Chloroform, ether or neither?

Mama Bro · Dec 30, 2008

Hi all,
I'm finishing up the second book in a YA series and my fifteen-year-old main character gets snatched up by the bad guys. She's in the front seat of a car. Someone in the back seat covers her face with a cloth that has a substance on it which renders her unconscious. I'm thinking chloroform, but don't know enough about it to know it it's practical or not. She only needs to be unconscious for a short time - maybe 20 minutes. Any suggestions?

waylander · Dec 31, 2008

Both were used as early anaesthetics but your MC has to breathe it in deeply for several breaths - much longer than is depicted in movies where people are knocked out with a chloroformed handkerchief.

petec · Dec 31, 2008

Chloroform is quicker acting than ether but longer lasting. As waylander says both take several breaths and your MC would struggle some with a cloth over her face

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/misc/chloroform.html

"In fulfilling all these indications, the employment of chloroform evidently offers great and decided advantages in rapidity, facility, and efficiency over the employment of ether. When used for surgical purposes, I would advise it to be given upon a handkerchief, gathered up into a cuplike form in the hand of the exhibitor, and the open end of the cup placed over the nose and mouth of the patient. For the first inspiration or two it shoudl be held at a distance of an inch or so from the face, and them more and more closely applied to it. To insure a full and perfect anæ sthetic effect -- more especially when the operation is to be sever -- a tea-spoonful of the chloroform shoudl at once be placed upon the hollow of the handkerchief, and immediately held to the face of the patient. Generally, a snoring sleep very speedily supervenes; and when it does, it is a perfect test of the superinduction of complete insensibility. But many patients are quite anæ sthetic without this symptom."

The date of the article is interesting

I don't know the exact statistics on how long it takes to pass out from chloroform or how long it takes to recover, but here's some general guidelines. If you used enough chloroform (i.e. on a rag) and concentrated on inhaling it, you'd probably be pretty confused and then unconscious in a matter of minutes (modern inhalational anesthetics take less than a minute to act), so probably less than 15 minutes. Old anesthetics like chloroform aren't as "clean" acting, so they may take longer than modern ones. Also, you don't feel too great when you wake up -- more like nauseated, maybe vomiting, with a headache and cloudy mind. The chloroform will stay active as long as the person's breathing it. As for recovery time, you'd probably start coming out in 15 to 30 minutes, give or take a few minutes.

Red-Green · Dec 31, 2008

Yes, ether actually takes a while to knock you out. And I've tried it, as a stupid teenager with access to a variety of veterinary chemicals. My sisters and I thought it would be a cool way to get high, and it is, but it takes almost 15 minutes to get a serious dose and as Petec mentions, we felt like crap afterward.

veinglory · Dec 31, 2008

Both are fairly dangerous to health and even life. IMHO is would bve more realistic to restrain a person physically than chemically. No inhalant anaesthetics are particulalry fast acting and all are rather dangerous.

ColoradoGuy · Dec 31, 2008

Veinglory's correct. Chloroform is the more dangerous of the two, though. Ether induces a fairly reliable anesthetic state but, as others have said, it takes several minutes to reach unconsciousness in most people. This is because, although it only takes a few breaths of the pure agent in gas form, someone breathing through a wet sponge is entraining quite a bit of air along with the vapor, and the liquid ether on the sponge needs first to evaporate into gas form to work.

Cyia · Dec 31, 2008

An injected chemical would work a lot faster. Maybe a strong muscle relaxer rather than a sedative?

veinglory · Dec 31, 2008

To work fairly fast it would need to be intravenous injection--not ideal with a struggling teen.

Mama Bro · Dec 31, 2008

Hey, thanks so much, everybody, for you quick responses. I've already written the scene and it's first person in Allie's (my protagonist) POV. But, at some point, I'll have to tie up loose ends and explain what knocked the poor girl out. I hadn't thought of an injection. Really like that idea but, as Veinglory said, it might be hard to jab it in the right place. You've given me a lot of ideas. This is book two in the YA Unbidden Magic series published by Bell Bridge Books, an imprint of Belle Books. The first in the series was Moonstone. Visit me at www.marileebrothers.com.
Thanks again.

cbenoi1 · Jan 2, 2009

A strong hand with the fingers applying pressure on the carotids does a nice job, assuming someone else takes care of the free limbs. Leads to unconciousness within 5 - 10 seconds. Also called a carotid sleeper or chokehold. Used in some martial arts.

