are sentient sailing ships and some of them are my characters

+sirensix There are a lot of different ways to define story vs. plot - it's easy to get caught up in semantics on that one.

+KittyPryde such as the 3 page backstory prologue--develops the story but not the plot. so kill it!

Kazel agreed!

@BahamutBrat Agreed!

khajidu weave it in the main story

TheIT UJ's mantra: everything should either advance plot, reveal character, or support theme

+KittyPryde right IT

Kaiser-Kun there's no "filling chapters".

TheIT Everything's interconnected.

Kaiser-Kun every chapter must add something, either a new question, facet, or event.

khajidu yeah

+sirensix Character, plot, and theme, should be interwoven in such a way that they can't exist without the other. Your plot should ONLY work with those specific characters. And it should also change and shape those characters.

@BahamutBrat I like to think of writing as weaving a story

TheIT Me, too

@BahamutBrat something I got from Guy Gavriel Kay

Kaiser-Kun I was thinking today that I couldn't have asked for a better MC for my story

@BahamutBrat So many little threads and big threads, brought together again and again

TheIT Pull one thread, everything else unravels

Tig I think of it as layering too

Kaiser-Kun then I realized he's the best MC because he was created for that story

+KittyPryde makes me think of the Furies weaving the tapestry of the world, one thread for each person

TheIT With scissors

Kaiser-Kun or a scythe for the war

TheIT Fates, not furies

+KittyPryde yeah, watch out for the scissors

khajidu i created the characters first and the story developed almost by itself...

TheIT Same here, khajidu

Kazel thats what I am working on

HamsterOfDoom Same. I did the characters and premise, the story just comes as I go

Kaiser-Kun I created the ending first. Then the story, then the magic, and modelled the characters after it. heh

+sirensix Yes, sometimes the characters come first in your mind and sometimes the plot, but the characters shouldn't be developed just "for their own sake" but because their complexity is actually IMPORTANT to the story.

TheIT I came up with characters I wanted to tell stories about, then came up with the story

+KittyPryde TheIT, Neil Gaiman calls em the Furies. or the Kindly Ones

+sirensix Don't spend a lot of time showing everyone how generous your character is, for example, if her generosity doesn't matter at all to the plot.

Kaiser-Kun or how beautiful.

Horserider i created the middle of the story first and then started from the beginning. the characters just sort of...were made for those parts

+sirensix Heh.

TheIT I'm thinking Greek mythology. Fates controlled life, Furies were retribution

+KittyPryde ahhh

Kaiser-Kun what we were talking about is actually a major theme of my story. Everything is interrelated and exists for a greater purpose

Kazel TheIT is right as far as greek mythology goes, different creatures

+sirensix Whether that is true of RL or not, it is definitely true of fiction.

@BahamutBrat That's a good theme, Kaiser

WadeTMarkham3 I'm very linear writer.

Kaiser-Kun hehe. thanks

TheIT I leapfrog as a writer

+sirensix So to return to the main topic of plotting SF/F, what challenges do you as writers run into when you are trying to construct a plot?

Horserider writer's block

RoxanneLange Wade says I'm an organic writer.

HamsterOfDoom Organic writer

Kaiser-Kun the most difficult part for me right now is, filling the gaps between the important events

@BahamutBrat putting in enough 'sequel' scenes

+sirensix Horserider, can you be more specific about the kind of block you run into? Just not having an idea of what should happen next? Or not being in the mood to write? Hehe.

TheIT Figuring out theme

@BahamutBrat I tend to write action action action, with a little reaction

khajidu well i usually have the first half, but the second half is often fuzzy for me

Horserider both siren

+KittyPryde i struggle with understanding character motivations for things they do

WadeTMarkham3 My problem is my plots like to go on tangents.

+sirensix That's not necessarily a bad thing, Bahamut - some writers make a good living that way.

HamsterOfDoom My problems arise when I run out of tension, don't know how to get from point C to point E, or have trouble fleshing out my premise

RoxanneLange I'm having a writer's block about not knowing what to do next in my story.

TheIT "Suddenly, a naked woman screamed!"

Kaiser-Kun I don't think I'll have trouble with Writer's Block here. I've been cooking it for at least three years, and a particular idea comes from a nightmare I had at six

deadbeat there's no such thing as writer's block

HamsterOfDoom provocative

deadbeat there's just bad writing, comes from having a bad day

HamsterOfDoom IT, lol

@BahamutBrat Part of my issue though is I keep my characters' thoughts to myself. I forget to share with the reader

deadbeat or from ignoring your 'muse'

+sirensix The way I've cured the "I dont' know what should happen next" block is by plotting out the whole story in advance via scenes and sequels. I do an index card for literally every scene and sequel in the story.

Kaiser-Kun I think that "writer's block" is a way of saying "needs more time in the oven"

RoxanneLange deadbeat, I'm seriously not sure where to go with my story. That in and of itself is writer's block.

+sirensix So before I sit down to write word one, I know exactly what will happen from beginning to end. But some people may not want to plan that minutely.

+KittyPryde that's hard core, siren!

Kazel I have issues that when I plan out the plot the character evolve so they no longer logically do what I thought they would, and not being sure of where everything going when I don’t plan x-P

Candescent Keeping things sensical and cohesive in a world that has no reference outside of imagination. Real world principles may apply, but with out your reader having point of reference beyond what you offer. Its hard to create something tangible, enjoyable not self indulgent. My biggest hurdle, assuming I even make sense.

deadbeat but you can't limit your stuff to just one story, roxannelange

Horserider i suffer from "i don't know where to go next" block

Horserider or depression induced writer block if i've had a bad day

deadbeat if you're stuck on one project, outline the next

TheIT Horserider, then let the story wander until you do know

@BahamutBrat Hamster, have you tried analyzing your characters to see how they'd work themselves though the story/plot?

HamsterOfDoom Yeah, I don't know that I could write like that, Siren. And if I did, I'd probably veer off course within 20k words and have to do all the index cards over

+sirensix For those who end up stalled a lot of the time by "I don't know what should happen next," you may find that doing more detailed outlines will help you.

TheIT "Not all those who wander are lost" - JRR Tolkien

+sirensix Doing outlines is not as fun as writing, but it is more fun than abandoning yet another story in the middle

RoxanneLange That's just what I mean by an organic writer. I don't outline.

Horserider i cant do that deadbeat. if i start another project, i'll never go back to the first one. plus i have issues with outlines

+KittyPryde siren, when i outline, i always end up veering off course and reoutlining!

Kaiser-Kun could you define outline, please?

+sirensix That's ok Kitty.

TheIT Try different methods. Outlining doesn't work for me, but I didn't realize until I tried.

+sirensix Well, outlines can be different things.

deadbeat i'm an MPD writer then

khajidu what i do is i imagine the scenes in my head...

@BahamutBrat I second the Tolkien quote

WadeTMarkham3 I outline too much. imo

+sirensix My version is plotting out the basics of scene/sequel on index cards.

@BahamutBrat And use it often

deadbeat i always thought i was too chaotic for outlining, and i am when it comes to prose

Horserider i have major issues with outlines. if i do them, i get bored and just quit with the story. i do better if i just forget outlining and start

deadbeat but when it comes to screenwriting i lately realized that outlining makes everything easier

Kaiser-Kun oook. that's what I thought.

+sirensix Index cards are great for doing scenes/sequels or outlines because you can toss them out more easily and replace them when you get a better idea.

Tig my outlines are basic three acts

TheIT My "leapfrog" method is to come up with the next major event. I write up to there, and by that point I know where to go next. Leap.

khajidu i didn't think of a structure when i imagined my story

Kaiser-Kun I think the number 3 reappears a heckuva lot in my story

+sirensix Who here has successfully finished a story without an outline? I am not the best person to advise on that, as I'm incapable of it.

+sirensix So we should ask someone else.

TheIT Me, twice.

deadbeat same khajidu, it always starts with a scene, a character, a mood, a line

TheIT Novels, that is.

Kaiser-Kun I did. it sucked.

Kaiser-Kun well, most of my stories did back then.

khajidu me it's number 4 ot appears a lot in my characters' culture too

+sirensix Ok, TheIT, what do you do when you don't know what should happen next in your story?

deadbeat me, three times, short-stories

Horserider i have siren. Andra i didnt outline at all

+sirensix Same question for deadbeat and Horserider.

deadbeat i jump to the next project

+sirensix And eventually the answer comes to you for the one you left behind?

khajidu me in fanfiction

deadbeat yes

TheIT I've got an alpha reader who I can talk things through with. Also, if I'm completely stuck, I take that as a sign that I took a wrong turn

khajidu but it was crap

deadbeat but i don't go back to it until it comes itself

Horserider i take a break. or if i'm in the mood to write a different scene then i skip ahead and write that scene. gives me something to aim at

deadbeat if i force it then it's no good, at least that's my idea

@BahamutBrat Yeah, I was totally stuck and went back and rewrote three chapters

TheIT Or I let myself wander. I'm revising my 148K first draft now and seeing lots of places to tighten

@BahamutBrat that helped a ton

TheIT Just keep writing. Eventually the light will dawn.

deadbeat everybody has his idiosyncrasies, one of mine is that i can go without writing for weeks, then vomit 25 pages in a night, for two or three different projects

TheIT Resting in motion.

khajidu yeah that's the morning it

deadbeat a bit like a dorky camel

+sirensix I absolutely hate rewriting my prose, so I try to get all the major "rewrites" done in the index card stage. I hate throwing out pages and pages of work. I find it easier to throw out an index card that says "Goal: Convice A to give her a boat. Obstacle: A is stingy. Outcome: A has to give up her firstborn child to get the boat" Or whatever. Heh.

+KittyPryde a published novel writer once told me that he outlines AFTER writing the first draft, to help him figure out the plot and how to tighten it up and make it work

deadbeat i think the key is to never stop thinking about writing, but again, everybody's different

RoxanneLange Wade would like to know how to tighten up a plot.

@BahamutBrat I did that actually, Kitty

+KittyPryde did it help?

@BahamutBrat but I outlined as I edited

+sirensix Yes, the idea of abandoning and working on another project is vastly preferable to just stopping writing altogether. Because you are still working those muscles.

@BahamutBrat yeah, it really allowed me to break things down

Kaiser-Kun outlining saved the novel I'm writing now. Part one was the weakest

Kazel siren, a question for you on outlining: how do you learn enough about your characters so that the outline of your plot fits them?

@BahamutBrat and insert new material in the right places

+sirensix Let me think about your question for a second, Kazel...

TheIT Also, if I'm stuck, I write the questions down in my notebook. The physical act of putting the questions on page helps lead to an answer

@BahamutBrat Kazel, for me I had to learn as I drafted

@BahamutBrat I picked one plot and it didn't fit, so I went back and changed

+KittyPryde i keep tweaking my outline as i write, trying to make everything fit a plot arc

Kazel drafted the outliine or the novel?

TheIT I sent my characters to the Enterprise

@BahamutBrat The novel, Kazel

+sirensix I actually have something of an "outline" for characters, as well. A shortcut I learned from a screenwriting teacher named David Freeman (the only useful thing I learned at his seminar). It's called a character diamond, and it gets me through the outline phase.

deadbeat i never have that problem, my characters are what they are, from their first line or description they exist a 100% in my mind and are like relatives

deadbeat i just see them

TheIT I have to become them to write them

Kazel deadbeat, do you base your characters off people you know?

@BahamutBrat I'm getting better at that Dead, but I'm learning slowly

deadbeat that may be bad because they may be limited, but unless i stumble across a truly terrible cardboard character i'll stick to that method... even though it's not a method

khajidu well that's pretty much what i do i imagine the scenes as if i were one of the characters

deadbeat i base them off features of people i don't know, of other fictional characters

+sirensix For those not lucky enough to have characters spring fully formed like Athena from their brows, a character diamond is useful. It's four "traits" or unchanging facets of personality that, as nearly as possible, sum up that character's entire being.

TheIT Daydreams help.

RoxanneLange God! I better not become my lead female character. She is a former drug addict and current widow.

deadbeat they're like gingerbread men and women, but it all happens unconsciously, i don't think about what they could be like, they're just there

@BahamutBrat Oh, I love the daydream 'method'

+sirensix Usually those four adjectives are enough to get me through an outline without violating the character's natural tendencies.

Kaiser-Kun good method

TheIT Blocking out the scene in my head helps before I try writing it down. I'll walk through it from the different chars POVs then write

+KittyPryde my characters are a bit frankenstein-monster-like---a little bit of me, little bits of other people, all stitched up

@BahamutBrat Six, do some of these traits change by the end?

khajidu i tend to test my characters' personalities though 'big five' tests too

khajidu once i know them well

+sirensix The character diamond is supposed to consist of PERMANENT traits. Characters usually also have some kind of flaw to overcome as well.

Kaiser-Kun speaking of the end, do you like knowing what happens to the characters AFTER the story ends?

khajidu yeah i imagine what's after, before, etc

Kazel I barely know how to answer the personality test questions for myself, it all seems so arbitrary ;-P

+sirensix When I'm sketching it out I scribble the temporary flaw (for the character arc) in the middle of the diamond. Yes, I draw them. I'm very kinesthetic.

Tig yes

TheIT Usually. I tend to start with where I want the characters to end up emotionally by the end

RoxanneLange I have a question on Wade's behalf.

deadbeat i imagine only moments after the end, then it's gone again

@BahamutBrat What 5 tests Khajidu?

Horserider i always know what happens after kaiser

TheIT I work with the same characters, so yes

@BahamutBrat Fire away Rox

khajidu the big five is 5 aspects of personality that are quasi permanent

+sirensix I usually know, by the time I am finished writing a story, what happened about 10-20 years before and after, heh heh.

deadbeat that would be way too much investment for me, sirensix

deadbeat i just want to get in and out

khajidu it's based on scientific studies i think

+sirensix I don't really mean to come up with that part.

+sirensix It kinda happens.

+sirensix I think I know what you mean, Khaj - introvert/extrovert etc?

khajidu yeah

TheIT I learn my characters by forcing them to act against a known quantity, like pitting them against Kirk, Spock, or Sherlock Holmes

+sirensix The character diamond is less rigid, it's just four adjectives of any kind. Like the MC of my WIP: Loving, Fierce, Clever, Tactless. The last one isn't really 100% what I mean for her 4th trait but I couldn't think of a better word. She is horribly socially inept and always says the wrong thing. Foot-in-mouth disease.

Kaiser-Kun For me, my characters' lives end at the end of my story.

+KittyPryde i like that idea siren. i shall try it. characterizing is my achilles heel!

@BahamutBrat Rox, did I miss your quesiton?

+sirensix When you choose traits for your character - to bring it back to plot ;-) - you should choose traits that will enhance AND impede the goals your character has.

RoxanneLange I was wonder what Wade might be able to do to tighten up his plot.

deadbeat when my characters appear on page they're always carried by a certain theme

deadbeat or adjective

khajidu attracted/repelled by new things, emotionnaly stable/unstable, sloppy/disciplined and kind/unkind with people are the 4 other "big five"

deadbeat anything else they may do is a bonus, little ticks and all that

Kaiser-Kun so, thinking about their sacrifice, I allow them to return, and they are told that now that the purpose they were born for, they're free to live as they'd like

+sirensix For example, my character's foot-in-mouth disease is the cause for about 75% of the disasters that she gets into.

Kaiser-Kun so I don't know what happens to them after the story.

deadbeat e.g. one character is 'in denial', the other is 'clumsy', etc.

+KittyPryde tightening: cut out everything that doesn't pertain to plot, character, and theme

TheIT Tightening involves looking for redundancies or switching the order of events around to ratchet up tension

khajidu siren it looks like asperger's sundrome i have this too lol

@BahamutBrat Rox/Wade, I guess, as we've discussed, he can look at outlining, scene and sequel, and the important threads

TheIT Or making someone say no rather than yes

@BahamutBrat And along with tightening plot, there is tightening prose to reduce word count dramatically

TheIT Or not revealing information

+sirensix haha! Yeah, it's that severe with her, khaj - she just has NO idea how to do the whole smooth social thing.

TheIT Revealing information is like a fan dance. Shouldn't show everything at once right at the beginning.

+sirensix Oh TheIT you bring up something very important.

+KittyPryde you might need to cut out a less-important subplot in order to tighten your main plot and make it as good as it can be

khajidu yeah you could look up asperger's on the internet

Tig you can try to raise conflict as you tighten

@BahamutBrat I'll have to second looking for redundancies

TheIT What, sirensix?

+sirensix One of the major things, like TheIT says, is that you have to let there be a lot of NO in your plot.

deadbeat there's a pretty good documentary on asperger's (BBC)

+sirensix People are squeamish about letting their MCs fail.

@BahamutBrat I've seen a lot of manuscripts that revisited the same idea in the same way

TheIT Resistance helps

@BahamutBrat Trim most

khajidu i have asperger's

+KittyPryde i have an aspergian character in my WIP too

+sirensix But until the very end, it's actually BETTER to have your MC fail at like, 80-90% of what they try, hehe.

deadbeat i'm a negative moron so my characters are always losers, in a way

Tig lol deadbeat

+sirensix So if you feel like your plot is boring, look at some of your scenes where your character gets what they're after, and consider rewriting it in a way where your character fails spectacularly.

Horserider i think my characters need to have more faults

deadbeat this means that i'll never write any horse and pony or romance stories set in ireland, but i can live with it

TheIT Take a look at the "Kicking Puppies" thread I started in Writing Novels. Sometimes it's hard to let chars get hurt

*note: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72159

WadeTMarkham3 How long does it take to edit a novel normally?

Kaiser-Kun my character's pretty much a loser at using magic.. so he just improvises along the way, which is what I like more about him

+sirensix Yes, Horserider, every character needs at least one glaring, permanent fault.

@BahamutBrat It depends a lot on your approach and speed Wade

deadbeat it's true though, Tig, you read some of my stuff

+sirensix Wade, it also depends on how bad the novel is to start with ;-)

deadbeat good luck looking for a positive notion

+sirensix Mine take like a year to edit.

@BahamutBrat I'm alomst 6 months in and still going

Tig yeah, I wouldn't call your stuff light hearted deadbeat

TheIT Editing, the never ending process...

Horserider really? it only took me three months to write and edit twice. i must be doing it wrong, or really fast

* WadeTMarkham3 sighs

+sirensix Editing takes longer for me because a huge part of the process is throwing it in a drawer until I forget all about it and can look at it fresh.

Kaiser-Kun do you like characters that are the best at the most useful ability they could need?

Tig to each their own

deadbeat yep

+sirensix Once you pull out a manuscript you've not looked at for 6 months, you will suddenly see flaws in it you weren't aware of before.

TheIT Me, too. I finished another novel draft then went back to editing the first.

Tig so true sirensix

Tig stepping back helps too

+sirensix Really the only way to fast-forward past the "fresh eyes" thing is to give it to someone else you trust completely who is willing to tear it apart.

Horserider i really need to put Andra aside. but i just can't! you know?

WadeTMarkham3 I like to edit like next day lol

Kaiser-Kun I'm editing every chapter after I write it. Hopefully it'll reduce the editing time later. Hopefully.

TheIT Are you done with the first draft?

khajidu who's andra

Horserider Andra's my first novel

khajidu ok

Tig hey Jason

HamsterOfDoom And it's so difficult to find someone like that, who you know will not only rip it to bleeding shreds but do it right

@BahamutBrat Okay, we brought up character failure...

+sirensix I have trouble putting projects aside too, so I give them to others to do my editing/critiquing for me. I've even paid for critiques when desperate.

Kazel Hamster, what do you mean do it right?

@BahamutBrat And that reminds me of one of the types of basic plots

@BahamutBrat The Hero's Journey or Monomyth

TheIT man vs. man, etc?

@BahamutBrat and yep, IT

+sirensix Hero's Journey is huge in fantasy.

@BahamutBrat In the Journey, early failure is very common

TheIT Huge, and overdone...

@BahamutBrat and usually the character needs to be rescued

@Jason But it sells

@Jason Because people want heroes.

TheIT True.

@BahamutBrat It does sell, and it's still just an outline

Nakhlasmoke depends - even something overdone can be done really well, and in a fresh way

+sirensix Just because something is done a lot doesn't necessarily mean it's something that you shouldn't do.

@BahamutBrat no matter how much someone breaks it down

@Jason Right

+sirensix Lots of people eat breakfast, for example. ;-)

khajidu well my chars are not heroes... jut regular guys lol

TheIT One of my goals was to write a non-boring hero

HamsterOfDoom Selling doesn't mean settling. Pratchett sells too

@Jason People ALWAYS need heroes

@Jason Escape.

+KittyPryde because the character starts out unskilled, not brace, inexperienced, unknowledgeable

Nakhlasmoke and improves

TheIT Innocent

WadeTMarkham3 If a main character was paralyzed would any of you read the book?

khajidu depends

Nakhlasmoke gives people a feeling of "me too, I could be this"

+sirensix The only difference between "cliche" and "archetype" is the skill of the writer.

TheIT Sure, if they're interesting

khajidu on what he does

@BahamutBrat It's not what they are, but who they are

Nakhlasmoke yes, I would

TheIT What BahamutBrat said

+sirensix There are books that have major characters who are paralyzed.

Tig or what they become

@Jason Will the paralyzed character get up a tree, have someone throw rocks at him then have to get down? Then probably yes.

+KittyPryde wade, if it was good, definitely. my MG novel being beta read right now has a paraplegic 6th grade boy MC

deadbeat to me it all depends on the language

Tig fourth of july had one

Horserider depends on if the plot is something i'm interested in

@BahamutBrat Would I read about a powerful wizard? Only if they had flaws, desires, and obstacles they struggled with

+KittyPryde i hope others want to read it

+sirensix George R. R. Martin's A Game of Thrones has a paralyzed young boy in it.

@BahamutBrat same for a non-powerful regular Joe

+sirensix As well as a dwarf, an actual real dwarf, not the beardy kind.

khajidu yeah one of those with a genetic disease yeah

deadbeat dwarfism

HamsterOfDoom In my WIP, of the six supporting characters, three are average joes thrust into unusual situations

WadeTMarkham3 My MC who is paralyzed saves an alien race.

+sirensix Hamster, that can be a very powerful plot hook.

khajidu all my chars are average joes

+KittyPryde sounds good, wade

TheIT My MC is an artist with an uncontrolled magical talent

@Jason Well, of course

@BahamutBrat Harry Potter was a regular kid until he got the CALL

Nakhlasmoke so is mine theIT

Nakhlasmoke

@Jason No one wants to see Perfect guy with perfect life continue to be perfect.

+sirensix A paralyzed hero has an automatic obstacle to face, which wins immediate sympathy, if done well.

TheIT Jinx!

TheIT

@BahamutBrat but that's a common theme in Fantasy- zero to hero

@Jason Again, the personal transference

@Jason We put ourselves in their shoes.

+KittyPryde my MC is a regular boring nurse who wants to continue her boring non-fantasy life

@Jason That's the hook

khajidu i have a musical band and a bunch of sentient sailing ships

@Jason For the reader

Tig you have to be able to relate to them or be entertained and curious

@Jason I'm a big House and Inspector Morse nut. I can project myself into them/

+sirensix Actually, my WIP came about from my asking myself, what is the ULTIMATE zero to hero? As in, how could I start a character from the LOWEST possible social station and get her to the HIGHEST, most quickly?

Nakhlasmoke well I like the idea of giving a person who is "different" - say magical - a normal life - like sookie stackhouse working as a waitress

+KittyPryde But IMO a character with a physical disability needs other flaws, personality flaws

RoxanneLange My MC is a widow of 5 years with a 6 year old daughter that is taking a chance on love for the first time since her husband died.

HamsterOfDoom I drool over House. He rocks my socks

Nakhlasmoke rather than them being magical and powerful and a king or prince

+sirensix Oh yes, EVERY character needs personality flaws. A physical disability is not a flaw, it's an obstacle.

TheIT I'd been trying to write about a young swordsman, then realized I knew nothing about being male or sword. That's when I came up with my female artist.

+sirensix Characters must be flawed as well.

Nakhlasmoke unless you're absolutely ripping at political/court intrigue

TheIT But the flaw needs to come from within, not be imposed from outside

deadbeat if a character isn't flawed then it's not a character to me

+sirensix A character without flaws does not engender sympathy from the reader.

Tig a character to can appear not to be flawed but then it shine through

TheIT Characters should make mistakes

@Jason House's flaw is that he's an A-hole, among others

HamsterOfDoom Nakhlas, a writer can do both. My MC is powerful, royal and yet believes herself the entire time to be a normal yuppie from Seattle.

Nakhlasmoke yeah, the only sympathy i have for Barbie is that she's got a choice of Ken or herself

deadbeat but house still hasn't grown up, jason

deadbeat and it's getting old

Nakhlasmoke hamster - that could be very cool

@Jason But he's a Tv character, not a book character

@Jason Apples and Oranges

deadbeat exactly

Mod35tBabe You know I was thinking House is a good example of a flawed character

deadbeat that's why suck for not allowing him to grow up

Nakhlasmoke I always find my middle a series of crap things happening...sometimes I wonder if there's a better way to deal with middles

TheIT When do you let the characters learn what they need to know?

TheIT Fix up the middles in the second draft

+sirensix "A series of crap things happening" sounds like a good read, to me. Assuming by crap you mean disaster and not just bad writing, hehe.

khajidu never at the right time

@Jason What are the actions that facilitate getting from plot point to plot point

@Jason And do they make sense

Nakhlasmoke well...yeah i *mean* things happening, but hey it could be the writing...

TheIT Also play with order of events in the next draft. Sometimes it helps to switch things around

+sirensix Oh TheIT, if anyone has an answer to that I want to know it too. I am SO bad at parceling out information

@BahamutBrat Alright, what about setting the stakes? How do you write a fantasy/SF novel without saving the planet?

Horserider yeah i'm bad at parceling out info at the "right" time too

Nakhlasmoke ooh swapping order...that's an idea. Nice one

khajidu i mean never at the right time... on purpose

TheIT I look at revealing info like either a fan dance or playing cards. At some point you have to show what you've got, just not at the beginning.

@Jason I always look at the middles this way: my drive to work. What was every little action I took to get to work and why did it make sense?

HamsterOfDoom I have a plot and/or length issue. My current work can either be a massive 200k word stand-alone, or at least a two-book series. As a never-published writer, should I kill the plot to get the right length?

TheIT Aim for a single book

+sirensix I have never tried to write a fantasy novel without massive stakes. My WIP has escalating stakes where she tries to save her village and ends up dooming the whole area, tries to save the area, ends up dooming the whole world, so ends up having to save the world just to save her damn village. Heh.

WadeTMarkham3 I'm having trouble with the ending; it won't end

Nakhlasmoke 200k stand alone...? *quivers*

@BahamutBrat You don't have to kill, just put it on a diet

Nakhlasmoke wow. Mine's almost done at 55k. I'm expecting it to hit 75 k max

+sirensix Hamster, if you really feel that shortening your work would kill it, leave it the length it is, and write a shorter "breakout" novel later.

Nakhlasmoke eek not 55k 66k

Horserider i wrote the ending before i wrote the middle of my story

WadeTMarkham3 My is nearing 100k

Tig liam jackson was here once and said that after he sold the first one it was in a series of three they wanted and they wanted the second one in six months. He was happy but stressed.

+sirensix MIne will be a bit over 100K when done.

TheIT Wade, then you haven't tied up all the threads yet. Both of my endings showed up like roller coaster rides. I hit critical mass, then boom.

Horserider my finished one is 92k. and it's YA

khajidu heh i'm only getting started i don't know how long it will be lol

HamsterOfDoom I know how much happens, and how much of that HAS to happen, in order to get from premise-to-ending. It won't happen in 90k words.

Nakhlasmoke I have a more trad fantasy that hit 107k - putting in more would have just made it feel bloated

TheIT My first drafts were 148K and 133K

+sirensix Endings are my BANE.

TheIT I write wordy

TheIT I'm editing with a chainsaw

+sirensix My endings are always so weak. They always just feel like I got tired and wrapped everything up quickly so it would be put out of its misery.

Nakhlasmoke not to be funny, but i tend to notice a lot of waffle in epic fantasies that pushes the wordcount

Horserider i love my ending. it just came to me one day

Nakhlasmoke oh snap sirensix

TheIT Robert Jordan? *cough, cough*

+sirensix The only way I can write a good ending is if I START with it.

@BahamutBrat Siren, the end is often a mirror of the beginning

HamsterOfDoom How many of us know the ending when they start?

TheIT The whole story needs to have some question behind it. The ending is the resolution of the question.

Nakhlasmoke I have gotten way better at endings though...so I guess practice does help

+sirensix I have one "short" story (I have trouble writing anything under 10,000 words!!!!) that has a great ending but only because I built the whole story with that as the start.

khajidu i don't

Fools it's just one technique

+KittyPryde i knew my ending when i started

Nakhlasmoke everyone used to die art the ends..now some live

Tig I don't know exactly the ending but pretty near

+sirensix My problem, TheIT, is that I answer the question, but the answer is terribly disappointing.

TheIT I usually don't know the ending, but I know where I want the chars to be emotionally

Horserider i didnt hamster

Nakhlasmoke soon I won't be able to kill off a cockroach

TheIT Then phrase the question differently.

WadeTMarkham3 My problem is finding a way to give the novel an opening ending and end it tightly.

+sirensix Yes Hamster? Tee hee

@BahamutBrat Also, if you look at the seven basic plots (or another plot scheme) you can try to fit your story to it. Once you have a good match, see what is expected of the ending according to the basic plot outline

Tig like my twist I might know it starting out but I realize I have to do a back flip before the twist

Nakhlasmoke yeah...sometimes i have an idea for an ending but by the time I've written the book, the old ending feels wrong - not gonna shoehorn in an ending

+KittyPryde lol Tig your plotting sounds strenuous!

@BahamutBrat Like, in the Monomyth, the hero should return home with a prize, less flaws, and be unsatisfied with normal life

HamsterOfDoom I'd like linkies to the seven basic plots

+sirensix I know what's expected of the ending, mine just never really seem to deliver. Never satisfy. They always seem weak, even when the "right" thing happens at the end. They feel anticlimactic.

TheIT UJ also points out that foreshadowing is done in the second draft.

Tig heh KittyPryde, you can't just do a twist anymore, it has to be more

Nakhlasmoke i foreshadow in the first draft. Well, my subconscious does

HamsterOfDoom BS. Foreshadowing is tightened in the second draft.

@BahamutBrat Six, are you good at scene and sequel?

TheIT Something's missing, six?

@BahamutBrat are you haveing trouble with the last sequel?

+sirensix In my WIP for example, I know that my character has to basically give up her humanity in order to save the rest of humanity. And she does it. But it's like.... "Oh." I just can't write it in a way that really makes it punch the way I want it to.

Fools what is scene and sequel

+sirensix I am pretty good with scene & sequel. And it's actually the last SCENE that is killing me.

deadbeat i'd like to know that too

@BahamutBrat Scene is a scene with action, Sequel is a scene with reaction

TheIT Since I don't outline, I don't know what to foreshadow until I've finished a draft

+sirensix Scenes are the action bits of your story where the character goes for a goal and meets an obstacle, and succeeds or fails.

@BahamutBrat You'll have to google or see the transcript for more Fools

+sirensix Sequels are how they react to the success/failure and what they decide to do next.

Fools ok. Ah. I get it

HamsterOfDoom Siren, you might want to pass the file around and let some people see if they can't find the issue on a read-through. I know that always works so much better for me than trying to get a fix from a quick explanation

Nakhlasmoke I don't outline either, and foreshadowing still creeps in - that's why I always tell myself to trust my brain when it wants things to appear or happen in the story

khajidu i outline in my head

HamsterOfDoom I know basically where I'm going, but it's not detailed enough to call it an outline

Tig yep

TheIT Agreed, Nak, I ended up solving plot problems by offhand comments my characters make. But in next draft, I can figure out the emphasis.

khajidu yeah me too

Nakhlasmoke I like being surprised by my story as I write it..

Kazel Siren, the needing to give up your own humanity to save the world sound similar to Anne Bishop's book Belladonna. The writing isn't great but it may be helpful to look at and see what you do and don't like about her ending

+sirensix "Pass the file around"?

HamsterOfDoom Bahamut, can you shoot me a pm to the seven basic plots?

Fools you should know where the character is at the end

deadbeat i usually see my ending after the very first idea that comes to my mind

Fools before you write the end

Fools at least

@BahamutBrat Sure, Hamster, give me a second

TheIT Six, one thing to consider (character point): something Orson Scott Card said about "if the character cries, the reader doesn't have to".

khajidu i would like a pm too about the basic plots

deadbeat or let's say, at least i know what feeling i want for the ending

+KittyPryde my ending was demanded by my MC

+sirensix oh YES TheIT.

HamsterOfDoom I mean, email a copy of your WIP to a couple-three people you trust, and tell them the problem as you see it and ask what they see.

+sirensix I always used that in acting, but you are so right, that should be true in writing as well.

+sirensix I used to hold back tears to make my audience cry, hahahahaa.

TheIT Try OSC's "Characters and Viewpoint" book

Horserider can i have a pm too please?

@QueenB Or don't tell them the problem, and let them come up with it themselves

+sirensix So I assume you're saying, the less my character emotes about her tragic fate, the more the readers will feel?

Horserider on the seven basic plot points

khajidu me too

+KittyPryde so, the situation should be tragic, the characters' reaction should be understated, then the readers will feel really sad for them?

TheIT Yes, six

Fools what's OSC

+sirensix Ahhhhhhh maybe that will give my ending more punch.

TheIT Orson Scott Card

+sirensix <3

+KittyPryde very prolific SF and F writer

@BahamutBrat Here is the book, Seven Basic Plots. It's huge, so it's best to look over the opening and other parts that are helpful- http://www.amazon.com/dp/0826480373/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

Kazel http://www.hatrack.com/writingclass/index.shtml

Horserider well it doesn’t seem to me that the reaction should be that dramatic otherwise people just laugh like they do at bad acting

Fools georges polti has a book called the thirty-six dramatic situations

+sirensix Yeah, that is one of the major problems with my writing. My characters are so histrionic that they suck all the tension right out of the plot, hehehe.

TheIT If the character is weeping and wailing, why should the reader? Present the events, resist the urge to explain, and let the reader choose their reaction.

@BahamutBrat You can also google Seven Basic Plots, but I've never found a satisfactory summary

Tig didn't everyone cry at the end of Ol' Yeller

deadbeat it's all about circumstance

Skyrish of course

TheIT And buildup

deadbeat what's Ol' Yeller?

+KittyPryde sad book about killin yer dog

Tig book and movie

HamsterOfDoom Khajidu, same happened to me

+sirensix TheIT, that COMPLETELY explains why that one story of mine worked so well. The main character had STOIC as part of his character diamond, hahahahaha. No wonder people reacted so emotionally to his stuff. ha!

deadbeat what's sad about it, the sucker deserved it

deadbeat just kidding

Skyrish lol

Tig heh, he saved the family

+sirensix I am having an epiphany.

Horserider ol' yeller is so sad

Tig yep

Horserider i cried so long reading the book

@QueenB real tear-jerker

TheIT Subtle can be much more evocative than emotive.

+sirensix Yessss.

@QueenB too much a display of emotion is embarrassing in real life and killer to a story

+sirensix Though I'm not sure how I will manage it in this particular story, because my MC is both "fierce" and "loving," not character traits that suggest she will be particularly calm or stoic.

deadbeat i think it just depends on the moment and on how you define too much, QueenB

TheIT it's also show vs. tell. Show what the character does rather than telling us what he feels

Skyrish oh fierce and loving can be in a very stoic person

deadbeat sometimes there's absolutely no emotion at all in my stuff and then i basically pummel the reader with verbs and adjectives where it matters

KittyPryde fierce loving sounds unpleasant

Skyrish held back

Skyrish as in great power held in restraint

+sirensix I guess I could probably make her slightly more stoic than she is without breaking the way I envision her.

+sirensix She does bury her own husband in the first chapter. Literally.

TheIT "With great power comes great responsibility"

TheIT Not every character has to be stoic

khajidu YEAH

Tig yep

----------

And that about wrapped up our chat. Thank you to everyone who came.

Kitty Pryde · Feb 13, 2009

Transcript From February 12, 2009: Settings in SF

Transcript from February 12, 2009.

Topic: Home away from Home: Writing about life in space ships, space stations, and moon bases

@Peter Welcome to tonight’s Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Chat.

@Peter Now, for tonight’s discussion. The following topics have been suggested.

@Peter BahamutBrat?

@BahamutBrat Topic 1: How will people change as a result of living in these places, socially, biologically, psychologically, politically? If free fall is the option, do you deal with loss of muscle tone and bone density or not, and if you do, how?

@BahamutBrat Topic 2: In world-building these locales, do you work out every logistical detail of infrastructure (air, water, waste, recycling, climate control, transportation, etc), or do you only do the minimum amount of work necessary for your story?

@BahamutBrat Topic 3: What kinds of things make life on a ship/space station more interesting or plot worthy than plain old life on earth?

@BahamutBrat So, let's start with topic one

@Peter The chat room is now open for discussion.

@Peter How will people change as a result of living in these places, socially, biologically, psychologically, politically?

@Peter (you may talk now, if you like).

@Peter welcome folks

+KittyPryde Well, deconditioning is a huge problem in zero-gee, but there are ways around it

@Peter explain?

+KittyPryde artificial gravity, or a spinning ring to create low gravity to exercise in

+KittyPryde or NASA has exercise machines for its astronauts too

WadeThomasMarkham3 They would be elitists and they might evolve into a subspecies.

@Peter How are you gonna explain that to the reader without winding up
with an info-dump?

@BahamutBrat And exercises that don't require gravity, yes? Pushing your palms/arms against each other.

@Peter In one of my stories, my characters live inside a huge rotating habitat. To them, it's life as usual, but to the reader it's foreign as hell.

Jason Might be helpful to hit on the things that are pertinent to the character rather than an info dump.

Kaiser-Kun then, is the scenario shown in Wall-E possible?

Horserider that would be considered exericising baha?

Horserider of course it is kaiser

+KittyPryde people in space might be elitists. but if they had to come to earth, and they were too exhausted to move around from deconditioning...

@BahamutBrat Yep, HR, it's like doing pushups, but against yourself

@BahamutBrat so, I don't read SF much, but could you have things break and mention the effects a little then, or is that cliche?

@Peter break?

@Peter like dishware? or major equipment?

@BahamutBrat major equipment

+KittyPryde that would be interesting--when the artificial gravity goes out and we don't have a way to compensate

@BahamutBrat your rotating habitat for example

WadeThomasMarkham3 I'd explore the elitism from a psychological pov.

Guest3 there was a character in the red,green, blue Mars series who had grown up on Mars and who had a lot of trouble with the stronger gravity on earth

@Peter it would work if that was part of the story plot

Guest3 don't know if that helps...

@Peter good point, Guest

@Peter does indeed.

@BahamutBrat Comparisons are always useful

+KittyPryde i love green mars

@Peter in fact, that's a topic that's touched on often in SF

@BahamutBrat between environments and between characters with different backgrounds

+KittyPryde Peter f hamilton has a lot of characters who grow up on space stations/asteroids and they wont go planetside because they are too weak

AnnieColleen there's a Heinlein short story about a character who lived in orbit and was elitist about muscular weakness...but in that case the weakness was the reason for living in space

AnnieColleen don't remember the name of the story

* Guest3 is now known as scratchingcat

scratchingcat yay

+KittyPryde like, his weakness was a point of pride?

AnnieColleen right

+KittyPryde very cool

Kaiser-Kun now that we touch gravity... if there are humans standing on a meteor, and the meteor comes closer to earth, does the Earth's bigger gravity pull affects the human on the meteor?

AnnieColleen my brother says the title (& character) was "Waldo"

WadeThomasMarkham3 has anyone written about the effects of elitism from an alien pov?

AnnieColleen (& the character was said to have invented waldoes (the mechanical gloves) to compensate

+KittyPryde do you think there's a good opportunity to rebel/declare independence living so far away from your home country in space?

Kaiser-Kun I think there's a chance, but it'd have to be a small and short revolution

@BahamutBrat Depends on how big the gunpower of your home country

scratchingcat I don't think the people on the meteor will notice the gravitational pull of the earth on the meteor, just like we don't notice the gravitational pull that Jupiter has on us

@BahamutBrat and if you have ships as fast as theirs

Kaiser-Kun a rebellion would probably just aim to take off the leader

Kaiser-Kun ok, thanks

Horserider well i dont see why not. after all it'll take a while for your home country to come after you

AnnieColleen Heinlein again: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress...war of independence in space (ie the moon)

Kaiser-Kun however, I think it'd be very difficult to convince your fellow stationers to revolt

Fools what would futurama do

AnnieColleen not that the moon's a space station, but...

