"Marketing Guy" Speaks out (it is time to set the record straight)

Jason,

I can't even imagine how it must have felt to read through the Son of PAMB thread here on AW. We try very hard to focus our dislike of PA's practices on PA itself and sometimes that spills over onto an author.

Thank you for the apology. I understand how hard it is to hear anything negative about PA. Especially when you think that they are a legitimate publisher and have read your book and want to see you and it succeed.

I hate that your experience with PA turned out the way it did. Every time I hear about another author being misled and disappointed with PA it just fuels my fire to get the word out to authors before they sign on the dotted line with PA.

I know I keep saying I'm glad you're here, but I really am! The people here have really helped me to heal and begin to move on from my PA experience. You are among friends here who will tell you the truth and want you to succeed in all your endeavors.

Oh, marketing guy - you'll see that being called Marketing Guy was NOT a negative. Honest. We try not to use names, so you get a nickname. It's not to make fun of you or anything. Really. We like having you here

It doesn't always come across that way, but we here harbor no ill will toward PA authors in general (there are a few I don't like, but it has nothing to do with them being PA authors, and everything to do with them being less-than-nice people in general and going out of their way to antagonize.) It's PA we despise, NOT the authors. Really.

And just to prove it to you, whenever you feel the need to set your hair on fire (you know, something really has you saying, "WTF???!!!???" - just let me know. I keep lighters on hand for just such an occasion - ask anyone here. You want to set your hair on fire, I'm your lighter connection.

Jason,

Sometimes the truth feels more like a kick to the face than someone trying to be helpful, and sometimes even knowing what you are heading into, doesn't stop you from wanting to see what you set out to get become a reality. (man that was long sentence, lol) It's hard to be patient, even at my age. Getting past the disappointment is always the most difficult task, yet when you do and you are able to see within yourself more drive than you had to begin with, then you have truly managed the rough water and are ready to forge ahead. Much luck to you. You have the drive, now go for it!

JasonRobert said:

I, however, did not realize many of you have been following my time at PA since the beginning over on the Son of a PAMB thread.

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Oh, you didn't? I kinda thought that was why you came on over.

Desperation. Neglecting my instincts. Impatience. I was much smarter than this. I knew the negatives yet didn't want to believe them.

<snip>

To sum it up, my ambition got the best of me. I focused so much on marketing, publicity, and other plans that I neglected what was most important. My craft. Instead of admitting myself to the truth and writing to improve. I abandoned the one thing which I love the most.

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Luckily you recognized the trap you fell into early enough to save your bank account and your love of writing. Now you can move on and really accomplish your dream, though I'd suggest not putting a time limit on it. Published by 30 sounds great, but what if 30 comes and goes without a book contract? Will you feel like a failure and give up? Don't set yourself up like that. Write because you love it and look forward to being published whenever it happens.

Jason,

I applaud your honesty. I don't know if I would have admitted such if I went with PA. I was saved by AW, and a really scary guy who was posting on the PAMB at the time, who made me think, this can't be legit.

As for "Marketing Guy", it wasn't meant as an insult. Like Jerzee said, we don't like to use author's names.

Best of luck with your writing.

Just use it all as a learning experience. I almost fell into PA then I discovered these boards!

Dittoing the "Marketing guy" thing; we try to avoid using names because we don't think it's right for these threads to show up on a Google search of someone's name. These threads are forever, pretty much; imagine how you would feel, a few years from now when you've sold to legit houses, to Google yourself and find your name mentioned here with quotes from your time on the PAMB. Or if you applied for a new job and a prospective eployer Googled you and found these threads with your name attached. Not very good, huh.

So really, although it may feel like it's us snarking you, it isn't; it's us trying to allow you (and the other PAMBers) some anonymity and protect your/their reputation.

As for the other comments. Please keep something in mind. The purpose of taking quotes from the PAMB is both to safeguard them--a lot of the quotes we take mysteriously disappear from the PAMB before anyone sees them--and to use them as jumping-off points to explain how things should work, what should actually happen, why the assumptions within it about the industry are incorrect, whatever. It's not--or at least very rarely--personal. I hope that as you read those threads you saw how many of us were genuinely impressed with the amount of work you'd done and what you'd accomplished, and were just sorry that it was all wasted on PA.

If things were said that hurt you I genuinely apologize. I think I can speak for everyone here in saying we never intended for that to happen.