-cb

smcc360 · Jan 2, 2009

Isoflurane. It works quickly, nobody knows what it is (so if you get caught with it, you can tell them it's for cleaning toilets or something), and it's difficult to trace (the patent on it has expired, which means it's so cheap that you can get it by breaking into any veterinarian's office). The choice of creeps everywhere.

The chokehold that cbenoi1 suggested is better, though, because it leaves no trace at all.

Mama Bro · Jan 2, 2009

smcc 360, tell me more about isoflurane. Would it be used as an injectable or an inhalant?
cbnoi1, how long would a sleeper hold last? I need to have her unconscious for about 20 minutes.

cbenoi1 · Jan 2, 2009

> cbnoi1, how long would a sleeper hold last? I need to have
> her unconscious for about 20 minutes.

For a few minutes maybe. Enough to securely jab a seringe with better stuff. But probably not all the way to 20 minutes.

Maybe inventing a name such as Dextrometafluranol would do the trick. Only a handful of readers will actually spend time looking it up on the net to see if it exists. Reminds me, I'm still trying to pinpoint Hogwarts on a UK map. Pointers anyone?

-cb

Palmfrond · Jan 2, 2009

Isoflurane is a liquid. It has to evaporate and then be inhaled (like ether and choroform).

veinglory · Jan 2, 2009

It would still have a lag time, even in a calm small animal it can take a minute or more to have anesthetic effects.

Mama Bro · Jan 2, 2009

Okey dokey. How would this work? First the sleeper hold, then the isoflorane saturated rag held over her face. Oooeee! Do we have a winner?

veinglory · Jan 3, 2009

What is true of chloroform is equally true of isoflurance, halothane etc. They are just a more modern form of the same basic principle.

ColoradoGuy · Jan 3, 2009

There's really no getting around the fact that the only immediately acting anesthetic agents need to be intravenous -- injected into a vein. The standard choices for those would be thiopental or propofol. Both of these also usually slow down or stop breathing. Ketamine (a dissociative anesthetic related to LSD) can be given intramuscularly -- jabbed into a large muscle in the arm or the leg -- but it takes several minutes to work when given that way. Breathing usually is preserved with ketamine, though.

RJK · Jan 7, 2009

A stun gun (Tazer) held against the victim for several seconds would render the person helpless long enough to inject. I use this method (stun gun followed by ketamine intramuscular injection) in my current WIP.

Mama Bro · Jan 8, 2009

Thank you all very much for your suggestions. A tazer would seem like the thing to use, but since I used it in another book of mine, I wanted to do something different. Here's what I decided: The bad guy rears up from behind the front seat and puts Allie in a sleeper hold. When she starts to black out, he jabs her in the arm with a needle (ketamine). From what I've read, ketamine can cause hallucinations which fits in perfectly with my story since she is then locked in a closet. (Poor girl! I've got to get her out of there) During the night, she's not sure if she's having nightmares or hallucinations. I appreciate all your comments. Book, as yet unnamed, will be out in April from Bell Bridge. Thanks again.

Calixus · Jan 9, 2009

Hey all!

This is for future reference. Propofol that was mentioned by ColoradoGuy is a great drug for knocking people out, works very quickly, but it reverses just as quickly. The person would be groggy for a few minutes then would be able to function with near normal capabilities. It also takes a constant drip versus a single injection, and if the person is big enough would need rather large amounts. I use this frequently with patients that are on ventilators and that is another down side. Propofol tends to depress respirations, and if not supported the person could slowly suffocate. Just thought you would want to know. Also, most intermuscular injections take up to 30 minutes to actually work (depends on weight of patient, age, circulatory status, whether they are struggling which would speed it up or unconscious which might slow it down, etc.)

And there are signs of choke holds if they are held for any length of time, such as narrowing of the Caratoid Arteries at the site of the hold, possible crush injury to the voice box if done improperly, possible cervical spine injury, etc. More food for thought.

Chloroform, ether or neither?

Mama Bro

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

petec

Lurking

Red-Green

KoalaKoalaKoala!

veinglory

volitare nequeo

ColoradoGuy

I've seen worse.

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Mama Bro

cbenoi1

smcc360

I've Got An MFA In LEO

Mama Bro

cbenoi1

Palmfrond

cereal killer

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Mama Bro

veinglory

volitare nequeo

ColoradoGuy

I've seen worse.

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

Mama Bro

Calixus

OMG! What'd you say then??