Kaiser-Kun the smaller a community is, the tougher it is to resort to violence

+KittyPryde on one hand, they are far away, but on the other hand, you have to be able to function without supplies from your country

Horserider not if you’re escaping because you don’t want to live on your home planet anymore

AnnieColleen (& going back to the exercise thing, 'cause I just found what I was looking for: using a trampoline to exercise in 0-G...NASA did a study on the effectiveness:

scratchingcat sounds like what the American colonies did

AnnieColleen http://www.reboundair.com/NASA_rebounder_report.htm

Kaiser-Kun so what'd happen if they do run out of supplies? cannibalism?

+KittyPryde or sniping government ships

Kaiser-Kun they could also try finding an habitable planet

Horserider i'm all for stealing from government ships

@BahamutBrat Alright folks, lets move on to topic 2

@BahamutBrat We can revisit topic one after the official chat is over

@BahamutBrat In world-building these locales, do you work out every logistical detail of infrastructure (air, water, waste, recycling, climate control, transportation, etc), or do you only do the minimum amount of work necessary for your story?

@BahamutBrat I know in Deepness in the Sky, a lot of the logistics were covered

Kaiser-Kun I'd check the necessary stuff to prevent plot holes

Jason I'd work out what's necessary to the scene or the overall tome. If I don't need to know how the tap water turns on, I won't write it.

Jason I'd add ...

@BahamutBrat some of it was very interesting--the habitats, the water. And some of it was dull and overdone

Jason That I think that level of detail is a byproduct of the Star Wars culture -- the need to know every 'Droids name, the names of the planets, the plants, the ships and so on.

Horserider it might be nice to know how everything works to prevent plot holes and answer questions when you’re famous

Kaiser-Kun every community needs supplies, a trade system, repair, building, and purpose

Jason Which is good, but that comes later

@BahamutBrat So I think a balance that focuses on the more interesting/colorful aspects is important. Or the most critical

WadeThomasMarkham3 I do the minimal work; I might worker when my skills grow.

WadeThomasMarkham3 work harder

+KittyPryde yeah, i'm with Wade, i just develop the minimum needed

Jason The key I would think would be the level of detail and how it contributes to the plot/story.

+KittyPryde if the plumbing's going to break, i work that bit out, but otherwise, i leave it be

Kaiser-Kun I'm glad I asked the gravity question. A scene in my story would be the gravity shifting in the meteor, so it'd be like walking on the roof for the people there

Jason However ...

Jason

Jason I would think the SF crowd are detail nitnoids ...

Jason So, more would be better.

+KittyPryde i know what you mean jason

scratchingcat I would like to know what makes the things work

rosemerry like how Heinlein went into detail how the battle suits worked
in Starship Troopers

+KittyPryde some writers can pull off the super-detailed stuff

Kaiser-Kun and some like me can't even name a forest

rosemerry I think he used three pages describing those suits

+KittyPryde kim stanley robinson does great long-winded descriptions, but other authors make my eyes cross

scratchingcat because the environment on known planets needs to be taken into account

rosemerry I like his descriptions

WadeThomasMarkham3 I perfer soft science fiction because I'm a character driven writer.

Hollow I don't really like long descriptions.

@BahamutBrat So what makes some writers good with the technical details and some writers just put us to sleep?

Hollow Only need to know what's important

Kaiser-Kun may I bring an awful example?

Hollow Some are just in love with their own world, and it shows.

rosemerry my story a lot of the setting is a spaceship. Do I need to go into detail how the gravity is made or can I just leave it alone and let them assume it's made ala Star Trek. Or does it depend on the type of story I'm creating. Lots of detail and what.

+KittyPryde you can go into loving detail, or 'hand-wave' it away

Tig I think it would depend on if it was layered into the story because of a reason later rosemerry

rosemerry I have a novel called Elysium's Daughter and she goes into lots of detail about heart defects and such. One of the characters is a doctor

rosemerry hold on a sec let me get the book.

+KittyPryde if it's not going to break, you could mention a gravity generator or other similar fictional device

Tig if the gravity generator was to tear up later causing some kind of effect in the story it would be relevant

Kaiser-Kun and if you describe your characters walk around the ship, instead of hovering or swimming across the air, the reader'd assume there's artificial gravity operating

rosemerry I don't think I have it. But in the author bio she is like a biology major in college

+KittyPryde velcro shoes and walls are cheaper than zero-gee though

scratchingcat only in the short run

Kaiser-Kun hmm... what if the G-Generator brokes down.. and when they get to Earth, they can't walk, but they're awesome swimmers..

Horserider but also less effective i imagine

rosemerry and I think she added that info in because she knows about it but it was really boring reading it.

+KittyPryde less effective and more troubles for your characters

@BahamutBrat But can you really swim in space?

@BahamutBrat Is there enough resistance?

@BahamutBrat Or do you have to bounce off the walls so to speak?

Kaiser-Kun I guess it'd be more like levering with your body

STOOPID_Dewphus ya have to bounce

rosemerry I don't think so. Astronauts suffer from muscle loss because they aren't really working due to the lack of gravity.

Tig you can propell yourself off of something

+KittyPryde or pull yourself on handles

scratchingcat you can make self-propelling motions

Kaiser-Kun they could use a portable grappling hook

scratchingcat at least that is what the people on the ISS do

+KittyPryde ooo sounds dangerous KK

Jason Any sort of motion would be tough because of whatever protective gear you're wearing to shield you from the elements.

@BahamutBrat Oh, grappling hooks sound fun

nevada you cant cat, self propelliing only work if there is something for resistance. in a vacuum there'd be nothing

rosemerry How about magnetics?

@Peter in Niven's "Integral Trees" it was a weighless world but one with air... his characters wore flaps that worked like wings

Kaiser-Kun hmm, yes..

@BahamutBrat Like the maglev trains, Rose?

Jason To manipulate anything would be difficult because of the thickness of the gloves. It's hard enough when its 30 degrees in Isotoners.

Kaiser-Kun the grappling hook gun would kick back and you'd be hurled back, right?

+KittyPryde the grappling hook gun would hit innocent bystanders

rosemerry what are maglev trains?

Tig heh KittyPryde

@BahamutBrat You could have fixed ones. Kinda like ski lifts more

Tig there comes the calamity

WadeThomasMarkham3 bullet trains

@BahamutBrat the non-chair ski lifts

+KittyPryde you mean gondolas baha?

@BahamutBrat no, you just hold the handle and get towed. Tow lifts

+KittyPryde oh, rope tow, that is a good idea

* KittyPryde steals baha's idea

@BahamutBrat excellllent

Kaiser-Kun ah, that works

@BahamutBrat Alright, shall we move on to the next topic?

Kaiser-Kun like a conveyor belt?

@Peter you bet.

@Peter what's next?

@BahamutBrat Topic 3: What kinds of things make life on a ship/space
station more interesting or plotworthy than plain old life on earth?

@BahamutBrat (and not a belt, just a handle on a tow line KK)

STOOPID_Dewphus survival

@Peter going outside is a killer

@BahamutBrat Isolation then

Horserider anti-gravity

Kaiser-Kun Windows.

rosemerry I was reading in I think Astronomy magazine or Science magazine about Sun's being a different color

Jason Same things that make life on a submarine interesting, I would think: being secluded,

@QueenB limited egress

@Peter well, not if the ship is big enough

+KittyPryde i think the close quarters with other people lend themselves
really well to good psychological drama

Jason Or being in a tank.

rosemerry and therefore on other planets with different suns plants wouldn't be green like here on earth

Horserider hmm i feel strange desire to write sci-fi romance

Jason Limited food products

Kaiser-Kun Small World Vs. World Outside

AnnieColleen conflict scenarios -- either in the enclosed space, or between the spacers and others

Horserider risk of being hit by a meteor

+KittyPryde limited supplies like on an island

Jason Familiarity breeds contempt.

Tig different kinds of conflict

@Peter what about a moon base? still deadly to wander outdoors without a space suit on

Jason Emergence of new relationships than what started before the ship (e.g., deviance and so on).

AnnieColleen most of the same would apply, I'd think

@QueenB long term in a space station could lead to inbreeding

rosemerry inbreeding due to not enough colonists or

Kaiser-Kun Exile from the colony? (in other words, the MC's death sentenced, but survives?)

@Peter but there isn't necessarily the same kind of confinement that you get in a space ship

scratchingcat being thrown together with people you would avoid on earth?

+KittyPryde stowaways! like in red mars

rosemerry oh yeah

AnnieColleen depends on the size of the colony

Jason On the moon base, you're still confined to the suit. So, there's still the element of artificial existance

rosemerry Coyote is one of my fave characters

Kaiser-Kun how'd you punish a lawbreaker?

@BahamutBrat While familiarity does breed contempt, there is a human need for contact. And when there are two ships beside each other with a rift of space that must be overcome to connect the people, I think that's a major psychological factor.

Horserider shoot them into space kaiser

Jason existence

@QueenB throw him out the hatch!

Kaiser-Kun considering he has two hands your colony might need

rosemerry you could punish them like the Amish punish their people

@Peter waste of resources, QueenB

Horserider cut his hands off and then shoot him into space

Jason Also, how quickly a hierarchy can breakdown given close quarters

Tig not if the moon base was like a dome of living area

rosemerry excommunication you don't talk to them, or touch them or do anything for them

WadeThomasMarkham3 what about if an alien wants to change its society from elitist to be inclusive?

Jason Fast spread of diseases

+KittyPryde if people know they'll be thrown out the airlock, they would be more likely to behave?

@Peter Jason, you don't think we'd have the danger of disease taken care of by the time we lived exclusively in such habitats?

Tig not necessarily, the bad guys might be throwing the good guys out

@BahamutBrat They'd be more likely to try not to get caught

rosemerry I don't think they would be more likely to behave they would just get sneakier

Jason Bacteria and virus evolve like all other animals do, Peter. So, no.

@BahamutBrat Peter- not so much. Diseases like to adapt

Jason How many strains of flu can;t we fight

STOOPID_Dewphus not if new diseases presented themselves Peter

@BahamutBrat and they repro- what Jason said

STOOPID_Dewphus i was thinkin that (new bugs)

rosemerry moving to a new planet we wouldn't have resistances to the diseases on that planet

+KittyPryde i think the need for strong leadership is extra double important in such a risky environment

Jason And NO ONE's cured the cold virus yet

scratchingcat oh, got one more, generational conflict between the ones who still remember living on earth and the ones who don't

@Peter yet

rosemerry much like how native americans didn't have resistance to Old World diseases

@BahamutBrat But you can take sanitary measures to keep things in control overall

Jason HG Wells used that very fact in War of the Worlds

@QueenB and there's always the threat of sabotage by bringing in a virus

+KittyPryde good one cat, so the second generation is drastically different, being raised in space. Why these kids today!

Horserider i wonder if it's possible to have kids in space...

Tig sure it is

Tig you can grow things in space like plants

@BahamutBrat They had those Biospheres where they probably learned a great deal about diseases in closed environments

Tig might be easier for those who are made to be baby makers

scratchingcat I don't think it is so sure

@BahamutBrat That might be worth looking into

+KittyPryde i think nasa said it is, but i don't think anyone's been conceived up there yet

rosemerry I'll be back. I have to run to the store.

Horserider i'm pretty sure having kids is different

MacAllister There's also (If I can jump in without breaching protocol?) That overwhelming sense of space as The Enemy, like Bear used it in Dust - it's so alien and hostile an environment as to be nearly religiously incomprehensible

scratchingcat eggs need gravity to know where to implant themselves in the uterus

Tig still comes out Horserider

scratchingcat sorry for being so graphic

+KittyPryde didn't nasa issue a report on the subject of space love?

Jason Other issues: if a system breaks on a starship, it has to be repaired. What if the parts aren't onboard? Who brings them and from where?

+KittyPryde fabricators fabricate everything we need?

STOOPID_Dewphus wow cat THAT is interesting

Horserider home planet

@BahamutBrat no worries Cat, it's just biology

AnnieColleen trade, if there are other planets/colonies around

Jason Too easy, I would think, to just frabricate it. Need resources, materials and manpower

Jason If the colonies understand your level of tech or, for that matter, you.

@QueenB regular visits from home planet with supplies takes some of the conflict out of the situation

Jason Well, I take that back.

Jason "Colonies" implies "Colonization"

Jason So ...

STOOPID_Dewphus Queen what if the whole planet is no longer there?

STOOPID_Dewphus what if it exploded?

AnnieColleen trade misunderstandings could make for good story fodder too

@QueenB then obviously there would be no hope for help from that quarter.

AnnieColleen getting something that's not quite right and trying to make it work...

STOOPID_Dewphus so then a conflict is back

Jason But isn't necessarily interesting enough to focus a story around.

Jason Maybe

+KittyPryde trade embargoes could be a very effective way of forcing your space stations to cooperate

AnnieColleen maybe, maybe not

AnnieColleen but could be part of a layered conflict, too

STOOPID_Dewphus BUT what IF they were already prepared (cuz hey KNEW the home planet was gone)

Jason Yes.

Tig reminding me of Wall-e, I just saw that the other day
* STOOPID_Dewphus wonders if this is playing out in some parallel universe

Jason There are also physical issues. The human body needs sunlight.

+KittyPryde does it?

@QueenB or they're waiting for supplies when an SOS reaches them from the home planet, and they find out that the planet has been destroyed years before (since the message takes years to get there.)

+KittyPryde or just vitamin D supplements?

STOOPID_Dewphus good one Queen!!

+KittyPryde yep, being left alone without help in space is a great problem

Jason Ask the folks living in Scandanavia why they have the highest suicide rate in the world and the least amount of sunlight on the globe.

@BahamutBrat Alright folks, shall we move to another topic?

STOOPID_Dewphus yup...but that was fun

@BahamutBrat Following from our conversation- Topic 4- Space and spaceships are cold impersonal spaces. What kind of emotions can these setting evoke?

@QueenB isolation

Tig disconnected?

Jason Sadness

Jason Anger

+KittyPryde claustrophobia

WadeThomasMarkham3 fear, insanity, loneliness.

@QueenB lack of empathy

STOOPID_Dewphus paranoia

nevada isolation euphoria

Krazof couldn't the spaceships etc. be made homely though?

+KittyPryde like with throw rugs and such?

Krazof yeah

Jason So could the Unabomber's cabin

@QueenB you mean homey?

AnnieColleen reminds me of Pat Murphy's "There and Back Again"

Krazof in the future they could be like houses with engine rooms XD

scratchingcat infinite boredom

AnnieColleen Tolkien's description of a hobbit hole, as applied to an inhabited asteroid

+KittyPryde any positive emotions?

WadeThomasMarkham3 insanity (if the ship is sentient and insane)

AnnieColleen very cozy

Jason Hmm. Not sure how homey you can make something you're mostly involuntarily isolated in for a very long time.

Hollow Power?

Jason It wears off after a bit of time

Hollow Cleanliness, maybe

@BahamutBrat Thrill of discovery

@BahamutBrat Boldly go where no man...

+KittyPryde maybe people are pushed to be together due to close quarters

Jason Vietnam POWs did the best they could in camps, but wanted to get out at any cost.

AnnieColleen adventure, opportunities for heroism and nobility as well as the reverse

@QueenB intense friendships

nevada wouldnt all those throw pillows lying around be a problem during sudden acceleration and decelaration periods?

scratchingcat holodecks!

Jason Right. The spaceship is a means of commerce for the MC, thus, a means of survival and making money.

Krazof that's where the velcro comes in

nevada ahhh velcro. the vulcans invented that you know

@QueenB virtual walks in the park

+KittyPryde is the holodeck enough to keep us all sane?

Jason Still fake

Jason And you know its fake

Jason Your mind doesn't embrace it

@BahamutBrat They had real parks in Deepness in the Sky

Jason Still barriers to full commitment

@Peter and in Eon, Baha

Hollow If you have experienced the real thing then you might feel that way Jason

@BahamutBrat that also helped with the water and 'recycling' I believe

+KittyPryde and in Reality Dysfunction

@Peter and in Rendezvous with Rama

Hollow But say that its a place where generations are raised
* Andrhia ([email protected]) has joined #AbsoluteWrite

Hollow They might not have that experience to compare to

Jason Space Mountain is not outer space.

rosemerry back

+KittyPryde a lot of people love video game snowboarding with no desire to try the real thing...

Tig and if you are alone like tom hanks in the castaway where even a volley ball looks good as a companion

rosemerry spaceships I think are very orderly

Tig I would want my spaceship orderly

rosemerry even if the ship itself looks as if it's haphazardly put together.

@QueenB a place for everything and everything in its place

+KittyPryde my quarters would be slovenly

@QueenB what if you get a total slob for a roommate?

Tig but being picked up by one that was disorderly might put a orderly
person under stress

Krazof like lister from red dwarf?

+KittyPryde dirty plates floating around in zero-gee, socks on EVERY surface

rosemerry The whole idea that the void of space is just on the other side of the wall would make me very self aware of possible mistakes that would bring the outside in.

Jason Right

Jason Like 50 million gallons of water to a submariner.

Jason The creaking and groaning of the hull is always a reminder.

rosemerry yeah like that Jason

rosemerry would a hull in space creak and groan

rosemerry maybe little pings from space dust hitting it

Jason In George Lucas' world, it would.

@QueenB there might be pings and pops from objects hitting the hull.

scratchingcat that would be a major disaster, it the dust was heavy enough to make a sound

rosemerry and people are trying to make a tune out of the noise because random noise just wouldn't be acceptable

@QueenB rose and I seem to be on the same page. lol

Andrhia Creaks and groans from small internal pressure changes

Andrhia Like a house at night, you know?

Jason Right from the temperature changes swelling and contracting

rosemerry yeah

+KittyPryde alright, fellow writers, we've had a great chat tonight!

+KittyPryde Thanks to you all for participating in tonight's Live Chat. The 'official' portion of the chat is now concluded. However, you may continue this discussion or any other you like. Look in the SF/F Forum Chat Discussion thread in a few days for a transcript of tonight's chat.

@BahamutBrat Your Official Live Chat staff would like your opinions about how well this evening's event worked. We welcome your comments and critiques. You may post them here, or if you wish you may post them in the Discussion thread. Thanks again--this was fun!

Kitty Pryde · Feb 20, 2009

February 19 2009 Transcript: Sex and Relationships in SFF

Transcript from February 19, 2009.

Topic: Sex and Relationships in SFF

Extra thanks to the wonderful CathyC for joining us this week to share her expertise. And thanks to everyone who turned up to chat with us. We hope to see you next week!

Note: this thread may contain adult topics!

@Peter The chat room is now open for discussion. Let’s begin with Proposed Topic #1.

+KittyPryde How do we develop the relationship between our hero and heroine (or other characters) while moving through a SF/F plot? How is conflict between characters important? And how do the characters discover they are right for each other?

Tig opposites attract

rosemerry okay I have a fantasy story idea

+KittyPryde I think there's almost always going to be some major danger for our characters to rescue one another from

Horserider that's so cliche

Crowned_Sun Well, just to kick things off, conflict between the characters is important the same reason it's important in any story. Without conflict, you don't have a story, you just have a fantasy.

Crowned_Sun And not the genre fantasy either

rosemerry where the FP gets rescued by the MP from being raped.

Tig cliche can be so true though

CathyC Developing a relationship in an SF plot has everything to do with both opportunity and the situation. A relationship is going to be different on board a long range mission versus a crisis situation.

JasonTudor There's always the "Were working on a project/experiment" together scenario

@BahamutBrat While Opposites attract can build conflict, there needs to be a
connection for the relationship to be based on

rosemerry so she falls in love with him because she was saved by him.

Horserider well without conflict it wouldn't be realistic. Two people don't usually just fall in love and live happily ever after. It's boring

rosemerry prearranged marriage to keep the genetic pool viable

CathyC And that's the trick, because it's what happens MOST often in real life. So it has to be logical for the conflict to occur

Crowned_Sun Even if they did, Horserider, no one would want to read about it.

JasonTudor "Fringe" used that one; pair of FBI agents working together

Tig or rosemerry he falls in love with her because she saved him

Horserider that was the point crownedsun

CathyC prearranged marriages is really quite common, still on this planet, so I would presume it would make sense on other worlds as well

TauCeti They have a history that was interrupted long before the start of the novel...

JasonTudor For the robot/human interaction, it might be that the human was building it, or the robot was healing the human

rosemerry the robot became sentient

CathyC Another common thing is the "new to this reality" idea. A newcomer to a strange land.

rosemerry or what if it wasn't a humanoid robot but like a computer.

sirensix I personally love the "working on something together" angle for a developing relationship, because it allows you to demonstrate true compatibility as well as conflict.

rosemerry ala X-Files

@BahamutBrat That is a common theme Cathy. The intrigue and mystery and usually a driving force.

CathyC I've seen several stories like that. A few were erotic, but some just a love story with no hope of physical love.

Crowned_Sun "Thrust into shared circumstances, and discovering that you get along better than you might think," is amusing as well. Kinda what I'm doing in my WIP, along with some character growth for both characters.

+KittyPryde i like the, something goes kablooey and the MCs end up on the run from it together

JasonTudor Like Alderaan Kitty?

CathyC I think intrigue and mystery are the driving force of ANY SF novel. Most fantasies too. That makes it harder to overcome in the relationship part

sunandshadow I find it interesting that it can be just as effective as starting with one character aiding the other, to start with one character offending the other. From there you can go to guilt, gratitude for forgiveness, or a battle of wits

rosemerry what about POW or another prisoner type situation like how Native Americans would take white captors and adopt them?

CathyC Sure. That works too. The "Stockholm Syndrome"

Crowned_Sun The whole "The characters probably wouldn't get along together, romantically, at first - but over the course of the novel grow into people that are compatible," is fun, I've always thought.

@BahamutBrat Harder how, Cathy? And can you give an example?

tjwriter My favorite couple, that I mentioned upstream, started out loathing each other on principle and misconceptions. They were both very stubborn characters, but they were working with others for a common purpose, and it really worked well for me as a reader.

CathyC It's difficult enough to make relationships realistic in comtemporary novels. But it's hard for a reader to overcome the "why would they take time for nookie when they're being chased."

CathyC It's hard for the writer to blend the sex and relationship with the plot and have them flow naturally.

sirensix I think the easiest way to think of compatibility is, what does each character secretly long for that the other is very good at providing? Maybe your male is insecure and the female is very reassuring, or your female is shy and the male very outgoing, etc.

+KittyPryde how about the characters who fall in love but then start to get pushed apart by circumstance (like fighting on opposite sides etc)?

JasonTudor Sex establishes the connection; its a tool to show the incredible bond between the two

rosemerry I never understood that in novels either Cathy

sirensix I am personally a sucker for teacher/mentor and student ;-) There's a bit of naughtiness there that I like, and it's not hard to explain why someone would admire a teacher/mentor.

CathyC Any romance subgenre faces this. Sex can START the connection, but the timing is critical. It can't overpower the primary book plot or it just falls apart.

@BahamutBrat Siren- That reminds me of the fact that characters need desires and driving forces. So something in another character could fulfill those desires

Crowned_Sun I dunno, I've never had a huge problem with that. Assuming the two of them being together, and having a bit of breathing room, makes sense... It's not hard to see how that could lead to other things.

Crowned_Sun Human beings are pretty sexual.

CathyC True, Crowned. It's the "breathing room" that can be tricky. A lot depends on the overall timeline of the book. If the book is a month, there's breathing room. If it's a week, not so much.

JasonTudor The intercourse is a tool to establish the relationship at that point

JasonTudor Or it's just a cheap gag to get someone to buy the book/movie ticket

JasonTudor It' like a prom date

JasonTudor The measures get upscale as the night goes on.

CathyC Of course, the more "alpha" you make a hero or heroine, the tougher it is for that person to BE a sexual creature. Many are career/crisis focused. They're not easily distracted.

Crowned_Sun Well, depending. In one of the Dresden Books, him and his love interest have a few hours of alone time. The sex scene was fairly workable there, at least in circumstances.

CathyC That's why fantasy is often easier than SF for this.

Tig I notice that if someone says that the people have a love between them guys just assume there has to be sex

CathyC The editors sort of require it.

Tig women can be more emotional

@Peter it's easier to have an alpha character in fantasy?

rosemerry My mom read a SF book where the "fuel" for the ship was people having sex. I wish I could remember the name of it.

CathyC It's why we're moving to Urban fantasy

JasonTudor Yes, but there has to be a reason to show the intercourse; like wanting to kill one or both later.

JasonTudor One high offsets a low

+KittyPryde how do we help the arc of the love subplot match the arc of the main action plot? (this is a weak spot for me)

JasonTudor Yin and yang

JasonTudor Rhythm and release

TauCeti love leads more often to sex that vice versa

CathyC Yeah. Alpha characters that are magical have the ability to be brooding for CENTURIES. It makes them "ripe for the picking" by just the right girl/guy

JasonTudor It strengths the plot because it supports the plots goals

JasonTudor The love fuels the MC and his desire to get what he's after

JasonTudor money

@BahamutBrat Kitty- I think love scenes can match the 'Sequel' part of Scene and Sequel

JasonTudor cure

sunandshadow The arc of the romance has to climax before or after the main plot, they aren't supposed to go at the same time

JasonTudor whatever

@BahamutBrat A time for reflection, while advancing the plot

@BahamutBrat or story

@BahamutBrat or character

+KittyPryde ah, sequel, it's kryptonite to me!

CathyC Kitty, I wish I had a good answer. It really depends on the book. But I will say that we tend to arc the two plots separately to make sure that they EACH appear in every chapter.

sirensix I think you almost always have to resolve the romance BEFORE you resolve the main plot, if it's a fantasy and not a romance.

CathyC I don't agree, sun. They DO have to go at the same time---at least in the romance subgenre

@BahamutBrat That's a good point. You can't forget one plot for another

sirensix The main plot resolution is in theory what the fantasy reader is there for, so once you resolve that, the book should end ASAP.

rosemerry sometimes when I write the romance subplot is competing with my main plot to be the main plot.

+KittyPryde obviously, MC doesn't decide she can love again just as she kills the bad guy and saves the world...

CathyC If it sits on the SF/Fantasy shelves, that part of the plot rules. if on the romance shelves, the romance has to be equal or greater.

rosemerry How do you guys keep it a subplot?

sirensix If the romance is the main plot, then it is a fantasy romance novel, and that's ok too

JasonTudor Or maybe the MC's death somehow fuels the rage or the focus

sunandshadow But the main conflict is usually not between the hero and the heroine, it's between one or both and a villain. It would be distracting to have the high point of two different climaxes too close together

Crowned_Sun I just don't devote it as much attention, rosemerry. Have it develop more slowly. Readers can enjoy that if done right.

CathyC It CAN be between the hero and heroine. Love can come from respect and that can be respect of an enemy.

Crowned_Sun Obviously not in a Romance Novel, though

JasonTudor So the villain is connected as the brother of, the father of, the uncle of or something like that

rosemerry obviously

sirensix In Mistborn, by Brandon Sanderson, it was an interesting use of resolving the romance after the main plot. The resolution of the romance was actually the very last page, a kind of coda.

Crowned_Sun I'm kinda lagging my Romance subplot behind my main plot in my WIP, might not even have any sex in the first book at all, and definitely not until the denouement.

Crowned_Sun But I generally enjoy romance stories that save the "payoff" until later.

CathyC And that's perfectly okay. Tension doesn't have to come to fruition. In fact, many readers PREFER it to drag on book after book.

rosemerry In a story I'm brewing I'm going to use a sex scene to show a major decision that my FP makes.

Ideclarey In the second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Linden Avery was only able to harness her powers as the sun sage as she grew to love Covenant, and to need him so fiercely, that she was willing to violate his mind to save him from himself. In this way, as the plot drew them inexorably toward Lord Foul and Covenant's final showdown with him, it raised the tension by showing just how inadequate he was to the task, and almost juxtaposed her, because of

sirensix Yes, it depends on the role you want the romance to play in the story. If it's a big source of tension and suspense, drag it out as long as you can. If it's just flavor, it's ok to get them together earlier.

+KittyPryde Let’s move on to Proposed Topic #2, which is: "I judge [sex] scenes as effective if they are evocative, fluid, true to character, and contribute to the development of the story." (Sarah Donati) How do we achieve these objectives when adding sex scenes to our SF/F novels?

sirensix Oh, my favorite topic.

CathyC One of the things I really dislike in SF (or any other) novels is "gratuitous" instances.

sirensix I would say, first of all, ask yourself, "If I cut out this sex scene, will anything really be lost aside from sex itself?"

@Peter explain?

CathyC For no reason other than "Gee, I think they should leap into bed here."

@Peter ah

@Peter well, that's a thing to dislike in any genre, eh?

+KittyPryde so can we brainstorm some things that a sex scene can achieve, other than 'gratuity'?

sunandshadow I think fantasy and science fiction give unique opportunities to make the sex relevant to the main plot and worldbuilding

rosemerry like the OMG we might die in ten minutes let's have sex now!

@Peter heh

Tig I like the tension throughout, keeps my attention

sirensix Some sex scenes can contain very important plot or character information. For example, the revelation that a certain character is a virgin. Or that the warrior is really a big teddy bear deep down. Hehe.

Crowned_Sun Agreed, Cathy. You have to make sure that the scene makes sense; even if it develops the story and is true to the characters!

CathyC When the sex makes no sense, and there's no tension at the precise moment it needs to not be there. We've fought with our editor about this.

sirensix Uh oh, I have a "we might die, let's have sex" scene. Hehehe. But I haven't decided if I'm going to "show" it or just refer to it.

+KittyPryde exploring hidden aspects of character are cool

Ideclarey Examples: a) Terminator. Sarah Connor had to sleep with Reese, to bring about John Connor. Non-Gratuitous. Highlander: Connor MacLeod stabs himself to get Brenda to sleep with himself by proving he's immortal. Gratuitous.

rosemerry what about using sex to show power over another person. Not rape but using it as a weapon instead of doing it because of love.

JasonTudor R2-D2 watching C-3PO take the oil bath ...

sunandshadow sex scenes often expose a character's inner conflict and especially fears of inadequacy or not being trustworthy

+KittyPryde yeah, or using sex to get something character wants and can't get by other methods

@BahamutBrat Personally, I fade to black because I don't want to write the details. But in the buildup, I wonder if it is still easy to reach those objectives.

sirensix I do a kind of "fade to gray" where I don't skip the scene, but I describe it in very vague/oblique terms, heheh.

+KittyPryde what are some plot-advancing reasons for a sex scene?

JasonTudor On a more serious note, deek nails it: does the intercourse tie into the plot; great examples, BTW

@BahamutBrat And I agree with your first example Clarey (can't speak for the second)

Crowned_Sun Even the build-up can contain a lot of evocative description, really.

Crowned_Sun Probably should if you're fading to black. Else why have the scene at all?

sirensix An example of a sex scene tying into plot can be found in A Game of Thrones

rosemerry in my Roman Empire class I wrote a paper on how Messalina and Aggripina the younger used sex to gain power.

sirensix A young boy catches the queen and her brother in the throes of what-have-you...

sirensix And that pretty much sets up like 135151246 pages of plot.

CathyC I read one novel where sex WAS the plot. The heroine was trapped on a world where intercourse was the means out of poverty and each successful act took her closer to a rocket ticket off the planet.

Crowned_Sun Oo good example sirensix.

sunandshadow the rhythm of fade to gray is different from the rhythm of steamy explicit scenes. In fade to gray nothing can change during the off-camera part, while in steamy scenes a major character or relationship change often occurs

+KittyPryde ah that's a good one siren-big implications for the kid and the incestuous sibs

tjwriter I think you can fade to black and still have a relevant scene there. What if some important disclosure comes before the fade?

JasonTudor The example that comes to mind for me is when Morgana tricks Arthur into intercourse

sirensix George R. R. Martin's work contains many excellent examples of both gratuitous AND nongratuitous sex, heh heh.

CathyC True. Would the story have gone on without that?

rosemerry I don't think I've ever read any fade to black stories

@BahamutBrat Important disclosure is a good point TJ. Intimacy allows for disclosure

+KittyPryde disclosure of secrets, you mean?

Tig or manipulation

sunandshadow fade stories are also called 'sweet' romance, and many movies use fade scenes

rosemerry I've seen plenty of movies that do that

CathyC It could be. It's also a way to break down walls to learn more, even if not a precise "secret."

@BahamutBrat I do, Kitty

JasonTudor Mickey Spillaine was good with fade stuff

@BahamutBrat Not sure about TJ

rosemerry just have read any books. I've read some christian romance but they don't even go that far.

sirensix Keyes' The Briar King fades mostly.

sunandshadow I'd like to get at the possibility of uniquely fsf sexual worldbuilding
though...

sirensix He does some makeout scenes, but fades out on the real stuff.

sunandshadow Line, 3-gendered or hermaphroditic races

sunandshadow ^like

CathyC Do you think readers, in general, are getting tired of the "open door" in so many novels?

tjwriter Any sort of important information. What if one character sleeps with another to obtain the information (trade) or perhaps a discussion about a scar that is part of the motivation of the plot occurs because they got see each other naked.

Ideclarey What about addiction? Or poison? The sexual contact with an alien or magical race may be near fatal to the human, and so that becomes a major plot point?

tjwriter Anything really.

sunandshadow also, species or individuals which lifebond

rosemerry I read a short where there was a "middleman" and the two people couldn't feel anything without the middleman

+KittyPryde so a sex scene can reveal important information about the biology/society of the nonhumans?

CathyC True to character is another important point and goes back to what I was saying about "alpha" people.

TauCeti sounds like an episode of "Enterprise"

@Peter does anyone write sex scenes where the purpose of the sex is not pleasure, but purely for procreation?

sunandshadow societies where one gender or group is traditionally dominant to another, or widely prejudiced against, is also a thing to explore in sex scenes

CathyC A lot of truly "tough" people don't let others in, so sex might just be flesh on flesh.

rosemerry oh that's a good one Peter.

sirensix I have seen Jennifer Roberson do "sex just for procreation" scenes!

Crowned_Sun I've written a few where it was about an expression of emotion/love, but not just procreation.

sirensix In fact she has done "rape just for procreation"

@BahamutBrat I think that theme (sex for procreation) is common in some non-human races

@BahamutBrat Elves or aliens

nevada or conversely peter, as in the forever war, where homosexuality becomes the norm expressely to stop procreation

sunandshadow I write impregnation erotica but it's definitely for pleasure

sirensix In the Cheysuli series there is a lot of "sex only for the purpose of getting pregnant" sex.

JasonTudor uh oh

rosemerry In my story with the prearranged marriage I'm going to have some homosexual couples

rosemerry but the women still have bear children so that would be just procreation.

@BahamutBrat Cathy- with those tough characters, how do you add to the character development?

rosemerry so like being homosexual isn't wrong but not having children is.

@BahamutBrat Or do you focus on the non-tough character?

+KittyPryde do the toughies have to be softies at heart to make the romance more fun
to read about?

Crowned_Sun As an aside, I think one of advantage of actually playing out the sex in a novel is it allows you to peel back some of the layers a character sets up in day to day interactions. Show another side to the readers.

sunandshadow toughies can have their protective instinct called out

sirensix No, a guy (or gal!) can be tough as nails all the way through and the sex/romance can still be satisfying.

sunandshadow or toughies can get used to a softer companion but not notice until they lose that for a while

Crowned_Sun Particularly if it's sex in the context of a romantic relationship, rather than just... You know

CathyC Mostly, the hero/ine has to let the other person in. That requires a breaking down of walls that it might have taken a lifetime to build. For television, think about Data and Tasha on ST:TNG. She had a lot of walls, and it took an android to break them down, because he wasn't a "threat."

sunandshadow eh, personally I prefer them to be mushy inside

CathyC Tension for a relationship is all about "threats," whether physical or emotional. That's where it comes from.

+KittyPryde Let’s move on to Proposed Topic #3, which is: In SF/F we often have non-human characters (robots, pixies, angels, aliens, etc). How do relationships between a non-human and a human allow for a better story? Between two non-humans?

JasonTudor Pinnochio

JasonTudor Data from ST:TNG.

@BahamutBrat Yes, as Cathy just mentioned, Data

JasonTudor Exploration of things neither of the two fully understands

rosemerry the mini-series V

sirensix Human/non-human adds the conflict of culture clash and possible negative consequences

sirensix And it allows you to highlight cultural differences

JasonTudor Stranger in a Stranger Land

sunandshadow You can conveniently create the alien culture to get at some widespread issue in human culture that you want to psychoanalyze

Crowned_Sun It's another type of Conflict, really. Built in.

JasonTudor Fish out of water

+KittyPryde a non-human might have extra powers that pertain to love/romance/sex

rosemerry there were a couple of mixed relationships in there and they had children which was weird.

Ideclarey Han Solo was able to data dump whenever he translated Chewie for the audience. Threepio did this also translating for various people.

Horserider i've read human/non-human romance before. awesome story too

CathyC Again, it's about threats IMO. With fantasy and paranormal there's the risk of loss---of life, of humanity, and of (and this is the important part) of CONTROL.

TauCeti Human/Cylon

@BahamutBrat There could be extra concerns about intimacy. Clark Kent worrying he'll get carried away with his superexcitement

rosemerry Galaxy Quest.

@QueenB good point, brat

JasonTudor The intimacy concerns are o9nly to the audience, not to the MC who wants to engage

CathyC Precisely. Magic/supernatural/alien takes control away. And that's very exciting to the reader.

sunandshadow races that form a permanent bond are a vehicle for exploring all sorts of trust and commitment issues

sirensix It seems to me that if there are real physical differences, you'd almost need to spell out more than a human/human sex scene.

sunandshadow races with 3 genders bring up questions of jealousy and sharing

Crowned_Sun It's also interesting if the non-human has a very inhuman view of sex and its place in a relationship. Like, a relationship between a human with human sex drives, and another race that really does view sex as unimportant to a relationship and at best something used for procreation.

sunandshadow it's a good thing to have an excuse to spell out more than a human/human sex scene

nevada omnisexuals like captain jack in torchwood

+KittyPryde then you have star-crossed lovers whose various species don't normally mix and whose families disapprove

Tig or you could just have the characters walking away, with that "wasn't that weird" expression

Crowned_Sun There are bound to be tons of other dynamics to work there; a race that is much MORE sexual than we are, or with "weird" tie-ins to sex. The whole 'sex then kill mate' aspect.

sunandshadow shapeshifters who can look like anything vs. human sexualities that are targeted at a specific gender and type

rosemerry could you have the alien have sex but because it was so different than human sex the human partner didn't know they had sex until later in the story?

CathyC Has anyone ever written a couple who literally CAN'T mate? Whose parts don't match up?

sunandshadow even if the parts didn't match they could do oral or mutual masturbation right?

nevada there's a comic strip on the web where one character is a blob and he's in love with a human

sunandshadow would be sad though

JasonTudor uh oh

rosemerry that would have to be a very strong relationship then I think.

Tig I guess you could rosemerry if she came up pregnant later

Crowned_Sun Presumably. What if it was like, a race whose sex is telepathic, with humans who just aren't.

+KittyPryde there's lots of stories about falling in love with ghosts, and the opportunity for ghost lovin' is very limited

@BahamutBrat Is the lack of resolution in that instance (can't mate) too frustrating for the reader?

CathyC I would change the dynamics of the relationship pretty dramatically. It could be a very interesting read.

Crowned_Sun I'm not sure that'd be the basis for a relationship, though. It's a little far afield.

@BahamutBrat Or can the writer find a middle ground and satisfying ...climax?

sunandshadow I can imagine a telepathic alien with some kind of insecurity or fetish that made non telepathic humans for appealing partners

@BahamutBrat or conclusion

TauCeti like the beings in "Cocoon"

JasonTudor Wasn't the apex of sensuality in Logan's Run telepathic?

+KittyPryde yeah, when you can't mutually complete the deed in the traditional way there is a great opportunity to connect in a more thoughtful and deep way

CathyC If people who are impotent or disabled can love, then why not aliens with no ability to procreate?

Crowned_Sun I wasn't thinking of it like that, more, without both parties being telepathic it's just not possible.

sunandshadow no masturbation?

Crowned_Sun Or, say, a human and a gaseous cloud from a gas giant.

rosemerry that's interesting Sun

CathyC I suppose, but would the other person even recognize masturbation?

Crowned_Sun Where it's really not possible.

sunandshadow would a human really lust for a gas cloud though?

Crowned_Sun Even from a "nothing but mutual masturbation" angle, really, that's a very large strain on any relationship.

@BahamutBrat A gas cloud? Like Locke and Smokey in Lost?

@BahamutBrat

rosemerry maybe there's a telepathic connection

sirensix Oh I want to see that, Brat. *snicker*

+KittyPryde i read a really interesting relationship in a short story where one character was cyborgily modified so much to perform a certain task that she was essentially disabled, and she had a nonphysical sexual relationship with her caregiver. it worked

+KittyPryde Let’s move on to Proposed Topic #4, which is: Falling in love with one person, getting married, and having kids is the way things go for most mundane earthlings. What alternate forms of love/romance/marriage/family creation might we use in our SF/F, and what kind of issues do they bring up?

@Peter cloning

rosemerry polygamy

rosemerry polyandry

CathyC Obviously, group marriages would probably be common on ships.

rosemerry free love

Tig artificial insemination

@Peter dehydrated powdered babies... just add water and stir.