But here's something else to keep in mind. Those posts, and our comments? Could have already prevented someone else from signing with PA.

I'm very glad you're sticking around. And I'm glad you seem to have put it in perspective. But please accept my sincere apologies if I ever said anything with regard to your posts that hurt you. I try very hard to make sure my comments aren't about the author, but only the author in question can say whether or not I succeeded.

JasonRobert said:

I discovered these posts this evening and have spent the the last two hours reading everything pertaining to me (marketing guy).

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Hey Jason,

As Jersey said, "Marketing Guy" is a nickname. We try not to use authors' names and book titles here, because we don't want them to google their names or book titles and see a lot of Absolute Write links coming up before their own webpages do.

While some criticism was taken to heart and constructive, and some hurt very deeply, I understand why things were said from your perspective.

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I'm sorry that you were hurt. It can be a bit of a shock after PA, where no one will say anything critical about your writing or your marketing plans. We tend to be blunt here, and sometimes we get frustrated when we see other writers being treated badly or wasting their money. But we also understand why things were said from your perspective, and we appreciate your apology. And we're glad to have you here.

I am sure this is the same swan song many post-PA survivors have belted.

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Quite a few of the thirty thousand happy authors, yes.

They now range from "I won't say anything negative, but I'm looking for another publisher for my sequel" to "PA's belt doesn't go through all its loops."

I did wake up that morning feeling blessed to be able to write and the experience of telling a story is special to me. While many see this as melodramatic, it did mean a lot to me.

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I remember that when I read the essay on being blessed to be writers, my first thought was, "How sad, he loves writing but he signed up with PA". Other responses may have been skeptical since there have been other PA authors who have posted on the PAMB about how grateful they are. It's difficult to tell when this is genuine and when it's an attempt to make sure that everyone is happy happy happy on that board.

I honestly do not want to give PA any credit or lure any more aspiring writers into their trap. Plus, I see no reason in spending money and putting myself in a hole during these hard financial times.

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Kudos on not wanting to give PA any more air time. That's one reason so many writers fall into the trap - they see a new PA author, happy about how easily PA accepted the book and how fast it's being printed. And surely the warnings must be outdated, if the author is having a book signing?

I also hear you about the money. If you've paid for copyediting, cover art, books and shipping, that's a lot to have spent already.

What I do value is what I learned about editing and believe I can take the advice and editing suggestions learned from this experience and apply it myself.

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Sounds like a good idea, especially if you have some good books on editing to help (my favorites are Self-Editing for Fiction Writers and The First Five Pages). You can also post excerpts in the Share Your Work forum and ask people to rip into them.

Even if takes me until I am 30 to get that publishing deal I dream of, I know it will be well worth it.

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I just tell myself, "It takes ten years to make an overnight success."

You're doing well already, Jason. You've got the guts to face your mistakes and move on from there, and I like your plan of starting a writers' group. Who knows, some day I may say to a fellow bookstore browser, "Oh, there's the new Jason Robert novel. I knew him when he was 'Marketing Guy'."

I echo Self Editing for Fiction Writers and The First Five Pages. These were a tremendous helps when I was writing and revising. Oh, and Stephen King's On Writing. These should be on every writer's bookshelf right next to Elements of Style.

Jason, I followed your saga on the threads here and couldn't help but wonder how someone with that much drive and determination (and dare I say, talent?) could have succeeded with a commercial publisher. Well, the first book will be your learning curve, and your second perhaps will succeed.

Just don't be in a big big rush. Take your time and do it right.

Oh, and get your money back for your forty books. As a consumer, you do have the right to return shoddy merchandise.

I'm glad you proved me wrong when I said you'd likely fade quietly away. Your hard work, dedication, and willingness to learn from your mistakes will take you very far.

Hey, Jason! Don't be so hard on yourself. You were the target of a vicious and premeditated scam. These PA people are more clever than we give them credit for on the Son of PAMB and its ilk . . . otherwise they wouldn't have been in business almost 10 years and wouldn't have attracted 30 thousand "happy authors." If you have expressed anything less than rosy feelings about your experience, PA is no doubt doing its best to put the blame back on you. That's just the way they operate, and it's all smoke and mirrors. (I'm guessing by now, you've gotten one or more of the infamous tone letters).

