Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

azbikergirl said:

It seems the straight chronological order would be easiest.

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Easy isn't always better, you know .

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

It sounds like you might have two novels there, rather than two parts of one novel. For an example, see Ben Bova's "Moonrise" and "Moonwar".

scribbler1382 said:

It sounds like you might have two novels there, rather than two parts of one novel. For an example, see Ben Bova's "Moonrise" and "Moonwar".

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You know, I was playing with that idea, too. I started writing the dad's part, intending a short story, but it could become a novel. It'd take some re-thinking though -- not enough conflict.

help with dashes in dialog exchange

Hey all!

I learned that when you have one character interrupting another, you use emdashes at the end of the place of interruption for both characters, thus:

JoeBob said, "I hate Mama's--"

"--Don't talk about Mam's cooking!" Jim put a finger to his lips.

I'm doing final copy edit on my novel, and can't find any CMS or other reference to the second emdash. Is this something I picked up from screenwriting? CMS only talks about interrupted speech, not the interrupting speech. Can anyone clue me in?

MystiAnne said:

Hey all!

I learned that when you have one character interrupting another, you use emdashes at the end of the place of interruption for both characters, thus:

JoeBob said, "I hate Mama's--"

"--Don't talk about Mam's cooking!" Jim put a finger to his lips.

I'm doing final copy edit on my novel, and can't find any CMS or other reference to the second emdash. Is this something I picked up from screenwriting? CMS only talks about interrupted speech, not the interrupting speech. Can anyone clue me in?

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I can't quote rhyme and verse but I'm fairly certain you don't use anything on the interrupting speech. You only indicate that the first person was interrupted and that dialogue ends before it normally would. Since the interrupting speech is the beginning of a sentence, it simply begins.

To further indicate the interruption, you might switch the interruption thus:

Jim jabbed a finger to his lips saying, "Hey, don't talk about Mam's cooking!"

Good luck.

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

I am sure I haven't seen leading dashes to indicate an interrupting speech, or to indicate anything else either. The interrupted speech implies that the following sentence or act interrupted it, so you don't really need to indicate it.

- Paritosh

Thanks to all for 'interrupting speech' info!

I pulled all the "answering" em dashes, thanks to you both for the info!

I turned in my thesis this morning, my 205 page novel "Strong Flower."

whew. 2.5 years of hard work, packed up and gone...

whew. 2.5 years of hard work, packed up and gone...

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Now start your next novel.

Today.

Yes, really.

-----------

Meanwhile, on the em-dash question: As long as you're consistent and don't confuse the readers ... you can go with anything you want. Really. Go look at Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier for some bizarre punctuation if you don't believe me.

It's just that the farther outside of normal (for some values of "normal") you get, the farther over into the genius range (for some values of "genius") you have to be.

James D. Macdonald said:

It's just that the farther outside of normal (for some values of "normal") you get, the farther over into the genius range (for some values of "genius") you have to be.

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LOL. As someone well below any value of "genius", I guess I'll stay well within the range of "normal" for punctuation.

Ah, V. Woolf has some of the most puzzling punctuation choices in Mrs. Dalloway that I've ever seen. It's just a convention from screenwriting that hasn't caught on yet, so I pulled it for the thesis--but there's more work to do before Strong Flower gets pitched to agents, so I *might* put them back

I'm the opposite of genius with commas and colons and semi-colons, so I don't want to stray too far off the convetional path without GREAT reasons...

The Truthiest Truth of All

The Unstrung Harp.

And buy a copy, too.

And for some odd reason, I still want to write novels...

James D. Macdonald said:

The Unstrung Harp. And buy a copy, too.

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One of our instructors bought each of us a copy after a great class. I love Gorey

azbikergirl said:

I've started a SF novel which spans about 30 years. I want to start with one character and his discovery. Then he has a child, who is oddly affected by his discovery. As she grows older, he's intrigued with this anomaly and spends some time investigating. But everything doesn't really come to a head until after she's an adult, at which point she becomes the main character.

I was thinking to divide it into two parts, with dad as the MC in part 1, and daughter as MC in part 2. The alternative is to make it all the daughter's story and drop in the bits about dad's early discovery as I find opportunities. Am I making this too complicated? It seems the straight chronological order would be easiest.

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You know, the first thing your synopsis made me think of was Sara Maitlan's Three Times Table, a novel spanning three generations in the persons of mother, grandmother, and granddaughter. The tale is more or less chronological, the three characters taking turns being the third-person-limited narrator, each with extensive flashbacks. Maitlan obviously didn't feel the need to pick one narrator for the one story; she performs an excellent juggling act, I think. (I also love this novel because it's probably my first exposure to something that could honestly be called "magic realism" without actually being Latin American.)

There's any number of books out there that change narrators between chapters or between "parts." You may not want to attempt the juggle for your first novel, but then (looks at WIP, which developed a second narrator at the end of Part One) I'm not standing on any sort of sturdy collection of legs to make that kind of advice.

azbikergirl said:

I've started a SF novel which spans about 30 years. I want to start with one character and his discovery. Then he has a child, who is oddly affected by his discovery. ... But everything doesn't really come to a head until after she's an adult, at which point she becomes the main character.