Crowned_Sun Well, in my WIP, the Love Interest's Husband runs off to California to date a 24 year old... via switching bodies with a Hollywood Actor who is my Protagonist.

Only possible with Magic!

Tig lol peter

rosemerry lol

Crowned_Sun Body Switching can be tons of fun for both Science Fiction AND Fantasy.

+KittyPryde procreational sex totally separate from love/pleasurable sex

sunandshadow oh my recent idea: in a magical world withno DNA, incrimental pregnancy. women really can be a little bit pregnant, children can have multiple fathers, pregnancies last variable lengths of time

TauCeti There's a scene in my novel where the MC, who can astral project , teaches his love interest how to become astral and the two 'merge' in the astral plane.

CathyC barfed up eggs ala Futurama's Kif and Amy

+KittyPryde yuck!

Crowned_Sun Also, for Science Fiction, I've always loved the concept of like - almost /casual/ gender modification. Couples that switch gender on whim, for instance.

JasonTudor Build-a-Bear type repro centers

CathyC Hey, frogs do. Why not people?

Crowned_Sun Not to mention the change in a relationship when "having a baby" involves computer models and selecting the options you want

rosemerry when there's too many of one gender some switch to the opposite

@BahamutBrat Glue yourself to someone's face and let your offspring hatch through their chest. Parasitic aliens are awesome.

Hollow Jurassic Park ftw

rosemerry Cathy beat me to it.

+KittyPryde read a book where many people chose to be modified and live as true non-gendered folk.

sunandshadow a communistic society where pregnancy is negligable because all children go straight into state creches

@BahamutBrat What was the benefit, Kitty?

Crowned_Sun I wrote a short story about that a while ago; stupid computer crashes stealing my work. *shakes fist*

CathyC sentient parasites that breed with the host but never leave.

sunandshadow any kind of society with a big gender ratio imbalance

+KittyPryde they just wanted to live as not male or female, temporarily or permanently

Crowned_Sun One of the science fiction books I read a while ago, I think it was "Vigilant", involved a Group Wedding too.

OverkillWadeandRoxi In our next novel, number two of the series, we will have an alien falling in love with a human. Not sure how the dynamics of that are going to play out yet.

sunandshadow humans which are surrogates to voluntarily incubate alien eggs are cooler imho

CathyC Do we, as writers, have an obligation to try to stretch the boundaries of relationships? To open the reader's eyes to not what IS, but what could be?

OverkillWadeandRoxi I feel we do.

Crowned_Sun I generally consider that kind of stuff as part and parcel of Science Fiction, at least.

@BahamutBrat I wouldn't say obligation, but I think it is a strong benefit

CathyC Or is it simply easier to give the reader what they can imagine?

rosemerry I think so

JasonTudor That would be the "Science" in science fiction wouldn't it?

sunandshadow I don't think we as writers have an obligation to do anything, but
certainly some people might want to do that

Crowned_Sun And it certainly helps to make your nonhumans more interesting in Fantasy and SF.

OverkillWadeandRoxi Wade does also.

@BahamutBrat People can be too xenophobic as a group. Letting them explore new possibilities can allow them to 'open up'

rosemerry if aliens are just like people sexually how are they alien?

Crowned_Sun I mean, the whole "Humans with Funny Faces" issue is cultural as well as biological.

sirensix In my WIP I have "mortal loves demigoddess," which is kind of interesting. I think of it as an exaggeration of "common person loves celebrity" or some such.

Crowned_Sun And sex/relationships play into that.

Crowned_Sun That is interesting, sirensix.

Tig I don't think it is obligation as much as looking for a new twist

@Peter Everyone wonders how Larry Niven's Pierson's Puppeteers procreated...and never found out.

+KittyPryde but showing weird alien love can definitely help illuminate love in all its mundane human forms

rosemerry siren didn't some greek sculptor create a statue of Venus that he fell in love with it. So Venus brought the statue to life

sunandshadow pygmalion

sunandshadow and galatea

sirensix Pygmalion and Galatea, yes. Another interesting sci fi idea...

sirensix Falling in love with your own creation.

Crowned_Sun Oh another example I thought of from my WIP; a Demon that is possessing a guy, and got into a relationship with another woman, whom he loves who doesn't know that she's dating a Demon

What if the person you're with isn't who you think they are?

rosemerry ah okay

OverkillWadeandRoxi We are going to have an asexual alien loving a human.

CathyC We use mating as a both magical and physical phenomenon in our Sazi series. Shapeshifters that actually share the parts of the animal nature that humans try to ignore. So, we have wolves who mate for life. And wolves that are [gasp!] gay. There are some, after all.

rosemerry X-File where a male demon is marrying humans in order to have a normal human baby.

JasonTudor How did Smurf's procreate? Hmm.

sunandshadow why would an asexual alien love anyone? you don't mean hermaphroditic or something?

OverkillWadeandRoxi lol

CathyC Or Rosemary's Baby. That's a common horror theme. But not so much in SF

+KittyPryde maybe the asexual alien loves platonically

nevada smurfs were made by gargamel

CathyC Who knows what's under those little white smurf caps. Hmm??

Tig you can love without sex

rosemerry wasn't Smurfette created by Gargamel and then made good by Papa smurf Jason

Hollow You can, Tig?

OverkillWadeandRoxi Yeah. Hermaphroditic.

sunandshadow love without sex isn't romance though

JasonTudor It's related and talks to the final topic.

Tig it was with Wall-E and Eva

Tig and it worked

@BahamutBrat I disagree Sun

+KittyPryde there can be romance without sex, sun!

CathyC It isn't? Why do you say that, sun?

Tig theirs was holding hands

JasonTudor There's also the idea of ultra-fast evolution

@BahamutBrat Romance includes a great deal of intimate acts outside of intimacy

Tig and they saw that in a movie

sirensix Depends on the type of love. You can love someone erotically but not actually have sex with them.

nevada and in the middle ages, an abbess and a abbot had a long love affair without ever consummating

JasonTudor Going from Amoeba to biped in six months vice 5 billion years

rosemerry what about Christian romance there's no sex in those novels

nevada i cant remember their names

sunandshadow because it's friendship?

nevada hildegard i think

sirensix Like my love for Naveen Andrews. *snicker*

sunandshadow there's no reason for possessiveness if no sex is involved

Tig it was more than friendship

Crowned_Sun I kinda do agree with the other sun that sex is more important to romance than some give credit.

But that's immaterial for romance in stories, anyway, since that's about what people perceive rather than anything else.

sirensix I disagree, sun

Crowned_Sun You can easily write stories about sexless romance.

sunandshadow sex off-camera is not the same as none at all ever

sirensix Mulder/Scully, before they ever had sex, had a very possessive and romantic relationship.

nevada but if you're dealing with aliens the rules would be different, no? maybe they don't need sex for possessiveness

CathyC True, siren

+KittyPryde yeah, or characters can just really want to have sex and never get the chance for whatever reason. like one is an insubstantial creature

sirensix Even if Mulder and Scully had never had sex, I would still classify that as a romance.

rosemerry true that siren

CathyC Sort of sorry they did, as a matter of fact.

Tig yep sirensix

CathyC Burning loyalty is a great substitute for traditional love.

@QueenB anyone remember the love-hate relationship in Moonlighting?

Tig sexual tension

sunandshadow A posessive and 'romantic' relationship without sex says 'rivalry' to me. or Ho Yay if you are a tv tropes wiki fan

@BahamutBrat I'm not familiar with Moonlighting

Tig I agree CathyC

rosemerry watch any anime lots of sexual tension without sex

JasonTudor I knew moonlighting would pop up

Crowned_Sun Tension is a wonderful wonderful thing, hehe.

sirensix Moonlighting is a master class in what NOT to do with a relationship, hehe. At least on a TV show.

@QueenB Cybil Shepard and Bruce Willis

CathyC Very strong love/hate. Mostly hate at first.

Tig yep that conflict was better being just that

Crowned_Sun But isn't that something that precedes a relationship, rather than being a part of it (tension, that is)??

sunandshadow sexual tension implies sex though, whether in the future or in the character's imagination

@QueenB show fizzled after they had sex

rosemerry I remember watching Moonlighting but that's about it. I don't really remember what happened in any of the shows

+KittyPryde i think the tension-filled bit is part of the relationship

CathyC That's where the conflict led to trust and then respect. They ruined it with sex, IMO

Tig that is when even a touch seems more

@QueenB yes

JasonTudor right

sirensix If it were something that had a definite ending, they could have resolved the tension at the end. But to hang so much of the show/novel on sexual tension means you have to either find dumb excuses not to resolve it, or resolve it, and then where's your show?

@BahamutBrat The Fifth Element was amazing

@QueenB that's true.

Tig yeah, I liked Fifth Element too

@BahamutBrat They really developed support for each other in that movie

Tig and how she came into his life

rosemerry The Fifth Element rocks

rosemerry why should I save Earth?

rosemerry Love

rosemerry how awesome is that

JasonTudor Plot holes wider than Oprah's love seat, but a brilliant film

CathyC That's much like several series I could name. When the tension drives the plot,
it sort of ruins the worldbuilding. It can turn into a parody of itself.

Crowned_Sun I just think there's a point of diminishing returns for sexual tension. At a certain point, I - as a reader - just want something to progress and develop and am ready to move on. I'm patient, I can wait several books for it.

Crowned_Sun But that's getting off the topic

JasonTudor Right. Moonlighting was good for Tv because you got it 42 minutes at a time once a week.

JasonTudor Method of delivery matters

@BahamutBrat Well, it's 10:00 folks

@BahamutBrat This concludes the official portion of the chat.

@BahamutBrat We return you to the regular free for all.

@BahamutBrat Thank you everyone for coming!

Kitty Pryde · Feb 27, 2009

February 26th Chat Log: Archetypal Characters

Transcript from February 26, 2009.

Topic: Making Archetypal SFF Characters and Races Come to Life: Wizards, Space Captains, Elves, Robots, et al

Note: during this chat, we covered the following archetypes: Farmboys Who Must Save The World, Vampires, Wise Old Mentors, Elves, Dragons, and Robots. Thanks to everyone who joined us to share their ideas. Enjoy!

@KittyPryde This week in SFF Forum Chat, we'd like take a look at some of the archetypal characters and species that pop up in our work all the time. I'll throw out some general questions, and then we'll look at some specific cliches.

@KittyPryde How can we use beloved/archetypal/convenient characters without resorting to well-tread cliches? I'll start with some definitions:

@KittyPryde What is an archetype? An original model of a person, ideal example, or a prototype after which others are copied, patterned, or emulated; a symbol universally recognized by all. (Wikipedia)

@KittyPryde What is a cliche? An idea which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning, especially when at some earlier time it was considered distinctively meaningful or novel (Wikipedia)

@KittyPryde Questions to ponder for each topic: What aspects of this subject make it tired/cliche? What about this subject are you absolutely tired of seeing?

@KittyPryde What are some choices to make this subject fresh/unique/interesting? Would it work to turn this cliche on its head?

@KittyPryde Here are the specific topics I thought we'd cover tonight. Please, if you have any suggestions for a different topic you'd like to cover, PM one of your friendly chat ops (KittyPryde, BahamutBrat, or Peter) and we'll try to work it in.

@KittyPryde And now, the cliches! Farmboys Who Must Save the World, Vampires, Wise Old Mentors, Assassins,Brave Stoic Captains (of starship or fantasy army), Elves, Inhuman Robots or possibly Robots Who Want to be Humans, and Dragons.

@Peter The chat room is now open for discussion.

@KittyPryde Let's start with Farmboys Who Must Save the World

ELM I still like the farmboy.

rosemerry The first thing I think of is Link from Zelda

Tricksee ala, princess bride?

TheIT Eddings

Horserider Eragon is the first thing i think of

@KittyPryde ala princesss bride, star wars, lots of high fantasy

@BahamutBrat Harry Potter in a way

Horserider Everyone loves a rags to riches story. probably why farm boys are so popular as heroes

TheIT Farmboy goes hand in hand with "prophecies of doom/chosen ones"

ELM it's still done because it still works.

Indi It's the Arthur myth

Horserider How is Harry Potter a farmboy Baha?

TheIT Chosen one, then

@KittyPryde what are the cliche aspects of that archetype?

ELM the whole point of the farmboy is identifying with the character.

@BahamutBrat He is the savior, HR

ELM And yes, I would consider HP a farmboy in this sense.

Tricksee doesn't know he's the chosen one

rosemerry Neo

TheIT Hero's journey, and the audience can follow along as he learns

Horserider I was taking farmboy literally

ELM same thing - Neo

ELM not just that.

ELM if you give someone a character they can identify with then the reader believes.

rosemerry a person of no importance finds out he's the saviour of the world

ELM and that's why farmboy works and gets reworked to near death.

Greeny He would be the example of "making something out of what people think is nothing"

@BahamutBrat Yes, what ELM said. Farmboys or common folk is what most people can id with

ELM I don't see farmboys as nothing, I see them as common

TheIT So when we see a "char of no importance", readers automatically assume they're special

ELM fantasy uses the farmboy because knights and castles come with farmers.

ELM HP is regular schoolkid, not the jock, not the brain.

TheIT That's why my orphan character is just an orphan. She's not the unknown daughter of a king or anything.

@Peter not all fantasy is about knights and castles or farms

ELM If they are of no importance people forget them.

@Peter Star Wars

TheIT HP is "The Chosen One" TM complete with prophecy

ELM but that's not how HP was introduced.

@KittyPryde so what can make the reader look at your farmboy and not sigh because they've think they've seen it all before?

@Peter in the book or in the film, ELM?

ELM He was introduced as lost kid, then shoved into a world where he was special

ELM It's actually a twist on the farmboy story

ELM and both, Peter.

TheIT Neither was Luke Skywalker introduced as "chosen one". He discovered his destiny as the story progressed

Tricksee give him a handicap

rosemerry could you make bring his whole little troop to help him save the world but he wasn't the chosen a different member of the group was.

ELM kid locked under the stairs.

@Peter well, so is Luke Skywalker

ELM Right.

Tricksee he's not a perfect specimen

Indi I dislike that cliche because the specialness often has to do with parentage...as if greatness is in your genes

ELM The difference with HP and Luke is that no one thought Luke special but Darth and the Emperor. HP was known by all.

rosemerry It worked for the Romans

TheIT Ah, I see, ELM, but does the fame aspect make a difference?

@BahamutBrat "The force is strong in this one" (Yoda I think) So the good guys thought him special too

ELM If I were my high school English teacher, I'd say Jesus was the first... but I'm not so I won't.

TheIT The fame hindered HP.

ELM And yes, the fame makes a difference.

@Peter it only changes how you initially perceive the archetype... doesn't change the fact the archetype exists

ELM People can identify with having a task thrown on them they don't know how to complete.

ELM At once you think you’re worthless and know everyone is counting on you.

ELM that's conflict of a very personal type.

TheIT The prophecy aspect bothers me.

Indi Good point ELM

ELM agreed.

@KittyPryde is it possible to set up Worthless Average Kid as needing to save the world without resorting to A Prophecy Said So?

rosemerry could you write a story where the chosen one isn't actually the chosen but one of his friends is.

Greeny fame makes a difference I think because it can cause conflict.

TheIT Always good to take your character out of his comfort zone

ELM Of course.

rosemerry That archetype is hardly alone

ELM Enders Game

Horserider that might be a fun pov to try. chosen one's best friend

ELM The whole point of journey story is teach people/readers to become more than
what they are.

Guest Ok

ELM Enders Shadow does that Horserider.

rosemerry Like in the Lord of the trilogy (movie) a lot of people I talked to thought Sam was the real hero not Frodo

ELM Told from the point of view of Bean

TheIT I like the idea of someone of humble background saving the world, but not because he was destined to do so. Right place, right time, and he steps up.

TheIT Frodo couldn't have done it without Sam, and vice versa.

@KittyPryde OK, since we have a lot to cover, let's move on to our next topic, gang: Vampires!

TheIT Mwhahaahahaha....

TheIT Sorry

TheIT Couldn't resist

@Peter bleah

@KittyPryde We all love em, but how can we make them our own in our writing?

@BahamutBrat I want to see a vampire without super strength

TheIT Ah, no, we don't all love them

ELM I don't really like where Vamps have gone.

ELM I like mine scary, not dreamy

rosemerry go back to the vampire being the super evil bad guy

TheIT Too angsty

rosemerry instead of the I want to be the good but I can't cause I'm cursed.

TheIT Pure evil with no desire for redemption

Indi Hate em. Worst cliche ever.

ELM Only because they all the sudden became teenagers

@BahamutBrat Maybe not even undead. Maybe they just need blood b/c everything else is too hard to metabolize

@BahamutBrat heh

@KittyPryde so how can we un-cliche-ify them?

ELM I've actually toyed with writing a vamp as hero, but not really there yet.

TheIT Part of the problem is there are too many types of vamp mythos

ELM Why is that a problem.

rosemerry what if you show the vamp "falling in love" with someone but it's only a ploy to use them as food.

@Peter Kelly writes about vampires. Let's hear what she has to say about the archetype.

ELM There are contemporary stories for every culture and people.

@ChaosTitan TheIT - That's why I think vampires are such a rich playground for writers. There is so much mythos to play with, we're able to take what we want and leave what we don't.

TheIT Too many creatures called "vampires" which follow very different rules

Indi Because vamp stories are contrived

@BahamutBrat Well, un-cliche is part of what I said maybe- less super powers

@BahamutBrat less 'magic'

@KittyPryde I personally love the Chinese Hopping Vampires, but they're always in kung fu flicks and never books!

@BahamutBrat As one option at least

SaraAnn Ever since Stephanie Meyers made vampires completely perfect I’ve lost interest in them.

@ChaosTitan And who's the say what the "rules" for vamps are?

TheIT Author defines the rules for their world

@ChaosTitan Exactly.

@Peter so what's the difference between a vampire and say, a Ferengi?

@BahamutBrat Perfect characters are typically boring, I agree

rosemerry in the genres I hate forums the thing some people said about vampires was inviting them into your house and uninviting them

ELM The biggest issue I see with vampires/lycans, the whole mix is they must remain secret.

Horserider There are no rules for a particular archetype. Just because it's been done before doesn't mean you can't put our own spin on it

ELM The only reason to remain secret is that they fear their dinner.

TheIT But vampires are also part of popular mythology. if you redefine the rules, are they still the same creatures?

@Peter or a Klingon?

ELM That's actually my biggest beef with HP too.

@ChaosTitan My vampires are very different from, say, Jim Butcher's vamps. Or Charlaine Harris's vamps. There's so much out there to pick from.

nevada charlaine harris's series has vampires out in the open

Indi ferengi is the invention of one proprietary plot

TheIT As long as the author remains consistent

ELM Consistency is good.

SaraAnn TheIT- that makes a good point. If you make them too...un-relating to their normal myths, people won't recognize what they are anymore.

ELM And any story can be brilliant, no matter how over done when it was written.

@Peter so the "thing" about Vampires is that there is a cultural mythos?

TheIT I like Jim Butcher's vamps because he's got different takes on the vamp "essence" of stealing something from their victims

ELM Go on, Peter.

TheIT Dracula

@ChaosTitan Isn't that what people accuse "Twilight" of doing? Creating this thing and calling it a vampire, even though it wasn't?

Indi I think people feel that there is a type of person who is like that parasitical

ELM I like Jim Butcher’s too.

rosemerry Nosferatu

ELM That is the point of Vampires. They feed on us.

ELM We aren't the top of the food chain.

@KittyPryde yeah, if you bend the archetype too far, you can break it and then everyone wonders why you're calling it something it isn't

Greeny You need to continue with some of the base of said myths, otherwise the level/change you bring it to alters all the reader sees. Not just some

rosemerry vampires don't glitter

@Peter well, I don't much care for vampires of any kind. I don't see the point, I guess. But that's just me. Yet the comment about Ferengi and Klingon as being the invention of a recent author makes them different (and perhaps non-archetypal) from vampires

@ChaosTitan Both good points, Kitty and Greeny

@Peter which have a cultural mythos behind them

SaraAnn I think 'Twilight' was on the brink of becoming unbelievable. I personally don't like the book so I may be biased, but still.

ELM Then don't call them vamps, but that doesn't detract from the story. My opinion

ELM Meyers did.

ELM glitter that is.

TheIT What are some of the basic vamp cliches?

SaraAnn Sucking blood, obviously

@KittyPryde black capes! funny accents!

@ChaosTitan Meyers is also an anomaly and not something by which other writers should measure their own stories.

TheIT Drinking blood, immortality, can't go out in sun

Horserider I'm sure that the writer has the right to put whatever spin on vamps that they want. Even if they want to make them glitter

@KittyPryde being lustful for blood and other things

rosemerry no sunlight, can't see reflection in mirror

ELM White skin.

Horserider Ice cold

ELM Personally, my vamps would only go white when they needed to eat.

rosemerry garlic allergy

@KittyPryde being dead, averse to crosses

ELM fear the cross.

TheIT Shapeshifting

Indi Highly mannered interpersonal reationships among them

SaraAnn Some kind of 'super power' like with strength or speed

rosemerry male vamps hate crosses while female vamps hate fire

Greeny can't see reflection, wtf? On no level does that make sense to me...

Horserider Shapeshifting?

ELM Though I liked I am Legend's treatment of that.

rosemerry I saw that once don't know if it's a cliche

@ChaosTitan There was recently a thread in the Horror forum that dissected the various vampire myths and why so many of them can be ignored.

TheIT No reflection is part of the Dracula story, I think

ELM Shapeshifting - they turn into bats

rosemerry infertility

@Peter you mean, they AREN’T bats?

TheIT Bats, clouds of mist, wolves

* Peter is so disappointed

TheIT Does that make them batmen?

ELM I didn't recall wolves.

Indi Greeny, none of it makes the least bit of sense.

SaraAnn But isn't Dracula the most famous of the vamp stories?

Horserider Wolves IT?

TheIT Might be wrong about wolves...

ELM No nylon suit with fake muscles. Not Batmen.

rosemerry rejected by God

@KittyPryde also, vamps are frequently a not so subtle metaphor for stds, homosexuality, and other formerly taboo subjects

@ChaosTitan So by using all of these different myths in one story, does that automatically take the vampire from archetype to cliche?

ELM Rejected by God is a play on fallen Angels.

Greeny True Indi, but we wouldn't discuss it otherwise...infertility...wtf happened there?

ELM Chaos, not necessarily.

rosemerry I saw it in another movie

TheIT They're undead. Hard to reproduce normally

rosemerry they don't age

ELM Well, they can try and lots of fun's been had with that.

@ChaosTitan But not all vampires are presented as undead versions of humans.

@KittyPryde Alright, wise writers, we're switching up the topic again: Wise Old Mentors. Go!

ELM I love Grandpa.

TheIT I've got a wise young mentor. Does that count?

ELM It's the whole listen to those who've gone before. It's good advice.

TheIT My mage is my "anti-Gandalf" character.

Greeny Prophesy-type mentors...gets boring

Horserider Always has to be a wise old mentor. Teaches MC everything they need to know

Indi They have to have some other authority

@KittyPryde well, you've subverted a cliche, there, TheIT. Bonus Points!

rosemerry Everyone goes to this person for advice and whatever they say they follow

ELM Only if they've gone before.

@KittyPryde one bad cliche is the mentor who withholds important info for ages

ELM TheIT, one of the folks on AW has a character Ilfayne. Love that wise-ass

ELM wise man

Indi The Oracle Matrix is my favorite

TheIT For me, it's my character "Gideon"

@BahamutBrat My mentor does very little teaching in the time from of my novel

ELM Why the Oracle?

@KittyPryde especially when he reveals the info right before he dies

TheIT Wise old mentors

@BahamutBrat It works nicely I think

ELM I prefer the Mr. Miyagi (from Karate Kid) types to the Yoda types.

Indi Because she doesn't give a straight answer. She tells neo that he knows, and lets him tell her

TheIT Part of the problem is the WOM would be too powerful if they actually did anything other than advise

Greeny what makes the person stand out, I mean how can you really trust their judgement...

TheIT The WOM could just save the day. Why bother with the hero?

rosemerry I read of one in a Meave Binchy book who was a recluse nun and decided that she wasn't as wise as she believed and rejoined a convent

@KittyPryde obfuscation is another somewhat cliched aspect (a Mentor who says confusing stuff or makes it hard for the hero to know what's going on)

ELM What about having to earn your way?

Indi It must be plausible when revealed

Horserider Because if the WOM saved the day the story would be without a hero and that would be boring

TheIT Obfuscation, oh, yeah. Too many riddles.

@Peter Gandalf is WOM though, right? and he didn't save the day a lot.

ELM The teacher that makes you do crazy stuff that you don't understand, but it turns out to be the most important lesson.

SaraAnn I'd say Gandalf is the best WOM ever x]. He seems perfect, always talking in riddles, yet heroic too

TheIT At least Miyagi got to fight, too

Indi I would give my eyeteeth to have something as powerful as the Oracle scene

ELM I thought Gandalf was mostly a jerk.

ELM Fatherly jerk, but not nice.

@BahamutBrat Book or movie?

TheIT To get to WOM status, the char must have gone through a lot, but they're not allowed to use it in the current story

SaraAnn Movie. Sadly I'm not a patient enough teen to read the book.

TheIT it's nice if the WOM makes mistakes

ELM Must read the book. I say it's always best to see with your own mind's eye, before you see someone else's vision.

Indi What about a computer as WOM?

@BahamutBrat Crippling them can help reduce that physical prowess

@KittyPryde what's the WOM's personality tend to be like? And do they have to be that way?

ELM Unless otherwise not possible.

TheIT Crochety old men

@BahamutBrat Computer WOMs are pretty common

TheIT Reluctant guides

ELM KittyPryde, that depends on the personality of your writer.

@BahamutBrat That's a good thought Indi

Indi Intimidating

ELM it has to mean something to you.

@KittyPryde well, i don't often see a sweet fluffy kind WOM

SaraAnn Some tend to be....tough? I guess you could say.

@KittyPryde for instance

rosemerry old person trapped in a child's body so that people don't take them seriously

Indi I'm doing it. Any help?

ELM You make your WOM the one that works for you.

@BahamutBrat Doing what, Indi?

TheIT Keeper of secret knowledge.

Indi Computer as WOM

TheIT The one who sets the farmboy on the path

TheIT Hidden powers

@KittyPryde someone who knows lots of stuff but isn't revealing all of it

ELM Computers are just the compilation of everyone who programmed them.

ELM Does that change in AI?

Indi Unless they are AI

rosemerry a sentient computer

TheIT Computers are stupid. They do exactly what they're told

ELM I don't think it changes in AI

ELM They are still bound by the minds that created them.

ELM Much like you will grow up to be your mother/father.

ELM It's a curse.

TheIT The trick is knowing what you've told the computer to do.

Horserider Not really. They develop desires and personalities of their own

TheIT So far, only in SF

@Peter Computers aren't wise. How can they be WOMs?

ELM Just like children.

TheIT Computers are repositories of knowledge, therefore WOM-like

Horserider In one of Anne McCaffrey's books a computer is a WOM
Indi What if the computer is practically omniscient, and has enough processors to show sentience

ELM I agree IT

Hollow Computers can be wise.

@Peter I disagree

Hollow Like a good version of HAL

rosemerry it could be like in Asimov's where the robots take the 3 laws to the extreme
and don't let the humans do anything

ELM computers can't be omniscient.

SaraAnn But computers have no life, no past experiences. How can a computer be WOM-like in those ways?

ELM just really well filled with facts

rosemerry the internets

@Peter I agree with SaraAnn

ELM The internet is based on the people, not the systems

@KittyPryde I'm switching things up again, folks. Elves...go!

@Peter whew

@BahamutBrat Orlando Bloom!

rosemerry why do they have to so fricken pretty all the time

TheIT Keebler elves or Tolkien?

@Peter Big, people-sized elves or little teeny ones living under mushroom caps?

TheIT Smurfs!

ELM That's the thing with writing, if it doesn't matter to humans (readers) it doesn't matter.

SaraAnn smurfs are elves...?

ELM Are they tall or short.

@KittyPryde well, a question: why are we so enamored with pointy-eared beautiful skinny fey folk?

ELM cute or elegant

ELM I get lost on them.

TheIT Well, smurfs are sort of elf-like

SaraAnn i prefer mine tall, that's always how i've pictured them

@Peter what the heck ARE elves?

rosemerry can't there be ugly elves who are not evil and pretty elves who are

@Peter and why are they?

TheIT Elf cliches = long lived, artistic, beauty

@KittyPryde i have never seen an ugly elf!

ELM What if they are tall for them, but only 3 feet high for us.

@BahamutBrat Kitty- Because we'd like to be such an 'ideal' race?

@Peter I've never seen an elf period

rosemerry orcs are sort of elves

TheIT Oh, for elves, also Neil Gaiman

SaraAnn I think people like elves so much because if you make an elven character, usually they are in touch with themselves and the things around them more.

rosemerry they turned to the dark side

ELM For some reason I always picture idealized Japanese when I think of elves.

TheIT And Jim Butcher

TheIT Elves came from different archetypes, too.

SaraAnn I know when I create an elf I tend to put a bit of what I'd be like without the fear of being embarrassed or whatnot

TheIT "The Little People"

ELM I like the idea of devoting yourself to pursuing perfection.

nevada in Mark del Franco's series, Elves are totaly dicks who fought alongside the Nazis in WWII

TheIT Elves don't get embarassed.

ELM At least I like it on characters.

rosemerry I'll have to read that one nevada

rosemerry that sounds awesome

ELM Elves don't show embarrassment.

nevada unshapely things, is the first one i think

SaraAnn Which is why i put as much emotion into them as i can. When they're happy, they dance. When they're sad, they weep.

ELM that doesn't mean they aren't embarrassed.

@KittyPryde Terry Pratchett somewhat turns the cliche elf on its head with evil vicious elves who don't have human traits like compassion or kindness ever

TheIT Dungeons & Dragons has helped form elf cliches, too

TheIT Pratchett's elves are more like the mythology of Faerie

ELM yes they have.

ELM D&D

rosemerry like being able to kill 82 enemies with one bow shot

rosemerry lol

TheIT Twilight lands

ELM Yeah, not crazy about BS abilities. I prefer my heroes to get bruised.

TheIT Never bargain with an elf

rosemerry their magic is attached to nature

@Peter Y'know? I have a big problem with things like elves and fairies and trolls and such... mainly because if I included one in a story, I would probably make a hash out of it. Like aren't elves supposed to be green with pointy ears, and if not, why not, and does it really matter?

TheIT Nature, not humanity

rosemerry so how would their magic work in a place like New York City or another large city where not much nature abounds

Hollow They're not all green

@KittyPryde do you think elves in modern fantasy take more from Tolkien or more from original elf legends?

ELM I don't know the original elf legends.

rosemerry with the movies out I'd say Tolkien

rosemerry but I don't really know.

Greeny there are many many original elf legends

TheIT Nowadays, if you say "elf", I think the reaction would be Tolkien or D& D

SaraAnn i actually havent read a lot of elves

Hollow I've never seen a green elf.

SaraAnn i saw the Lord Of The Rings movie, played warcraft, and I was hooked on elves.

ELM I tend to believe that all legends have basis, anything that is repeated over and over in many cultures must have some fact to it.

rosemerry The Jolly Green Giant who has the vegetables

ELM Dragons.

TheIT But I like some of the other takes which harken back to Faerie

ELM Every culture.

ELM why not elves.

@KittyPryde ahh, D&D, another good point. D&D is essentially a repository of archetype and cliche

TheIT Titania from Midsummer Night's Dream

TheIT D&D started with archetypes and put its own spin on it

rosemerry Wasn't Puck an elf?

@KittyPryde puck is a fairy, isn't he?

TheIT Where does the line blur between elf and fairy?

@KittyPryde titania and oberon are fairies too, right?

@KittyPryde fairies can fly...?

rosemerry yeah I believe so

rosemerry fairies have wings

TheIT Some fairies can

rosemerry and if you stop believing in them they die

ELM puck was a fairy

TheIT Not all have wings

rosemerry but you can clap your hands and they'll live again

rosemerry so says Peter Pan

TheIT If you're Tinkerbell. The author set the rules and stuck with them

@KittyPryde We're flipping the topic again, hang on to your hats: Dragons! Go!

ELM Big or small.

TheIT Gold? Where's the gold?

rosemerry I like the PERN dragons

ELM I like huge, but I'm guessing more like a large bear.

@KittyPryde great big heaps o gold!

@BahamutBrat I hate hate hate when these big lizards are familiars

TheIT Did someone say gold?

rosemerry they were genetically engineered from firelizards

@BahamutBrat and submissive to the soft apes

@BahamutBrat that run around and command them

ELM Dragons good or bad

SaraAnn Dragons fascinate me. they come in so many different shapes, sizes, colors. they're amazing

@Jed i love dragons

Hollow I used to love dragons.

TheIT When humans ought to be appetizers, BB?

nevada why do dragons need gold. not like they go to market? where did that cliche come from?

ELM I like the idea of dragons.

@BahamutBrat I love dragons that aren't too cliche

TheIT Dragon's hoard

@BahamutBrat and yes IT, appetizers

Hollow I hate cliche dragons.

rosemerry The Hobbit ?

ELM Because humans want gold.

ELM They get to take our lives, our virgins, and our wealth.

TheIT anyone read "The Dragon and the George"?

@BahamutBrat Nev- I dunno, but something about enjoying shiney metal

Greeny Dragons, are extremely various, but then there are the dragon and knight tales...why did the dragon have to die?

rosemerry I read a short story where a dragon had an imaginary human friend. Because everyone knew that humans didn't exist

ELM In lots of medieval legends the dragon represents the plague.

SaraAnn Because the knight must be made victorious or the village will perish from the ever-hungry dragon.

TheIT I think dragons epitomized evil in the older legends

@Jed st george and the dragon is a good one

SaraAnn *biggest cliche ever* xD

rosemerry what about chinese dragons

@KittyPryde greeny, cause it's the general good humans conquering chaotic evil nature story?

TheIT Plague, that makes sense. Or the devil?

rosemerry they were good luck

Greeny how come they aren't doing what they know to do...lions hunt and kill but knights don't hunt them down

kilana I've heard of that book but haven't read it.

Hollow Different cultures.

ELM St. George killed the dragon. It wasn't good.

nevada Wyverns were bearers of the plague, not dragons

TheIT Eastern dragons have different connotations than western dragons

ELM I like water dragons.

ELM Chinese that is.

@Peter isn't Jabba the Hutt a type of dragon archetype?

@Jed not for the dragon

SaraAnn Knights don't exist anymore, unless you count the ones in Camo in Iraq.

rosemerry yeah I want to see more eastern dragons

TheIT Chinese dragons are considered good, aren't they?

TheIT Wise mentors? WODs?

rosemerry Falcor in Neverending Story

rosemerry he was a luck dragon

ELM Because the Romans rounded up lions and killed them in spectacle to prove the might of Rome

Greeny I find it interesting, how they are fierce creatures but extremely beautiful...almost tauntingly...

TheIT Dragonheart

@BahamutBrat I think so Peter

Hollow "YEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!"

SaraAnn I think dragons can be good or bad, depending on the situations

ELM A dragon has to be more than what Rome can kill.

paperbacklove Mushu (from Mulan) was technically a dragon, and he was good.

@BahamutBrat He even had the princess in chains

@BahamutBrat Bad dragon

TheIT Smaug

Hollow Mulan was one of my fav movies as a kid.

ELM Right, but eastern vs western

ELM Asian philosophy says that nature is our friend and we must learn from it and it will protect us. Western philosophy says it is our manifest destiny to conquer nature.

ELM SciFi versus Fantasy.

ELM Western versus Eastern

TheIT Dragons are reptilian, therefore serpentlike, therefore in the west considered evil? Reminiscent of Satan?

TheIT In the middle ages, at least?

rosemerry The closest SF dragons I can think of are the dragons of PERN in Anne McCaffrey's books

ELM hence Western dragons are bad while Eastern dragons are good.

Greeny Good point IT, very good point...

rosemerry they were genetically engineered from the small native firelizards on the planet

@KittyPryde Alright, the Ops are hitting the Sci-Fi button. Let's talk Inhuman Robots, Robots Who Want to be Human, and AIs!

nevada Marvin!

TheIT Data!

Greeny I Robot?

rosemerry David, from AI

ELM Robots represent the best/worst of humanity

SaraAnn I Robot is like, the perfect description of that.

ELM once again, they are an extension of their creators.

rosemerry Bicentennial Man

TheIT Yay Marvin, but Marvin doesn't want to be human. "Life, don't talk to me about life."

ELM Robots are meant to make us see ourselves.

@KittyPryde David from AI, and lots of other robots, are Pinocchio characters

rosemerry Red Dwarf

Indi Sheen in Piers Anthony's Split Infintity

SaraAnn But robots also usually tend to go to the bad side and betray their creators

TheIT Cylons

NYBrit I love Red Dwarf

ELM Which says the writer feared his creation.

Hollow Yay robots.

TheIT The Berserkers

Hollow My MC is an android, like David.

Hollow Sans mommy complex.

rosemerry Iron Man the animated movie

Indi Mine is a rendered human neural net

ELM Haven't seen it.

Greeny there should be more good robots that turn against evil owners/humans

rosemerry D.A.R.Y.L. (The Iron Giant)

ELM What about a robot created by the net?

paperbacklove What about the Iron Giant movie?

NYBrit robocop?

@Peter HAL

ELM three laws prohibit.

TheIT Yay Iron Giant!

TheIT Three laws safe

ELM I liked Iron Giant

Indi Whay do you mean ELM?

@Jed Data

ELM mean by which

TheIT Asimov's Three laws?

NYBrit Robocop had the same rules I think

Indi About the robot from the net

@Peter Read Doctorow's "I Robot" and his "I Row Boat" ... both not-so-reverent takes on Asimov

TheIT "Must be just a glitch."

ELM What if the computers talking to each other on the net created their own robot.

ELM So not of our making but theirs.

ELM No three laws perhaps.

TheIT Terminator

nevada skynet did

rosemerry nanotechnology

ELM I guess I forgot that

SaraAnn sorta like in Eagle Eye, how the computer goes haywire? or in many other movies? x]

ELM i like nano tech

rosemerry War Games

Hollow The one from I, Robot kind of does

ELM especially since it will be with us soon enough

Hollow At least it changes all the new NS5s

TheIT Ever notice how AI's always want to take over because we poor humans are incompetent?

Hollow It is logical.

Hollow And we are

nevada anyone remember the movie about the house that was wired up as an AI and it fell in love with the owner's wife?

TheIT Forbin Project

ELM I still think what makes robots relevant in storytelling is what they say about us.

nevada old old movie

Hollow It was mentioned before

rosemerry I remember a movie like that

Hollow Impregnated her?

TheIT nevada, I think that's been done in several forms even on The Simpsons

NYBrit The original Doctor Who series had a great story called Robots of Death. Had the same rules that robots can't harm humans....until a computer genius who identified more with robots reprogrammed them

nevada Yes that’s right. I think I mentioned it before hollow

rosemerry the woman had to tell the house if you really love me you'll let me leave or something

Horserider isn't that a scary movie nevada? I’ve heard of it, but I don’t watch scary movies

TheIT Demon Seed?

nevada not really rider. I barely remember it

@KittyPryde so...can robots love or provide a decent simulation of love?

NYBrit Dean Koontz wrote the novel but I can't remember the title

@Peter Herbert wrote a story about a hive mind. In a lot of ways, because it was composed of individually mindless humans, that together were a whole, an entity, it seems to me a sort of Artificial Intelligence.

NYBrit wasn't the robot called Proteus?

@KittyPryde or must they be emotionless and cold?

SaraAnn I don't think robots are capable of loving because they do not have a real mind

@Peter I guess the point is, does AI need to be machinery?

rosemerry Outer Limits has a few episodes about sex and love dealing with robots and AI

TheIT First I want to see a robot provide a decent simulation of not being robots

@Peter or can it be biological too? and if so, is it still a part of the archetype?

TheIT Cyborg

@Peter well, Cyborgs are part biological, part machine

Indi Or humans who have been exported to code

rosemerry The Borg

TheIT Archetype for robot = something created

Hollow Cyborg is usually a human with machine parts, isn't it?

@Peter the borg are cyborgs

@Peter right, Hollow

Hollow Not the other way around

SaraAnn The Borg are humans turned into robots by force.

TheIT Could create something biological, too. Why not?

NYBrit the movie was called Demon Seed

SaraAnn and technically Borg cannot love because of their simulation

@Peter what about a planet-wide colony of bacteria? Individually, the cells are nothing, but together they become an entity.

@Peter does that fit the archetype of an AI?

rosemerry like the buggers in Ender's game?

Hollow Ender's Game

Indi If it grows, Peter.

@Peter kinda, yeah, Rosemerry

nevada replicators in stargate

Indi If we grew it, I mean

@Peter of course it grows, Indi... it's alive

TheIT whole is greater than sum of its parts

Hollow Hive Mind != Artificial Intelligence imho

@Peter oh I see

Greeny People today are too stubborn to let a robot actually be able to love, if they can then what makes us different...I think it would be interesting watching someone fall in love w/ a human like robot...