Desperation, neglecting my instincts, and impatience are the very things PA is counting on with their business model. If they were honest about the way they really worked (charging an up front fee rather than presenting themselves as a traditional publisher), this board probably wouldn't exist.

Also, there is a difference between suspicion and deep understanding. The first time I read the Washington Post article, I couldn't quite figure out what all the fuss was about. I have been a student of the PA boards for a few months now, and I feel like lately I have FINALLY gotten a grasp on how it operates differently from other publishers. I really needed some time to learn about the publishing industry to really understand why PA is a poor model.

So once again WELCOME! and instead of feeling the need to defend yourselves to us rabble, put the blame where the blame is due!

JasonRobert said:

As for the books they told me to send them a few of the copies so they could deem them damaged enough to be replaced. I said hell no am I paying for shipping to send you something you will say is fine in the end.

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You're kidding, right? No, wait, I know you're not.

Okay - so the customer is dissatisfied, but PA gets the final call on whether you have a right to be dissatisfied... oy. **headdeskheaddeskheaddesk**

So really, although it may feel like it's us snarking you, it isn't; it's us trying to allow you (and the other PAMBers) some anonymity and protect your/their reputation.

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Jason, yes, you did make us a little crazy on the PAMB board. That's because we, as a group, saw your potential and enthusiasm, and we hated seeing it being used to promote PA.

It's not easy waking up from a cult experience. But, you have and now you are PA's greatest nightmare. Congrats! And double-dog congrats on helping some of the other PA'ers into the lifeboat and bringing them to shore. Keep rowing! We have plenty of warm towels and hot cocoa.

I join in on the group apology if things got too snarky. Sometimes when the PA is stepped in and starts getting smeared around everything gets slimed and smelly.

JasonRobert said:

Desperation. Neglecting my instincts. Impatience.

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Please don't beat yourself up over this. Before he became a vanity publisher, Willem was a professional psychologist. He knows exactly what he's doing.

James D. Macdonald said:

Please don't beat yourself up over this. Before he became a vanity publisher, Willem was a professional psychologist. He knows exactly what he's doing.

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Amen to that. I am a doc. of psychology, and every time I read a posted tone letter or other tripe from PA, or even look at their website, a neon sign goes off in my mind saying "Classic Manipulation Techniques." If PA were a person, I would stamp "sociopath" on its forehand. Let go of those bad feelings and put 100 percent of your energy elsewhere, like into those new books. You were taken in by experts in the field.

Put a chapter in the Share Your Work forum, and we'll have a look.

Posted by Jason

I, however, did not realize many of you have been following my time at PA since the beginning over on the Son of a PAMB thread.

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The reason I was watching your posts so closely was because I too had a contract and wanted desperately to sign it. I was also beginning to be educated concerning the negativity surrounding PA. However, I had a manuscript that needed permission for quotes and mine being a story of truth…I needed signed release forms from all “real” people I had written about.

I sent the sample contract to my lawyer…something didn’t sit right with me with such a quick response from PA, I had long ago tried to query short children stories and it took months at times to receive an answer. Before going over the contract, my lawyer directed me to PE and to the “never-ending PA post.” Still I didn’t want to believe it. I started visiting the PA message boards and read all the wonderful stories about PA. I looked through “Up in lights.” I wanted to believe they were legit, but I also was cross checking back over to the never-ending posts here at AW.

I was lucky in a way…I had time to really think, read, watch, and learn…waiting on permission from “real” people and I too had help with editing. I wouldn’t sign anything until I had everything in line and ready to be sent…and of course what my lawyer had to say about the contract. Non-fiction has its own set of rules.

I saw posts on the message board disappear before anyone could respond. I read one where someone asked about a “chill out room.” I couldn’t find a link for that place and the post disappeared. One day I saw your posts… (My manuscript was accepted in Nov.) You sounded so very positive, so happy, everything I had hoped for. I could tell you were a seasoned writer and very motivated and I saw something in your determination that I felt. I kept trying to tell myself I was like you and would not give up and I just might be one that could make it big. But…there were so many stories here at AW from authors that had felt like I did…so I kept reading and learning.

One post I read from you was so encouraging I almost said “heck with it” and I came so close to signing…against every thing deep inside that I felt. I just wanted my book out there as you did. For some unknown reason the comments here at AW out weighed your “bliss.” There were just too many to ignore. So I told family and friends I declined the contract. That was a bad day and I became obsessed with reading the message boards thinking I might have made a mistake.

