What if your novel amounts to

Uh...sell it to the literary types. The love stale!

Or inject some more pulse and action but try not to compromise the heart of it. I'm a firm believer that you can put across a profound and important message JUST as well with literary foof as you can with werewolf talk show host romance novels.

I actually have a neat little proof of concept for this! The two novels Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison and For the Emperor by Sandy Mitchell basically have the same idea of a man who is thought of one way by almost everyone they meet and how this forces the man to become what the others thought they were.

Except For The Emperor had a witty, funny and sarcastic narrator, laser guns, psychics and chainsaw swords.

Guess which one I re-read?

cursedsillycause said:

merely a loose chain of events? There's a message, but it's lost in words that amount to nothing. Your story has depth, but the pulse is missing. It's static. Some may interpret it as profound--others may think of it as dry, and stale.

What do you do?

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I would be extremely worried about such a piece of writing. If somebody reads it, and feels like it doesn't amount to a 'larger picture' by the end of the story, they will feel cheated and ferociously angry.

-Travis

Then sell it to that bracket. I'm not going to be selling my bubble gum cybernetic romance story to literary types, you should sell your existential doodad to the bubblegum crowd.

Easy peasy.

I'd worry about limiting my audience to too small a group. Not everyone in that group is going to read the book.

Best advice I can come up with is to craft a stronger plot. But first, make sure you know what your plot is. If you can't state the entire plot (or story, your pick) in five or fewer words, you probably don't know what you're doing.

And if you need examples from popular f/sf novels, I can provide some...

It would mean that you need to re-write the book with a thematic level. Books have (or should have) at least 3 levels of writing, the action/dramatic level, the emotional/psychological, or the thematic/deeper meaning level. All good writing from plays, short stories, essays, novels etc., usually can survive as good if they reach the reader at these 3 levels. The good news is that the missing "meaning" is the easiest thing to insert after the fact, but you have to figure out what your novel "means" so you have to analyze it.

It is a loose chain of events, then you probably have not used basic story construction. This is not some recent marketing tool, it is the 3000 year old rhetorical model that all literature is based on. There is a specific way to write a middle and an end, and the middle of the novel is a seres of conflicts and resolutions based on the decision of the character according to his or her character makeup. If you have a laundry list novel, what could happen is that it will never get published. Even post-post modern literature is based on the basic Greek model of story construction, and the idea of conflict and resolution.

cursedsillycause said:

merely a loose chain of events? There's a message, but it's lost in words that amount to nothing. Your story has depth, but the pulse is missing. It's static. Some may interpret it as profound--others may think of it as dry, and stale.

What do you do?

Click to expand...

My first thought on this is, read just about anything by Mark Twain.

My second thought: if a publisher thinks it's a worthy read, then what is all the fuss about?

My third thought: Write the d@mned book.

Throw in some boobs, explosions and a spunky sidekick.

seun said:

Throw in some boobs, explosions and a spunky sidekick.

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I'd read that!

cursedsillycause said:

merely a loose chain of events? There's a message,

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The problem may lie right there. In those words.

'There's a message', you say, telling me what the WIP does well.
Conventional wisdom is, if you want to send a message, use Western Union.

Fiction is story. Not theme, not plot, not message.
(... unless this is 'literary fiction', in which case it doesn't need a story but should probably have a tattooed man who eats kittens or something.)

Story is,

Michael Kensington learns to take responsibility for his actions and goes back to Minnesota to free an innocent man and serve time in prison.

Betsy Lou forgives Spencer for being a drunk and takes him back. Her love and his courage reform him.

Billy Benton outwits the Forces of Evil and turns the nuclear bomb off before it takes out Manhattan.


You need a 'before' for your protagonist, a 'final result' for your protag where he is different and has achieved something, and a middle that takes him from one place to another.
Plot is the 'chain of events' that leads him from the 'before' state to the 'final' state.

So.
Leaving aside how well the message is delivered ...
what is the 'story' you've written and is your chain of events the best way to tell that story?

To quote Louis B. Mayer, "If you want to send a message, call Western Union."

Tell a good story with interesting characters overcoming obstacles, and give your readers a couple of good eyeball kicks to keep them awake and turning pages.

Is your book the kind you see on the shelves at the store? Does it entertain or do you want to teach a lesson? You can do both, but moral lessons can be disguised by a deft hand.

I read for pleasure and more often than not get a lesson out of a well-written, character-driven story than the ones where the intent to teach something overwhelms everything else.

For instance, To Kill a Mockingbird has solid themes against racism and ignorance, and the importance of tolerance and family, but the characters and how events unfold dominate the writing. Had Harper Lee ignored the characters for teaching people a lesson her book would never have amounted to anything. To this day I love and read that book, but my old text books are coated in dust.

I'm just sayin' ...

I have to admit I find your question frustrating, as you are not actually asking for advice, but seeking validation on the type of book you are writing. You aren't concerned that the book may come across as stale to some, but rather proud of that fact. There is nothing wrong with that, but I'm afraid all the answers you are now going to get are: "Worry about the bracket you are writing for, don't try to please everyone, just write your book."

My concern from your initial post was that you might have serious flaws in the structure of your writing that would not appeal even to the most literary existential audiences. But your second post suggests it's just fine and you have no desire to fix it. So all I can give you is reassurance, that if you like your work, think it will speak to people, then don't worry about the naysayers. Even if you are writing for a small audience, it doesn't matter. Write for whomever you want, and do it with passion!

Good luck!

Do you have a market, however small? Only the market can say.

If you haven't done so already, start querying agents interested in fiction like yours. See the Query Hell forum on Share Your Work for help on generating the punchiest query possible.

If you get no bites on your query, you might try submitting directly to the small presses.