Greeny there would be conflicts a many

@Peter well, does the archetype mean the AI is created by us?

TheIT Hive mind also implies bees

Indi I think so

rosemerry and Ants

TheIT Makes more sense to me for a human to love a robot than vice versa

Indi If we found a planet of hive mind bacteria, that would be an alien

Greeny theIT-thats why it is hard for them to 'let' a robot fall in love...our human stubborn arrogance

TheIT Speaking as someone who works with computers, it'll be a loooong time before we create a robot which could love. That said, I don't mind reading about it.

@Peter Well, my friends. It is now the end of the hour

@Peter Thanks to you all for participating in tonight's Live Chat. The 'official' portion of the chat is now concluded. However, you may continue this discussion or any other you like. Look in the SF/F Forum Chat Discussion thread in a few days for a transcript of tonight's chat.

@Peter Your Official Live Chat staff would like your opinions about how well this evening's event worked. We welcome your comments and critiques. You may post them here, or if you wish you may post them in the Discussion thread. Thanks again--this was fun!

Kitty Pryde · Mar 6, 2009

March 5 Chat Log: Fantasy Wars, Battles, and Combat

Transcript from March 5, 2009

Topic: Fantasy Wars, Battles, and Combat

Peter Let's begin with Proposed Topic #1, which is: How do magic and speculative elements add to individual combat? To melees and battles? How do we add in these elements while still focusing on the characters?

Maxmordon I consider it is hard, not only to focus on characters but on any individual during battle.

Horserider Magic adds a whole other dimension to war. there's not just swords and horseback fighting.

BahamutBrat Well, I found that battles really helped me understand my magic system

BahamutBrat The little details and logistics really came into play

JasonTudor Fight or flight

JasonTudor Or somehow foreshadow or contribute to another plot point

Maxmordon except in cases where the hero plays to be Alexander The Great, most battles are about the factions and not individuals...

BahamutBrat Max, I disagree

Maxmordon please, tell me why.

BahamutBrat Every individual in a war thinks about themselves

BahamutBrat their desires (stay alive)

BahamutBrat their effects on the war

BahamutBrat everyone has a story

Maxmordon they have pretty much the same desire in most cases

BahamutBrat and a role in morale

BahamutBrat Some have pride in what they are fighting for

BahamutBrat some are waiting for a chance to desert

Maxmordon ah...

Peter some just follow orders

Maxmordon so, we should see inside the phalanx, then?

JasonTudor As to how they add to combat, they make it more dynamic

Maxmordon outside the uniform...

Peter because "just following orders" is how you can handle the horrors of what it is you're involved with.

tjwriter If you've already established a relationship between your reader and your character, then your reader is going to be very interested in what happens to that character, but probably not so much for the nameless characters. That's very individual.

BahamutBrat Yes to more dynamic

Tig or the robots they might be fighting

JasonTudor There's also the element o fthe reader wanting that power for
him/herself e.g. the ability to fly or be invisible

JasonTudor As a mode of escapism

BahamutBrat yeah, if we don't have sympathy for characters then we aren't really worried if the robots win

BahamutBrat alright, so back to magic battles

Maxmordon Is magic an atomic bomb? He who controls the magic controls the fate of the war?

BahamutBrat Sometimes, yes

JasonTudor No. An atom bomb is science

JasonTudor He who controls the monies and information controls the fate of war

BahamutBrat some stories are about the non magic folks overcoming the magic bloke

Maxmordon I know, Jason. But a way to say that is too powerful

tjwriter It depends I think. I was wondering about some examples where you really feel it worked.

BahamutBrat The hobbitses vs Sauron for example

BahamutBrat or in Tigana, where the people overthrow the wizard emperors

JasonTudor Or Ewoks vs Stormtroopers

Peter We might want to divide our discussion between epic medieval-style warfare and more modern style.

Peter ...or future style

Maxmordon or ancient or Napoleonic....

JasonTudor Future style warfare is information based if we chart a course from what's modern now forward

JasonTudor That is...

Peter The reasons for war haven't changed much since there were first wars... but the HOW of fighting them has.

Tig starships are different than ground forces

Peter hard to have pike men in space.

Peter difficult to fight wars in trenches dug on Mars.

JasonTudor Mostly to do with how combatants see the wars vs fight them

Maxmordon though interesting...

Peter but Frodo can do either of those

Maxmordon Bilbo got a hit on his head and missed the battle

Maxmordon in The Hobbit

Peter 'cause Frodo (et al) is in Middle Earth.

Peter so if you can make up a place--can you also make up the style of battle?

JasonTudor Like Dune with the voiceboxes?

BahamutBrat certainly, though the spec elements can mess up your style

BahamutBrat add dragons and suddenly you need to study aerial combat

tjwriter What if the battle is all magic? I'm thinking Holly Lisle's Talyn here, btw.

Peter ah, whereas before the dragon there was none?

Maxmordon perhaps it could be since we humans have had wars for so long that... it’s just part of us in some sorts?

BahamutBrat add fireballs and you have a form of archery or gunfire to sort out the tactics of

BahamutBrat yep Peter

Maxmordon There was a series of novels that was WWII in a fantasy setting

JasonTudor Right so ...

JasonTudor Ground

JasonTudor Air

JasonTudor Sea

JasonTudor Ranged

JasonTudor Hand to hand

tjwriter Mental, if using magic only

BahamutBrat Which series, Max?

Peter so what Baha is talking about isn't the method of the warfare itself, so much, as it is the writing of it: What the author needs to do to "get it right."

Maxmordon I think it was Darkness by Harry Turtledove

JasonTudor I’d agree with that

BahamutBrat And as for wars being part of us, yes, in that fighting over resources is universal

Tig or just a power play

Tig want to rule it all

JasonTudor Wars are a means of diplomacy

JasonTudor Diplomacy by other means

Maxmordon dragons instead of airplanes, kings instead of presidents, United States is a Finnish speaking South-Asian country

JasonTudor So, wars are a form of politics

Peter How many here have attempted to write a truly epic battle? One with thousands of combatants, politics, orders, logistics, strategy?

Maxmordon true, Jason.

BahamutBrat Speak softly and carry a big stick

JasonTudor That's deterrence, BB

BahamutBrat ah

JasonTudor That's what Strategic Air Command stood for

Maxmordon I am working on my head to write one in a distant future...

JasonTudor 10,000 nuclear weapons that COULD be launched

BahamutBrat Peter- my MC is stuck behind a wall during the epic battle

JasonTudor Something similar could be written for SF/F

Tig I did work on one a while back

BahamutBrat it saved me a lot of trouble

tjwriter I haven't written one, Peter

JasonTudor And was in the Elric books

JasonTudor The Dragon Riders

Maxmordon I still don't know if my culture has horses

BahamutBrat What limits do we need to set up in our magic system? IE- how to keep two wizards from facing off and seeing who can nuke the other faster? (Though that can be fun sometimes)

JasonTudor Same as anything else

BahamutBrat That's an important detail, Max

JasonTudor Resources

JasonTudor Time

Horserider There should always be limits

BahamutBrat you might have to write it one way and see

JasonTudor Strength

JasonTudor And so on

Peter I am writing a series of stories that take place in a major conflict. I imagine what might be the reasons and outcomes of the war in my backstory. But each individual story only deals with a very narrow point of view... one or two characters at most.

JasonTudor All the variables affect those weapons too

JasonTudor Since in effect the Wizards are weapons

tjwriter Other tasks that the wizards are responsible for in the war

JasonTudor If they didn’t need to regen or sleep or something, then no one would care

Maxmordon I have an idea for my next WIP

BahamutBrat Emotional vulnerabilities can be useful too

JasonTudor Right. So can handicaps

tjwriter There's a war going on in my story, but so far it's just in the background

Peter same situation with me, tj

BahamutBrat Alright, shall we discuss the next topic?

Maxmordon It's about two civilizations; one is pretty much 1930's England and the other one is still dwelling on the Dark Ages

Maxmordon and the cultural crash

BahamutBrat When dealing with all-out war, how do speculative elements affect the logistics? Supply trains, resources, and so on. And how can spec elements affect training of soldiers, magic creatures, and generals who may not be familiar with magic (in some worlds)?

Tig well if they don't have the magic and the others do, it could be a rude awakening

Peter wizards can affect the total outcome of a battle with the wave of a hand

BahamutBrat Is one civilization going to invade the other, Max?

Maxmordon Exactly, Pete.

tjwriter resources & supplies would depend on how self-sufficient each side is, what stockpiles they have, etc.

Peter of course that smacks of Deus ex machina

JasonTudor Logistics are like any other logistics -- how are the supply and resupply line managed

JasonTudor How were they prepared before the battle

Maxmordon yes, the one who is more advanced is having problems with
labor unions and resources... and they invade them

JasonTudor Can things be teleported

BahamutBrat Teleportation is useful

Peter Now really folks: How important are those logistics to the story you're telling?

JasonTudor The best societies have the most efficient infrastructure

JasonTudor That would be the same in magical logistics

BahamutBrat Magically altered work animals are also useful

Peter does the reader really need to know that stuff to understand that Sergeant Schultz is scared?

BahamutBrat Very important- logistics make or break a war

JasonTudor The question was about logistics, not emotional appeal

BahamutBrat they don't need all the details, but the writer needs to be aware

Peter no doubt, Baha, but are they important to the story?

Maxmordon since the other one hasn't even got the ballista right they end up losing immediately, but they try to hit them from inside: sabotage, car bombs and whatnot...

JasonTudor And Schultz KNOWS NUUUUUTING anyway.

Peter I'm thinking: probably not

Maxmordon Who's Shultz?

Peter heh

BahamutBrat They add challenges to warfare

tjwriter The reader will care that Wizard Bob needs his Voodoo Berries to
cast magic and the other side has cutoff the mountain pass that delivers them.

Peter he was a character in a 1970s TV show

BahamutBrat obstacles and conflict for the generals

BahamutBrat soldiers who are tired of walking and absolutely starving

JasonTudor Gandalf was never all-powerful

Maxmordon Hogan's Heroes'

JasonTudor Nor Merlin

Peter yep

JasonTudor They were fallible

JasonTudor And more interesting

BahamutBrat and then, *poof* Gandalf has the eagles drop in some elf bread

Maxmordon Deus Ex Machina

JasonTudor They had logistical fallacies too

JasonTudor Gandalf had to run back and get things from time to time

JasonTudor So that led to WTF is Gandalf moments

Maxmordon There's a list on TV Tropes about logistical fallacies on war tactics

Horserider You'd think he'd take everything with him

Maxmordon that's why I never liked the Narnia books.

Peter Jason, Gandalf has his own set of plot coupons to redeem...and they have little to do with the story line.

JasonTudor Good point

Horserider Nothing wrong with the Narnia books Max

JasonTudor But still speaks to BB's original question

JasonTudor Logistics

Peter Frodo's plot coupon (Macguffin) is the ring, which he must return to Mordor so that Sauron doesn't get hold of it to redeem himself.

Maxmordon I mean, I like them... but is bothersome after Calormen/Telmarine/etc. fought so much to just have a giant Lion come and calling the shots

Horserider I love Aslan....he's like the ruler

Maxmordon "snaps fingers" there, the Narnians won

Peter I wonder: are those conflicts, such as Max brings up in Narnia, or Frodo and his ring problem, ...Are they really war or battles?

Peter in LotR there IS a battle, in the last volume...over the kingdom of men

JasonTudor In any case, if one writes war, then one understands logistics keep the Army moving. And food. And money, And fuel. And supplies

Maxmordon Narnia had battles and show us how empty it can be with magic...

JasonTudor I thought the conflicts were internal.

Horserider Max, well they would've lost without Aslan which would not
have made for a good story.

JasonTudor Character studies, more "I think I can I think I can" stuff

Maxmordon That's true, Horserider. Better talk to this later

Horserider Right, off topic

BahamutBrat Alright, what about the characters?

BahamutBrat How do they train with magic?

BahamutBrat Or deal with magic when they have none?

JasonTudor Frodo never does

JasonTudor Elric does throughout his entire journey

BahamutBrat but he faces lots of magic or fantastic creatures

JasonTudor But that's mostly so he can stay alive

BahamutBrat He has to get smarter as he rolls through the plot

BahamutBrat even simple Sam has to unravel a mess and rescue Frodo

JasonTudor He plays the patriarchal role, Sam does

Maxmordon When I saw Lord of the Rings with my stepdad he thought Sam was the real hero and Frodo the pesky sidekick

BahamutBrat haha

JasonTudor Frodo's kinda whiny the whole way through

BahamutBrat Also for training, how do we have our heroes learn/strengthen their magic without using it as an excuse to dump on the reader?

JasonTudor "I can't do it! My feet hurt!"

Maxmordon Since Sam actually shows larger effort, though Frodo was more internal...

BahamutBrat Frodo was very internal and symbolic

JasonTudor BB, necessity would dictate all uses there. But I enjoy reader dumps from time to time, especially when it gives details into something new and fresh to excite my senses

Maxmordon Perhaps learning with them?

BahamutBrat That's true. And combining it with conflict and action can pay off

Maxmordon It's quite hard to explain something without sounding a class on Quenya

Maxmordon I mean, in fantasy like a magic system

BahamutBrat We also need to find our characters’ limits I think. The hero who wins every battle by pulling a new spell out of his hat gets old fast

Tig maybe it is a matter of him learning he has powers he didn't know he
had

Maxmordon "coughs"Eragon"Coughs"

BahamutBrat exactly

BahamutBrat Tig- that can be useful at times

BahamutBrat early on

Tig I agree

Maxmordon Not only learning the magic, but knowing how to use it

BahamutBrat later in the game, it gets toward deus ex machina

Tig because the audience learns as he does

Horserider Knowing how to use it right

Maxmordon make him a tactician

Tig yes, he might not be proficient at first

Maxmordon become a tactician with him, perhaps learning from older battles? I

Maxmordon That is something used quite a lot in real life but seldom in fiction I think

BahamutBrat Alright, lets move on to the next topic.

BahamutBrat How do we best integrate the background info (war worldbuilding) into our writing without dumping? What situations could highlight the problems our characters face during war time?

BahamutBrat And forcing your characters to learn from mistakes is a great literary tool

Maxmordon indeed

BahamutBrat Alright, kind of what we were talking about with logistics

Maxmordon and explains as well about the ones you're fighting against

BahamutBrat Providing the important details to our readers

Maxmordon indeed!

BahamutBrat But this also applies to how fireballs work

BahamutBrat why robots hate humans

Maxmordon Food shortage, perhaps; economical malcontent...

Maxmordon the soldiers won't woke up one day to another at the battlefield. You see a lot of things during mobilization

JasonTudor Robots v Humans is racism

JasonTudor Or commerce

BahamutBrat mobilization?

JasonTudor Robots as slaves

JasonTudor The key would be

Maxmordon yes, exactly

JasonTudor When situations present themselves

JasonTudor How to integrate the magicks or the tech into the things

JasonTudor Shaving for instance

JasonTudor Or bathing

JasonTudor Or something integral to the story

JasonTudor Communicating one to another

Maxmordon Communication is a key point

JasonTudor The background info ...

JasonTudor Comes as it is integrated into the plot points that matters

JasonTudor Vs giving readers 500 words on how cool the acid from the dragon's breath is

JasonTudor Injuries

JasonTudor BTW

JasonTudor would highlight a problem faced during wartime

JasonTudor How does the crew deal with these

BahamutBrat Injuries are great

JasonTudor Who is the corpsman

BahamutBrat And help show the stakes

JasonTudor Medic

JasonTudor Right

BahamutBrat war kills. war injures

JasonTudor And it shows character sacrifice

JasonTudor Luke's hand wasn't cut off just cuz

JasonTudor It showed a link between father and son

JasonTudor personalities and traits

BahamutBrat And yet in that instance, technology saved the day and gave him a new hand

Maxmordon I haven't seen Star Wars, so not sure about it

JasonTudor Right

JasonTudor So it showed the yin and yang of it

JasonTudor But

JasonTudor The technology was already present

JasonTudor So, that was just normal in his world

JasonTudor Not advanced

JasonTudor But the shearing of his hand was the link between he and Vader

JasonTudor And that's made clearer in the third film

Peter Been thinking of something while this conversation has been going on...

Peter We have a story going, and decide we want the background of it to be a war. But the story isn't about the war, it's about a person, say, who has to do whatever it is the story demands, with this war in the background.

Peter The character has to overcome obstacles thrust in his or her way by the war, in order to complete a quest or whatever.

Peter How is this any different than say, Anne Frank, and how can we alter the story using fantastical elements so that it is?

JasonTudor It's not

JasonTudor The war is a backdrop

Peter yes

Maxmordon It makes me think about The Good Soldier Svejk (by Jaroslav Hasek). It's about the main character, but with WWI as background and you understand pretty much of it without knowing anything about the Austro-Hungarian Empire

JasonTudor It's not the story

Peter but our story is a fantasy.... or we want it to be one

Jed How much should a characters thoughts and emotions be added to descriptions of the battle as it is happening?

Peter or SF, either way

JasonTudor Booyah, Max said it

BahamutBrat It also depends on how much the war gets in the way of the character's goals

Peter so in that regard, mystical elements has little bearing on the plot

BahamutBrat I think there needs to be a balance, Jed

Maxmordon You just learn what you need on the track. Who's the Emperor and his nickname; where are you going and why you have to go there. It's pretty straightforward on the direction

Peter could be vampires fighting werewolves and it would still be WWI

Peter for all intents and purposes, that is.

BahamutBrat Thoughts and emotions are critical for empathy and developing stakes

Maxmordon emotions of the MC shape the whole view of the reader

BahamutBrat but the character can't be a paper cut-out jumping between fights

Maxmordon I have read letters from the daughter of a Nazi commander on an historical forum and pretty much spins your conventional views

Jed you can describe the battle in too much detail and forget to add in the MC's thoughts, and what he/she is feeling as it is happening

BahamutBrat Exactly Jed

BahamutBrat As a beta reader I've seen all extremes within the same page or two

Tig when a loved one is killed in the war, it brings out emotions

BahamutBrat and I've had betas nail me for it as well

Jed but you can't dwell on them in the heat of battle

Tig nope, you can't

Tig so you fight for them

BahamutBrat And loss during war is very real

Peter but the war itself is just stage dressing, something to provide conflict for your characters, eh?

BahamutBrat A war where no one important dies is a fantasy

BahamutBrat I think Narnia fails to kill anyone important

Jed how about too much focusing on the MC, rather than what is going on with other characters

Sky good point

Horserider Baha, well if you think about it they couldn't kill off any of the four MCs. there couldn't be two kings and two queens of Narnia if one of them died could there?

Tig but some die in harry potter, in later books

Peter I propose this: We almost never write about the war in a fantasy or SF piece. We write about how that war affects one or more of the characters in a story we want to tell.

Horserider There was TOO much death in 7th in my opinion.

BahamutBrat HR- I don't think they kill the fawns or anyone else either

BahamutBrat the beavers, etc

BahamutBrat No one faces loss, just hardship

Maxmordon There was a French filmmaker (Truffaut) who said it was impossible to tell a war story without making it a bit glamorous

Jed should you then create characters, so you can kill some off then?

Horserider Baha, true

Peter heh, Max, that's astute

Maxmordon But what bugs me from Narnia is that is useless hardship... at the end Aslan saves the day. Not them, it was a bit useless...

Tig I think the glamorous bit comes when someone finally wins

BahamutBrat Nope, never create an expendable character

Horserider Without Aslan everyone would've died and that would not have been a good story

Jed deus ex machina

BahamutBrat Every character that dies should be felt as a conflict across chapters

BahamutBrat unless they truly were background, and not a main character's friend

Maxmordon I have give him a character flesh, blood and a reason for the people to care about him... and yet, he dies

Horserider That might happen in Inkheart (if it does don't tell me. i haven't finished the book yet)

BahamutBrat In my WIP, the female supporting character dies. That forced me to give her a hell of a lot of attention

BahamutBrat I had to develop her fully in a short space, because I knew she had no future

Tig yeah

BahamutBrat I think I will go back and treat all my characters as if they all die in the end battle

Maxmordon For some reason most of my MCs commit suicide...

Tig there has to be a feeling of lose, so you have to know the character to feel it

BahamutBrat and one by one I'll understand what they mean to the characters, to the story, and everything else

Jed but what about when you seemingly kill a character and then it is brought back later on. is this cheating the reader?

Peter Okay, in the last five minutes here, what about epic fantasy battles, such as the private conflicts between supe heroes in X-men or the TV show Heroes? The battle is really private: the characters don't fight the world. But their battles do affect the world.

Horserider No, but the reader usually does feel shocked *cough* eldest *cough*

BahamutBrat Unless there was already that possibility, Jed

Dermit I always feel cheated in that situation, Jed

Jed but then is the loss deeply felt, when you know they can be brought back later?

BahamutBrat In Lord of Light most people are reborn

Maxmordon It makes you a sense of familiarity

Maxmordon You're trapped in the trenches with these people

Maxmordon some want glory, others honor and others want to go home

BahamutBrat If you do it right, Jed, it can be

Maxmordon but you just want them to go alright

BahamutBrat but it's very hard to do it right

BahamutBrat not for the meek

Maxmordon and yes, Jed. It would feel cheap

BahamutBrat Private conflicts are wonderful, Peter

Jed a problem with the Heroes series is that

Horserider That's why i'm not sure if i could kill off a character. guess i won't be writing war stories any time soon

BahamutBrat Larger conflicts stem from smaller ones

Maxmordon "I cried for this character and he came back10 pages later"

Maxmordon WWI was the largest family conflict ever seen

BahamutBrat So when you focus on what should be small conflicts, but give everyone superpowers, you have a very complex and tightly woven plot, a la Heroes

Peter It just seems to me that when we talk about a major war (like WWII or the Empire vs Han Solo or whatever), it's backdrop.

Peter But when you have superheroes fighting among themselves...

Peter that's a private conflict

Tig though the whole world might be affected at the end by it

Peter They may not harm one another much, but can wreak havoc on the innocents standing around agape

BahamutBrat which gives the reader (watcher) more reason to feel connected

Peter AND it gives the writer reason to imagine the details of a battle.

BahamutBrat Alright folks, our official chat is officially at a close

Maxmordon yes, since larger battles become backgrounds on their own

BahamutBrat Thank you for coming and thank you to everyone who chimed in

Peter Let's all give BahamutBrat a big hand. We were without KittyPryde tonight and Baha did it almost singlehandedly.

Fenika · Mar 13, 2009

Thanks again to everyone who came. Pthom/Peter and Kitty Pryde, my regular cohorts, were not present and were missed!

This week we discussed hit SF movies: Serenity, The Fifth Element, and Wall-E. Spoilers appear at random!

@BahamutBrat Alright folks, let's start with Serenity

@BahamutBrat What is the theme of the film? And how is the theme illustrated by setting/character/dialogue/plot?

@BahamutBrat including the aliens

Hollow Although they're not really aliens

Hollow The Reavers are humans whacked out

@BahamutBrat This is true

@BahamutBrat So we have a corrupt government

nevada its about yin and yang. you cant have one without the other.

@BahamutBrat who, as we find out later, created Reavers

@BahamutBrat yes, yin and yang

nevada exclusively good either kills or creates reavers

@BahamutBrat which kill

@BahamutBrat and rape

nevada and are everything opposite of what the drug was supposed to do

nevada but when the drug works it kills too

nevada and the crew is yin and yang too. jane is not a good guy but he's essential to the fuction of serenity and it's crew

Hollow There was an unexpected reaction to the air packs, which were designed to make people calmer. Instead it either killed them (making them stop eating and die, or making them increasingly aggressive instead)

Hollow Kinda like zombies, but not dead.

Hollow Just on crack.

@BahamutBrat Yeah, the crew is definitely all over the personality charts

Hollow I liked the crew.

Hollow Especially the Captain

nevada look at river. she's either totally naive or a crazy killing machine. yin and yang personified. i hate to use the words good and evil

@BahamutBrat Let's look at River a minute

@BahamutBrat b/c like the Reavers, she's an example of what science can do in this movie

@BahamutBrat but she's two extremes in one as you say

nevada just like the drug. two extremes

@BahamutBrat so what does this tell us about science and those meddling government folks?

nevada umm stop meddling? lol

Hollow Some of the worst things imaginable are done with the best of intentions.

Hollow That's from some movie

Hollow I can't remember which.

nevada exactly. look at the guy that was after them. whose name i forget

Hollow Yeah me too lol

nevada he thought he was doing good but he did the most horrible things to do it

Hollow He had his beliefs and his drive

nevada the end justifies the means

Hollow Goes to show how powerful and dangerous a single person's beliefs can be

@BahamutBrat The true believer

Hollow Nevermind a community or a nation.

nevada or a government, which in this case ignored everything to do what it thought was "good".

@BahamutBrat Alright, another question- Would this story/plot work WITHOUT the SF/F elements?

nevada no

@BahamutBrat which elements were critical in your mind?

nevada the theme of it would of course, it's a universal theme

nevada but the "plot" wouldnt.

@BahamutBrat corrupt gov.s and yin-yang, yeah

Hollow I agree.

nevada mess too much with nature and it bites you in the ass

@BahamutBrat ah, a popular SF theme I think

Hollow And that the government's always hiding something

@BahamutBrat So- How do the SF/F elements strengthen the story?

Hollow Well gives it a much grander feel

nevada i think we are more likely to buy the premise of a drug that can do that because of the sf elements

@BahamutBrat and how can we apply that to our writing?

nevada and that something like that can happen because it happened on a far away planet so less likely that stories would leak out

Hollow It does increase believability somewhat.

@BahamutBrat Good point, advanced technology can do more

nevada i think it goes towards making the setting serve the plot

nevada dont just put it somewhere. put it somewhere specific where it advances the plot and enhances it

@BahamutBrat natch

nevada for example, what’s that movie where the cartoon princess comes to life? would we have bought that if it had been set in Milwaukee?

nevada it was set in new york because we buy into the fact that anything can happen in new york

@BahamutBrat Enchanted I believe

Hollow Yeah

@BahamutBrat The Princess should have been mugged

nevada so we buy in to the fact that a govt can experiment and hide that experiment so effectively in an sf setting

nevada lol

@BahamutBrat I think the hobo robbed her though, come to think of it

nevada it was a kids movie.

nevada no mugging in kids movies

@BahamutBrat Alright, shall we move on to the Fifth Element?

Hollow I think she just got jacked.

Hollow Sure why not, 15 each

@BahamutBrat What is the theme of the film? And how is the theme illustrated by

@BahamutBrat setting/character/dialogue/plot?

@BahamutBrat and this time there were aliens

@BahamutBrat including the 5th element herself

nevada cool looking aliens

Hollow Speaking of dialogue, loved it in Serenity. All I'm gonna say.

Hollow Bruce Willis was fun

nevada innocence vs weariness. 5th element vs corbin dallas. he's disenchanted, world weary, skeptical, she's naive, innocent

@BahamutBrat There was humor, love, corrupt corporations

nevada hollow joss whedon rocks at dialogue

@BahamutBrat oh, dialogue is a good point. We should talk about that after

@BahamutBrat Good summary, Nev

@BahamutBrat another yin and yang

@BahamutBrat Yet both were happy to put a gun in your face!

nevada I think all good books and movies come down to that. the juxtaposition of two opposing traits

@BahamutBrat Don't piss em off

nevada yes she was a very adaptable innocent

nevada even the monk got in on some action. lol

@BahamutBrat lol

@BahamutBrat Would this story/plot work WITHOUT the SF/F elements?

nevada theme: intelligence is no match for adaptability and experience

@BahamutBrat Absolutely not

nevada no definitely not

Hollow That's usually how it goes

Hollow Bad guy is intelligent

@BahamutBrat There was so much woven in

Hollow But the good guys are flexible

Hollow And experienced

nevada and learned from their mistakes

Hollow Bad guys usually pride themselves on their knowledge or sophistication.

@BahamutBrat And I loved how Leeloo could learn things so quickly

nevada leeloo thats her name

Hollow Like a sponge, she was.

Hollow Multipass

nevada all I could come up with was badaboom

@BahamutBrat I loved when the priest pwned the bad guy

@BahamutBrat 'were are your robots now?'

nevada the priest was fun

Hollow Chris Tucker was fun.

nevada it was a fun movie without resorting to gags. the humour came from the situation

Hollow Ruby Rodd?

@BahamutBrat That was an effective point- Science can only get you so far

nevada quite honestly i understood only about half of what he said. lol

Hollow Lol

Hollow Super Green

@BahamutBrat Ruby was great

@BahamutBrat The first time I saw the movie I couldn't figure out what he was shouting about

Hollow Lol

nevada i was actually not crazy about the very end, when they reconstruct leeloo but i see why they thought it was necessary

@BahamutBrat but that was another strong character with a film full of distinct characters

Hollow I liked when he screamed like a woman.

nevada i was fine with her having sacrificed herself

@BahamutBrat lol, yes Hollow

Hollow That's what I like about it, memorable characters.

@BahamutBrat Nev- no HEA?

Hollow You can have a good plot, action, etc. But if characters aren't memorable... meh

nevada definitely a movie that was driven by characters

@BahamutBrat (happily ever after)

nevada i dont always need an HEA

@BahamutBrat that movie was all about having a HEA though

@BahamutBrat the coming together of Ying and Yang

nevada i know and it was okay but for me it was unnecessary. lol

@BahamutBrat fair enough

@BahamutBrat how can we have character driven when writing our novel?

@BahamutBrat same question for memorable characters

nevada to make them complete. with flaws and good points

nevada but it's interesting to note that leeloo was a very complete character even though she had no backstory at all

Hollow Not flat

Hollow True

@BahamutBrat And make them take action as appropriate

@BahamutBrat especially at the end

nevada i dont think that an author knowing 100% of a character's backstory is always necessary

Hollow Her character worked without ever having to know where exactly she came from.

@BahamutBrat That's true, and wasn't she ancient?

nevada they need to make mistakes. that’s for sure

@BahamutBrat She'd just never been to earth

@BahamutBrat and at the end of the movie Leeloo returned to innocence (so to speak) when she got shot

Hollow As long as the flaws aren't glaringly obvious and melodramatic

@BahamutBrat helpless

@BahamutBrat lost

Hollow Such as a drinking problem

@BahamutBrat upset at the world

@BahamutBrat yeah, flaws need to be real

nevada i think the flaws should be a character thing not a physical world thing. a drinking problem should be an outward manifestation of an inner flaw

Hollow Not to say there aren't real people with drinking problems

Hollow Yeah

@BahamutBrat yes, not just why do they drink, but what drives them to drink

nevada exactly baham

@BahamutBrat alright, in the last 3 minutes, what else about the Fifth Element?

@BahamutBrat and the SFF elements that went into it?

Hollow Hmm

nevada would not work without sf elements. this is a plot and an idea that is completely driven by sf

Hollow What about the whole 'predetermined role' kinda thing

Hollow Destiny and all that.

nevada standard fantasy quest fair

nevada fare

@BahamutBrat There was certainly a fair

nevada lol baham

@BahamutBrat The Destiny plot was handled well

@BahamutBrat Leeloo had a purpose

Hollow Yeah.

@BahamutBrat she was a 'thing'

@BahamutBrat but she was a real person

Hollow And she was reluctant at the end

nevada lol pretty standard. innocent maiden aided by a warrior, corbin, and a wiseman, the priest, fight the evil wizard, the guy with the plate on his head, to save the universe

@BahamutBrat and they had real, reasonable, relatable obstacles

Hollow Showing her rather human side

@BahamutBrat the bad guy wasn't just a loony running around

@BahamutBrat he was a loony sitting behind a desk

nevada no he had reason and purpose

nevada LOL

Hollow Well what about the "Dark thing"

Hollow The meteor/planet

Hollow That was alive

Hollow That was kinda weird.

nevada that was a macguffin for me. just something that got the whole thing started

nevada cause something had to set it off

@BahamutBrat That goes back to the yin and yang too

Hollow True I guess.

@BahamutBrat EVIL IS COMING!

@BahamutBrat zomg, get the innocent perfect boobed girl

@BahamutBrat only she can fight back the evil

nevada tiny boobed though. lol

@BahamutBrat good thing she was a virgin

nevada lol

@BahamutBrat 100 points to hollywood for getting an actor with normal boobs

@BahamutBrat small even

Hollow Nothing wrong with tiny boobage.

nevada yeah i thought that was great.

nevada no implants

@BahamutBrat okay, now that our boob convo will be posted for the world to see

Hollow You and a million 13 year old boys

nevada LOL

@BahamutBrat Lets move on

@BahamutBrat to WallE

Horserider yay WallE

@BahamutBrat Same questions

nevada first time i saw wallE it made me sad

@BahamutBrat What is the theme of the film? And how is the theme illustrated by setting/character/dialogue/plot?

nevada my 4 yr old niece thought it was sad too

@BahamutBrat WallE was such a lonely movie at the start

@BahamutBrat but there was drive and determination

Horserider It's such a cute movie though!

nevada perseverance in the face of adversity

@BahamutBrat the loneliness didn't come out until Eva showed up

Hollow And a sense of duty

@BahamutBrat and it always amazes me how Pixar can do so much with so little

nevada yes until we see what we dont have we dont realize we miss it

Hollow One thing I hated about the movie.

@BahamutBrat even their lamp mascot is totally expressive

Hollow Was using live-action clips with other 3D people.

nevada oh i loved that

nevada i loved the video clips being real

Horserider oh yeah that

@BahamutBrat lol, I didn't even notice

nevada again though it's about adaptability. wallE can adapt his duty and his mission but auto pilot could not

@BahamutBrat That was strange, b/c at some point auto pilot would have been happy to return

@BahamutBrat but along the way he got stuck in his ways

@BahamutBrat change was bad

nevada but he was so focused on his duty he could not exceed his programming

nevada wallE could

@BahamutBrat Eva could

@BahamutBrat the second time she got the plant, she was happy, but focused on WallE

nevada yes eva right from the beginning was more than her programming

@BahamutBrat I couldn't understand why she had such a trigger finger

nevada lol she had a temper

@BahamutBrat had a human survived she would have fried 'em

@BahamutBrat or the cockroach

Hollow Heheh

Horserider i love the cockroach

nevada in juxtaposition to wallE who persevered and simply endured and did what had to be done. eva had no patience and just blasted her way through

nevada yin and yang

@BahamutBrat yes, WallE was much softer in this instance

@BahamutBrat and there was never a question of which was male/female though

nevada he was that song, walk on in the storm etc

nevada wallE is a beta hero

@BahamutBrat Beta hero?

nevada oh romance term

nevada alpha masculine aggressive super man

@BahamutBrat ahhhhh

nevada beta, thinking less aggressive more metrosexual

@BahamutBrat kewl

@BahamutBrat I need a beta hero

@BahamutBrat alright

@BahamutBrat How do the SF/F elements strengthen the story?

@BahamutBrat Earth is destroyed

@BahamutBrat but WallE is still there

@BahamutBrat the ultimate There and Back journey quest

@BahamutBrat for everyone

nevada couldn’t have the story without sf. I think it depended very much on them being robots

Hollow Mhm

@BahamutBrat What makes a very not-human thing feel human to us?

nevada you can write about people outgrowing their character, but a human would never have gone on as long as wallE

nevada although I suppose you can compare him to will smith in I am legend

Hollow For instance Wall-E hung onto the ship as it sailed through space

Horserider feelings

nevada both had a job they did every day, both had a pet to talk to, both watched videos. OMG

Hollow And a human could never do his job.

Hollow Heheh

Horserider Will smith watched videos in I am legend?

@BahamutBrat fighting trash vs fighting human trash

nevada i think it works because humans like to anthropomorphize. we automatically attribute human traits to non human things

@BahamutBrat Shrek!

Hollow He liked Shrek, he said

nevada he watches the news videos, and he goes to the video store every day hwere he talks to the mannequins

@BahamutBrat Did anyone else notice how the second WallE arrived he started effecting changes?

@BahamutBrat and those changes snowballed?

nevada yes, he was a catalyst in an inert object

Hollow Arrived on the ship?

Hollow Yeah

@BahamutBrat yeah

nevada bodies at rest tend to stay at rest. he was the push they couldn’t give themselves

@BahamutBrat literally

Hollow lol

Horserider lol

@BahamutBrat those were some rested bodies

Hollow XD

nevada exactly. lmao

nevada attention everyone. blue is the new red

@BahamutBrat LOL

nevada hey i didnt know we had a pool

@BahamutBrat we are on WallE

Hollow I wish I could press a button and change my cloth colors

Sky awwww

@BahamutBrat yeah, so many were plugged in- making fun of the internet world

Sky that would be fun wouldn’t it!

@BahamutBrat it sucks you in

Hollow And its truthful

Hollow That if we all could be lazy

Hollow We would

Horserider Does anyone else wonder how they managed to have children if they never noticed each other?

@BahamutBrat Well, I don't agree

nevada very true. also the tendency for people to enjoy something second hand.

@BahamutBrat there are people who have learned that fit is better

nevada i think the children were grown

Horserider No I think they showed like toddler age children at one point

Hollow Also, it is on a space ship. Not a whole lot of 'adventure' there

@BahamutBrat although I could see them getting weeded out and not teaching that to their children as generations past

nevada yes rider, i mean they were grown in a test tube

@BahamutBrat I think the children were symbolic

@BahamutBrat b/c I also noticed that

@BahamutBrat you have the next generation

@BahamutBrat all the kids were the same age

@BahamutBrat all the adults were the same age

@BahamutBrat one after the other

Horserider Oooo grown in the literal sense. i was thinking grown as in "older"

@BahamutBrat organized

@BahamutBrat and the captain was eagerly teaching them at the end

@BahamutBrat so we knew the pattern was broken

@BahamutBrat and humans would look after themselves

nevada yes the hieroglyphs at the end showed them adapting and prospering

@BahamutBrat yeah

@BahamutBrat They finished the tale

nevada so this is a movie that has an epilogue that was essential to the story

nevada so maybe not all epilogues are evil. lol

@BahamutBrat I love epilogues

Horserider I like epilogues too (i.e. HP)

@BahamutBrat but I love a good denounment too

At this point we shifted to AI but as most people had not seen it, little was said…

Kitty Pryde · Mar 27, 2009

March 26, 2009 Transcript: Political and Social Structures in SF/F WorldBuilding

Transcript from March 26, 2009.

Topic: Political and Social Structures in SF/F WorldBuilding

Peter
Welcome to tonight’s Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Chat.

Peter
Now, for tonight’s discussion. KittyPryde will present the questions under consideration tonight.

KittyPryde
How can we use SF/F to illuminate current problems within our own societies/governments?

KittyPryde
How do we go about adapting current or historical social/political systems for our SF/F world we are creating?

KittyPryde
How do you decide what types of social/political systems best suit your story?

KittyPryde
How do your speculative elements (FTL travel, dragons, aliens, magicians, w/e) influence the development of social/political systems in your worldbuilding?

Peter
The chat room is now open for discussion

KittyPryde
Our first question, How can we use SF/F to illuminate current problems within our own societies/governments?

Fulk
I think we see a good deal of this everywhere.

Peter
Personally, I like to imagine a future where our current problems are solved, but are also replaced with new ones, that are almost identical to the current ones.

Horserider
I know that I've used it.

Tig
It makes me think of Gulliver's Travels.

Horserider
Usually exaggerated.

Fulk
A lot of dystopian novels were awful upfront about it all.

Dermit
Well, a sci/fantasy novel can be used as an excellent example of what NOT to do

Peter
like William Gibson, Fulk?

KittyPryde
I think of SF as being forward-looking, seeking solutions to today's problems, or looking for what problems we'll face in the future

Fulk
Yeah. Or of course, Orwell. His work was so influential that it actually enters our vocabulary when talking politics.

KittyPryde
Wizard of Oz is another great example of showing modern problems, but in a fantasy setting.

Fulk
I also really like the idea you brought up, Peter. A place where our modern-day problems are solved, but new ones crop up.

Fulk
It's not a literary example, but I couldn't help but think of a South Park episode where religion is done away with.

Fulk
So organizations just fight over what they should call themselves, instead.

Dermit
If history teaches us anything, it's that the human race will find new problems at least as fast as we solve them.

Peter
I'm writing a series of shorts that deal with a war in the Asteroid belt shortly after we get there... like say, 300 years hence.

Peter
I can't see that the problems they face will be vastly different than those we face today.

Horserider
Haha Fulk I’ve seen that episode.

nevada
Peter, there are universal problems that as long as people congregate in groups will always be there.

Fulk
No, I'm sure they won't be. Even if they are even just varied up a bit. There will always be social norms, there will always be the taboo.

Peter
You're right, nevvy.

Maxmordon
I agree, Nevada. There are ancient Babylonian tablets telling how kids these days don't behave as they used to.

Maxmordon
You have the advantage in fantasy to set an allegory.

Maxmordon
A fable, if you want.

nevada
Exactly. And I think by moving them to a totally different universe you can examine them in such a way that you can sneak it by the reader.