One day your positive posts stopped and I wondered what happened until I came back here and saw you had joined. I was so thankful you stepped up and told your story.

My mother sent me a PA published book written by a friend of my aunts in Indiana…the book was published early 2007 and has 122 pages. She wondered why it never appeared in any book stores, why she never got a royalty check; most sad why it was being sold for $27.95 on Amazon…she is 79 years old. No one had the heart to tell her…I certainly can’t. All e-mails she has sent to PA were ignored; she even today is hounded by “discounts” offered by PA. It is sad some people do not understand the publishing process and are reeled in by lack of knowledge. This book given the realistic “opportunity that it deserved” just might have been a cute pocket book sold at a reasonable price.

I often wonder how many people are fooled by the “message board” and by not allowing time to let the dust settle and make sure they are fully aware of the ripple effect. I continue to be grateful for so many that have stepped up and told the truth…hard as it is/was. Even I felt foolish after telling so many people I was going to be published and then chewing my words later. But…much better to have learned by others than to be here trying to cut the chain PA puts around their authors neck. Thank you all for sharing your stories. I am one with a "happy" ending, can move forward and continue to learn.

I have not been following the marketing guy story at all. I basically just stumbled in here. It takes a big person to admit their mistakes. It takes one hell of a big person to do it this publicly. Seems like you have your plan in place jason, from here the only one thats gonna keep you from getting published is you. Well said and well done. Welcome to AW.


yer pal Brian

Dude, instead of going into full denial and insisting PA was right and the rest of the entire publishing industry was wrong--

Instead of curling into a fetal position and stopping up your ears and swearing to never write again, you're just TOO hurt--

You put on your game face and decided to kick arse and take names.

That's something we all respect.

Grrrrr! Go for it.

I rarely post or even browse in this part of the message board because I signed with PA when I was 19 years old. I didn't have a clue how publishing worked other than the author should get paid and not pay to be published. I didn't have anything on my resume, I didn't even know what a query really was. The PA threads were non-existant.

About a month after I signed my second contract for my second ever completed book (two months after the first) the first thread opened here and I was already feeling uneasy about PA. I asked a question about their distributor, just a simple non-negative question on the boards and my post vanished and I was banned. Then they lied about me not really being banned, they'd "lost" my password.

With a subliminal effort to counteract my supposed trend down the negative (i.e. I wasn't buying it) they gave me the password "rainbow" which I had for less than a week before they magically lost my password again. Apparently I asked too many questions.

It was shortly before the second ban someone on the boards mentioned AW and to stay away from them and not listen to the lies being perpetuated there. I found my way there thinking "Hey, if someone has something bad to say, I want to know about it because the warning bells are ringing (Three months too late, the bastards)."

I won't tell you all that I went through after that. It was a long time before I got my rights back, my second was canceled before it was released so thankfully I own full rights to it, however the first and most favorite of the two is dead. It was published, first printing rights are gone. Even with me telling everyone I knew not to buy my book, I still recieved over $60 in royalties, and it would have been much more but they had issues getting the books from the printer to amazon. They wanted the author to buy the books, not actual stores! I too canceled two television appearances because I was so heartbroken and did not want their name getting any positive attention.

I wrote a couple sloppy books after that (sloppy as I was still learning the craft and they had plot issues.) and then I couldn't do it. After I finished that one I was just getting ready to send a letter to PA saying they'd won. The second book was due to come out, I'd done everything I could, I'd refused to do edits saying there was no point to it when they wrote me out of the blue with two contract releases.

It's ironic but after fighting and fighting for all those years at the contract release I was so broken I just couldn't even bear to write anymore. I was sapped. I couldn't get even two pages into a new book. It was then a friend of mine suggested I try writing my first book as a script. It was a safe medium because I didn't have any negative experiences with it. I have since started making money as a script writer, not much but a little. A heck of a lot more than I ever did with PA.

It took me almost 3 years since my release to write a book again. It's in a writing contest so we'll see where it goes.

Anyway the point of my post is, I feel your pain. I killed two entire series because of them. Someday I might go back to them and see what I can salvage, but for now the wound is just too raw.

WTG

I am not sure if you still post on here Mr Macumber, lol but how is it going? I miss ya!