Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

maestrowork · Oct 31, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Hmmm? I rather doubt it's a Regency. I think the Queen element is a bit strong for that.

Ah, well.

Meanwhile, here's a quiz for everyone: What kind of Regency Heroine are you?

O Lord. I balked at the first question. I guess I'll never be a famous Regency Romance writer... rats!

pepperlandgirl · Nov 1, 2005

Dredging up long forgotten books from my memory, the passage looks like Victoria Holt. The mention of the peacock fan makes me think it's The India Fan

*checks Amazon*

Heh, I'm right. I must have read that book 10 or 12 years ago...I guess it made an impression. That, and I devoured every single Victoria Holt novel I could find when I was around 12...

Avalon · Nov 1, 2005

azbikergirl, I got exactly the same response on that quiz that you did!

James D. Macdonald · Nov 1, 2005

Avalon said:
azbikergirl, I got exactly the same response on that quiz that you did!

So did I.

(As a writer I'm in touch with my feminine side.)

Lilybiz · Nov 2, 2005

Bookish

Hi everyone,

I just want to let you know I'm here.

I'm the same kind of Regency heroine as Azbikergirl, Uncle Jim and Avalon. Perhaps we're all a bit bookish, eh?

It has been my self-imposed rule that I wasn't allowed to contribute until I'd read this thread from beginning to, well, here. I've loved reading every word and I hope it never ends.

Thank you, Uncle Jim, for being a straight-forward, generous teacher. My WIP is two-thirds of the way through its second draft, thanks to my beta readers, BIC and you. Your precision and care are inspirational.

Here's my dumb question: After completing the first draft, in my ignorance I thought it would be a good idea to copyright my novel before mailing out copies to my beta readers. So now my novel is copyrighted 2002, but it probably won't be completed until 2006.

Do I just not mention this until I have an agent or publisher interested? Is it simple enough to simply sell/give them the copyright, or have I unnecessarily complicated things? I hope I don't have to change the title because I love my title (I know, I know, they're just going to change it anyway).

Thank you all again. I love this thread! Feels all homey and cozy.

brinkett · Nov 2, 2005

aertep said:
I'm the same kind of Regency heroine as Azbikergirl, Uncle Jim and Avalon.

So am I. Is it rigged? Is anyone a different type of heroine?

James D. Macdonald · Nov 2, 2005

Welcome, aertep.

The copyright problem -- well, you're going to re-write the book several times, after you hear back from your beta readers, after you've left it in your desk drawer for a couple of months, and so forth and so on.

It may be a substantially different work by the time you're done.

Heck, after it's sold -- one of mine, the editor didn't like the characters' names. What happened? We worked out different names because you know what? He had a point.

Please don't put the copyright notice on the manuscript when you start sending it around. After it's sold ... then you can be honest with your editor and mention this detail. The editor will *facepalm*, and it'll all be over.

I've mentioned why copyrighting your book in advance is a poor plan. No need to angst about it now. Remember for your next book. (You are working on a "next book," right?)

Lilybiz · Nov 2, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Please don't put the copyright notice on the manuscript when you start sending it around. After it's sold ... then you can be honest with your editor and mention this detail. The editor will *facepalm*, and it'll all be over.

I've mentioned why copyrighting your book in advance is a poor plan. No need to angst about it now. Remember for your next book. (You are working on a "next book," right?)

Thanks, I'm reassured.

Yes, I'm working on my next book, though I admit it's in the "notes on scraps" stage, which in my routine comes way before the "typed outline" stage.

SeanDSchaffer · Nov 2, 2005

Forgive me for asking, but....

James D. Macdonald said:
Snipped....

The editor will *facepalm*, and it'll all be over.

....Snipped.

Uncle Jim, what does 'Facepalm' mean? I don't think I've ever heard that term before.

Thanks in advance.

:Coffee:

pepperlandgirl · Nov 2, 2005

brinkett said:
So am I. Is it rigged? Is anyone a different type of heroine?

I'm the Arranged Marriage heroine, which fits, because the arranged marriage is my number one historical romance guilty pleasure...

James D. Macdonald · Nov 3, 2005

"Facepalm" is the act of burying your face in the palm of your hand. It's a gesture of despair, a bit more emphatic than merely pinching the bridge of your nose and shaking your head.

You'll find a lovely use of "facepalm" with examples from context here: Troy in Fifteen Minutes

jules · Nov 3, 2005

Kind of like this: :Smack:

SeanDSchaffer · Nov 3, 2005

I see. That makes sense. I'll try to remember not to put a copyright notice on my manuscripts anymore, when I send them to publishers to be considered. The fact I have put one on every manuscript I've sent out, registered or not, over the last several years, could be a major reason I'm not properly published yet.

Thanks.

Berry · Nov 3, 2005

SeanDSchaffer said:
The fact I have put one on every manuscript I've sent out, registered or not, over the last several years, could be a major reason I'm not properly published yet.

I wouldn't say a "major" reason, but it's one of a number of minor reasons that can add up to a rejection. A major reason would be you are subliterate (clearly not the case with you), use red ink on purple paper, threaten the editor, or lie about your credentials.

Minor reasons would be: Cover letter addressed "To whom it may concern", a copyright notice, Times font instead of Courier, and so on.

If you have a terrific story that makes people want to flip the pages, you can overcome a few minor gaffes in the submission package. If not, nothing will help.

Sharon Mock · Nov 4, 2005

I don't even need to take the quiz to know I'd get Bookish.

Sigh...

SeanDSchaffer · Nov 4, 2005

Berry said:
I wouldn't say a "major" reason, but it's one of a number of minor reasons that can add up to a rejection. A major reason would be you are subliterate (clearly not the case with you), use red ink on purple paper, threaten the editor, or lie about your credentials.