Maxmordon
Think for example Animal Farm.

Tig
Socrates said that too about children.

nevada
They think you're doing a riproaring sci fi space opera but you're really examining corruption in society etc.

Dermit
Does anyone else hate it when the author tries to sneak a political agenda passed you, as a reader?

Peter
Really the only difference between commerce, government and society in the middle ages and now, and 300 years in the future, is just technology.

KittyPryde
Do you folks think that fantasy or science fiction works better to examine a problem the author sees in modern society?

Fulk
I was actually going to bring that up when we talked about the second question.

Fulk
Some readers HATE it. I don't mind.

Tig
Dot when it goes over my head Dermit.

KittyPryde
Dermit, yeah, you definitely have to entertain while you sneak in the message, not preach and hope it's entertaining!

Maxmordon
It works to detach ourselves from the setting, being an unbiased witness.

Horserider
Shouldn't modern society be fantasy since sci-fi is usually future?

KittyPryde
Rider, SF can look at how we can try to solve problems in the near future.

Fulk
That was one of the biggest gripes I see against His Dark Materials. People saw preachiness. And that might be true. But sometimes the agenda or message is cleverly done or passed off as a parody.

Guest3
Horserider has a good point.

KittyPryde
OR, it can go to the FAR future, where the problems have come back in a more interesting way!

Maxmordon
I agree, Fulk.

Maxmordon
Yeah Kitty, see Dune.

Maxmordon
Spice: Oil

Fulk
I was just about to mention Dune.

Dermit
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I didn't see what the uproar was about in HDM, but I didn't really care for the series either.

Fulk
They go so far into the future, they're nearly in the dark ages.

Fulk
Well, another dark age.

KittyPryde
A really easy example, horserider, is racism=bad. So in the far future, discriminating against aliens=also bad, and metaphorical.

Horserider
I liked the first and second HDM. I didn't really get the third

Horserider
But aliens usually want to destroy the world. That's bad.

Maxmordon
Yeah, it mixes up classic feudal system with modern oil industry in developed countries

Maxmordon
Sorry, still talking about Dune.

KittyPryde
Rider, that's sometimes true. But your aliens can do anything you want them to.

Guest3
Yeah, take Superman for instance.

Tig
yep there was a series a few years ago where the aliens came into the society and it all had its set of problems

Tig
and they were considered nice aliens

KittyPryde
Ok, folks, let's switch it up:

KittyPryde
How do we go about adapting current or historical social/political systems for our SF/F world we are creating?

Horserider
Adapting? well you'd have to take into account anything special about the world.

Fulk
Well, like we discussed before, you have to be careful when adapting a political or social system so as to not bash the reader over the head with an agenda.

Peter
I just change technology ... but pretty much the way people interact is the same.

Maxmordon
I was thinking on a novel setting the South American Independence on a Tolkienesque world.

Peter
That might be because the only experience I have is current society.

Maxmordon
It's about balance, getting all the POVs.

KittyPryde
How would you turn fat, bloated America, nearly in a depression, with a newly-elected first black president, into a SF or fantasy universe?

Fulk
And yes, Rider brings up an integral point to it all. You have to factor in how the mechanics of your world flip the system you're adapting on its head.

Maxmordon
Not only your side is the winning side.

Guest3
You could use an alien race to become president of the world or United States or whatever.

Dermit
Shrug, I feel like I've read America history with a new veneer of paint in several fantasy series I've read.

nevada
You set a fat bloated world nearly in a depression with the first cyborg elected to office in the story.

Guest3
Cyborg or Android would work too.

Maxmordon
A Roman Empire knock-off with a commoner becoming emperor.

Guest3
Even an artificially created human like Kyle from say Kyle XY.

Peter
People in the future (or the past) get just as exhausted as we do.

Peter
Yep.

Maxmordon
Well, adapting a historical event into SFF you must take account of all the point of views, not only yours.

Fulk
The populace might very well be very cynical, too. Or cling to its former glory when it was much better off.

Fulk
And consider how the people would react to the shift.

Maxmordon
Keep in mind not all hate the fat bloated empire and not all love them.

Dermit
Is it cheating to rip things out of history and pawn them off as your own, though?

Maxmordon
Done right it is not, Dermit.

Maxmordon
Think in Animal Farm.

Guest3
Not if you change more than ten percent.

KittyPryde
I think we're definitely allowed to steal history. No one owns it!

Guest3
Mostly, you just use it as a basis to get started.

Maxmordon
Ripped off from the first half of the USSR and applies to most dictatorships.

Maxmordon
God has no copyright!

KittyPryde
BTW stealing history is a good conceit for a SF short story...

Fulk
And if you believe in the adage 'History is doomed to be repeated', then it certainly isn't wrong to borrow ideas of the past.

Guest3
Take for instance the politics in George R R Martin's series, A Song of Ice and Fire.

Dermit
Of course we're allowed, and often it works well, but wouldn't it be better to be completely original?

Maxmordon
ASoIaF is a recounting of the War of the Roses, if I am not mistaken.

Horserider
Nothing's completely original.

KittyPryde
But history repeats itself...

Dermit
Right, Guest, I've been thinking that the whole time. Fantastic series, but I don't feel it's as creative as a lot of other works.

Fulk
HR said it. It's how you take things out of history or the present and adapt them that makes it 'original'.

Maxmordon
We have an incestuous art, a Lovecraftian creature puking and eating itself over and over again.

Guest3
True.

Guest3
Kind of frustrating really.

Maxmordon
Exactly, Fulk. Make them believable characters and not just history book figures.

KittyPryde
Max, your metaphor is a bit disgusting.

Maxmordon
Sorry.

Dermit
It's Lovecraft, of course it is.

Maxmordon
A snake biting its tail.

Maxmordon
Better like that?

Guest3
If anyone has read any of Sara Douglass's fantasy books like the Axis series, it uses a lot of history in it. The Wounded Hawk is a good one to look at.

KittyPryde
Lol, more palatable that way, max!

Maxmordon
There's Darkness by Harry Turtledove.

Maxmordon
WWII in a fantasy world.

KittyPryde
yeah, Turtledove has reimagined loads of wars and battles in a fantasy setting.

Guest3
Though, it would be a fairly easy job for her considering she is a history professor at University level.

Maxmordon
Hitler is a mad king who murdered his older brother, the master race is ginger-haired Scots and US is a Finnish-speaking East Asian former colony.

KittyPryde
Alternate history is a really good way to steal from history!

Guest3
Even huge role playing games like the Final Fantasy series borrow a lot of pieces from history when it comes to the political side of it.

Maxmordon
I use lots of history as a base for my fantasy.

Horserider
I used what I expect the government to become for my fantasy.

Guest3
And what do you expect the government to become?

Dermit
It makes sense, though. You gotta work with what you know.

Maxmordon
Grandpa used to tell me about wars, dictators, bullfighters, saints, ghosts and whatnot from the far past

KittyPryde
OK, on that note:

KittyPryde
How do you decide what types of social/political systems best suit your story?

Horserider
Whatever the plot requires.

ccwriter
did you record any of his stories, Max?

Dermit
10 sided die

Maxmordon
Only a few, ccwriter.

Guest3
I think it all depends on the setting really.

Horserider
I used a totalitarian government. Over-controlling with a pack of lies and far too many laws.

Maxmordon
But it made me hungry for history.

Maxmordon
I want something realistic, yet fantastical.

Fulk
The setting is important. But I like to get a vast range of systems represented.

Guest3
If people live differently from the way we do, the political system is obviously going to be different.

Dermit
If you want to get technical, you should probably consider the history of your fictional world, and what is most likely to evolve naturally in that setting. Me, I just pick whatever I want.

Guest3
You only need to look at the rest of the world to realize that.

KittyPryde
so, rider, why does totalitarianism work for your story?

Maxmordon
Like, there's really a country where the closest thing they have to democracy is choosing what woman will bear the new king.

Guest3
For instance in Russia, the politics are completely different to say the United States, UK, and Australia.

Peter
Y'know, in a story I wrote, I had this peculiar situation: my characters are sequestered in an orbital habitat, like a generation ship, and have been there for a millennium. I found that I needed to describe a false society, one that evolved from years of seclusion.

Tig
The old king has no choice in the matter Maxmordon?

Maxmordon
Yep, all of the candidates are his wives.

Horserider
It was required for the plot, Kitty.

Dermit
Kinda of like foundation, peter?

Peter
mmm, not quite Dermit.

Fulk
It might really depend on whether, as a worldbuilder, you build up or down. Do you start with people, and determine what sort of place they live in? Or do you determine a place, and deduce from that the sorts of people that might grow up there?

Maxmordon
I actually found that is better to start at the bottom.

Guest3
I think it works if you know the characters and setting before you do anything to do with the politics.

Peter
The society of Foundation wasn't secluded... there was a huge interplanetary society.

Maxmordon
I started with the Oioku with something simple, a culture of fishermen.

KittyPryde
I guess it brings up the question, what comes first for the individual writer: the MC's story, or the world it's set in?

KittyPryde
For me it's always the story.

Guest3
Agreed.

Fulk
In my case, it's been the MC's story.

Dermit
Chicken, meet egg.

Peter
In my story, there are only a million or so, who have lived in an enclosure for 20 generations.

Maxmordon
Doesn’t matter how complicated is the world, what matters is what is on the paper.

Peter
Like a tribe on an island with no input from the outside world.

Fulk
In my fantasy WIP, I determined bits of my characters background that helped develop him into what he is. And only after that did I realize what sort of society he grew up in.

Maxmordon
Something like that, Fulk.

Maxmordon
I created two societies in different ways.

Maxmordon
I started with the Azancians with their institutions as a continental empire on the edge of falling and very visually.

Guest3
In the story I am writing, a powerful alien race rules the rest of the universe, but each planet still has its own rules and society / politics, etc.

Maxmordon
They build pyramid-like buildings, write in the "Arabian Nights" style, etc.

KittyPryde
Guest3, so is it sort of like the British empire used to be ruling over a bunch of countries all over the place?

Horserider
Kinda like the system Anne McCaffrey uses in the Freedom series.

Maxmordon
But it feels kinda hollow.

Guest3
Very much so, but on a much larger scale. Probably even just as cruel as they used to be.

Maxmordon
And I have written a dozen stories set in the Azancian Empire.

Maxmordon
While the Oiouku has more depth.

Fulk
And Oiouku started from characters and went upward?

Maxmordon
I know how most of why these people think and suffer.

Maxmordon
Yeah.

Maxmordon
I started with the idea of fishermen.

Maxmordon
Tribal fishermen.

Fulk
That's what works for me, too. But mileage may vary for others.

Guest3
My stories always start that way too. First with the characters, and then the rest of the world / worlds come along after.

KittyPryde
so, for you, the story grows to suit the world, and not vice versa?

Maxmordon
Then they became religious and live in multifamily houses slightly based on the vikings and natives.

Guest3
Yes.

Maxmordon
Yes, Kitty. I have never managed to write a single story so far with the Oioku.

Maxmordon
Since I don't see them as individuals, like Azancians. But they feel more real...

KittyPryde
This is very interesting to me. I dunno if I could do it that way!

Peter
Kitty, you write the universe, and mold your characters to it?

Dermit
Well, I'd love to say the plot comes before anything...but it really doesn't.

Peter
Plot is only one facet of story.

Guest3
Although, occasionally, like today when I was writing, two of my main characters went to another world, and it seemed really out of place, similar to current Earth, but not as advanced. It also had an overlying fantasy aspect to it too.

KittyPryde
No, I have a story for my characters, then I figure out where the story takes place!

Fulk
Okay, so then you write as we do. I think.

Peter
ok, so the STORY is first, then the plot and setting follows

Dermit
How is the story different than the plot?

Guest3
I have the story pretty well written, and yeah, what you just said.

Maxmordon
Yeah, that's what all we agree, Peter

Fulk
Characters come first for me, then plot and setting. -Generally-.

KittyPryde
Peter-yes!

Fulk
I do sometimes get the setting before the characters.

Guest3
The plot is the main point, the story is how they get there.

Maxmordon
I have a skeletal plot and then I flesh it out along the way.

Fulk
But they often come off as more shallow and preachy parodies of something I see.

Peter
Dermit, not a great deal, but story involves characters and characterizations, settings, mood, etc... that aren't necessary just for plot.

Maxmordon
I know the ending, the punchline of the joke is getting there.

Guest3
For every chapter I write a very brief outline (one or two sentences usually) and as I go I get to know what is going to happen and continue to add to the simple outline.

Guest3
And then other times, I completely ignore it and go with something that seems better at the time.

Maxmordon
For some odd reason a lot of my MC end up killing themselves at the end of the stories.

KittyPryde
So, do you all build your world to BRING OUT the important themes of your story, or do you just build a world where the story can fit?

Guest3
Quite right, Max.

Dermit
it's an easy out, Max

Guest3
Sometimes, I don't even know if all the characters I want to make it will survive.

Fulk
I do like to emphasize themes through the world and characters, but I don't want to overdo it at the same time.

Dermit
Honestly for me, in my fantasy WIP, the world came first, and I then created characters and nations and a magic system that I thought would make sense in that setting

Maxmordon
It's better to have a world where the story fits. If it fits properly the themes will come up by themselves.

KittyPryde
Fulk, agreed, you do have to balance it out.

Guest3
Magic is another thing I love about writing fantasy and sci fi. It is completely limitless in what you want to do.

Dermit
I don't think the "how" it came together is all that important, so long as it does.

Maxmordon
You don't want to sound preachy "coughsnarniacoughs"

KittyPryde
Thing is, Narnia isn't preachy to little kids, tho.

Fulk
Yeah. And that's, again, why working up from the characters has worked a whole lot better for me.

KittyPryde
It's merely awesome.

Maxmordon
True.

Guest3
I agree. I loved Narnia when I was growing up.

Maxmordon
Sorry, I am another generation.

Dermit
Hell, Narnia would run preachy to people who can't read...

Fulk
Because when I try to start with the world first, it seems terribly obvious as to what my opinion is.

Maxmordon
I grew up with Harry Potter.

KittyPryde
Fulk: interesting. So you don't want to create World of Making A Really Obvious Point!

Guest3
Even that has its own world and societies.

Maxmordon
I try to create my world as varied as possible.

Guest3
For instance the Muggles and magic world.

Fulk
Precisely.

Maxmordon
My opinion is: There are some good people, there are some bad people. None of them have a distinct personality or religion or whatnot.

Maxmordon
All of them believe they are right.

KittyPryde
ok, writers, last question for the night:

Maxmordon
People are people, no matter the package.

Guest3
I try to think of it in a different way. The good people know they are good, but the bad people think they are also good.

Maxmordon
Heroes are just villains you support

Guest3
I have a good variety of them all.

Maxmordon
Sorry, couldn't resist quoting one of my characters

KittyPryde
How do your speculative elements (FTL travel, dragons, aliens, magicians, w/e) influence the development of social/political systems in your worldbuilding?

Peter
ahh, my favorite topic

Fulk
I think I might've touched on it way earlier, but speculative elements are, I think, what set things up for variation of systems.

Fulk
Let 'er rip, Peter. Hehe.

Peter
Well.

Peter
ahem

Maxmordon
Well, considering the power Magic holds I wouldn't be surprised if Magicians become their own caste.

Dermit
Much the same way any overwhelming technology effects people in the real world. If it's readily available, it will change the culture utterly.

KittyPryde
so, how would, for example, faster than light travel affect society/government?

Guest3
Completely, Dermit.

Maxmordon
It perhaps would try to restrict their government.

Maxmordon
it would create a more united society.

Guest3
Watch any Sci Fi to have that answered.

Maxmordon
Most bigoted views, in my opinion, comes from fear and ignorance of what we don't know... like stereotypes.

Peter
society as we know it exists (simply) because we live on the outside of a ball of rock. But what happens when, for 20 generations, people exist only on the INSIDE of a volume? Where there is no input from anywhere else. They're alone, left to their own devices.

Dermit
Distince would become inconsequential, and the universe would become a very small place indeed.

Peter
My supposition is that their society is vastly different than ours is.

Peter
But I'm not very sure how much so.

Guest3
The universe is endless, so I suppose it would only build society and spread them out.

nevada
For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky.

KittyPryde
Peter, would they be like a historical island society? Mainly isolated?

Maxmordon
They would have rumors of the outsiders, Pete.

Peter
From the isolation standpoint, yeah.

Fulk
I'm sure it would be, Peter. Just think of even basic logistics. They would be incredibly artificial.

Peter
But they have "land" all around them... there is no sky.

Fulk
Artificial light.

Maxmordon
Think of them as lower than them I think.

Peter
To go "outside" is to die.

Maxmordon
ah...

Peter
Up is low gravity, down is high gravity.

Maxmordon
So the things who may exist outside are death creatures...

Fulk
Artificial means of vegetation or sustainment. Or just peculiar species of plants and animals that live in that sort of place.

Peter
Sealing the "hull" is the MOST important life saving thing they do.

Peter
And keeping their environment viable.

Peter
I think they'd have a much closer relationship with their environment than anyone in Greenpeace.

Dermit
20 generations? They'd be primitive in comparison to those on the outside, more than likely (fewer brains to make the technological advances, fewer resources) and they would likely have a very structured religion, because there would be no where for those with differing opinions to go.

KittyPryde
What if they forget, over time, that certain things are vital? Like, crop-rotation!

Peter
But in my story, Dermit, there is no one "outside."

Peter
As far as my characters know, they are "it."

KittyPryde
They are the whole world.

Maxmordon
I am trying to write a short story called "Paradise, Unmasked" set on a fantasy world, it's how a bunch of ship passengers go to a piece of land to create their new paradise in the faraway colonies.

Peter
Yes, KP.

Fulk
Peter: I'm sure they would be very concerned about keeping their environment safe, given how dangerous it would be if the hull were damaged.

Maxmordon
They would resort to myth to explain some possibility of outside.

Maxmordon
Like the City of Ember.

Fulk
And I'm assuming they are technologically advanced enough to be wary of their effects on things. But, on the other hand.

Dermit
With a fixed enviroment, overpopulation would be a serious problem too. Birthrates would probably be limited.

Dermit
ala Ender's Game

Peter
My people are what's left of the human race, escaping disaster that destroys life on Earth.

Fulk
Some (or most) of the folks there may become conceited. They might think that nothing has ever risked damaging the hull before, and it's never happened before.

Fulk
So naturally they have nothing to worry about.

Fulk
That breeds incompetence.

Peter
Yes.

Dermit
Sounds something like Battlestar Galactica now, Peter...although inside a giant something instead of on a new planet.

Guest3
Do they remember how they got there, or is it recorded somewhere?

KittyPryde
Peter, have you read 'The Stars My Destination' by Alfred Bester? It has a society of scientists on an asteroid habitat who have forgotten about science as a discipline, and now sort of worship science as a primitive religion.

Peter
Similar, Dermit

Dermit
Science damn you!

Peter
Haven't, KP, but that's so close to my initial premise as to be frightening. lol

Guest3
Because as a species, humans are prone to exploration, whether it be their own backyard, outer space or even the deepest reach of the ocean.

Peter
Not if there is apparently no where to go?

KittyPryde
Peter, they are a minor plot point, don't worry! I think they're called The Scientific People.

Peter
Here's a question: In a closed society, such as I propose, is there any reason for currency?

Peter
For trade?

KittyPryde
Yes!

Dermit
I think a society caters to the least common denominator. If, for instance, food and living space are both readily available, but fuel is scarce, you'll have a technological society centered around making the most of what fuel they have. If you're dealing with a food/space limited society, I think it would be a lot more primitive, because they'd never move beyond simply fighting for survival

Fulk
Hmm, good question.

Guest3
Yes, otherwise no one would want to work.

KittyPryde
it's just like a village, I reckon. No one wants to do the work while other people slack.

Peter
What's there to spend it on?

Maxmordon
Yeah, there's something you need to exchange your effort for exchange of values.

Maxmordon
There are humans, I guess whores and liquor.

Peter
There are no rich, no poor, everyone works to make the air, the food, get rid of waste.

Guest3
Otherwise some people get stuff for free, while others have to labor.

Fulk
It might exist on a gift or barter system. But it could present problems.

Dermit
Star Trek

Peter
When there is only a million people?

KittyPryde
Who makes sure they all do their work?

Peter
When you virtually know everyone?

Fulk
Naturally there is an increased dependence on one another.

Maxmordon
Always hated that from Star Trek.

Dermit
A million people and you know everyone? That’s a stretch.

nevada
Umm yeah I live in a city of a million people and I don't know anyone.

Maxmordon
They lived a bureaucratic militaristic Utopia.

nevada
A million people is a lot.

Guest3
I suppose there would have to be some sort of governing and law.

Dermit
I don't know 90% of the people in my town of 5k

Maxmordon
And division by region.

Guest3
They would need peacekeepers (police or something of the sort).

Maxmordon
Law enforcers.

Peter
Dermit, I bet you soon would if no one could come in from outside, and no one could leave.

Peter
Not because they didn't want to, but because it was impossible.

Dermit
Not really. Unless they're immortal, or something.

Maxmordon
And whores and liquor.

Maxmordon
Forms of entertainment.

Maxmordon
You don't expect them to work 10 hours daily and sleep like a hive without reason.

Guest3
Are you calling whores entertainment?

Peter
or commerce

Maxmordon
I call them "Mankind's oldest trade".

Guest3
I suppose they are in a way.

Peter
Well folks... the hour is up.

KittyPryde
Womankind's oldest trade, really

Maxmordon
Well, you know those Greeks...

Peter
Thanks to you all for participating in tonight's Live Chat. The 'official' portion of the chat is now concluded.

KittyPryde
Thanks for coming, everybody!

Pthom · Apr 15, 2009

April 2, 2009, Transcript: Worldbuilding - balancing realism with the fantastical

Peter
Welcome to tonight’s Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Chat.

Peter
Let’s begin with Proposed Topic #1, which is: How important, as a reader, is it for a fantasy novel to be realistic? And does a fantasy world always have to have strictly-defined rules for its fantastical elements?

Hollow
I think there has to be some sort of structure for ‘fantastical elements’ otherwise it might seem like everything’s just “nilly willy”

Peter
Have an example of such?

Maxmordon
It has to have coherence of itself.

ELM
A fantasy world can do anything, but anything has to be consistent.

Hollow
Not off-hand

BahamutBrat
Yes, rules are important, although they should be explained as needed

Maxmordon
Exactly, ELM

BahamutBrat
No wise mentor dumps please

Hollow
Indeed

ELM
What do you mean wise-mentor dumps?

pookel
I don’t think there always has to be a structure that the reader can see clearly.

Hollow
Long blocks of text

ELM
infodump from the old guy on the side of the road.

SaraAnn
But what if this ‘wise mentor’ is an actual mc?

Hollow
Even if it’s something as simply as “wave wand and say a word and magic comes out” it has to be consistent.

Maxmordon
ELM, is something like when you sit your characters to explain them for 4 pages why the sky is purple.

BahamutBrat
Pookel, can you think of any unexplained structures that work?

ELM
Example?

SaraAnn
Isn’t the dump kinda needed then?

Maxmordon
and it’s not relevant to the plot

ELM
Yep, just say it’s purple and let that become self-evident.

BahamutBrat
Sara- Well, in Harry Potter there was Dumbledore, but he didn’t explain too much magic

BahamutBrat
That worked nicely

SaraAnn
Well...I suppose you could say Lord of the Rings. Gandalf is a guide and half-mentor to Frodo, and he’s very much needed.

BahamutBrat
he fed out info as needed

dempsey
Magic is pretty decently explained in the Dresden series

Peter would say that any dump: info dump or “wise mentor” dump, is telling, not showing and should, when at all possible, be avoided.

pookel
I’m trying to think of an example...

dempsey
At least, the ones I’ve read

dempsey
For instance, the potion-making

ELM
I don’t think dumps are ever necessary.

dempsey
I’m thinking specifically Storm Front, here.

Maxmordon
It always bugged me that they always had to explain the rules of Quidditch in EVERY Harry Potter book

ELM
If the action is inviting, you can dole out the information as needed.

pookel
I recently read Robin McKinley’s Sunshine, and I felt like there was a lot about her world that remained mysterious to me at the end.

eyeblink
definition question - if you mention that the sun is blue, would that make it SF and not fantasy? - or would that clue you in that you’re not on Earth?

SaraAnn
Max, that always bugged me too. When they repeated said rules over...and over....and over....aaaand overrrrr

BahamutBrat
I liked the voice in Storm Front, so the ‘dumps’ (mini-dumps) were dampened.

Peter
ELM, I agree generally, but now and then, a dump is the only way you can impart needed info to the reader in short order, so that the plot can progress in a timely fashion.

dempsey
eyeblink - depends on the reasons

eyeblink
oribiting some other star for example - that’s exposition that can be done subtly

ELM
Could be either, a blue sun could mean not earth or it could mean a state of earth.

Maxmordon
Eyeblink, it can be both.

dempsey
If it’s blue due to magic, it’s fantasy. If it’s blue because it’s really really hot, it’s SF.

ELM
not enough to say.

BahamutBrat
Eye- I’d go with alternate world fantasy, but that’s me

dempsey
And even then it depends on the world it’s set in.

ELM
Give me an example Peter.

eyeblink
okay thanks

Maxmordon
Once Pratchett said Sci-Fi was just Fantasy with cogs and science painted over

dempsey
Maxmordon: That depends on the breed of skiffy, I’d think.

ELM
Pratchett was right. It’s all fantasy until it’s real.

dempsey
If it’s absolutely hard scifi, then maybe not as much. But if it’s very soft, I’m inclined to agree.

eyeblink
But the magic in Earthsea obeys the laws of thermodynamics for example

Peter thinks: there’s hope for my novel yet.

ELM
Peter I can’t think of an example that I needed a big dump of information to move along the plot.

eyeblink
so it’s still magic but as realistic as possible (bearing in mind it’s magic)

BahamutBrat
In my WIP, I got bashed for not explaining enough- a line here, two there, are sometimes needed or wanted by the reader

eyeblink
I’d say it’s always better to avoid huge infodumps.

ELM
i think you move the plot along and introduce elements of your world as you go, being certain to keep it all together.

Peter
“Big” is nasty, when it comes to dumps.

BahamutBrat
so very minor dumps are sometimes needed

Peter
but sometimes, you need to lay on a lot of info in a hurry.

SaraAnn
Bahamut; I agree. You can’t go the whole story in a made up world without explaining things. Then it’s just confusing.

ELM
For instance?

Peter
I would, however, avoid like the plague, anything that smacks of an “as you know Bob” episode.

Maxmordon
Rod Serling said “Fantasy is the impossible made probable. Science Fiction is the improbable made possible.”

BahamutBrat
Bad example, since I’m thinking of my own WIP, but why my magic-monsters show up and what limits them

eyeblink
No, but you can parse out your information slowly - you don’t need to frontload your story with everything.

BahamutBrat
To me it makes sense, and when I tried to show it, it didn’t quite jive.

ELM
Let’s say you live on a purple skyed planet with a blue sun and pink flamingos on every corner.

Maxmordon
It’s a bit of balance

BahamutBrat
Run!

Peter
hehe

pookel
I think “infodump” is just what you call it when there’s a lot of information given at once and it’s done badly.

ELM
Why do you have to explain it instead of just introducing it as it comes up.

pookel
But I think it’s possible to do it well, in an entertaining narrative style.

BahamutBrat
Well, in that case it doesn’t drive the plot.

dempsey
I feel like we’re talking more technical than about worldbuilding.

Peter
It depends. Do your characters know and expect such a place?

eyeblink
Or foreshadow it, if it’s especially vital.

dempsey
The way the info is conveyed as opposed to info construction itself.

BahamutBrat
Magic monsters drive the plot

Peter
to them, it’s normal, like?

Maxmordon
You can’t show a fantasy world and explain nothing, nor can you sound like you’re the Encyclopedia Alternativa.

Peter
but wow, to the reader, it isn’t, eh?

ELM
Your reader doesn’t know or expect anything until you share it with them.

Peter
correct.

eyeblink
I’d say worldbuilding is part of ALL fiction, not just SF/fantasy - even if it’s set on your own high street.

eyeblink
It’s just foregrounded more in SF and fantasy.

SaraAnn
There’s a fine line inbetween, and to hit that line takes just the right amount of explanation, no?

Hollow
A lot more complicated with SF/Fantasy

Peter
But how do you show your reader stuff that to your characters is everyday mundane, but to the reader is waaaay out there?

ELM
I tend to prefer information that happens or is used and then becomes relevant.

eyeblink
More than a historical novel set in a different culture?

Peter
me too, ELM

ELM
You just say it.

Peter
that’s a “dump”

Peter
a little one, but a dump nonetheless

Peter
it’s telling... something that can’t always be avoided.

ELM
If everyone carries around a pocket full of platinum cubes to pay for stuff you just say, he pulled a cube from his pocket to pay for the soda.

eyeblink
After all, to the characters in a fantasy novel, to them they ARE in a contemporary novel, if you see what I mean.

Peter
yeah, isn’t important that it’s Platinum

ELM
No, you see what I’m saying. You don’t say everyone carries cubes for money

ELM
You say they paid with a cube, then you’ve established that cubes are money

Peter
but what if the reader thinks of sugar cubes? or he’s a SF nerd and thinks of a data cube?

eyeblink
but you can show someone using it

ELM
Maybe.

Peter
aha, maybe

ELM
So platinum cubes are worth a nickel and sugar is worth a million dollars because it’s so rare.

ELM
Again, you just say it.

Maxmordon
You don’t have to tell them, you show it with the example

Maxmordon
show vs. tell, once again

eyeblink
You could mention it’s platinum (or calcified dragon turds, or whatever) - only adds a few words and it does help with the worldbuilding.

Peter
And, as I said earlier, that’s a “dump” it’s a technique that ‘tells” the reader something he/she didn’t otherwise know. And as such, it’s acceptable.

ELM
In the case provide: While buying a shirt worth three platinum cubes, Peter asked me if I was buying a new Ford GT. I said, nah, i got no sugar.

BahamutBrat
How much implausibility can you accept in fantasy? What sort of things cause a story to break your suspension of disbelief?

eyeblink
inconsistent behaviour (assuming characters are human(oid) in the first place)

dempsey
Internal inconsistency

ELM
You can accept anything in fantasy, if it’s consistent to the fantasy’s reality.

Hollow
I can believe anything if it’s presented as consistent in that universe.

Maxmordon
Exactly, ELM

Hollow
Beat me to it, lol

dempsey
Does anybody have an example of moments of internal inconsistency that they were able to brush past?

BahamutBrat
Aside from Eragon?

dempsey
I know there were a lot of inconsistencies in the Potter series, though none come to mind.

ELM
How is everyone introducing their reality as they write.

ELM
I’m writing a piece right now about the slave trade in future earth.

Maxmordon
The fact that Harry survives a lethal spell that no one has ever survived until now

pookel
I think I don’t remember those because they WERE easy to brush past.

ELM
I am just introducing it as fact.

BahamutBrat
I’m trying to think of some, but usually if I brush past them I also forget them.

dempsey
Yeah

eyeblink
same here

BahamutBrat
What Pookel said

dempsey
But I remember they were there, and that’s something to consider

BahamutBrat
but a lot of the big names have these moments

dempsey
That you _can_ have inconsistency in a world and have the reader look past it

BahamutBrat
so if you write well, things can be forgiven

Maxmordon
We get repeatedly told that it’s the most lethal thing on Earth, but he survives it.

dempsey
So, while we say “inconsistency”

BahamutBrat
and if you worldbuild well

dempsey
To what level do we mean?

Maxmordon
That’s true, Baha

ELM
The more work you have to build on the more inconsistency you can stand.

pookel
I think implausibility in human actions is the thing that can’t be overlooked.

BahamutBrat
The level where our beta readers don’t call us out? The best we can do?

ELM
A twenty page short must be spot on. A 100,000 word book can survive a few blips.

pookel
Inconsistency in the magic system - not so much.

BahamutBrat
ELM makes a good point, as does Pookel

ELM
What do you mean pookel?

Maxmordon
There’s an inconsistency in Citizen Kane, it’s a big one. Kane is seen dying alone, yet everyone knows he said Rosebud.

eyeblink
no, the nurse heard his last words

Maxmordon
and is still a classic of the US cinema, nonetheless

BahamutBrat
And for the magic system, I think it’s good to have everything mapped out in your notes and understand how it affects the characters

ELM
And another tree falls in the forest.

pookel
I mean, if a character in a fantasy does things a real person wouldn’t, you can’t hand-wave it as “oh, it’s a fantasy world.” People should still act like people.

BahamutBrat
Run through a few magic battles so you know you have the system down, even if just a writing exercise

Maxmordon
but she was outside the bedroom

ELM
I agree pookel, but I think all stories are about mankind.

pookel
But if a spell works in one way in book 1 and a different way in book 2 ... well, maybe magic is supposed to be fluctuating in that world. Maybe it’s internally consistent in a way that’s not obvious.

eyeblink
she’s reflected in his eyes

Maxmordon
Exactly, Pookel. Human nonetheless

Peter
ALL stories are?

ELM
All.

ELM
Stories are meant to have us look at ourselves.

ELM
You imagine yourself the hero/heroine.

Peter ponders that extreme limitation of the term “story”

eyeblink
this will depend on how much you trust the writer’s ability

Maxmordon
J K Rowling admitted that some classrooms at Hogwarts fluctuates of floor now and then...

pookel
and that’s probably in the category of “mistakes so minor no one will care about them,” max

ELM
Don’t worry about it, Peter. We build our worlds and then tell the stories that fill them.

BahamutBrat
sometimes stories have us look out, at society

ELM
They have an independent life.

Maxmordon
oh

BahamutBrat
Some people care about those details, the big fans with big memories

ELM
Which details, I lost something.

BahamutBrat
the floors at Hogwarts example

eyeblink
or writers of fan lexicons

BahamutBrat
that too

ELM
I let that stuff go. When I was in school they were always rearranging the classrooms.

Maxmordon
you wouldn’t imagine the lists they have on Mugglenet.com

eyeblink
it’s a magic school - the floors could swap round

ELM
Actually a class moving locations would make the world more real.

eyeblink
maybe the floor was bored with being the bottom one and fancied being on top for a while

ELM
My mother is a teacher and her classroom has changed at least 12 times in 20 years.

BahamutBrat
Ah, so the solution is to have more random stuff in your world, so little glitches are easily explained

Maxmordon
Perhaps is that darn mirror of Erised

BahamutBrat
Moving staircases, therefore moving floors. Problem solved!

ELM
Little glitches are life. It’s comforting to have them.

eyeblink
Things go wrong in life - so don’t see why magic systems can’t have bugs in them

Maxmordon
It makes the world real, specially on first person narrations

ELM
Everyone is bringing up a good point for JK though.

ELM
She has built a world everyone knows.

BahamutBrat
Next question?

ELM
sure

BahamutBrat
Fantasy occasionally takes liberties with reality - example, travelers able to concoct a nice stew in a matter of minutes, after traveling half the day on horseback. Trope of the genre, or avoidable/unforgivable inconsistency with reality?

eyeblink
Magic Release 3.0 is in beta test

ELM
I over look that stuff, but it bothers me.

BahamutBrat
There is nothing worse for me than ‘hollywood’ riding descriptions.

Maxmordon
Things that can be avoided with proper research.

ELM
I prefer a story that sounds familiar.

BahamutBrat
Someone watched a western and put it to words

eyeblink
avoidable

Maxmordon
It makes people think Reality is Unrealistic

Hollow
That is silly

eyeblink
you, Baha, know a lot about horses, so your tolerance for inaccuracy is lesser - would that be right?

pookel
At least partly, unfair criticism.

ELM
Well, as the old saying goes, anything can happen for real, but fiction has to be believable.

Horserider
Horses? *pauses for a moment*

pookel
You can’t make amazing stew in 15 minutes, but you can make something hot and edible.

Maxmordon
you can make boiled eggs

eyeblink
find the eggs first

BahamutBrat
Eye- of course, but I’ll have some tolerance of moderate oddities here and there

Maxmordon
not all eggs are chicken eggs

ELM
Well, back to our earlier topic, you can make something delicious in 15 if that’s the norm.

eyeblink
boiled dragon eggs don’t taste great

ELM
You can’t have something delicious in 15 minutes and then complain about how it takes two hours.

pookel
I guess my point is that while I think fantasy needs to be realistic on those sorts of issues, sometimes people nitpick too much, too.

Maxmordon
You can feed 15 people with ostrich eggs

Maxmordon
exactly, pookel

ELM
I think you have to count on your readers nitpicking.

BahamutBrat
But no one should write on something they haven’t researched when TONS of people know all about it.

ELM
Especially in fantasy.

BahamutBrat
Goes for horses, castles, swords, sieges, etc

Peter
SF readers pick nits worse than fantasy readers do

eyeblink
Thing is - the average reader doesn’t know huge amounts about horses, or military stuff, so they would tolerate things that someone more expert would trip up on

Hollow
No excuse for the writer not knowing his stuff, though

eyeblink
And you can tell if the author has REALLY done her research or not

dempsey
Now, when it comes to Facts That Are Wrong

ELM
That’s one of the challenges with epics. If you tell a small story with a narrow focus you don’t have to know everything. Not so for an epic.

Hollow
If you’re going to write about something realistic, do your research.

dempsey
Nothing pisses me off more than sound in space.

Maxmordon
But eye, we must be accurate. If they didn’t know before, they know now.

Hollow
Lol

BahamutBrat
Eye, I might have to find stats on the percent of the human population that rides- it’s huge

dempsey
Speaking TV, I know viewers get upset if there’s no sound in space

dempsey
So it’s one of those tropes that you have to put up with, because people, by and large, are dumb.

eyeblink
For example, Dan Simmon’s lack of an ear for Brit dialogue in The Terror I noticed - non-Brits might pass it by.

dempsey
Well. Dumb about basic physics. And space.

dempsey
But as I said, it’s a trope we have to accept.

Maxmordon
Remember the Nanny?

dempsey
Do you guys have anything you hate with a passion that is constantly Wrong but is always Present?

dempsey
And is there a plausible reason for it? (IE Viewer/reader expectation?)

Peter
eh?

Maxmordon
Well, people complained that Maxwell’s accent was bad that Niles was quite good and perhaps Niles should coach Maxwell.

BahamutBrat
the MC getting more powerful (magic worldbuilding) but then being weaker than the Big Bad

ELM
Dempsey, if you were in space, outside you’d be dead. So it wouldn’t matter if you could hear. Since you’ll be suited up or in a ship, won’t those materials create sound?

QueenB
Like non-Cajuns trying to sound like one. e.g. Dennis Quaid in “The Big Easy”

Maxmordon
The actor who plays Maxwell is from Liverpool and the actor who plays Niles is from Iowa.

Peter
ELM, you have obviously not read the Robinson’s “Star Dancer” series.

dempsey
If two objects strike one another out in space, and I’m in my ship and there’s no contact betwixt the two? No

ELM
I have not.

Peter
(people outside, in space, having a GREAT time.)

Peter grins

Dermit
You can break any rules you want in sci fi, just so long as you give a compelling why they’re broken

ELM
Fair, but there will be sounds within the ship. Yes?

dempsey
Um... yes? Because there’s air?

BahamutBrat
That’s a tight suit, P

dempsey
I fail to see what you’re driving at

Peter
but our topic tonight is ... Fantasy, eh?

ELM
devil’s advocate.

dempsey
I thought our topic was worldbuilding, and we were discussing things which are factually wrong but tropes.

BahamutBrat
we can talk SF

ELM
I hate the idea of sound in empty space, but I get the idea of feeling an explosion or something like that as the waves pass through your ship.

dempsey
Eg horses galloping for twenty hours straight

dempsey
ELM not really

Peter sighs. He can never keep any of this stuff straight -- especially when someone else keeps changing the rules all the time.

eyeblink
not super genetically enhanced horses then

dempsey
The concussive blast requires air to compress and expand.

dempsey
There’d be heat, sure

BahamutBrat
They need to put those fantasy horses in the Kentucky Derby

Peter
heh

Maxmordon
I always hated how unrealistic Dark Lords are in fantasy

dempsey
But what I’m trying to ask

Peter
Hi Yo Silver!

dempsey
As related to the ORIGINAL question

dempsey
Is can you think of tropes that are wrong but we have all the time anyway, that are in there for a good reason?

Peter
wizards can ... do ... (whatever they want, can, desire) ... without any explanation beyond “it’s magic?”

Peter
like that?

Maxmordon
They exist because some people didn’t do their homework too many times.

Maxmordon
A wizard did it.

pookel
dragon flight physics?

dempsey
Yeah, dragon flight physics could be good.

ELM
Ah, but dragons come to us from generations of story telling.

Maxmordon
Pookel, Pratchett did it with farting dragons.

pookel
There is no plausible way for something the size of a dragon to fly with the wings they’re portrayed with, without magic or them being nearly weightless.

pookel
or farting, lol

ELM
You mean like a bee.

Hollow
I never liked the use of wands and a few words to use any kind of magic

Peter
Seems to me, the fantasy writer can pretty much make up anything he/she wants, as long as he/she keeps things consistent throughout the story.