If nobody bites, yeah, you probably don't have a big enough audience for publishers to take you on. Fix the novel or trunk it and move on.

Toothpaste said:

I have to admit I find your question frustrating, as you are not actually asking for advice, but seeking validation on the type of book you are writing. You aren't concerned that the book may come across as stale to some, but rather proud of that fact. There is nothing wrong with that, but I'm afraid all the answers you are now going to get are: "Worry about the bracket you are writing for, don't try to please everyone, just write your book."

My concern from your initial post was that you might have serious flaws in the structure of your writing that would not appeal even to the most literary existential audiences. But your second post suggests it's just fine and you have no desire to fix it. So all I can give you is reassurance, that if you like your work, think it will speak to people, then don't worry about the naysayers. Even if you are writing for a small audience, it doesn't matter. Write for whomever you want, and do it with passion!

Good luck!

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I'd like to echo Toothpaste's advice. She said better what I was thinking. Also, be careful about coming off as avant garde and haughty in your decisions to write to a niche. Being purposefully clever about stuff like that doesn't float well with some.

seun said:

Throw in some boobs, explosions and a spunky sidekick.

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You'll need to tighten this up a bit, there's simply too much going on. May I suggest a spunky sidekick with exploding boobs?

My first thought on readng the original post was that with no plot you simply won't have any agent or publisher interested, and if you self-pub and force your granny to read it at gun point, she'll pretend.

Themes, ideas, messages... there are the grocery items we buy. How many and how delicious they are can elevate your novel above all others. But without the basket that is plot, your messages and themes lay scattered across the parking lot, kicked by little kids and run over by busy parents in their minivans.

cursedsillycause said:

merely a loose chain of events? There's a message, but it's lost in words that amount to nothing. Your story has depth, but the pulse is missing. It's static. Some may interpret it as profound--others may think of it as dry, and stale.

What do you do?

Click to expand...

Write the next thing.

You know what I say? If you're happy with it then hell with everyone else. If it doesn't matter to you how narrow your market is, and you feel satisfied you've put your best effort into making a statement you feel needed to be made, then you've got nothing to worry about.

If, however, you aren't satisfied, if you want to reach a broader market, then it looks like you've got another draft or two ahead of you.

Like Seun implied, maybe all it needs is some gratuitous sex.

Cursed, if it works, then sell it to the market it works for. However, if it is merely a case of the writer having a case of Golden Word Syndrome and needing to make themselves feel better about their writing by proclaiming, "you just don't get my genius," then the writer needs to get over themselves, take a step back, and figure out what isn't working about the story and how to make it work. This may involve scrapping the story they're working on and writing a different story or two or three or four.

While everyone has different tastes, stating that something isn't "just for any reader," smacks of elitism and snobbery.

Actually, UseHerName, genre writers are usually more than adept at writing to a structure, despite your strangely disturbing comment. Judging from the thread you started about structure, I'd venture to guess that this is your pet hobbyhorse and you're determined to ride it until it's dead. However, I'd be very leery of dismissing genre writers quite that expeditiously if I were you.

I'd also like to pass on a wee bit of advice: it doesn't how much structure your story has if the story sucks. Period. Whether you're writing to some perceived elite in the reading public as the OP apparently is, or whether you're some genre hack who combines the Hero's Journey with a schematic stolen directly from playwriting (like, oh, me for example) if the story isn't compelling all of the structure in the world isn't going to help your story and it doesn't matter how loud and long you bemoan the plebian tastes of the publishing industry. Story is key.

Cursed, write the story that you are compelled to write--with the purpose of keeping the story entertaining and fresh. Don't worry about who your audience is--that doesn't matter two beans unless you're contracted and looking for a marketing demographic. If the story can stand on its own, and provide entertainment to your audience, all of those matters will take care of themselves. Just write the book.

.

Use Her Name said:

Excuse me but all the "stories" you cited have a message-- .

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Well ... yes.
(insert icon of puzzlement here)

I picked three 'stories' that also had a message.
The point I was, subtly, making was that good stories generally have both message and story.

If I had come up with three stories that had no message, the O.P. might have thought 'story' and 'message' did not work and play well together.

Use Her Name said:

Fiction stories all have themes, and all have plots. .

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OK.
Yes.

Use Her Name said:

The only difference between literature and genre fiction is that literature is usually written by a master writer who often takes risks no genre writer would try-- Genre is written to a list of publication rules generally provided by the publisher or a how to write book, and yes, there is "experimental" literature.

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Hmmmm ...

Literary Fiction Writer: Proud, free master artist, unafraid to take tremendous risks.

Genre Writer: Talentless hack and stooge of the commercial pulp fiction establishment, pusillanimously following cookie-cutter instructions


Weeellll .....
I have to disagree with that assessment.

I'd say the woods are full of damn fine writers who produce Westerns, Romances, Mysteries, Science Fiction. Erotica, Action-adventure, Fantasy, Woman's Fiction and other genre works.


The lasting merit of these genre works can be seen by the sale of Westerns, Romances, Mysteries, Horror, S.F. etc., in print, at Amazon, thirty, fifty, and a hundred years after their copyright.
Austen, Lovecraft, Sayers, Christie, Collins, Mitchell, Grey, Shelley, Heinlein, Doyle, Asimov, Chandler ... there's no end to the list. These examples of pure unabashed genre delight generation after generation.


That is not to knock 'Literary Fiction'. There are, without doubt, hundreds of experimental, literary works of fiction, that do not 'tell a story' but are also listed at Amazon, also in print decade after decade, that renew themselves to an excited and voracious readership with each passing year.

I've split out the Literary and Genre discussion to its own thread.

If the events feel loose, squeeze them together to tighten the whole thing.

Kindling.

caw