Minor reasons would be: Cover letter addressed "To whom it may concern", a copyright notice, Times font instead of Courier, and so on.

If you have a terrific story that makes people want to flip the pages, you can overcome a few minor gaffes in the submission package. If not, nothing will help.

Good point, Berry. Thanks!

:Sun:

Andrew Jameson · Nov 4, 2005

Uncle Jim:

Question about this recent post of yours over in the NEPAT. The post was in response to a posted quote from Writers Digest:

Agent Lori Perkins of the L. Perkins Agency in New York says it's much easier to market a first-time novelist's book if the word count falls between 80,000 and 100,000 words, or roughly 300 double-spaced, typed pages--the average novel length.

One-third of the novels that come into the agency are rejected because they're too long or short, (Perkins says), "The cost greatly increases on books larger than 100,000, so agents and publishers are less likely to gamble on a manuscript the size of a dictionary."

You go on to explain publishing economics, in particular showing the difference between a 100,000 word and 120,000 word novel.
So, my question is: my current fantasy WIP is clocking in at 107,000 words and change. This is after multiple edits that reduced the word count, and I feel reasonably comfortable that everything in the book deserves to be there. Should I be alarmed? 107,000 isn't that much more than 100,000, but then 120,000 isn't that much more than 100,000 either.

jules · Nov 4, 2005

Is that 107k a word processor count, or a 250-words-per-page count? If the former, what's the latter?

Also, the target word count really depends very much on the publisher. I recently read a post by Jim Baen on the Baen Bar that suggested strongly they're looking for a minimum of 100k these days, not a maximum.

James D. Macdonald · Nov 4, 2005

7,000 words ... just wait 'til you've been edited. Those can evaporate. Really. You'd be surprised.

Don't sweat it. As long as you're within ballpark of the publisher's guidelines, you'll do fine.

Andrew Jameson · Nov 4, 2005

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I was having visions of being helplessly adrift above the word-count cutoff point, and I honestly hadn't considered the potential for wordcount reduction in editing.

Jules: 107,000 is the word processor word count. Page count is 538 (Courier 12 point, 1" margins, 24 lines/page).

ted_curtis · Nov 5, 2005

Andrew Jameson said:
Jules: 107,000 is the word processor word count. Page count is 538 (Courier 12 point, 1" margins, 24 lines/page).

So if they use 25 lines of Courrier with one inch margins, that's equal to 516 pages. At 250 words/page, that's 129,000 words.

I did the same thing with my novel, and the 65,000 words suddenly became 87,000. That's a lot of word-inflation.

Someone let me know if I did the calculation wrong.

Ted

Lilybiz · Nov 5, 2005

ted_curtis said:
So if they use 25 lines of Courrier with one inch margins, that's equal to 516 pages. At 250 words/page, that's 129,000 words.

I did the same thing with my novel, and the 65,000 words suddenly became 87,000. That's a lot of word-inflation.

Someone let me know if I did the calculation wrong.

Ted

Me too, please. That formula just added 15,000 (nonexistent) words to my WIP.

Petrea

HConn · Nov 5, 2005

"Word count" is a measure of the amount of space your book will take up on the page.

If you use one-inch margins, Courier 12 and so on, you should have about 60 characters per line. Since a "word" is five characters with one space, that's ten "words" per line.

That means this exchange:

------------------------

"Lutefisk?"

"No."

"Sure?"

"Absolutely."

-------------------------

is actually worth 40 words, because of all the white space those one-word lines will take up on a page. That's the professional way to do it.

It's not live or die, though. Take four or five minutes to calculate your word count in different way, then pick the number that you like best.

Lilybiz · Nov 5, 2005

HConn said:
"Word count" is a measure of the amount of space your book will take up on the page.

If you use one-inch margins, Courier 12 and so on, you should have about 60 characters per line. Since a "word" is five characters with one space, that's ten "words" per line.

That means this exchange:

------------------------

"Lutefisk?"

"No."

"Sure?"

"Absolutely."

-------------------------

is actually worth 40 words, because of all the white space those one-word lines will take up on a page. That's the professional way to do it.

It's not live or die, though. Take four or five minutes to calculate your word count in different way, then pick the number that you like best.

Ah, thank you HConn, I think this is becoming clear. The publisher isn't really interested in how many words there are in the manuscript. If I have two books and one is entirely short snippets of dialogue and the other is entirely descriptive paragraphs, it doesn't matter. If they're both 300 pages long, 1 inch margins, courier 12, to the publisher they are the same length, containing the same number of words.

Is that correct?

SeanDSchaffer · Nov 5, 2005

HConn said:
"Word count" is a measure of the amount of space your book will take up on the page.

If you use one-inch margins, Courier 12 and so on, you should have about 60 characters per line. Since a "word" is five characters with one space, that's ten "words" per line.

That means this exchange:

------------------------

"Lutefisk?"

"No."

"Sure?"

"Absolutely."

-------------------------

is actually worth 40 words, because of all the white space those one-word lines will take up on a page. That's the professional way to do it.

It's not live or die, though. Take four or five minutes to calculate your word count in different way, then pick the number that you like best.

Really? I never could figure out how they came up with that.

I'm going to make a calculation real quick.

My margins, presently, are 1.5 inches.
Courier New, Point Size 10
27 lines per page (Because of the smaller point size)
All I have to figure out now is how many characters per line....

I'll be back in a couple minutes.

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Fear the Death Ray

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Linda J. Daly

Your Genial Uncle

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SeanDSchaffer

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