Maxmordon
That’s why the farting dragons live on the moon.

pookel
But I think that’s one unrealistic thing you can get away with because readers accept it

dempsey
Then should we as writers take that into consideration when writing?

ELM
Agreed, Peter.

dempsey
I mean, if I were to write skiffy, you best be sure I’d make no sound in space. But would that upset the generic public? Should I care?

Maxmordon
yes

Peter
In skiffy, dempster, you can do anything you want too.

ELM
I don’t think it has to upset your readers.

Peter
It’s not very far removed from fantasy.

dempsey
Or fantasy

ELM
Again, your reality.

ELM
Here’s a question that actually goes back up to the statement I made earlier. Is the world more important or the story?

Maxmordon
story

eyeblink
should be inextricable

QueenB
story

Peter
story

ELM
I agree.

eyeblink
no world no story, no story no world

BahamutBrat
But they are woven together, even if the story is more important.

Peter
with caveats

QueenB
but the story is shaped by the world

ELM
What do you mean eye?

eyeblink
and vice versa

BahamutBrat
What Eye and Queen said

Maxmordon
You can make the most awesome and elaborated world but without a good plot, is useless.

Peter
In a SF thriller, you had BETTER not put in magical situations without some explanation sometime before the denouement.

ELM
I think a world is built to support your story. If it’s particularly good, it will support many stories.

Peter
But in a fantasy, I believe you can get away with LOTS more.

ELM
But I think you can pull the story out of the world.

Peter
At least, all the fantasies I’ve read do.

Maxmordon
But you can make the greatest story ever told with a half-baked world, IF the story is good covering its ass

Peter
kinda, Max

Peter
Depends on the genre, I believe.

Maxmordon
Look at Peter Pan.

Maxmordon
for example

Peter
if you have people flying ... like Peter Pan...

ELM
Max, that just means you’ve built your story on a crap foundation. It won’t survive.

Peter
What’s your explanation?

ELM
But you live in the house, not the basement.

Peter
Magic? Only Magic?

Peter
Then it’s fantasy.

ELM
Unless it’s your mom’s house.

Maxmordon
Mom doesn’t have a basement.

ELM
Then you might be in trouble.

Maxmordon
So, we never build in rock but we must pretend we build in rock with the sand.

Maxmordon
See Star Wars, for example

BahamutBrat
Alright, next topic?

BahamutBrat
Defining a consistent reality - if it is done well and the author remains true to their established rules (magic, travel, technology, etc...), are you more likely to accept the fantastical?

Peter
My only fantasy is that I might actually make money up here.

ELM
Yes.

ELM
So, how do you create a consistent reality?

Maxmordon
Single Biome Planet, races with the same job, an unbelievable big yet dumb empire, etc.

dempsey
Wasn’t that the first question?

Maxmordon
and a story older than heck, yet is amazing and beloved my most

Peter
You don’t interject stuff just to get the hero out of dutch without using that same thing to get the villain out of dutch as well.

ELM
Agreed.

ELM
I also prefer that the villain has an easier time of it.

eyeblink
Or characters able to levitate dying in a fall, for example

ELM
Dempsey, I can’t remember. My consistent reality in this thread sucks.

Peter
If you have someone with the power to create an atomic blast in his palm without damage to himself, then you either make that dude a god, or you let someone else figure out how to do it too.

Maxmordon
Exactly, Pete

Hollow
Lol

Peter
That’s the big problem in the TV show Heroes.

ELM
And like eye said, don’t have them killed by falling down the stairs.

Peter
And an even bigger problem in the TV show LOST.

eyeblink
His palm could be made out of lead (then it would be heavy).

Peter
or, eyeblink, he’s magic

Peter shrugs

Peter
You can do LOTS when you use the word “magic”.

ELM
that brings up a good point, I hate a surprise ending with no foreshadowing and no lead in.

ELM
In the end your MC is nuts.

ELM
In the end it was aliens

Peter
deus ex machina

ELM
yeppers.

ELM
hate em

Maxmordon
That sums it up very well

dempsey
ELM makes a great point about the foreshadowing.

Peter
“...and then, magic happened.”

Maxmordon
Well, as I was saying, the worldbuilding in Star Wars is not complicated.

Peter
indeed

Peter
I have a question.

dempsey
There’s a lot of endings (I’m looking at you, Shyamalan) that are shock endings with absolutely no lead-in.

eyeblink
And a plot nicked from Kurosawa’s The Hidden Forest.

ELM
So, how much foreshadowing do you need to avoid deus ex machina?

ELM
Shoot, Peter.

dempsey
But then you’ve got, like... the ending of Fight Club instantly springs to mind.

Peter
oh damn

dempsey
Foreshadowed very well

Hollow
I was gonna say that

Hollow
About Hidden Forest

Peter
I read the other comments and forgot

dempsey
Fortress, guys

dempsey
Hidden Fortress

Hollow
Yeah lol

eyeblink
yes, sorry it’s late over this side of the Atlantic

Hollow
And I just watched it a few days ago

dempsey
(You’ll have to forgive me, btw, I’m a fan of samurai cinema.)

eyeblink
Though The Hidden Forest sounds like a good title - offered free gratis and for nothing

Peter
oh. Why is it, that when the term “fantasy” is mentioned, the first thing that comes to most folks’ minds is “magical beings, happenings” etc.?

ELM
I love Samurai cinema.

dempsey
Peter: Because everybody saw Lord of the Rings?

dempsey
And Harry Potter?

Peter
I don’t
Peter
but I like a good fantasy

ELM
Because there are more successful fantasy pieces with magic and stuff than not.

dempsey
I didn’t say “liked”

dempsey
I said “saw”

ELM
IMO

Maxmordon
Because Lord of the Rings have been copied and copied for many, many people.

Peter is thinking of “American Gods” by Gaiman.

Hollow
Heh, because the majority of population is ignorant.

Hollow
They see/hear fantasy and think high fantasy.

Hollow
Walking trees

Hollow
Magic

dempsey
I think maybe I misunderstand the scope of your question?

Hollow
Rings and volcanoes

Peter shudders

dempsey
Are you asking why general populous thinks that, or why we default that way when we speak?

ELM
Because it’s what many of us read when we were 12

Hollow
Not I.

ELM
And I still like the idea of a beautiful elf.

Maxmordon
I used to read Orwell when I was 12

Hollow
Diane Duane’s Wizard series ftw

eyeblink
don’t we all ELM

Peter
yeah, why does the term “fantasy” always bring to mind (first), elves, sorcerers, wizards, medieval cultures, etc?

Hollow
Kicks the tar out of Harry Potter

ELM
I became a reader because of The Hobbit.

ELM
A teacher gave it to me when I was 11.

Hollow
I became a reader because of Artemis Fowl I believe.

ELM
Read a ton of sword and sorcery stuff through high school.

Maxmordon
I became a reader because of Harry Potter

eyeblink
My teacher gave me Elidor (Alan Garner) to read when I was ten.

BahamutBrat
A genre is the sum of its parts.

dempsey
Peter: I’d say because that’s the broadly-used imagery when referring to fantasy.

Peter
right.

Maxmordon
I blame the fantasy stereotype to Dungeons and Dragons!

dempsey
And that I believe comes from folklore.

Peter
Because MOST of the titles on the fantasy shelf are just that.

ELM
right.

dempsey
We as kids are raised on fairies and dragons and princesses in towers etc etc

ELM
But that’s not bad, is it?

Peter
but that really does limit the genre “fantasy” does it not?

dempsey
Yes and no.

ELM
I don’t think so.

Maxmordon
It does, Pete.

ELM
It gives us an anchor to grow from.

Peter
I don’t really like elves and sorcerer magical fantasy trope stuff.

Hollow
Me either.

Maxmordon
That’s why we have terms like “Magical Realism” since Fantasy makes people think it is childish.

Hollow
And

ELM
Sword and Sorcery gives us all a section of shelves in the book store to call home.

Hollow
nerdish

ELM
We then expand the limits of what that means.

Maxmordon
Exactly, Hollow

Peter
but I like certain impossible events that occur that can’t necessarily be explained away with science (as in SF).

Maxmordon
People like Gaiman and Mieville should be on the spotlight showing fantasy is more

Peter
If I see a naked chest and a sword on the book jacket, that book remains on the shelf.

ELM
Me too, but how would you promote them in the absence of Fantasy?

Hollow
Lol

dempsey
Maxmordon: Um... they are?

dempsey
Gaiman’s a fscking rockstar.

ELM
Peter, you need to stray this way from the Romance section.

Peter
lol

Peter lives in Larry Niven’s world.

Peter
But I take advice, sometimes, from Greg Bear.

Hollow
I’ve only read Gaiman’s Graveyard Book.

Maxmordon
Well, that’s in US and England

Hollow
And started Coraline, but wasn’t for me.

Maxmordon
Outside, they are unknown.

ELM
Just a collection of shorts from Gaiman.

ELM
I liked them though.

QueenB
Do all of you write fantasy?

Maxmordon
I think so.

Hollow
I have a few bones to pick with Graveyard Book, though.

eyeblink
You should see the crowds of young women who turn up when Gaiman and China Mieville make appearances.

Hollow
I haven’t written any fantasy.

dempsey
Maxmordon: I heard he had a lot of fans in... one country in South America I suddenly can’t remember which.

ELM
And Coraline was just wrong... Explaining to my seven-year old why the old ladies were in pasties was too much.

eyeblink
Both GOHs at Eastercon last year (plus Tanith Lee).

dempsey
Brazil?

Peter
The only Gaiman I read is “American Gods” and I was duly impressed.

Hollow
lol

Maxmordon
Could be, Dempsey, they are a bit snobbish.

eyeblink
I’ve read short stories by Gaiman, not a novel as yet.

dempsey
I think I remember reading about Sao Paolo on his blog.

Maxmordon
Argentina, Chile and Brazil see themselves superior than the rest of South Americans.

dempsey
Anyway

ELM
The man has a strange mind.

dempsey
Do they?

ELM
It’s kind of nice.

Hollow
I saw Gaiman on Colbert.

Hollow
Strange guy.

Peter
heh, me too

Maxmordon
Yeah, dempsey. Argentina and Chile especially because they are far culturally advanced, you people know Neruda and Borges while we don’t have much to show...

Peter
Funny thing, the photo of him on the back of his books has to be like 20 years old

ELM
at least.

Maxmordon
Hehehe, that’s true. Pete

Peter
well, folks...

Maxmordon
Same thing happened to me when I bought Stardust

Peter
the hour has passed, and very fast.

ELM
Thanks for hosting.

Pthom · Apr 15, 2009

April 9, 2009, Transcript: Inventing new creatures in SF and Fantasy

Peter
Welcome to tonight’s Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Chat.

KittyPryde
to warm us up, What's your favorite fictional creature/species (and what story are they from)?

Peter
PIERSON's PUPPETEERS! from Larry Niven's Known Space series

BahamutBrat
The evil baddie in Legend!

Maxmordon
The Oliphaunt from Lord of the Rings, since it could be quite factible

Horserider
The dragons from Anne McCaffrey's Pern series

BahamutBrat
The aliens in Alien were bad arse.

Peter
they were, but far from my favorite

KittyPryde
oh! the librarian from Unseen University, from the Discworld (even though technically he used to be a guy) he is an orangutan librarian

Peter
heh

KittyPryde
OK, pushing on to our first discussion question: What sorts of things do we need to consider when creating biologically plausible alien species?

tjwriter
I'm trying to think. I know there are things I like...

Horserider
Anatomy

KittyPryde
What about the anatomy?

Horserider
They have to be physically possible.

Maxmordon
A logical way to exist

Maxmordon
Exactly, Horserider

Peter
so water-breathing birds is a no-no, eh?

BahamutBrat
yeah, no giant heads with no counter balance please

KittyPryde
or flying animals that are too heavy to ever get off the ground

BahamutBrat
P- that's a penguin with evolution smarts

Peter
big blocks of Roquefort cheese with feelers and brains?

BahamutBrat
Ecosystem is important

BahamutBrat
they drive evolution

KittyPryde
hmm intelligent cheeses...

KittyPryde
like, a food chain that can support them?

BahamutBrat
if there was no niche to bring about that creature, there can be no creature

BahamutBrat
food chain, enviro (woods, water, w/e)

KittyPryde
i just read a thing that said it would be impossible for most fictional vampires to really exist in the food chain

BahamutBrat
And there won't be fire breathing dragons unless they were too stupid to catch food some other way

BahamutBrat
or had an enemy to defend against

KittyPryde
cause they vampify too much of their food source

Horserider
Why? there's plenty of food for the vamps

BahamutBrat
Hahaha

KittyPryde
but they bite people to feed, then vampify them

BahamutBrat
Yeah, don't turn your food into competing top predators

Peter
ok, being serious now: creatures that inhabit Earth-like environs, are relatively easy to concoct, are they not? I mean, you can just play a bit with real evolution and come up with another being.

KittyPryde
then the NEW vamps need food, and so on

KittyPryde
peter--true

tjwriter
Unless vamps fall under the drain=dead, near death = vamp clause

KittyPryde
and you can also imagine a cataclysmic change to the environment that would cause earth species to change drastically

Peter
Whereas, when creating alien beings, you have to not only come up with the creature, but an environment that supports it

Maxmordon
Exactly, Pete

tjwriter
true

KittyPryde
but you have more leeway of course, with aliens

Peter
I wonder: how many here have written stories that incorporate fictional beings?

KittyPryde raises her hand

Peter
only one?

Maxmordon
I was thinking on using Ostriches

Horserider
Oh i have! I forgot about that story

Maxmordon
I mean, a different genus of Ostriches

Maxmordon
Like, stronger to carry chariots

KittyPryde
ah. super-ostriches!

Maxmordon
And they are different from ours like dogs are different from wolves

KittyPryde
so they would be bred/domesticated?

Maxmordon
Exactly

Peter
that's not terribly different, Max, wolves to dogs

Maxmordon
I know...

KittyPryde
you can do a lot with breeding, tho. consider a rhodesian ridgeback, bred to kill lions, and a chihuahua, bred to be carried around the mall and go "Yipe!" a lot

Horserider
most small dogs were bred to kill rats and other rodents

KittyPryde
or that...heheheh

TauCeti
terriers

Peter
ok but breeding for specific traits doesn't have a very big impact when you're looking for the fantastical

TauCeti
are we talking extraterrestrial or mutated terrestrial

Peter
yes

Peter
either

KittyPryde
we're talking all sorts

Peter
and possibly both together, I suppose

Peter
Tau, have you written a fictional being?

TauCeti
i attended a workshop class for that many years ago in Chicago

Peter
alien species or some other fantastical being?

KittyPryde
ok, let's push on to our next question: How do we create creatures that are plausible within a fantasy system?

Peter doesn't know

Horserider
Consider what's possible by that planet's laws. like gravity

tjwriter
They have to fit within the world

KittyPryde
if a creature has magical powers/attributes, how do we keep them from being tooooo powerful?

tjwriter
Or it becomes too much for the reader to believe.

Hollow
Well, as it was often said in the last chat: Just be consistent with your universe. And have the same rules apply to everyone/thing.

tjwriter
That too

BahamutBrat
Find weaknesses to exploit.

Peter
mmm, what's a "fantasy system?"

BahamutBrat
even if you have to think of basics of speed, mass, strength, firepower

KittyPryde
the way the world works in your fictional universe that is fantastical

KittyPryde
Do very powerful creatures NEED weaknesses? Or can they just hang out at the top of the food chain?

Hollow
They can, but usually they gotta die.

Hollow
For usually no other reason than they're an obstacle

Peter
Kitty, you're not making a distinction then, between a fantasy world (like Tolkien's middle Earth) and say, a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri?

tjwriter
everything has a weakness.

TauCeti
unless your creature is a shapeshifter

Horserider
Of course they need weaknesses

KittyPryde
i am. fantasy system entails a universe that has things outside the laws of science--like magic. or elves. or suchlike.

Taipan
In my novel, I have a wide range of Alien species, as well as creatures.

BahamutBrat
There's always the object weakness: lust for gold, aversion to crosses.

Hollow
Always the good ole chemical weakness. The Witch and her water

KittyPryde
ah! interesting. a fatal personality flaw

Hollow
How awful she must have smelled, not ever having washed.

Taipan
Like Vampire and Leprechauns.

KittyPryde
or the death star exhaust port weakness

KittyPryde
LOL! hollow, maybe she is like a chinchilla-she takes dust baths.

KittyPryde
ok, new question: What makes you say 'No way!' when reading about a SF/F fictional critter? What annoys you about fictional critters?

Peter
any creature that produces fire from its respiratory system is a no-no

Horserider
When they aren't physically possible

Hollow
When they roar and it’s supposed to be scary

Horserider
Or they have no weaknesses

Taipan
I don't have a problem unless it isn't believable for the situation.

Horserider
Fire is possible. There are a few situations that make it possible.

Maxmordon
When they are ridiculous mixes

Hollow
Yeah it is possible.

Maxmordon
Or they are Pokemon

Hollow
Or Gremlins

Peter
Pac man is ultimately unbelievable.

BahamutBrat
so how can we reasonably have fire breathing critters?

Taipan
Dragons, hell hounds, things that are dark.

BahamutBrat
If magic is standard in a certain way, fire breathing could be plausible

Peter
little sparkers on their noses?

Taipan
I think it depends on the setting and story.

BahamutBrat
but if you have a general fantasy and then throw it in just b/c, then heh?

dal
Alot of real-life creatures seem impossible... like electric eels or pistol shrimps. Or pterodactyls.

Horserider
Discovery channel (or it might have been animal planet) did a show as if dragons were real. it was believable.

Taipan
I like dragons.

KittyPryde
or those fish with the transparent heads...those are implausible, but real

TauCeti
they had a diet that included sulphur

Hollow
I liked dragons before liking dragons became cool and everyone got tattoos of them…

BahamutBrat
I used to own several, Kitty.

Taipan
I remember seeing something somewhere where they were saying that one particular dinosaur supposedly blew fire.

Hollow
I'll have to find that episode/show

KittyPryde makes her skeptical face

Taipan
Not sure where I saw it though.

BahamutBrat
Please do- post it in the chat discussion thread

Hollow
Animal Planet, according to its site

KittyPryde
do you think creatures that live in extreme environments can be plausible (living in gas, high pressure, extreme cold/heat)?

Hollow
Definitely

dal
Of course.

Hollow
They do exist

Taipan
yeah, they do exist

Maxmordon
I do

Maxmordon
they can have evolved with time

Hollow
Creatures living in extreme cold at bottom of sea, in arctic circle, etc

Horserider
the crest enabled lambeosaurs to breathe fire from their nose (but there's no evidence that the delicate bones of the nose were ever exposed to high temperatures regularly).

KittyPryde
as far as we know, nothing lives inside of a star, for instance. But I have read plausible fictional ones.

Taipan
What about the penguins and seals? They live in freezing environments.

Hollow
I even remember seeing something about life inside a volcano.

Hollow
Not very complex life, but life

dal
like Water Bears are an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrada

Taipan
Life is life.

KittyPryde
And when they discovered the deep sea vent tube worms, scientists were shocked.

Horserider
There's life in the bottom of the ocean where there's no light and no oxygen

BahamutBrat
The Weta can be full frozen and thaws out just fine

BahamutBrat
that's an insect

Hollow
Not like Congo where there are apes living inside a volcano

Hollow
Is what I meant

KittyPryde
I think water bears can go into hibernation and be sent into space and then retrieved and still live

BahamutBrat
I've heard of that

KittyPryde
or something

KittyPryde
and they are so cute!

BahamutBrat
but they only manage it for a few hours/days

Horserider
I think it was some kind of worm that lived in the arctic they did that with

Taipan
I have a particular alien with the ability to adjust to any environment (within reason) by adapting the temperature of his blood.

Hollow
And let is not forget SpaceBat.

KittyPryde
Above a certain temperature (195 F), DNA unravels, so i think that's an upper limit for a dna-having critter

Hollow
A moment of silence.

KittyPryde
spacebat, you say?

Hollow
Aye. A bat that clung to a shuttle and became the first bat to go into space.

Taipan
What about creatures that don't live in any environment and dwell in space.

dal
definitely.

Taipan
Outside the atmosphere.

Hollow
Like Wake Angels in Titan A.E.

Taipan
Like space dragons or creatures.

KittyPryde
If you live in the vacuum of space, what do you feed off of?

TauCeti
so we're sticking largely with carbon based life-forms?

Hollow
Good question

Horserider
What do you breathe?

KittyPryde
(Titan AE OMG what a good movie!)

Hollow
Radiation energy?

Taipan
yeah, just like the whales in Titan. A. E

KittyPryde
radiation is good, but you need MASS to grow/have a body

TauCeti
Solar ENERGY?

Peter
mass?

Taipan
I have to say I was pleasantly surprised when I saw that movie.

KittyPryde
like, you have to be made out of STUFF. Elements.

Taipan
I had expected it to be kiddy.

Hollow
Love it.

KittyPryde
stuff. elements.

Peter
some would claim that's precisely HOW critters are made

Hollow
Sometimes, like Titan A.E. it doesn't even have to make a whole lot of sense, or you don't have to explain what they are.

Hollow
The Drej are "pure energy"

Taipan
I agree. As long as it makes sense to the story.

Hollow
Nobody explains how the hell they came to be

KittyPryde
A being of pure energy can work. the author has to do some hand-waving about it, but I think it can work well.

Taipan
I actually kind of have a being like that in my story.

Peter
once, I envisioned a sentient creature that was composed of a bacteria-like mat that covered an entire planet. Was gonna write a story involving it. But then, I found a book in the library that did exactly that.

Peter
really ticked me off

Hollow
Lol. I hate that feeling

Taipan
It is pretty much a star.

Hollow
Thinking you have a really original idea and it’s already been done exactly.

KittyPryde
doh!

Taipan
Yeah, me too.

BahamutBrat
Do it better Peter

KittyPryde
there have been lots of developments recently in how we understand how bacteria make films--so you could probably look at the research and put a new twist on it

KittyPryde
i'll throw out a new question: What are some ways of handling the topic of sentience/personhood of invented species? (where do we draw the line? What are some ways your characters can approach the issue?)

KittyPryde
What makes an alien/fantasy critter sentient or not?

ELM
Their humanity

BahamutBrat
I get irked when aliens are too human

BahamutBrat
or some animals

Hollow
Me too

ELM
fair, but your reader has to relate.

BahamutBrat
but they are different b/c of TWO THINGS! zomg!!11!

KittyPryde
so humanity=caring about others?

Taipan
I am currently reading a book about a species of creature that travels backwards through time while we continue to move forward.

Hollow
When their thought processes are exactly same as human or they speak perfect English.

BahamutBrat
true, but there's a balance

ELM
That is one aspect

Hollow
Now that's interesting Taipan

ELM
But it doesn't have to be caring

ELM
just something we relate too

ELM
greed

ELM
lust

ELM
hate

Taipan
As much as I really like the concept, it is severely screwing with my head when I try to think how it could be possible.

ELM
What do you mean, Taipan?

ELM
crossing in time?

Taipan
I keep trying to figure out how the two time lines join together, but can't quite figure it out.

KittyPryde
is there more to sentience than intelligence?

ELM
That only requires one reality

ELM
in constant flux.

Taipan
Well, if time is in one flowing stream, how does the backwards timeline cross and interact with the rest.

ELM
Yes, sentience requires connection

ELM
Think of a river

ELM
eddies and currents

ELM
water flows back as well as forward, though basically in one direction

Taipan
The backwards travellers are like seers of the future, yet they know nothing of the past.

Taipan
ELM, I think you are smart.

ELM
Kitty, do you agree?

ELM
Thank you, Taipan.

KittyPryde
it's making my brain hurt also!

KittyPryde
i read a book a while ago that had creatures who were intelligent but not self-aware

ELM
It's an interesting concept, what is your author trying to do with it?

ELM
And Kitty, what about sentience.

KittyPryde
they worked together, communicated, and did stuff, but they didn't KNOW they thought about stuff, and were creatures

ELM
Do you think it requires connection.

KittyPryde
i dunno, like gorillas are smart, and like to hang out with people...but aren't sentient...

ELM
Creature is a subjective term.

Taipan
It almost sounds like they were a massive computer.

ELM
The creature thinks the same of us.

KittyPryde
no, i mean, they didn't know they were BEINGS

Taipan
Very intelligent, but without a self.

BahamutBrat
wait, define sentient

KittyPryde
they didn't have consciousness

BahamutBrat
sentient means not a tree

KittyPryde
oh does it?

ELM
Assuming trees have no identity

Taipan
Does it?

KittyPryde
but, is a nematode sentient?

BahamutBrat
and there is growing evidence of *self awareness* in primates

Taipan
What is a nematode?

ELM
Primates in particular.

greenroom
I'd say gorillas are sentient, by the definition of sentient that I’m used to.

TauCeti
it reacts to its surroundings

BahamutBrat
they surgically put paint on their forehead and the primate wakes up, looks in a mirror, and touches his forehead.

KittyPryde
ok, what's the word for what humans are and animals aren't?

ELM
BahamutBrat, you can find lots of sentience discussions among Vegans.

KittyPryde
nematode=teeny little worm.

ELM
Good arguments, but I still love me some swine.

BahamutBrat
Depends on who is writing the book, Kitty.

TauCeti
self-awareness

Taipan
Thanks Kitty.

BahamutBrat
biology is growing and changing

ELM
do they colonize, nemotodes?

BahamutBrat
I'm talking science studies though, ELM

BahamutBrat
and I love me some meat

KittyPryde
i don't think so...

BahamutBrat
They did crazy stuff with dolphins that indicated dolphins could say/think 'I don't know'.

ELM
I would presume socialization is a sign of sentience.

KittyPryde
so if we met aliens, how would we decide whether or not to give them 'personhood'?

Taipan
Definitely.

ELM
Animals communicate quite effectively with one another, even across species.

ELM
That's sentience.

KittyPryde
ie, being able to vote, rather than being able to be dinner?

Taipan
To socialize is to be more than a tree, I think anyway.

BahamutBrat
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.

BahamutBrat
2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

BahamutBrat
Sentience

KittyPryde
Sentience=sensing stuff then?

ELM
If you're hungry, eat them. If not, find out if they'd like to trade.

TauCeti
sapience?

Hollow
Being aware

BahamutBrat
What was that other word I was gonna look up? lol

KittyPryde
yeah maybe that's it

BahamutBrat
other than self awareness

ELM
That's a rabbit hole.

BahamutBrat
Here we go, cognition-

BahamutBrat
1. The mental process of knowing, including aspects such as awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment.

BahamutBrat
2. That which comes to be known, as through perception, reasoning, or intuition; knowledge.

ELM
Assume everything has a certain amount of sentience.

Taipan
What about a rock?

Taipan
Not a rock creature?

ELM
So do you mean a meaningful memory.

BahamutBrat
So, according to most people, animals lack some of those cognitive elements

ELM
Allow me to rephrase, living being must have some sort of sentience.

Hollow
Most animals.

ELM
The question is where do we draw the line between food, labour, friend.

ELM
I would say all animals are sentient.

Taipan
Depends on the food chain.

Hollow
But a cat knows after a few times climbing on the table when it gets smacked it’s not supposed to be up there.

BahamutBrat
That's cultural ELM

Taipan
If I am bigger than you, that means you are food.

ELM
What do you mean BahamutBrat?

KittyPryde
what about children?

BahamutBrat
some cultures eat horses, some freak out at the very idea

Taipan
Not so sure about that.

ELM
Not necessarily.

Hollow
We could eat a vulture. But vulture could eat us.

ELM
Right.

KittyPryde
children /= food

ELM
I agree.

Hollow
I hear horse is very tasty.

ELM
it sucks actually

ELM
You’d have to be very poor to try it.

Hollow
Huh.

BahamutBrat
Some people in the US think horses are for working (even if work is carrying a rider at a show) and some thing they are for pets or both (show years and retirement years as a lawn ornament)

ELM
My father is a minister, retired. I've done a fair amount of mission work.You eat what they eat.

BahamutBrat
Depends on the age at slaughter and quality ELM

Horserider
I enjoy arguing the point of horse slaughter

BahamutBrat
goat is nasty, kid is good

ELM
Goat is good.

ELM
but that is aside from the point.

KittyPryde
goat curry is good. Despite its sentience

Horserider
Never had goat

ELM
Sentience.

Taipan
Well I only eat chicken and fish.

Horserider
I only eat chicken, fish, beef and pork

BahamutBrat
Mmm, goat curry. Wait, is it the goat or the curry that is sentient? heh

Taipan
Isn't that all the main meat groups?

KittyPryde
i ate a sea urchin once, but i regretted it.

ELM
KittyPryde, I suspect you want to know when Capt Kirk should think animal vs. potential bed mate

Taipan
Or at least in the American culture.

KittyPryde
YES!

^Fingers^
horse isn’t bad

BahamutBrat
Well, you don't know until you try ELM

ELM
It's an interesting question that we should all be asking as SF writers

KittyPryde
tho for kirk, i think 2 legs + boobage are the only criteria ;-)

Taipan
I think horserider is going to kill Fingers.

ELM
That's the way it seemed.

Taipan
Just joking.

ELM
Not sure, Kitty. I'd have to say you feel it out.

ELM
Don't jump on the chance to subjugate alien species and monitor their behavior.

KittyPryde
hmm

ELM
If they attempt to work with you, they're sentient.

KittyPryde
There’s not a quiz you can give them?

ELM
If they defend their territory without making overly aggressive movement beyond their boundaries, they are probably sentient.

ELM
If they show the ability to learn, sentient. Pavlov's dog and all. Not that I recommend experimenting.

ELM
For my own work, I use trade as the great equalizer.

ELM
If you can sell an alien something or trade them for something of value, good.

KittyPryde
ahh

ELM
If they want to war with you, maybe you can trade after kicking their butt.

Peter
Well folks.

Peter
this be the end of the hour. Thanks for coming

Kitty Pryde · May 10, 2009

April 16, 2009 SF/F Chat Transcript: Just Outside of SF/F: Interstitial, Slipstream, New Weird, and Magical Realism!

KittyPryde
Welcome to tonight's Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Chat.

KittyPryde
the first question is a two parter:

KittyPryde
How do you define fantasy in one sentence? How do you define science fiction in one sentence?

KittyPryde
i would define fantasy as fiction with elements that don't exist in our world, and can't exist, given what we know about science.

Baham
Fantasy- magic elements/beasts in a historic or current world

Baham
alternate world included

KittyPryde
i would define science fiction as fiction with elements that don't exist, but COULD exist, whether in past or future

Sharon
I want to say that science fiction is the fiction of the implausible, and fantasy is the fiction of the impossible.

Sharon
But I'm not sure that works.

Horserider
Sci-fi would be anything taking place in the future with aliens, futuristic tech, robots, etc

KittyPryde
i think i read a similar quote recently, sharon

Baham
SF- speculative fic with science/tech

littlebear91
A journey through a dream that seemed never ending. The future of our invention and the imagination of our minds are implanted.

Baham
I like that definition Sharon

Sharon
I probably did steal it from somewhere, Kitty :|

KittyPryde
interesting and poetical definitions for sure, littlebear

KittyPryde
we have the big wide worlds of the speculative when we write SF/F, so the next question is:

KittyPryde
[/B][/U] What are the 'rules' of fantasy? [/B][/U]

KittyPryde
what do we HAVE TO do when we write fantasy?

Baham
Have fun

Horserider
Make it physically possible

KittyPryde
but, magic spells aren't physically possible

Baham
There should be some magical what if

Baham
what if unicorns existed

littlebear91
The boundaries are endless, through it must somehow relates to our daily life

Baham
what if you could cast spells

KittyPryde
so, there has to be a what if SOMETHING, where something is an element that can't exist in the world as we know it...

Horserider
Well...viable then. Doesn't make the reader go "yeah right"

littlebear91
cast spells? Ohhh, cool, that would be like living in the world of harry potter

KittyPryde
it has to be believable?

Horserider
Yes that's a better word

Baham
I don't believe bunnies talk, but Watership Down was totally believable

KittyPryde
do there have to be rules in our fantasy?

littlebear91
hm. it has to be emotional in my point of view and the plot must be interesting

Baham
Yes and no, Kitty

Sharon
There has to be something that wrenches it away from realism in some dimension -- but I define fantasy broadly.

Baham
We can follow a set of guidelines, but if we stray outside them, then we just get labeled something else (SF, intersticies, etc)

KittyPryde
does fantasy need a 'magic system' (something that we bring up all the time in SFF forum)?

Baham
If it's sword and sorcery or medieval, then usually, yes

littlebear91
well, I think we can have a technological system that advances well beyond the current ones we have

littlebear91
For example, I would classify Matrix as a fantasy even though it has nothing to do with sorcery

KittyPryde
ok, in a similar vein:

KittyPryde
What are the 'rules' of SF?

Baham
have technology

Horserider
futuristic technology

Hollow
Has to have technology that doesn't already exist

Sharon
There needs to be scientific extrapolation of some sort.

Baham
or alternate past technology (futuristic for them)

littlebear91
Science related technological advancement that is unknown to the present

Dale
And the technology must play an essential role in the story.

Dale
If the story would work without the technological advance, it's probably some other kinda story with SciFi window dressing.

Baham
agreed Dale

KittyPryde
sorry if i fall behind, folks, my internet connection is being unkind to me

littlebear91
I concur with Baham

KittyPryde
ok, to switch gears ever so slightly:

KittyPryde
Can anybody think of any books that are SFF, but shelved in another section of the bookstore? And why are they there, rather than SFF?

Sharon
"The Handmaid's Tale," Margaret Atwood.

Dale
Time Traveler's Wife. Handmaid's Tale. Yiddish Policeman's Union. Authors with literary track records.

Sharon
"The Yiddish Policemen's Union" -- yeah, what Dale said.
B]KittyPryde[/B]
Italo Calvino's 'The Cloven Viscount' is the story of 1/2 of a knight having adventures (like the left half of a knight), but it lives in fiction section

KittyPryde
a lot of SF is in the horror or thriller section, as well

Sharon
The author of "The Yiddish Policemen's Union" is now a member of the Science Fiction Writers of America, by the way.

Dale
Yes, and Chabon won both the Hugo and Nebula for that novel last year.

Sharon
What about "The Historian"? First-time author, no track record, vampire novel.

KittyPryde
so what genre is 'yiddish policemen'? mystery, SF, or mainstream?

littlebear91
By Elizabeth Kostova?

Sharon
littlebear91: Yes.

Dale
Yiddish Policeman's Union seems like an alternate history, with some mystery (though I wouldn't call it a mystery novel).

littlebear91
hm. it seems that it's leaning on the genre of History more than Science Fantasy Fiction

Dale
Never Let Me Go (Ishiguru) was interesting to me. It wasn't great SF-wise, but it was a marvelous, chilling novel.

KittyPryde
so (in your opinion) why aren't these books in the SFF section?

Sharon
Kitty, because they're put out by mainstream publishers and marketed to mainstream readers.

Dale
For one thing, the authors have established as literary or mainstream writers. Their SF books are shelved with their other books.

KittyPryde
OK, I'm going to throw out some quick definitions so we are all sort of on the same page, and then more discussion topics.

KittyPryde
Interstitial: It is art made in the interstices between genres and categories. It is art that flourishes in the borderlands between different disciplines, mediums, and cultures.

KittyPryde
Slipstream: "…a kind of writing which simply makes you feel very strange; the way that living in the twentieth century makes you feel, if you are a person of a certain sensibility." (Bruce Sterling) The fiction of strangeness.

KittyPryde
New Weird: a type of urban, secondary-world fiction that subverts the romanticized ideas about place found in traditional fantasy, largely by choosing realistic, complex real-world models as the jumping off point for creation of settings that may combine elements of both science fiction and fantasy.

KittyPryde
the short version of all this is that SFF has spawned a literary movement of stuff that is NOT quite SFF

KittyPryde
bringing me to the next question:

KittyPryde
How do the traditions of the fantasy genre (or SF genre) empower us as writers? In other words, why is good that we have this playground to play in?

Hollow
Well, you pretty much said it. It's a playground.

Sharon
Part of it is metaphor.

Hollow
It's fun to make stuff up completely.

Hollow
Rather than being bogged down with making stuff realistic.

Dale
For me, magic allows me to jump directly to the human topic that I want to explore.

Sharon
You can do a lot of powerful stuff with, say, an ice-bound world with serial hermaphrodites (Left Hand of Darkness).

littlebear91
It's a place to evaporate all our sweats from the daily routine and to create imaginary kingdom that resides in our inner deep conscious

KittyPryde
i think it's cool to play with the mythological beings from the past and present, like ancient Chinese demons or modern smexy vampires

KittyPryde
i like that we can create new things in the tradition of older work that we love: like a great epic quest...or falling through the rabbit hole

Mod35tBabe
I like writing SFF because then my nightly dreams can become inspiration

KittyPryde
nice

KittyPryde
on the other hand:

KittyPryde
How do the traditions of the fantasy genre (or SF genre) restrain us as writers?

Hollow
I'm not one for traditions.

Sharon
It's very easy to get caught up in "rules."

Sharon
It has to be a quest story, it has to follow the Hero's Journey, there has to be a farmboy and a mentor, the magic has to have a system, etc.

Sharon
Magic and technology don't mix.

Sharon
Etc.

ELM
I didn't realize those were rules.

ELM
I'd say the genre restricts only because we have a preconceived idea of what readers want.

ELM
That problem lies more with us than them.

Sharon
ELM: Yes, which is why I put "rules" in quotes.

littlebear91
magic and technology might be able to co-exist if the author is really good at plotting his work well

ELM
Do you think the expectations we put on ourselves affect editors too.

KittyPryde
i think, in the sense like you were saying, when trying to sell something, the editor has to think that people will want to read it

ELM
I like the idea of magic and technology intermixing.

ELM
mingling

littlebear91
Well, the world is a continuous cycle of production, so therefore if the raw material changes, then the end product would inevitably be changed also

Sharon
I've specifically heard an editor say "there's always room for something offbeat and off-the-wall" (paraphrase, not direct quote)

ELM
Littlebear91 - please expand that.

ELM
Sharon, in which case it actually helps the off the beaten path story.

KittyPryde
and the mere existence of published stuff that is 'weird' proves there is some market for it

Sharon
(I should point out, I'm a great fan of intermixing magic and technology, myself.)

ELM
On the SFF board there is a discussion about fantasy weapons that is basically the concept of blended magic and technology.

KittyPryde
(recently in the aw kidlit forum, there was discussion of the sellability of a middlegrade novel in rhyming verse. everyone was skeptical, but just such a book JUST came out from a major publisher)

Sharon
I remember when China Mieville's Perdido Street Station came out--roughly equal parts SF, fantasy, and horror.

Sharon
Everybody was so excited about it.

littlebear91
When we restrict rules into our raw material, the manuscript, it will affect the editor when he/she is reading it and thus will limit the opportunity for the editor to be creative and come up with productive suggestions to the writer.

Sharon
People (publishers, writers, readers) thought "oh, that weird stuff won't sell" -- and then it did.

ELM
Do you write for a specific market? Or do you write a story and find its market?

KittyPryde
so, when we learn all the rules, you reckon it's ok for us to break them (skillfully)?

ELM
I don't know the rules.

littlebear91
There's a saying that rules are meant to be broken

ELM
I only want to tell a good story and have a few readers agree with me.

ELM
OK, lots of readers would be nice.

ELM
KittyPryde - What would you consider off the beaten path for SFF?

Sharon
I think most important is, breaking rules can't be an excuse for laziness.

ELM
The sort of thing we are talking about now...

ELM
What would you consider rule breaking that is just laziness?

Sharon
How about Twilight's sparkly vampires?

ELM
Why do you think that's lazy?

Sharon
Meyer wants to keep them brooding and out of the sunlight, but she doesn't want to deal with sunlight doing them actual harm.

ELM
I took it as teenage girl dreamy. She tried to make a monster a cute squeeze.

ELM
Ah... I see what you mean.

Sharon
(Note: Take with a grain of sparkly salt, I haven't actually read the books)

ELM
Although, I really did take it as just some teenagers fantasy man.

Sharon
Making a monster a cute squeeze is what I'd describe as rule-breaking to be lazy.

littlebear91
Hm. I don't know if it is a good comparison, but I think by implanting rules, it's like having a communist regime, and look where that has gotten us

ELM
I've read them.

Horserider
I've read them all. At least twice

Hollow
Its Meyer's wet dream.

Hollow
She practically said so herself.

ELM
It's my wet dream. I can't imagine how much fun it would be to have thousands of people defaming me while thousands of others try to defend me.

ELM
Although, I'd like to be more writerly.

ELM
But I'd settle for successful.

Hollow
I mean the story of Twilight. Edward being her perfect man.

KittyPryde
i think smeyer's thing was that she didn't KNOW the genre, so she didn't think about whether or not to break rules

Hollow
And she's married afaik. Wonder how her hubbie took that.

littlebear91
I think she should add some more competition

KittyPryde
bruce sterling (big time cyberpunk writer guy), at the time he wrote his major stuff, BARELY knew anything about computers at all, and didn't use them. so in his ignorance he pioneered a subgenre.

ELM
What about all the stuff that's basically contemporary with just one added bit, magic, or dimensions?

Sharon
ELM, can you give an example, just to make sure we're all on the same page?

KittyPryde
ELM, yep, i think a lot of that ends up in the contemporary or literary section of the bookstore

ELM
I have a friend whose WIP is basically a YA romance, but since it's interdimensional it's also SF.

ELM
Or how about The Gargoyle?
KittyPryde[/B][/U]
SF romance is a subgenre of SF afaik. and fantasy romance is a subgenre of romance. i dunno who chooses these things.

Zafwo
i would very much like to read a SF book about how there is no such thing as magic.

ELM
Guy in a hospital, nut case that comes to watch after him is a lover from the 1300s

Zafwo
or 'the fantastic' in general

ELM
The Gargoyle is really good.

Zafwo
because colloquially, by the time we experience the fantastic, it is banal

ELM
kind of creepy in the debraiding parts, but excellent.

ELM
very well told.

KittyPryde
ahhh cool. the author got a HUGE advance but then the book sort of flopped, i heard

ELM
I'm sure they were excited about the book, but I don't think it was well marketed.

ELM
I did enjoy it though.

KittyPryde
the huge advance phenomenon is kinda scary to me...do you think the new audrey niffeneger book will earn out 4 million bucks?

ELM
My copy is on loan at the moment.

Sharon
I think there's a market for that sort of thing under both the "mainstream/literary" and the SF/F umbrella.

ELM
Unfortunately, I worry that huge advances may limit the number of books purchased by publishers.

Sharon
But marketing to fragments of two markets is harder than marketing to a larger slice of just one.

ELM
Especially if they don't hit homeruns.

KittyPryde
are books like that SF written to appeal to lots of people, or are they literary novels that happen to have swiped some speculative elements?

Sharon
I think I'd be pretty intimidated by a large advance. (Oh, what a problem to have!)

ELM
Yeah, I'd love to be scared by $4M.

KittyPryde
lol, it's hard to sell your next book i'd think tho

ELM
I don't know Kitty.

ELM
There are books that are definitely SF, keyed to SF fans.

KittyPryde
i think they tend to be written in the contemporary novel language, and not written in the SF language

ELM
But there are others that are much more mainstream.

Sharon
That's when you use a pseudonym and your agent doesn't tell editors who you really are.

ELM
For instance, all the Michael Crichton books are SF, but sold mainstream.

Mod35tBabe
Michael Crichton's one of the few I read

Sharon
You've got people pushing the boundaries on both sides, too.

ELM
That's another author I'd like to imitate as far as royalties go.

ELM
Who, Sharon?

KittyPryde
lol true, but i reckon no one ever worried about crichton earning out. he was a rock star!

Sharon
You've got folks like Michael Chabon coming "in" from mainstream, and folks like Jeff VanderMeer and Cat Valente pushing "out" from the genre.

ELM
Yes he is. Good idea man.

Sharon
I think Crichton was kind of inventing his own subgenre, wasn't he?

KittyPryde
i think of him as writing thrillers with sf elements

ELM
Not really, he's basically just brought SF back from 1000 years in the future to 50 years in the future.

ELM
still speculative.

KittyPryde
elm, he wasn't the only one to do near-future sf, was he? just the big time best-sellingest

ELM
Aren't other SF books just romance/horror/comedy in a speculative framework?

ELM
The one I'm thinking of at the moment.

ELM
right.

KittyPryde
ELM, I do agree with that

KittyPryde
well, folks, it's that time again...

KittyPryde
Thanks to you all for participating in tonight's Live Chat. The 'official' portion of the chat is now concluded. However, you may continue this discussion or any other you like. Look in the SF/F Forum Chat Discussion thread in a few days for a transcript of tonight's chat.

ELM
Thanks Kitty.

KittyPryde
my pleasure! thanks everybody for coming out and having such smart things to say!

Sharon
And if any of you are interested in the topic and haven't already checked out the Interstices forum, please feel free to stop by.

Kitty Pryde · May 10, 2009

SF/F Chat Transcript, April 7, 2009: Special Guest Celina Summers (mscelina)!

BahamutBrat
Welcome everyone to tonight's chat with Celina Summers!

BahamutBrat
Thanks for coming to tonight's chat.

BahamutBrat
We're happy to have you.

mscelina
Thanks for having me.

BahamutBratl

So, I see you are quite the prolific writer.

mscelina
I'd like to think so.

BahamutBrat
Can you tell us more about what you have published?

mscelina
I've had three books out so far this year and three more contracted.

mscelina
I primarily write speculative fiction, although you can never tell what I'll come up with.

mscelina
My epic fantasy series, The Asphodel Cycle, has had the first three books released and the final book will come out in June.

mscelina
I had a short story collection published in March.

BahamutBrat
I have a copy of your first Asphodel book. Can you tell us briefly about that?

mscelina
and have another fantasy series with an independent publisher which will begin to come out in 2011.

mscelina
The Asphodel series was actually written in first draft form in 1984.

mscelina
When I came back to it in 2000, I was able to actually wrestle it into something that surprised me.

BahamutBrat
Wow. I was rather young then

mscelina
In a nutshell, I asked myself what would happen if fantasy archetypal characters were dropped into the middle of the Trojan War.

mscelina
And it's no coincidence that my blog is called Elf Killing and Other Hobbies.

mscelina

mscelina
And I was rather young then too.

BahamutBrat
Awesome

BahamutBrat
Have you won any awards for your work?

mscelina
Well, the first three books have garnered a bit of notice.

mscelina
The Reckoning of Asphodel, the first book, was a #1 bestseller in Fantasy at Fictionwise.

mscelina
a top ten finished for P&E Best SFF Novel

mscelina
and nominated for four other web awards

mscelina
The Gift of Redemption followed in Reckoning's footsteps both at P&E and Fictionwise.

mscelina
As did the third book, Temptation of Asphodel--which also was a finalist in the 2008 Golden Rose awards.

mscelina
So I'm reasonably proud of that.

BahamutBrat
That's an impressive list for your series. Congrats!

mscelina
Hopefully the final book, Apostle of Asphodel, will do just as well.

mscelina
Thanks! It still amazes me.

BahamutBrat
I'm sure your next book will follow suit.

mscelina
We can hope.

BahamutBrat
You do a lot of work with worldbuilding and enjoy the hero's journey.

mscelina
The best awards I've gotten so far, though, are people sending me emails begging me not to kill off their favorite characters.

mscelina
Worldbuilding is my passion and hobby, yes.

BahamutBrat
We'll be talking a bit more about both later during the Q&A portion, but can you give us a short intro now?

mscelina
and Joseph Campbell's identification of the monomyth has directed a lot of what I do.

BahamutBrat
Oh, and emails like that are wonderful. Fanmail is something I hope to enjoy one day

mscelina
I also edit a lot of spec fic for the small publishing houses I work for.

mscelina
And one thing I notice in our slush piles is the mediocrity of a lot of the worlds built.

mscelina
To be very honest, my world building file for Asphodel is almost as big as one of the books.

mscelina
World building is a logical art form and one you have to work on.

mscelina
It doesn't just happen.

mscelina
For me, I usually start with a map.

BahamutBrat
I agree on both points.

mscelina
That allows me to dictate climate and topography, which will then affect socio-political separations.

mscelina
For example--if a country is in a warmer climate, the people are darker-skinned.

mscelina
Or if a country depends upon the ocean for trade and transportation, they may be more open-minded than their landlocked neighbors.

mscelina
Everything you do when world building has to be a deliberate choice and you have to have a reason for it.

mscelina
Otherwise, you will not be able to convince your reader to willingly suspend their disbelief.

BahamutBrat
Alright, thank you for that, Celina. I'm now going to open the room to questions from the floor

mscelina
okie dokie

BahamutBrat
Maybe we need a woo hoo! for Celina making it tonight

Shurikane
w00tness.

mscelina
heh. smarty pants!

mscelina
the weather is MUCH better

BahamutBrat
Glad to hear it!

BahamutBrat
So, I have another question

mscelina
okay

BahamutBrat
What was the scariest part of getting published?

mscelina
hmmm...

mscelina
letting go.

BahamutBrat
oh, tell me more

BahamutBrat
cuz that's the problem I have with ALL my stuff

BahamutBrat
WIPs, shorts, all of it

mscelina
the first time I let my manuscript leave my hands and go into the hands of another person, someone I'd only met in email, I nearly broke out in hives.

mscelina
the whole concept of being edited was pretty scary to me.

mscelina
I got over that about four pages into my first edit, when my husband caught me yelling at the computer screen.

mscelina
it's hard to tell the difference between done and DONE.

BahamutBrat
oh dear. Was this a beta or editor?

mscelina
an editor.

BahamutBrat
So no pressure, right?

mscelina
I've had the same betas for years so I was comfortable with what they had to say...but an editor?

KittyPryde
can you tell us a little bit about ebook publishing? i don't know very much about it at all

mscelina
editors are MEAN.

mscelina
or so I thought. then I became one.

ELM
I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but could you back up a touch and tell us a little of your journey?

BahamutBrat
Heh, well, I'm doing one thing right- I found some 'mean' betas and went back to them for more abuse.

Shurikane
Has the editor/publisher requested drastic changes, or do those tweaks tend to be relatively minor in your experience?

mscelina
ebook publishing, as a whole, is gaining more respect.

mscelina
Dierdre Knight did a chat not so long ago where she discussed this.

BahamutBrat
And how old were you when you got published? (sorry to flood you with questions)

mscelina
However, epublishers that are on the top tier are getting a lot pickier about what they select.

mscelina
ELM--could you be more specific with your question? Thanks

mscelina
Shurikane, so far my editors haven't suggested any major changes to my manuscripts

ELM
The journey part? How'd you go from regular person to published author?

mscelina
Mostly they try to get me over my comma and adverb obsession.

ELM
The question of editing - how much editing do you see once it's contracted work?

mscelina
Bahamut, I was eighteen the first time I was published.

mscelina
ah, okay ELM.

mscelina
I was never a normal person for one. I started working in professional theatre at the age of thirteen. I've always been a writer. It's only been in the last ten years that I've taken on writing full time as a career

mscelina
ELM--my manuscripts have gotten a lot cleaner since I started editing professionally.

ELM
Which is to say, your editing post-contract is much lighter.

mscelina
However, as an editor I don't see much difference in the amount of edits I do between new writers and those precontracted works.

mscelina
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

mscelina
I'm saying that MY editing before I send it to my editor is better.

ELM
Ah.

KittyPryde
so whats sorts of things do you as editor see very commonly, that need cleaning up/fixing?

mscelina
oh, wow.

mscelina
First off--sentence fragments do NOT adequately replace full, real sentences.

mscelina
I'm seeing a LOT Of people who think fragments and sentences are interchangeable.

BahamutBrat
ut oh

ELM
Where do you see fragments for most of what you're editing?

ELM
Is this a dialogue thing?

mscelina
No, narrative.

mscelina
Fragments in dialogue are a bit more understandable. We don't always speak in perfect English.

mscelina
However, while fragments can be used for emphasis occasionally, they shouldn't take the place of subject/predicate/object.

mscelina
The second thing I'm seeing a lot of would be incomplete or unrealistic world building.

BahamutBrat
I think you just nailed two of my flaws (I don't always worldbuild for shorts).

ELM
Example…

mscelina
For example, when you build a fantasy world, you have to be able to answer any question someone asks before they ask it.

ELM
As an author or the work itself?

mscelina
as an author.

mscelina
And the major question you HAVE To be able to answer is How this world affects the protagonist--and how the protagonist reacts to it.

ELM
How do you know a writer can't do that?

mscelina
Look, the material you use to build your world may never see the light of day.

ELM
How does it show up in the material?

mscelina
It shows up in the material through vagueness.

mscelina
Or lack of description.

KittyPryde
Like you can tell they don't know stuff about their world?

mscelina
Exactly.

mscelina
Or someone who makes a decision arbitrarily and then can't back it up.

ELM
I'm curious about this part because it's a concern of mine. I'm a minimalist.

ELM
But, I know everything about my worlds.

mscelina
I had a writer once who had purple grass. No reason, just purple grass.

mscelina
So when I asked why the grass was purple, she replied, "I like purple."

KittyPryde
So the trick is getting across that you know lots of details about your world, without putting all of those in?

mscelina
When I pointed out that it would be biologically difficult to have purple grass when the leaves on the trees are green, she had a problem with it. She hadn't thought her way through.

mscelina
Right, Kitty.

ELM
How could she have told you why the grass was purple without dumping? And without making you ask the question?

Shurikane
Must be challenging the more the world is removed from reality as we know it.

mscelina
It is challenging.

KittyPryde
Do you have a formalized system for making sure you've covered all the aspects of life in your worldbuilding? Like a, uh, worksheet or list or similar?

mscelina
See, as spec fic writers it's our job to make our readers believe what we show them. So we must have good reasons for anything beyond the pale that we introduce.

BahamutBrat
That could be fun. Climate. Economy. Funny animals. Monsters/demons.

mscelina
Yes, I do actually.

ELM
Tell us about it

ELM
Please.

mscelina
There are six areas of worldbuilding that I focus on.

mscelina
The physical side--maps, topography and climate

mscelina
Then history, which includes governments and political aspects.

mscelina
When I do history, I'll either make a timeline or, as is most usual, I'll write short stories detailing specific events.

mscelina
Then the mythologies of the various races/nations.

mscelina
That's my favorite part, especially since I draw heavily upon or steal wholesale the mythologies of several ancient cultures

mscelina
Then time--making calendars and so forth. That also can lead you into astronomy, specifically if you're dealing with lunar calendars or multiple moons.

mscelina
Then current events, which I handle in much the same way I do the history.

mscelina
And finally the protagonist and how he/she relates to the world.

mscelina
And let me throw in a caveat here about magic...

mscelina
Magic is HARD to write.

mscelina
The truly great fantasy writer can do it well.

mscelina
Although it would be great for your protag to wave a hand and have the world adjust, it makes for boring fantasy.

KittyPryde
Very cool. How do you work in the daily life stuff like homes, infrastructure, technological level?

mscelina
When I'm dealing with the current situation on my world, I tackle all of that.

ELM
Have you ever screwed up your own world building and had to go back?

mscelina
Constantly, but usually only on little things. The major aspects of my worlds I have set in stone before I write a word.

mscelina
In Asphodel, for example, my fantasy races are at the same point in time roughly as the Romans were after the Trojan War so their technological level is about the same.

KittyPryde
Ah. So what do you consider when you are working on the magic system in your world?

mscelina
The first thing I do when creating a magic system is to establish the limits.

mscelina
Without limits, magic can ruin the credibility of your entire story.

mscelina
Even if your main character is a god.

KittyPryde
Like the maximum one person/magical thingy can do?

ELM
Or perhaps how they build the power to do it?

mscelina
There have to be limits established from the beginning: who can work it, how they work it, when they work it, what they need to work it, and what the consequences of working it might be.

mscelina
Well, it depends on what's going to work the best.

mscelina
In Asphodel, magic is rare among humans and common among the Elves.

mscelina
But, the Elves' magic is weaker.

mscelina
And, unfortunately for everyone, the magic is sentient and has ideas of its own.

mscelina
So a magic user can only wield as much power as the magic allows him to.

ELM
Meaning a human magician is more powerful than an elf, but more elves are magicians?

mscelina
Basically.

ELM
And where does the magic come from?

mscelina
*grin* can't tell you that.

mscelina
it's the difference between a basic elemental magic that the Elves possess by nature and a learned, external magic that humans practice.

ELM
Of course, I have your book - thank you - so I'll read it.

mscelina
It all boils down to conflict in the end.

ELM
So how do you start building your story?

mscelina
And for magic to be a credible part of your world, there must be conflict involved in using it.

mscelina
I usually start building my story with a one-sentence premise.

ELM
Do you start with the world and put a story in it or start with a story and build a world for it?

mscelina
But you must realize--I have about fifty completed worlds sitting in three-ring binders on my shelves in the study. I can literally pick the world that will best suit the storyline I've developed.

ELM
Can you give an example of a one sentence premise?

mscelina
What would happen if Elves fought in the Trojan War?

mscelina
or

mscelina
A hobbit has to return a ring to the place it was forged.

mscelina
One sentence--and that usually jump starts my story ideas.

mscelina
But it's different for everyone.

ELM
Do you outline or build as you go?

mscelina
Pantser all the way.

KittyPryde
Can you tell us how the hero cycle influences what you write?

mscelina
Well, I guess you won't accept I was raised on it as an answer?

mscelina
*grin*

mscelina
The monomyth of the hero's journey is a successful and ancient storytelling tool.

BahamutBrat
Raised on it in books or IRL?

mscelina
Actually as a student and reader.

KittyPryde
So, I mean do you take every step of it and translate it to part of your story, or just let the overall structure guide you, or what?

mscelina
I studied classics from about thirteen on.

mscelina
The monomyth is an outstanding story structure for heroic literature, and while it would be very easy to signpost the monomyth absolutely throughout your story it's also been done a lot.

mscelina
So you have to play with it, to tweak it to suit your needs.

mscelina
For example, I write about female protagonists

KittyPryde
There's a female version of the cycle too, right?

mscelina
In the original monomyth as identified by Campbell, there's not a lot of room for a female heroine.

mscelina
...right. that's exactly where I was going.

mscelina
Now Asphodel follows the hero's journey faithfully…

ELM
Since I may be slow, what's the classic monomyth identified by Campbell?

mscelina
…and I had to find a way to tweak the homocentric stations of the monomyth to work with my decidedly feminine heroine.

mscelina
It's called the hero's journey.

mscelina
Campbell wrote about it in his book The Hero With a Thousand Faces.

KittyPryde
(this is a really easy to understand example of the hero cycle: http://www.moongadget.com/origins/myth.html )

mscelina
it identifies the steps a character takes from normal Joe Duh to heroic figure.

mscelina
It can be applied to heroic literature from the Odyssey to Star Wars.

mscelina
With specific actions and plateaus a hero has to reach in order to progress further along the journey.

KittyPryde
A lot of steps in the cycle have to do with the specific traditional roles of men or of women, right? that has tripped me up in the past.

mscelina
Right, it does.

BahamutBrat
How do you adapt that to female leads?

mscelina
but I discovered that what was tripping me up was MY interpretation of traditional gender roles.

BahamutBrat
Or do you throw the roles out the window?

mscelina
I tend to throw the roles out the window.

mscelina
I don't think the gender assignations are as important as the actions.

mscelina
For example, the mentor role in Asphodel is occupied by a female ch.aracter.

mscelina
But the three stages of the journey are what's really important

BahamutBrat
Oh, good. Why didn't I think of that? LOL

mscelina
You have to have the departure in order for the hero's character to grow.

mscelina
You have to have the initiation or trials in order for the hero to prove herself worthy.

ELM
I'm sitting here trying to wonder what steps would be necessarily male. Of course, as a man, I tend to miss some of that stuff.

BahamutBrat
Killing things with swords.

BahamutBrat
Saving the opposite gender.

ELM
Girls can do that too.

mscelina
Well, usually there's a princess who is a 'reward' for the hero.

KittyPryde
some of the stuff the hero is supposed to do relates specifically to women (ie them being mothers, or them being temptresses).

ELM
Girls can do that too.

BahamutBrat
Oh, they can

mscelina
Traditional gender roles in fantasy don't lend themselves to women rescuing the men and getting them as a reward, but it can be finagled.

ELM
I write lots of things with decidely female bents and I just assume it's OK.

mscelina
Well, sure it's ok.

ELM
I don't really treat them differently. Is that wrong?

mscelina
The hero's journey is a guide, not a set of rules.

ELM
Of course.

BahamutBrat
And a map of what's been traditionally done,

BahamutBrat
not a map of the unusual.

ELM
Fair enough.

mscelina
Right--but, it's also a familiar and comfortable guide for the reader.

ELM
Are you hurt by departing from the traditional path?

ELM
Or interpretation of the path?

mscelina
When you're transporting a reader into an alien world, that familiarity comforts them.

mscelina
No, I don't think so.

mscelina
Editors are looking for the new and different.

Shurikane
Good to know.

mscelina
As long as what you're doing isn't arbitrary, you can depart as much as you like.

mscelina
I mean, look at what Jeff Vandermeer is doing.

mscelina
It's hard to depart more than that.

ELM
Well, from my end, I don't think about the path at all. I think about my characters.

mscelina
But even in the most cutting edge urban fantasy, you can still find traces of the hero's journey.

mscelina
Ah, but your characters follow a path.

ELM
More often than not I spend my time trying to get them in trouble.

mscelina
That path is called the storyline.

ELM
right

BahamutBrat
Alright folks…

mscelina
and that storyline, like as not, has some derivation from the traditional methods of storytelling passed down through oral and written tradition

mscelina
and that tradition is the monomyth that Campbell identified.

ELM
true

BahamutBrat
Thus concludes the official portion of tonight's chat.

BahamutBrat
Let's please thank Celina for coming.

ELM
Celina, thank you for your time and comments.

mscelina
Thanks for having me!

BahamutBrat
Thanks Celina! It was worth the wait

KittyPryde
Thanks for coming to share all this good stuff with us tonight!

mscelina
it was a lot of fun--

mscelina
*eyes piles of paper on desk*

mscelina
It gave me a break from editing hades.

BahamutBrat
haha

BahamutBrat
always a welcome break, I'm sure

mscelina
any break from editing is a good break.

mscelina
and with that, I must get back to it.

mscelina
good night everyone.

Pthom · May 18, 2009

Sentience and Intelligence: biological and artificial

Peter
Welcome to tonight’s Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Chat.

Peter
For tonight’s discussion, the following topics have been suggested.

KittyPryde
Often an alien intelligence (in fiction) can be significantly different from human intelligence. What are some interesting differences and how can we exploit them to tell an interesting story?

What are some considerations for humans needing to make first contact with intelligent aliens?

How can we test/determine if an alien species is intelligent?

What should our criteria be for granting citizen rights to an artificially intelligent entity or an intelligent alien?

What will it take for our computer intelligences to make the leap to becoming fully AIs?

and lastly, What are the advantages and disadvantages (for society) of artificial intelligences?

so, our first question is, Often an alien intelligence (in fiction) can be significantly different from human intelligence. What are some interesting differences and how can we exploit them to tell an interesting story?

Horserider
Usually aliens are more advanced.

Peter
Why is that?

Horserider
technology wise

BahamutBrat
Often they come off cold, which is a big turn off for me.

Peter
Why isn't it us who is more advanced?

Horserider
Because they have to get to Earth because for some reason they never come to us.

littlebear91
They follow a certain fixed logic that human on the other hand are not fixed or hardwired to.

BahamutBrat
Unless, ofc, they are deep in other ways.

TheGunshark
Peter is right, the Stargate series are a huge example of Earth being more advanced.

KittyPryde
Yeah, in the far future we can come to the dumber, slower alien species

benbradley
It depends on who meets who. If "we" go meet THEM (such as on their planet/turn), we're usually more advanced.

Peter
So, it's like the HG Wells metaphor, Martians must be a more intelligent race because they came to Earth and we haven't gone to Mars (yet).

KittyPryde
In the present and near future, they gotta come to us and wow us with their super brains.

TheGunshark
Well, it doesn't actually follow that set of a pattern.

KittyPryde
Not always, just brainstorming differences between how our brains work.

littlebear91
A set of regulation then, perhaps a principle of some kind

Peter
But we're talking SF stories, right? Some of which might be set far into the future. Yet even when we see such stories, it's often that the different races we meet are way more advanced than us. Klingons, Vulcans, Borg.

KittyPryde
There can be a major logical or ethical issue for aliens which clashes with the way all humans think.

TheGunshark
Ah, true. I'd say differences would depend upon the situation in their society as well. However, it seems to be a common cliché that every alien species has a one world government.

Peter
Pretty rare that we see a story where we are significantly more advanced than the species/races we come across.

littlebear91
Humans have a left brain and a right brain, thus we are different from alien intelligence because we express our opinion differently.

KittyPryde
Alien intelligence might move much faster or much slower than human...

benbradley
Also, there's technologically advanced, and there's "intelligence" - one can be intelligent without being technologically advanced.

TheGunshark
The use of technology is often a factor toward intelligence, partly in order to make their lives easier.

KittyPryde
If you're intelligent, don't you need to eventually become technologically advanced?

KittyPryde
Unless you have another means of making your life extremely comfortable and easy...

littlebear91
The keyword, one, as I have noted means a single individual which is not included within the general classification of society.

BahamutBrat
Not without thumbs, Kitty

TheGunshark
Same sort of thing applies.

BahamutBrat
or other ways of manipulating objects

benbradley
Of course the converse is not true, if a race of beings isn't very intelligent, they're surely not very technologically advanced.

littlebear91
@KittyPryde: That's not true, there are intelligent human beings in the days where their intelligence will lead to their death

Peter
In the recent book study in the forum, Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky, the aliens were NOT as advanced as humans. I think that was one of the facets of the story that made it so compelling.

KittyPryde
They were ethically more advanced, and technologically less so.

Peter
Well, maybe so

hard to place a level of advancement on ethics

KittyPryde
Yeah, hive mind or multiple intelligence is another good one lots of authors have used.

TheGunshark
For alien intelligence?

KittyPryde
Well if humans practice slavery and genocide, and the aliens sit around cuddling their children, the aliens are more advanced ethically.

KittyPryde
Yep...like the buggers in 'Enders Game' fer instance

TheGunshark
Oh.

benbradley
Does ethics mean doing whatever will keep your species going? I agree with Peter, how do you measure ethics?

Peter
Herbert wrote a story about a hive race (buried in a warren somewhere in the Midwest, as I recall). They appeared more advanced only because humans had no tools/experience to deal with such a thing.

TheGunshark
I was thinking that hive minds would be commonly associated with parasitic species, like the Zerg or the Flood.

KittyPryde
Measure ethics by measuring the total amount of good done to individuals and the total amount of bad done to individuals

Peter
But are hive minds more intelligent? I don't think that's necessarily so

KittyPryde
not necessarily

littlebear91
The total amount of good done is hard to measure if there are two sides to the story

KittyPryde
Fewer individuals to create unique thoughts. It's easy to measure.

littlebear91
Hive minds wouldn't create more intelligent in my view as they would clashes with each other or assimilate the thoughts into one.

KittyPryde
It was good for me to rob your house, it was bad for you though. The total badness done to you exceeds the total goodness gained by me.

KittyPryde
ok, switching it up to the next Q, What are some considerations for humans needing to make first contact with intelligent aliens?

TheGunshark
Language barriers, big time.

benbradley
"Talk softly and carry a big nuke."

Peter
So we use something we consider to be universal: mathematics.

littlebear91
The fear of afraid, shooting the alien down at first sight.

TheGunshark
But authors often make the aliens speak English for no reason anyway.

KittyPryde
I read a recent article that said if we met aliens, we basically had no frikkin chance of understanding their communication, like they wouldn't have a funny language they speak.

littlebear91
Because it's the most popular language in the world due to United State being a superpower.

benbradley
Aliens speak English so the story doesn't bog down into alien language...

KittyPryde
But maybe communicate with skin colorations, like cuttlefish.

KittyPryde
all you need is a BABELFISH!

TheGunshark
Or Translator Microbes (Farscape FTW!)

Peter
Authors make aliens speak English because otherwise, the readers wouldn't have a clue as to what the aliens were saying.

TheGunshark
Ah, yeah. I was thinking of other media, too, though.

KittyPryde
Plus all our customs of politeness could be grave insults to aliens...how do first contacters proceed without causing offense?

benbradley
I think an interesting story could be written just (well partly) on breaking the communication barrier.

KittyPryde
Yeah.

Peter
Think of Battlestar Galactica for example. None of the "humans" there came from Earth (although they're gonna try to find it). Yet they (and the Cylons) all speak English.

KittyPryde
A lot of sf novels I’ve enjoyed go like this. We meet aliens...it's going ok, but something’s fishy...OMG aliens are so alien and do a crazy alien thing! Abort mission!

Peter
Not because that language evolved there, but because we, the paying public, would drop watching it in a heartbeat if they didn't.

benbradley
Oh, yeah, Peter - THAT's how you determine the more "advanced" race, they overtake the others, and make them talk their language.

Horserider
Are they friendly??

TheGunshark
LOL

KittyPryde
Maybe aliens don't even view 'friend' or 'ally' in the same way that we do.

TheGunshark
Are they not trying to suck your brains out through your anus?

ELM
I presume we've already mentioned language and culture.

Horserider
Are they going to kill us?

KittyPryde
Or they don't value the life of the individual.

benbradley
If that's what they're trying to do, they're using the wrong orifice.

TheGunshark
Indeed.

ELM
I'm actually pondering first contact in a short. My number one issue is how to make communication believable at all without resorting to the Babel fish.

Peter
Why, use American Sign Language, of course.

KittyPryde
We were just saying aliens may not even use language as we understand it (sounds audible and differentiable to us)

benbradley
WE haven't used the WORD culture, but yes, that's surely part of what makes aliens different from humans.

Peter
And say "Ugh," and "How" a lot.

TheGunshark
Communication would work if you had an alien ally that was a translator, but that wouldn't really be first contact.

littlebear91
Which is pull out a gun and shoot them down.

KittyPryde
yeah, and say 'Me-human. You-bug-eyed alien!'

ELM
littlebear, that's actually not far off.

ELM
I'd wager first contact will be killing each other.

benbradley
Wouldn't they be insulted at being called a bug-eyed alien?

ELM
Second contact will be deciding if we want to keep killing each other.

TheGunshark
It depends on the situation.

littlebear91
mm hmm. definitely as the way the motto of American culture is to arm and protect yourself from danger

ELM
There's been plenty of first contact to base that opinion on. The American Indians. The South American natives. Neanderthals. We kill then ask questions and it's not just Americans.

TheGunshark
Well, that was when the governing people's were douches, amirite?

Peter
Ever wonder why it is most first contact stories (other than Star Trek) have the aliens immediately antagonistic toward us?

ELM
I don't think we've changed all that much.

benbradley
That's a point, the more technologically advanced culture is likely to be more aggressive and "risk talking" as well.

Peter
Because the alternative isn't very exciting, story wise.

ELM
Well think about it, why go out of your own neighborhood anyway?

TheGunshark
So what you are saying is that they are antagonistic because the plot requires them to be.

ELM
Some pressure is pushing you out. That goes for aliens and humans.

benbradley
"Because it's there!"

Peter
We humans are actively seeking extraterrestrial intelligence. We have no desire to go whomp all over them, should we find any.

ELM
Too much population, need more space. Too little money, need something to trade.

KittyPryde
Alien-human war is conflict, and conflict is good for stories! But conflict could be based in other stuff...

ELM
I'd wager the minute we find alien life some portion of the population will want to nuke them.

TheGunshark
This reminds me of a movie that is coming out that looks bad ass. It's called District 9, I believe. http://en.wikiped ia.org/wiki/District_9

Peter
Now, we might go look at a planet, decide there is no intelligent life there and start mining coal or something. And that is really close to what Europeans did when they explored the Western Hemisphere.

ELM
Really, let's think like an alien.

KittyPryde
District 9 will be, 'Aliens as thinly veiled stand-ins for black Africans during apartheid'.

ELM
Why would they come looking for us? We haven't made it there yet. We have a nice planet and if they are capable of space travel, they out rank us. We're an easy push over. The Europeans came to the western hemisphere and decided there weren't any other Europeans.

benbradley
That's another point, the "aliens" in SF are often thinly veiled political enemies of the time.

ELM
Not no people. They did it in Africa too.

TheGunshark
The only reason I can think of is because the aliens would need help.

ELM
That's what I do when thinking of first contact. Why did I find them? Why did they find me? Personally, I never think that's just a feel good. Cool, but scary.

Peter
The thing about writing a SF story is that you are not just dealing with some oddity of science, but you also need to enthrall your reader. (or you won't sell the thing)

ELM
or get them to read the next chapter.

TheGunshark
You can do that without going into technobabble, though.

KittyPryde
OK, the next Q relates to AI and aliens: What should our criteria be for granting citizen rights to an artificially intelligent entity or an intelligent alien?

ELM
Citizenship was defined long ago as active participation in society.

Peter
Be ve-e-ery careful.

TheGunshark
Ok, this one is a tough one. Why would they want citizen's rights if they were more advanced than us?

KittyPryde
When robots/sentient supercomputers/aliens live among us, how do we decide if they get to own property/vote/sue people?

ELM
Identify with the group, share in the burden of supporting and protecting the group. That used to be proved with terms in the military. So we could go wipe out foreigners (aka aliens).

benbradley
I'd require them to pass a citizenship test - the usual things, founder of our country, bla bla bla.

ELM
Can they operate independently in a responsible manner?Do they have free will?

benbradley
And as WE define responsible.

KittyPryde
What’s the free will test?

TheGunshark
Free will is not objective.

ELM
Not sure... but I think that's important.

benbradley
Maybe it's like the Turing test, when they APPEAR to have free will.

Peter
Who says Turing had intelligence?

KittyPryde
Lol so passing a Turing test would be required? A lot of people with autism (for example) would fail a Turing test, though they are human citizens

benbradley
So was Turing just playing with teletypes all day?

Horserider
Why are we allowing aliens into our country again?

Peter
They're citizens by default, Kitty.

Hollow
What am I missing?

ELM
Can an autistic person not born a citizen gain citizenship?

Sky
Turing was an alien…You dint know?

ELM
In any country.

KittyPryde
Some countries try not to allow disabled people in...but in general I think it is possible.

ELM
I'm not sure it's possible to gain citizenship without all your mental capacities. At least not without a sponsor. A parent or something that does have citizenship.

KittyPryde
Well, you can as a child. I THINK hypothetically you can as a dependent adult if you come with your parents.

TheGunshark
Well, let's step back for a second. Is this in an era where we have colonies or space travel?

ELM
Again, that's the parents getting citizenship.

KittyPryde
But if a computer is born here in the USA, and he wants to sue his landlord for hazardous living conditions, do we let him?

ELM
The child is granted by default. They do not earn it. Therefore, an alien without mental capacity would not qualify.

benbradley
Hmm, the standards for an Earth-born person becoming a space colony citizen would be very high.

TheGunshark
Not necessarily.

benbradley
It's like that ST:NG episode on Data's personhood. You have to legally determine if the computer is a legally recognized person.

TheGunshark
Aside from the adaptation to the local environment, I suppose.

KittyPryde
Right, so what's the legal determination?

TheGunshark
I think we can use better examples than TNG.

benbradley
Uh ..... uh ...

Dermit
There aren't any examples that aren't rampant speculation.

benbradley
Okay, let's hear a better example.

ELM
I think the basic thought is active participation in society and free will.

TheGunshark
I, Robot, perhaps?

ELM
The ability to commit to support the society.

KittyPryde
I read a book where reanimated dead people couldn't be citizens, even though they were nice and stuff...

ELM
No free will, you can't commit.

KittyPryde
…so they all went to the moon and got on a spaceship and started blowing up strategic earth targets.

benbradley
But isn't a hermit as much of a citizen as a city commissioner?

TheGunshark
WTH?

KittyPryde
Interesting ELM. If you have the ability to commit, but nor the ability to support society, does that count?

benbradley
I guess they weren't nice anymore, were they?

ELM
I think a hermit that has no contact with the society and no allegiance to it is not a citizen.

KittyPryde
Well they were rebels against earth because earth rejected them.

ELM
If you do not contribute to society you are not a citizen.

TheGunshark
Wait, wouldn't they classify as zombies anyway?

KittyPryde
That’s not true.

Peter
What are the chances, really, of us letting one of our computers become autonomous?

ELM
Think of citizenship as being a part of a club.

KittyPryde
(they were zombie like, but they acted like regular people, not brain-eaters)

ELM
You pay your dues, you're in the club.

Dermit
It would have to be an accident Peter - think Hyperion

KittyPryde
Someone who can't move any part of their body can be a citizen and vote and sue and etc.

ELM
Maybe you have to wear a funny hat too or come from a certain town.

benbradley
Peter, the problem may be RECOGNIZING when it becomes autonomous

KittyPryde
Even though that person can't contribute to society other than offering kind smiles.

ELM
But can they contribute.

Peter
Well, I'm not letting some accident have the same rights as me!

Peter
Where’s my shotgun?

TheGunshark
Oh, there was a good example of the recognition of machines in the Animatrix.

Dermit
I think it might be a bit arrogant of us to think we have the ability to create something truly autonomous in any case.

ELM
Stephen Hawking wouldn't make much of a foot soldier, but he's a hell of citizen.

TheGunshark
I forget what short it was.

Peter
He’s not artificial.

KittyPryde
This is true.

benbradley
"The Adolescence of P1" is an oldie, but excellent read on a computer program that "wakes up."

KittyPryde
For every Stephen Hawking there are hundreds of completely paralyzed individuals who don't go out and create great things.

ELM
KittyPryde, I'd argue smiling is a contribution.

Peter
Asimov wrote lots of stories about emerging sentience in computers/robots.

KittyPryde
Ok, so we are defining contribution very loosely then.

benbradley
And those completely paralyzed people still have the right to vote.

ELM
At the limit of their ability. But, I wouldn't grant citizenship to a vegetable on that merit.

KittyPryde
But a vegetable is a citizen…and a Mac G4 is not.

ELM
No, someone with citizenship becomes invalid, we don't take it away.

Dermit
But they aren't going to be voting either.

ELM
But, we don't go to other countries - no matter what country we're in - to find invalids for citizenship.

KittyPryde
So if a computer is born in the US and wants to vote in an election, do we let it?

ELM
Now you're defining born loosely.

KittyPryde
My point is just that the bar is set low for humans but won't it have to be set much higher for AIs?

ELM
In the case of a cyborg, android, robot, you name it.

KittyPryde
I am.

ELM
When do you define birth?

KittyPryde
When all the bits are in place and it’s ready to leave the factory.

ELM
I would not define functioning as birth. Would you? In the case of AI, the ability to function does not include free will.

ELM
The seven laws and all that.

KittyPryde
It CAN include free will, if the AI has free will, right?

benbradley
I'd say birth is when it is recognized as an intelligent being, though it may have been such a being before then.

ELM
That's precisely the reason that we don't grant computers free will. They are programs.

KittyPryde
Ok, I’ll jump to the next question, because it's very related: What will it take for our computer intelligences to make the leap to becoming fully AIs?

ELM
Only when the computers create themselves and their own code lives, do they become AI.

benbradley
I strongly suspect free will and emotions always come along with sentience.

TheGunshark
The odds of this one actually happening are very low.

Dermit
I don't think we'll ever do it.

Dermit
I don't think we can.

ELM
Humans are born an empty vessel that is filled with experiences.

ELM
We develop into free thinking peoples.

benbradley
Just N more decades of Moore's Law, where N is between 1 and 10.

ELM
Computers, by their very nature, are hard coded to specific actions. That defines an absence of free will.

KittyPryde
As computers become more advanced, eventually they will be able to simulate human brains, yeah?

ELM
We are born with the instinct to avoid danger, but every kid in California is look for a new way to tempt death.

KittyPryde
And you can throw in a small inaccuracy factor to make them emotional.

ELM
Exaggeration I know.

Dermit
Sure, they'll have the capacity to emulate, they do now in fact. But in my opinion, human's can create true life in only one way - and it ain't exactly rocket science.

ELM
No, KittyPryde, I don't think computers will simulate human brains.

ELM
They are slaves to their code.

benbradley
I don't think it's inaccuracy that makes a sentient being emotional.

KittyPryde
No, it's hormones.

KittyPryde
Hormones that throw things out of whack.

ELM
This is especially true because a computer can be tapped into and reprogrammed.

ELM
A human can only be killed or f'd up.

KittyPryde
Or conditioned!

Peter
We’ll have to get away from thinking of computers as machines that we direct to do things, but instead, to think of them as entities that learn and replicate subsystems on their own.

Peter
And then, LOOK OUT.

Dermit
I for one, welcome our new AI overlords.

benbradley
Would it be unethical to treat an intelligent machine as a slave?

KittyPryde
What if you tell a computer to keep itself safe and make copies of itself? Would it be a person?

ELM
Peter, are you thinking that computers will eventually contain organic code that cannot be accessed by human programmer? KittyPryde, I don't think so. It's still following protocol.

Peter
Well, if we aim to let them become sentient autonomous beings, yes.

Dermit
I think human society has produced too many bad sci fi flicks to allow that.

ELM
Sentience requires self-awareness.

Peter
If we retain control over every aspect of their development.

ELM
It also requires the ability to ignore good instructions.

TheGunshark
Yeah, especially the Terminator fears.

KittyPryde
Hmm, well, how is a computer following learned rules different from humans following learned rules?

Peter
Then they'll never become autonomous.

benbradley
What if over time "ordinary computers" we use become sentient, and we stay "in denial" that anything has happened, still treating them as "just machines?"

ELM
KittyPryde, we learn patterns, but we also learn from inspiration.

KittyPryde
But people are actively trying to make computers sentient!

KittyPryde
Inspiration is just making connections between things we hadn't connected before. Which computers should be WAY better at than us.

ELM
A human can look at a painting of a naked woman and suddenly realize that the fusion can be attained in a bottle cap.

benbradley
Well, yes, Kitty, but I'm just supposing...

ELM
Computers don't do that. I don't think they will be. I think that is a uniquely human trait. Maybe alien too. So, organic trait.

KittyPryde
But I mean, look at what causes inspiration...it's not like magical human sparkliness...

ELM
I think it kind of is. It's like the question of a soul.

KittyPryde
It’s all going down in the synapses though

ELM
Can a computer be a person without a soul?

Dermit
Creativity might be something computers can't replicate.

KittyPryde
Well if you bring souls into it, it's a much more complex and much longer discussion

ELM
I agree.

TheGunshark
I don't know. Most inspiration could be connected to the subconscious instead.

ELM
True.

KittyPryde
The subconscious--- again with the synapses.

benbradley
If you can simulate a human, you'll be "simulating" creativity too.

ELM
It's more than synapses.

KittyPryde
Yeah, and every religion in the world has a different view on that issue.

ELM
We are connected to the world around us in a way that artificial creations will never be.

benbradley
Are you SURE it's more than synapses?

ELM
I think I am.

KittyPryde
Have you seen the baby robot that they are teaching how to do stuff? (note: CB2 http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=1069 )

ELM
But I could be wrong.

ELM
yeah, I think I have.

benbradley
My synapses think they are.

KittyPryde
He’s learning to walk and stuff...

TheGunshark
Uh, Elm, what if I told you that we were actually on the verge of creating organic life?

TheGunshark
Would that change things?

ELM
Organic life troubles me. It’s actually the thing that gets me excited.

Dermit
That seems like a really inefficient way to develop an AI.

ELM
What if we do create humans? Become God and all that. scary, sh!t

benbradley
I'm already familiar with organic life, it's the inorganic I don't know about...

KittyPryde
It’s still years off, but we will create human life artificially.

Peter
no

ELM
And yes, I think organic life could become intelligent, have free will, etc...

Peter
Won’t be human... by definition.

TheGunshark
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/craig_venter_is_on_the_verge_of_creating_synthetic_life.html

Peter
Might be life, but not human.

ELM
I agree, we will create life. And I think it's closer than we are ready to deal with.

TheGunshark
It is, check the link above.

ELM
I agree, won't be human.

Dermit
At which point do the robots take over and start using us for an energy source in pod farms?

ELM
But won't be dead either.

TheGunshark
Using what? Hemp?

Peter
We’ve already done it... in a sense.

ELM
Matrix reference.

Peter
Grown a human ear on the back of a mouse.

ELM
Yes we have, Peter.

Peter
Cloned sheep.

TheGunshark
Well, you could also say selective breeding too.

Peter
Not too long before we clone us.

KittyPryde
The matrix humans-as-batteries thing is nonsense to the max.

Dermit
Completely.

TheGunshark
Yeah.

Dermit
But a good visual

ELM
I assume we've already tried to clone us.

ELM
The genie is out of that bottle.

Peter
Pandora’s box is open

KittyPryde
Yeah, we will have clones, and organ-farm-creatures who grow us replacement livers and whatnot.

TheGunshark
Not to mention that the Wachowskis completely blew it with the sequels.

Dermit
Very pertinent to this conversation, ben.

TheGunshark
Ben, only watch the first one.

ELM
Kitty, you read my story.

KittyPryde
Noooo I didn't.

benbradley
I did see Tron, though. But that was from way back when.

ELM
It was my Christmas gift to Dempsey.

KittyPryde
There were organ farm creatures in 'Wetware' by Rudy Rucker.

ELM
This very topic…Organ Farms…

Peter
Tron had nothing to do with AI though... just a nasty computer experience.

ELM
…and souls for the unborn.

Dermit
I'd also recommend the Hyperion Cantos (by Dan Simmons) to anyone who finds this topic interesting as well.

TheGunshark
That's a topic for another time.

KittyPryde
Hyperion is on my tbr list.

ELM
I'll remember that one.

KittyPryde
ok I got one more quick one: What are the advantages and disadvantages (for society) of having artificial intelligences?

ELM
Obviously, AI provides servants to protect humans from dangerous jobs.

KittyPryde
AIs will be way better air traffic controllers than people are.

benbradley
I can see the Pope and Catholic Church trying to determine if AI's have souls, and should convert to Catholicism.

ELM
Right. AI will be able to support us in a way we can't support ourselves, but they do not become us.

benbradley
I can see people becoming 'attached' emotionally to AI's, perhaps pushing for an expansion of the definition of marriage...

ELM
It won't just be the Catholics.

Dermit
Advantages: A different (and to a large extent, alien) perspective on problems. Logistical problem solving we simply can't compare with... Disadvantages: In many ways, they're smarter than us, and without them we'd be crippled once we come to rely on them...we wouldn't be able to stop them if they turned on us.

ELM
As with all things techy, AI will go to the gutter first, then work its way out.

TheGunshark
What if AI shares the same perversions as we do?

KittyPryde
If we made them in our image, would they at least try to be nice?

benbradley
I agree, it's just that Catholicism is the first example that comes to mind.

Dermit
Do humans?

ELM
Almost guaranteed to. Do humans what?

Dermit
Try to be nice?

ELM
Not often.

Dermit
We make them too nice, and then they take the moral high ground and think we're scum and decide to eradicate us for that reason.

benbradley
Well, that's the argument with the "Singularity" stuff - if machines become as smart as humans, there's nothing to keep them from becoming smarter.

Pthom · Jul 8, 2009

Worldbuilding: Religions

Peter
Welcome to tonight’s Official Science Fiction and Fantasy Chat.
Tonight, we will discuss worldbuilding religions.
Now, for tonight’s discussion. The following topics have been suggested.

KittyPryde
What aspects of religion play a part in the everyday lives of our characters?

How can authors take inspiration from existing or past religions IRL for their worldbuilding?

If the gods in a fictional world are physically present characters, how can the author use them without a deus ex machine?

How does religion affect ethics and decision-making of the characters?

What is the potential of multiple religious groups interacting in the plot?

How can we make points (for or against) aspects of religions in a story without being preachy?

Peter
You want to do those all at once? or one at a time?

KittyPryde
ahh, one at a time!

To start us off, What aspects of religion play a part in the everyday lives of our characters?

TheIT
Our specific characters?

Bahamut
Do they pray daily? Where do they pray?

WhiskeyGirl
I think that just like IRL that should depend on the character

KittyPryde
characters in general, IT

Peter
I have the need to ask: What assumes there IS a religion?

Etola
The first way it shows in my writing is usually different kinds of swearing ^.^;

Bahamut
Do they give gifts to their church/whatever?

KittyPryde
every culture that's ever existed on earth has had religion, right?

TheIT
Religion vs. higher power

cyia
Worship can be different for an acolyte vs. a commoner

Bahamut
Yes, religions and beliefs go wayyy back

Etola
Worship can also be different between upper and lower classes

WhiskeyGirl
but less than 50% of people actually practice the religion they claim

Peter
the term "religion" is different from the term "belief."

KittyPryde
there can be lots of taboos and dos and don'ts mandated by religion

cyia
certain classes/groups aren't allowed into their place of worship for whatever reason

Andrhia
Requirements for food and dress, daily rituals that arent necessarily prayer

KittyPryde
peter, i think if you believe in a deity or spirits that need to be appeased/treated in a special way, you have a religion

Etola
WG--even if people don't practice a religion, aspects of a dominant religion will infuse a great deal of culture. Religious buildings, language, art, etc.

cyia
it depends on if you're worshiping one deity, a pantheon, or a natural object/animal

TheIT
Implicit support system if one belongs to a religion (hopefully)

Peter
I really think it's a good idea to agree on what we mean by "religion." Because I am getting the impression that it isn't a universal concept, especially not in here tonight.

TheIT
Depends on who/what is being worshipped

cyia
opposing religions can mean no quarter in debate

Fokker
I think religion is best described as structured belief

KittyPryde
i shall define it as the reverence or worship of supernatural beings (or aliens so much more powerful than you that they may as well be ssupernatural)

cyia
it's structured belief without emperical evidence

beckykw
wouldn't that be spirituality rather than religion?

Peter
I agree, Becky

beckykw
religion requires structure

Andrhia
Kitty: By this definition, Buddhism isn't a religion.

TheIT
There's also belief vs. faith. Is belief necessary if there's proof the gods exist?

beckykw
its a belief

KittyPryde
there are like a ZILLION DUDES in the buddhist pantheon though

Fokker
I think we're missing a large part of 'religion'

Peter
religion is an organized way for a select group to express their spirituality in a common way.

Andrhia
There is no *worship*

KittyPryde
and the buddhas, by achieving buddhahood, are supernatural

beckykw
religion affects society

cyia
depends on how you define worship

Fokker
The French Revolution frequently spoke of the 'religion' of "science, man, reason" ect

KittyPryde
and they are revered, in that adherents want to be awesome like them

cyia
honoring one's memories can be worship

TheIT
Enough people believing in the same thing affects how people act

Fokker
Jean-Jacques Rousseau spoke of politics becoming a religion in itself, disagree or not he does have a following...

cyia
there has to be a component to the belief that makes sense given a shared set of assumptions

KittyPryde
on the other hand, people who say they don't belong to a religion, but they "are spiritual"--don't have a religion

Fokker
That's true... Transendentalists (sp?)

TheIT
So how does it affect religions if in SF/F the "objects" of the religion are obviously real?

cyia
an object can be a symbol

KittyPryde
ahh that's an upcoming quesiton, IT

WhiskeyGirl
what about people who belong to a religion because its expedient or expected and don't actually believe?

cyia
then that's religion without faith

beckykw
that would fit a religion that's part of a state i guess

cyia
two separate things

KittyPryde
yes, that's religion

TheIT
OK. BTW, by "object", I meant "whatever or whoever is being worshipped".

Peter
The Cambridge Dictionary defines "religion" as follows: [1]the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship[1]

cyia
religion is in the rules and observances, faith is in the belief

Peter
yes

beckykw
i agree

KittyPryde
so worldbuilding is concerned with religion, characterization is concerned with faith

Fokker
I like it

cyia
right

cyia
faith defines character, religion defines action

Etola
sounds good to me

TheIT
OK

Peter
So, if that is agreeable as a definition, then we can spring from there to the issue: how we incorporate religion into our stories.

KittyPryde
Next question: How can authors take inspiration from existing or past religions IRL for their worldbuilding?

Peter
(past religions in real life?)

cyia
you have to decide if you want a divided power with a pantheon, or a monotheistic power with one deity

Fokker
Well there's always potential for a religious fanatic...

KittyPryde
I once read a critique of a whole swath of fantasy literature for having a weird polytheistic religion with all the trappings of monotheistic christianity

KittyPryde
Peter, yes like Mithraism

Etola
a world can have both types of worship in conflict

KittyPryde
yep

beckykw
writers generally write what they know. if you're familiar with a certain religion or are actually affliated with that faith, you're more likely to base any fictional religion on things you're familiar with. i think thats pretty normal.

KittyPryde
can we swipe a whole religion, like hinduism or catholicism, and plop it down in our fantasyland?

cyia
with a set up of a pantheon, you can use the conflict/alliances of say the Greek system as a pattern

Etola
and RL history can be used as a good base for how differing religious groups have interacted with each other

TheIT
KP, sure, why not?

cyia
If you use an actual religion, you'd have to sell the universe really well for it to be believable

Peter
O. S. Card didn't bother making one up. He used Portuguese Catholocism in his Ender series.

TheIT
Depends on whether the story is set on earth, too, if you're using the exact description of a real religion

Etola
KP, if it's plopped right down, it depends on how close the trappings are and how fantastic the world is. I'd be shocked to come across a fantasy land that has a carbon copy of Roman catholicism in it.

Andrhia
Cultural appropriation would be why not. Heh.

cyia
how would a human religion develop in kind in another universe?

KittyPryde
but that wasn't fantasyland, in the Enderverse

Taipan
Hey guys, sorry I'm late.

Bahamut
KP- Guy Gavriel Kay did in Lions of Al Rassan (iirc)

WhiskeyGirl
sure, I've plopped voodoo into ancient sumeria because it fits well with what we know of their beliefs and its expedient, building a religion form the ground up is tedious and pretty pointless unless its the main plot

Peter
are we limiting this conversation to fantasy?

Bahamut
never

Fokker
Maybe religion would develop the same way across any universe

KittyPryde
well, religions evolve based on what people fear and the stories they tell to comfort themselves,, yeah?

KittyPryde
way back in the sands of time?

cyia
cultural constructs would change

Taipan
Is the discussion about religions in SciFi.

KittyPryde
both SF and F,

Peter
In both SF and F, I hope.

TheIT
We've been making the basic assumption that we're talking about humans, though....

KittyPryde
it doesn't have to be humans

cyia
yes, but humans in a culture apart from that currently in place

beckykw
logically religious standards would change with the cultures and species

Peter
if the story doesn't involve humans, then the author can pretty much do whatever he or she wishes, eh?

Taipan
That is a point. Who says alien races or even orcs for that matter don't have some kind of religion, deity they look to for guidance.

TheIT
And evolve from where they came from

Etola
any sort of religious system will respond to different environments and social challenges, I think. Aliens on a desert planet will probably worship differently than on an ocean planet

cyia
with fantasy, you can add magic as a component, with sci-fi you have tech, but the constant is still the cultural mores of the humans

Peter
as long as, once established, the author stays consistant.

Peter
Wasnm

Peter
apologies

Etola
pardon the pun, but believability is key, I think

KittyPryde
does anybody every take an earth religion, file the serial numbers off, and use that as their other-world religion?

cyia
not me

Peter
wasn't there a situation in the ISS recently, where there was a Muslim aboard, and he had trouble deciding how to pray to Mecca?

Etola
I'm sure it's been done. Look at the Golden Compass series

KittyPryde
i think so

KittyPryde
yeah, that's a great example

Taipan
I suppose I might use religion as I know it for a bases, but not make it the same.

cyia
the same thing happened with the Israeli who died in the shuttle

Taipan
Especially considering it is an alien race.

cyia
sunrise/sunset came every few hours

Fokker
Makes Sabbath hard to follow I would guess

cyia
right

TheIT
Also depends on where the god(s) come from and how they manifest

Peter
makes for either: a very brief Sabbath, or a very busy one.

KittyPryde
lol

TheIT
Form follows function

cyia
he had to have a rabbi tell him when to observe

Fokker
How would religion act in space? That's almost never considered

WhiskeyGirl
Grass by Tepper does an excellent job of incorporating current religions into a futuristic setting and also adding several new ones

Peter
depends on the novel, Fokker.

TheIT
Or simply away from where the religion originated?

cyia
in the case of the Sabbath, they settled on following the time line of earth for his home

Peter
as mentioned, in Speaker for the Dead, there is a LOT of religion described.

Fokker
More like the physical, the minor tediums of being of the faith

KittyPryde
Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy has all different religions on Mars. I forget how the Moslems pray though

Peter
both human traditional Catholocism, and that of the aliens

Fokker
I found it a horrible over-simplification of the faith

WhiskeyGirl
In The Sparrow the jesuits are the ones responsible for first contact and exploration

cyia
zero gravity could cause problems with certain observances, I would think

Peter
also, in Children of the Mind.

TheIT
If the relition evolved in space, would anything be absolutely fixed?

Taipan
This may be a bit of subject, but a series of novels by Sean Williams, deals a lot with religions, mixing them up and changing them around to suit his own needs.

Taipan
It is the Books of the Cataclysm series.

Etola
TheIT, probably not "fixed" to any geographic calendar or phenomenon that assums being on a planet

cyia
If someone has to prostrate themselves, finding a direction wouldn't be the only difficulty, staying put would be as well

KittyPryde
OH! Great Mars trilogy example: soon after colonization, there are several mystical/mythical beings: Coyote, who is real, but people think he may be a myth. And Big Man, who, like Paul Bunyan, is really big and wandered all over Mars creating terrain features

Peter
Here's something to think about: If you're writing a story that would be otherwise a thriller or a mystery but is a fantasy or SF story because of the spec fic aspects, why bother with in-depth religious analysis?

Taipan
In the series, the world has gone through a cataclysm, and those that survive in the future follow a religion that is a combination of many different current relgions.

KittyPryde
Peter: you need some kind of religion in your world-building, even if you don't go on about it in the story, yeah?

Peter
why?

cyia
religion is sort of a cultural backbone

TheIT
For my fantasy stories, I've been assuming religion exists, but hasn't really affected the storyline

cyia
it gives the people an identity

Etola
Even if something isn't gone into in depth in a SF/F story, one still needs to know it

KittyPryde
because it affects how your characters are raised, and what their ethical beliefs are

Peter
Dashiel Hammet almost NEVER wrote about religion

Fokker
It's essential

TheIT
Identity can come from elsewhere than religion

Angelus
wow

WhiskeyGirl
I agree with Peter, if its irrelivant, why bother?

Angelus
hi all

beckykw
Peter: some stories can be science fiction but be based on the culture of an alien race. part of culture is religion, so it would be covered.

cyia
writing about it, and having it present are two different things

KittyPryde
BUT! Hammet knew most of his readers/characters were modern day christians

WhiskeyGirl
perhaps the aliens are athiests

Fokker
Religion is the culture

beckykw
well that would be up to the aliens/writer

KittyPryde
so if you don't consider religion, you're writing about fantasy/SF peeps who just have our own boring cultural beliefs

Peter
I think that to expect some discussion of religion in a story is to be working too hard at it.

Fokker
We can cut hairs but looking at the world today it's divided along religious lines

moonandstars
kitty, why can't a culture develop ethics with a severe bias against religion?

cyia
every culture is going to have some idea or belief about where they and their world/the universe originated

WhiskeyGirl
can we hope for a better future?

Peter
IF the religion is pertinant to the plot... IF the religion of a character is something that fleshes her or him out....then okay.

KittyPryde
they could, but they haven't done it yet, moon!

Etola
Well, Peter, one could argue that for any aspect of culture that one is building in a secondary world. If details are not shown, the world is less believable.

Peter
but otherwise, why worry about it?

Taipan
Religion should only be in the story if it is relevant, for example, if one of the characters follow this religion, or adversly, they despise the religion.

Peter
exactly

KittyPryde
religion affects beliefs! even if you don't believe in the religion!

TheIT
Yep

moonandstars
kitty, indidviduals do it every day.

TheIT
Yep - peter & taipan

KittyPryde
atheism exists in the individual, but whole cultures have yet to embrace it

Peter
some stories just aren't ABOUT a character's religious beliefs, or faith in a superior being, etc.

KittyPryde
no.

Peter
some stories are about why ray guns hurt

Fokker
atheism is still a religion

KittyPryde
but the worldbuilding still needs to exist

moonandstars
Well I could argue for communist cultures, but of course they are not really atheists.

WhiskeyGirl
we're told to pair everything down to essentials, if it isn't, we cut it

cyia
and even a hard core atheist has to deal with a world in which they are a minority

KittyPryde
consider a book about (say) a nerdy computer programmer. He could be a hindu in india, or a protestant in the US. Would it make a difference? yes

WhiskeyGirl
why include religion if it isnt a plot point?

cyia
but cultural identity IS essential, and a character's beliefs are are essential to that identity

TheIT
Not if all he's trying to do is fix a bug.

KittyPryde
i'm not arguing to include religion in the novel. I'm arguing to include religion in the worldbuilding

Taipan
I agree, atheism is a religion in just as much sense as Christianty or Hindu.

Etola
Even if it isn't a plot point, I think it doens't hurt for the author to know about it

KittyPryde
TheIT: that'd make for a boring book

cyia
sure it matters. It's the difference between a guy who stares at the screen and one who mumbles a prayer under his breath

moonandstars
If a character knows where he came from, metaphyscially speaking, religion may never arise in his culture.

TheIT
It was a really BIG bug. With teeth. And fangs.

Fokker
If you don't consider religion is just sounds like passive agressive atheism

Peter
well, okay. If your character is Hindi, then you need to be aware of the requirements his religion places on him... but you don't have to go into church services.

KittyPryde
alright, next question: If the gods in a fictional world are physically present characters, how can the author use them without a deus ex machine?

KittyPryde
Peter, exactly!

cyia
they need a restriction on them

Peter
But why mention he's Hindi at all?

Peter
ok, we're on next topic.

KittyPryde
you don't even have to mention it, you just have to have it in your head

cyia
either they aren't all knowing or they must have a human to do their will by choice

TheIT
If tthe gods show up , they're so powerful they destabilize reality

Taipan
In my story, the villain is a self-proclaimed god, so it makes things a little simpler for me anyway.

Peter
um, gods ARE deus ex machina.

Andrhia
To build a world in your head you need a pretty good grasp of your economics and geography, too, but it doesn't necessarily have to make it into your story

cyia
you can have a fallen god - one with limited power trying to regain his place

beckykw
make them untouchable. or exclusively only approachable by a certain class or person, like the leader of the people or someone "worthy"

TheIT
Gods make rules to act through mortal instruments

KittyPryde
the Lovecraftian Old Ones are gods, and the only limit to their badassery is basically that they don't give a crap about humans at all

Fokker
To answer the OP; MAD

Fokker
Mutually Assured Destruction

moonandstars
Writers ignore all kinds of aspects of a fictional world. He can ignore that the gods are monoliths in the town square, too.

moonandstars
Just don't mention them.

Etola
It's possible that gods may be limited in their domain/powers

cyia
you can't not mention them if they appear in the story as a character

Etola
especially in a polytheistic pantheon

Fokker
It may they are so equal it's impossible for one of them to move decisively

TheIT
Game of chess

KittyPryde
so the Old Ones CAN do anything they want, but we're so insignificant that they don't bother to mess with us, except incidentally

beckykw
gods aren't human, so perhaps they would have no interest in human problems, thus they wouldn't get involved

Andrhia
I daresay that if the god is woven into the whole narrative, rather than popping up just at the end to solve everything, that avoids the deus ex machina problem

cyia
they may need a majority rule for their decisions to work

moonandstars
cyia, who knows what a 'god' is anyway?

cyia
one who believes in that god

Peter
if Thor appears and doesn't like some of the people around the campfire, he can blast one away with a lightning bolt. If that character is your villian, you have: deus ex machina.

TheIT
Maybe the story springs from the god attempting to fix everything and getting it wrong?

Bahamut
I like that, IT

beckykw
me too

moonandstars
becky, who says gods aren't human? Of course they are. We made them up.

cyia
unless you make it so that Thor isn't allowed to indiscriminately zap without consequences

Bahamut
Gods make great antagonists

TheIT
Are the gods omnipotent or omniscient? Makes for different limitations

Fokker
If we made them up, then they would be invincible

KittyPryde
In "Crystal Rain" and "Sly Mongoose" by Toby Buckell, the MCs are AGAINST the gods, who happen to be powerful aliens

Fokker
If they're not omni-blah, they're imaginary friends

TheIT
Make the gods up to not be invincible.

cyia
a person who believes in a god would argue that they are not made up at all

Fokker
It's all semantics, I suppose

beckykw
well, i'm speaking from a sense that gods are from a higher plane of existance. they could be something similar in nature to humans, with emotions and illogical trains of thoughts

Taipan
Yes, they do. Dark evil gods especially. Except for those kinds trying to bring a world of chaos.

moonandstars
fokker, they can't be invincible because nothing is invincible.

Taipan
That is so cliche.

moonandstars
becky, I agree with that.

Fokker
Nothing is invincible, what about a quark?

moonandstars
Very advanced aliens.

cyia
nothing you know if is invincible, that doesn't mean an invincible something doesn't exist

Fokker
Or if you believe in string theory...

TheIT
Think Greek/Roman mythology. Each god had strengths and weaknesses

cyia
that's the beauty of belief

moonandstars
A quark? lol

Etola
if gods are present, perhaps they're trapped in "a mortal coil," as it were, and are thus limited

* Peter thinks gods aren't of much use if they're NOT omnipotent)

WhiskeyGirl
yes IT and had to answer to his fellows

Fokker
Quarks are indivisible,

moonandstars
cyia, show me something invincible.

Fokker
Quarks

TheIT
Ominipotent in everything or only in a single aspect?

beckykw
they can be usable characters when they're not omnipotent

Peter
Fokker, so far ...

cyia
you can have a god who was judged by his peers and lost his power.

* Peter smiles

TheIT
So how does one kill a god?

KittyPryde
Question: religion on earth is based on the belief that things we can't see really do exist. If the deities really do exist, and turn up to cause trouble, does religion still work?

cyia
You don't have to see somethign to know it's possible - even something highly improbable

Peter
IT you have to be another god

moonandstars
God is an idea. Nothing more.

cyia
there are no absolutes so far as that goes

TheIT
Worship becomes admiration or fear - have to appeal to the god for help, or placate them so you don't get zapped

cyia
not to a believer. God is more real than a person to a believer, that's what makes faith so dangerous

beckykw
you can worship and organize worship around a physical thing, so yes, it would work

Fokker
Is it possible to have too much faith in that faith is bad?

beckykw
or it could give them proof of their belief

beckykw
yes

Taipan
Cyia has a point. If someone believes so strongly in his religion, they will let nothing get in the way of following it.

TheIT
And vanish in a puff of logic (Adams)

moonandstars
There must be lots of other things we can't see...like radio waves. Why would an animal develop sensory apparatus for EVERY kind of object?

cyia
depends on what you believe in. If your faith makes you slaughter those who don't believe, then yes. It's bad

beckykw
thats where cults come in...

Etola
It's also possible to have idol worship--in that case, the god physically exists right there on the altar.

TheIT
Cyia, you just described the Crusaders....

Fokker
But not the Mongols

Peter
If your deity showed up in the warehouse you were sweeping out, looking like a warty old black man in a white suit, would you believe it?

Taipan
Just take a look at history. How many people have done things in God's name. Like Joan of Arc.

moonandstars
But just because we can't see or otherwise detect an object doesn't mean it's a 'god'.

Fokker
Not the Mongols

cyia
or is represented by what's on the alter and exists on another plane (Crusaders, and others)

Fokker
Or the Timurids

Fokker
And by themselves they eliminated more then the Crusaders could hope to in a 1000 years

Fokker
And they were, fairly speaking, without religion

moonandstars
taipan, mental illness is everywhere.

TheIT
If the gods are tangible, then faith/believe would be in what the gods represent rather than in their existence.

Etola
and likewise, just because something physically exists in a way a person can physically interact with, doesn't make it less of a god

KittyPryde
ok, new question: [1]How does religion affect ethics and decision-making of the characters?[1]

cyia
When a man kills for power, it's his own illness, when a man kills in the name of a god, it assigns traits to all believers of that religion by defautly

Taipan
In a lot of ways.

moonandstars
etola, I sure can't imagine an omniscient being that wants to sit among the amoebas like us.

beckykw
we can see that in real life

Taipan
Some believe that murder is a mortal sin, while others believe it a way of life.

TheIT
Depends on what the god represents. Worshipping a war god would lead to violence, worshipping a fertility god would ... ahem...

Fokker
I can't imagine a perfect world

Fokker
Does that mean it can't exist?

cyia
If the character believes that certain actions equate to cleanliness or uncleanliness, or if certain actions equate blessing or cursing, those actions will be defined for the person by his beliefs

moonandstars
Yes, a perfect world does not exist.

Etola
Moon, other people can imagine such a being, and have

TheIT
Plays into why the god is worshipped

beckykw
fokker: the meaning of "perfect" can change from person to person. in theory, it can't.

KittyPryde
an adherent might have a different way of treating/viewing fellow adherents versus members of other religions

Fokker
So the discussion changes from belief to fact when talking of a utopia

TheIT
Us vs. Them

moonandstars
etola, other people are scared silly of the things they can't control. Saying they imagine a god and there being a god are two different things.

Fokker
While it stays in the realm of metaphysical while speaking of religion

cyia
depends on your version of paradise

Fokker
What does that say of us?

cyia
you can believe hell is a lake of fire or a sludge pit on Saturn, whichever one you believe will affect how you relate to an alien from Saturn

Etola
I'm just saying here that a religion based on a physical object/representation is plausible

Taipan
Many characters in general are defined by thier religion. Often if they go against it, do something that is considered terrible in the eyes of their peers, they end up going off the rails, or try desperately to get back into grace.

moonandstars
I personally think the aliens are laughing at us. They watch tv, see how we do politics and religion. Surely it's gotta be entertaining.

cyia
a benevolent alien who happens to have red skin and a pointed tail might not get a great reception around here

Taipan
Haha Cyia

Fokker
I would find it ironic if aliens came to Earth in the name, and motivated by, a religious figure/person/belief

Fokker
A Holy Crusade to bring enlightenment to the dark corners of the universe

moonandstars
etola, people worship stones all the time. Statues. Mountaines. The sun. Any object is fair game.

Taipan
From a Christian POV, what if aliens believed in the same god as us.

moonandstars
That's what primitives do.

Etola
Exactly. I'm not disagreeing with that.

WhiskeyGirl
primitives? Isn't that a little biased?

cyia
imagine if something seeimingly benign to earth was sacred to an alien race - like oil. What if they considered it some kind of holy blood and thought humans were wasting or desecrating it?

moonandstars
taipan, how could aliens know the specific aspects of an earth religion?

TheIT
Good story idea, cyia

Peter
what ARE "primatives?"

* Peter smiles

moonandstars
I'm biased, and proud of it.

Fokker
If it is reached conclusively that we cannot go faster then light, or anything else for that matter, what would keep them going? Faith is as good as anything.

Fokker
Though money works well enough

Taipan
They probably wouldn't, but just think that God did not just create Earth but many other planets and systems, all infected with sin at the same time Earth was.

TheIT
Some could argue money defines a religion.

moonandstars
What does speed have to do with superstition?

TauCeti
The aliens in my novel do believe in the same god

Taipan
From the first instant that Eve took a bite of the forbidden fruit.

WhiskeyGirl
so aliens are paying for humans original sin, thats from a book already and they were pissed about it as I recall

moonandstars
taipan, that any culture even tries to pin down the meaning of a word like 'sin' is just plain funny.

cyia
from a Christian POV, one could argue that only earth "fell" - instant conflict right there. The others are still perfect

Taipan
Mine too Whisky girl.

beckykw
hmm, good point cyia. only from a Christian POV though

cyia
right

KittyPryde
ok, new question: [1]Over time, human religions have changed, or some have, based on events around them. How would religions change given a rapidly advanced future?[1]

TheIT
Change in how beliefs and rituals are observed.

Taipan
You mean like Oprahism on Futurama.

Peter
worship the fusion reactor?

cyia
Advanced tech could be used to account for some prophetic events that made no sense in the past (odd descriptions of animals and what not)

TheIT
Like trying to figure out when to observe the Sabbath on the space shuttle

moonandstars
kitty, what do you mean by rapidly advanced?

beckykw
well if we develop technology like human cloning, we may be pressued to change our opinion on how all-powerful god is if we can mimick things a god can do

Peter
assume humans are removed from the Earth... live not just elsewhere in the solar system, but on planets orbiting other stars.

Etola
Well, I think we already see religions reacting to new technologies that affect the human body. One could extrapolate that--for example, a religion that forbids cybernetic limbs

cyia
or you get the debate over whether or not a clone has a soul

KittyPryde
moon, like, when we are out amongst the stars, settling new planets

Peter
do they continue with being Baptists and Muslims?

moonandstars
You mean advanced technology.

cyia
sure. why not?

Peter
or why?

beckykw
religions would change with each new environment, i think.

KittyPryde
religions mostly do not embrace new technology, especially bio tech

beckykw
minutely, maybe. but there would be changes.

Fokker
What if, at one point, science exceeds the social limitations of society and ends up stuntings its growth for a generation?

Peter
I'm not saying one way or other, but isn't it a distinct possibility that completely NEW religions would arise?

Fokker
Not exactly "machines attack!" But maybe something close

WhiskeyGirl
look at how far removed from their roots many modern religions are and add 1000 years, I think its silly to think there will still be mormons when the giant space bugs attack

moonandstars
Well, when religion tells me I can't cut off a mole or wart because it's 'godly' tissue, I'm going to have to protest.

Fokker
New religion from an alien race?

beckykw
good point

cyia
you could conceivably end up with another dark ages if multiple wide spread religions rebelled against technology at once

* Peter points out that zen buddhism has been around some 2 millenia already.

TheIT
Worshipping the alien race

moonandstars
peter, new religions are all around us. Christianity will be gone soon, and Islam and Judaism. Just wait a couple hundred years.

Peter
soon?

Peter
how soon?

Peter
in 100 years? 1000 years? 4000 years?

moonandstars
Depends on people.

Peter
depends on the story

moonandstars
Or plague. Or asteroids.

KittyPryde
i read a great book where people worshipped cyborgs, and to be a more faithful member of the religion one would lop off one's limbs and get cybernetic replacements

moonandstars
Without people there's no religion.

Fokker
Considering how much we look up to to aliens, I can imagine a POV where humanity is accompanying their every religious belief

KittyPryde
the cyborgs were similar to angels, and they looked after people

cyia
ouch

moonandstars
Until the next sapient creature starts making marks in the mud. Maybe the dolphins.

Taipan
I wouldn't like to be part of that religion Kitty.

Peter
well, there is that, too.

cyia
if there's an asteroid plague, there's no ocean for dolphins

KittyPryde
taipan-they seemedd to be enjoying themselves

TheIT
A plague of asteroids? So much for the planet.

Peter
when we meet another intelligent species (if we do), they will have what for them is a religion.

Peter
and that religion may NOT LOOK TO US MUCH LIKE ONE.

TheIT
Which might or might not mesh with our views

Peter
right

TheIT
yep

TauCeti
so long and thanks for the fish

Taipan
Really, self mutilation is not something I would call enjoyful, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Peter
it's all the fault of the mice.

cyia
mice?

moonandstars
peter, I think truly advanced beings will have swept superstition into the dustbin of their history.

Peter
mice

TheIT
So how would we even recognize an alien race's religion?

Peter
superstition and religion are NOT the same thing.

WhiskeyGirl
who says aliens will be truly advanced

moonandstars
Are so.

WhiskeyGirl
maybe they're just clever

cyia
it could be a very overt religion if they have prayer requirements at set intervals

Peter
sometimes they come very close, but the words have distinct meanings

TheIT
Cyia - mice from Hitchhiker's Guide

moonandstars
whiskey, well, we certainly aren't advanced. It's not hard to imagine some alien race that's further along than we .

cyia
Oh -- I got lost

TauCeti
they are in a majority of s/f

Fokker
If we can only move at the speed of light, any race we encounter will be advanced

KittyPryde
ok, one more question gang: How can we make points (for or against) aspects of religions in a story without being preachy?

cyia
imagine if an alien craft landed on Mecca or St. Peter's Bassilica

Taipan
That is a hard question to answer.

Etola
it's a hard thing to do

Peter
cyia, during services, you mean?

Peter
not at midnight?

Fokker
It's impossible, if one is looking for it

TheIT
Make the story results fall naturally from events.

cyia
Treat the religion as a given part of the character's day. Show their observance without telling the specifics of the beliefs.

beckykw
well you could just give the facts about the religion?

moonandstars
kitty, anyone with a halfway objective mind will recognize the ugly applause for religion if the writer makes it so. The superstitious-inclined won't even know it happened.

Taipan
You could say that C.S. Lewis did that with the Narnia series, but it wasn't very subtle.

cyia
Peter, I mean period. If they were to land on a religious landmark and destroy it...

TheIT
Have characters embodying both pros and cons of the religion

TauCeti
Give the aliens a tangible reason to believe in it?

Peter
use a deus nix machina? g
beckykw
i also agree with cyia. make the religion very ordinary in the story, so its not jumping out at people's faces

cyia
Show how the religion(s) interact with daily life.

Etola
make it clear that different characters have different takes on the religion? Maybe one is a zealot, but balance it with people who are not

TheIT
Have the story conflict stem from a religious conflict

Taipan
The religion does not have to be the main part of the story. Make it more about the character than the actual religion.

TheIT
Show both sides of the conflict

Taipan
It, has a good point.

TheIT
Show that the "good" side might not be completely perfect, and the "bad" side isn't completely evil. Shades of grey.

Etola
Yeah...one of the reasons I was frustrated with the His Dark Materials trilogy was not necessarily the viewpoint it presented, but that it was presented very one-sidedly

moonandstars
lol Religion and conflict are pretty much synonyms.

Taipan
For many, it is easy to be biased, but if they see something from both sides, it helps.

TheIT
Let the reader decide

Etola
I agree with IT

Taipan
That's what I meant.

cyia
my whole story is a religious conflict on 3 fronts

beckykw
depending on the narrator, you could cover both sides without picking a side yourself as the writer

Fokker
I would like to see a story that doesn't just focus on a religious conflict, but a true cultural conflict

beckykw
i have a similar story cyia. religion is what connects the MC to the aliens involved

TheIT
The writer shouldn't obviously pick a side

KittyPryde
that's a good idea IT

TheIT
That's authorial intrusion if the narrator is biased

Fokker
The writer could, but make it so obviously wrong...

TheIT
3rd person narrator, that is

moonandstars
A story where only the facts are presented? Then you're writing journalism. That's not fiction.

TheIT
1st person is different

beckykw
i meant if it were 1st persion, IT

KittyPryde
all writers are biased, though, right?

Taipan
Becky, even as a writer if can be hard not to be biased if what you're writing is against your own beliefs, cultures, traditions, etc...

cyia
1st person -- one POV from each side

beckykw
i agree Taipan

TheIT
Present the facts and the characters take on the facts - that's not journalism

Etola
Fokker, then you're getting into "unreliable narrator" territory--and you also risk having readers take the "false" argument seriously

moonandstars
IT, and you are your characters. No way around it.

WhiskeyGirl
yes well, if you're completely unbiased, you risk alienating a lot of readers. Think of a religion where promiscuity is the norm and actually praised, modern readers will still be thinking "sluts!"

Fulk
There will always be some slight bias. For some stories, you just have to raise more questions than you answer.

Taipan
Like for me for instance, to have a character rag on Christianity, I would immediately be on the other characters side.

TheIT
No, my characters do lots of things I never would do

moonandstars
Never say never.

Fulk
Some stories do boil down to becoming polemics, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

TheIT
Character does not equal author.

moonandstars
Does too.

Fokker
Impasse

moonandstars
Does not. Does too.

TheIT
A characters actions are extrapolations.

* KittyPryde is not as bad as her bad guys

Taipan
Hey moon, did you just come to stir up trouble?

moonandstars
lol

Peter
Okay folks. One minute warning.

We're gonna shut off the log soon. So make your points now

beckykw
religion is important to culture. if you're making up your own culture, for scifi or fantasy, religion is always going to be part of the story. Lol

Taipan
Religion in general defines your characters. And if they aren't religious, than that defines them too.

cyia
1. religion good 2. religion bad. 3. religion benign. Case closed

WhiskeyGirl
what if you make up a culture where religion isn't important?

Fokker
Then it isn't a culture?

Fulk
That's not so.

Etola
McCaffrey did it with Pern. She specifically set out to create a culture without religion

Fulk
It's just a non-religious culture.

beckykw
or it is, considering the absence of religion fills in the void.

cyia
so does culture define religious observances or does religion define cultural observances?

Etola
though, from what I hear, she did go back and ret-con some beliefs in an afterlife

beckykw
strangely enough

WhiskeyGirl
If you cant imagine a world without religion than your imagination seems to be lacking

moonandstars
Who can make a point in 60 seconds??

Cassiopeia
those who don't ask who can do it?

moonandstars
There's nothing I hate worse than a gaggle of semi-intelligenct beings hijacked by someone's superstition. Bad. Very Bad.

Hollow
That's how the world works moonandstars

moonandstars
I must be an idealist.

Taipan
Wow, someone that thinks I am intelligent, even if only semi.

Fulk
Also, I want to kick myself in the pants for missing tonight's discussion.

moonandstars
Tending toward realism in my old age.

cyia
you don't have to share the beliefs of your characters. I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who've written religions into their universes for the sake of conflict or narrative

Fulk
Cyia: Pullman did.

Etola
yeah, but recently in the chat-related thread, Baha mentioned magitech was being pushed to a different week

Fulk
Herbert, too, I believe.

WhiskeyGirl
I'm an atheist writing an entire book about religion right now, my only point was that I don't think its mandatory for culture or ethics

cyia
so what are your cultures based on?

beckykw
i think my lack of religion heightens my spirituality. most of my stories have spirituality involved in them.

Fokker
Sounds like a structured belief on reason

moonandstars
Havin' babies, killin' animals, roastin' stuff over the fire. Now that's culture.

Fulk
Art, music, dance, etc. are all a part of culture as well.

Fulk
None of them have to have basis in religion.

WhiskeyGirl
you forgot literature

Fulk
Yes.
That too

Fulk
Humans instinctually like pretty words and sights and experiences.

cyia
but where's the inspiration for those? Most arts develop first from myths

* Peter resets topic
* end of log at 10:07 July 2, 2009

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