I was thinking to divide it into two parts, with dad as the MC in part 1, and daughter as MC in part 2. The alternative is to make it all the daughter's story and drop in the bits about dad's early discovery as I find opportunities.

Click to expand...

Look at it this way: What are you trying to say with the story? What's the primary theme ("story-question," if you prefer) that you want to use the story to explore?

Once you figure that out, it'll probably be easier to figure out where to start and what to include.

For example, with the above setup, if I wanted to explore the story-question "How far will a person go to overcome her heredity and become the person she wants to be?" it would suggest one starting point. If I wanted to explore "How much does nature matter when compared to nurture?" it'd be a second; "Should the sins of the father be visited upon the son?" would be a third, and "If the aliens came to visit, what would they really care about?" would be a fourth.

What question catches your fancy enough to motivate you to spend the next year exploring it?

James,

I finished my first novel several weeks ago, and I want to thank you. Assuming I am successful at selling my book (and yes, I am assuming that--my amazing ego is overshadowed only slightly by my incredible talent, or vice versa) you may include me in your list of previous students who have gone on to do well at their craft.

I am a fan of fantasy and science fiction, but my own stories are literary fiction. This thread has lifted the discussion far beyond the boundaries of the genres where you are best known. Your presentation here of writing as a craft and a skill-set, your tradesman's approach to the work and the language, and your honesty about the business and art of writing have, for me, elevated this thread into lofty company. Along with Stephen King's On Writing, and Strunk and White's Elements of Style, I place Learn Writing With Uncle Jim on the list of written works that deserve credit for getting me past having a great book in my head to having a great book on paper. You are an excellent teacher, and an inspiration.

Thank You.

Congratulations, Mark

Well, that last post is certainly a hard act to follow, which is no doubt responsible for the long Pinteresque pause in the thread.

So instead I'll say Congratulations! and offer up a toast from all the rest of us.
:Cheers:

This is certainly cause for celebration!

Congrats, Mark, you're a really gracious person for saying those things. Unc James is always fun to take along on the writing trail. You can always go back in the archives and find yourself, struggling with those same questions. You can bet the many, many novels have been written on account of Jim's expertise and direction.

Once again, party down--it's well-deserved!

Tri

Sorry, I didn't intend to become a thread killer. Thank you Mr. Underhill and Triceratops. The work is a party, and I have partied my widdle asp off for the last 6 months.

I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Uncle Jim helped me with my art, and now he is helping me with my business. Not many people can help with both.

Jim & Co.,

I have a question about query letters.

Among my first readers are two magazine editors, and a published playwright (one of his adaptations is very well-known). Do you think I should include a paragraph saying that these professionals have read my work and what they liked about it? I believe it is good marketing, but I'm not sure if it is good form.

What is your opinion?

Mark, IMHO leave out the refrences. Agents will judge your Query on writing style and content. I don't think they care who read it. If I'm mistaken many apologies.

I've heard conflicting advice from agents at workshops/conferences. Donald Maase, for instance, is only interested in the story. Others, however, want to know if you've attended workshops or won any contests or been recommended by a publishing professional.

My guess is that unless the magazine editors' and playwright's names are well known to the agent or publisher, I'd leave them out. If they don't know the reputation of your reviewers, it's no better than saying your mom liked it. And they probably won't take the time to research them.

Addendum: Try reseaching your victim...uh...audience. Sometimes they'll list their preferences on their website.

For instance Daniel Lazar (of Writers House) says this: "If you think your pages can make me miss my subway stop and/or laugh out loud, that would be cool. Please read my submission guidelines -- I'd love to hear from you." Obviously, he's more interested in story than recommendations.

Personally I wouldn't include recommendations from other writers unless a) the writers were clients of that agent, or b) were so famous as to need no introduction. If Kurt Vonnegut said that my book was really swell, I'd mention it.

Use your best judgement and know that there isn't a right answer to that question.

Thank you for your kind comments, Mark.


==============

Brief break from writing to ask for prayers for the citizens of New Orleans and environs. This coming hurricane looks like a bad one.

Thank you for your outstanding instruction and advice. You should consider penning a book on writing.

Not every successful writer is a J.K. Rowling, or even a Scott Turow, most have names that wouldn't raise a single eyebrow if you dropped them at a dinner party, but the midlist is not some desolate hell-hole populated by hacks. It is a place where people who are willing to work hard can carve out real and rewarding careers. You do a better job of staking out that territory than hundreds of other less capable and intellectually inferior authors, who none-the-less offer with pomposity their "Rules and Regulations for the Right Way to Write."

Your "this is what works for me, it might work for you too" approach is a breath of fresh air. You offered me a blue collar take on what I believe is truly a blue collar endeavor. Books don't write themselves, and starving artists aren't starving because its cool to be, but because they haven't figured out how to sell their labors. Van Gogh might be a great character, but his life sucked. Stephen King is accessible, but he admits he won the lottery, and I don't buy lottery tickets. You let your intellect shine through without arrogance, and the value of a good work ethic became the theme of this monster thread.

Thanks in large part to you, I put my but in the chair and wrote my book, and this weekend a VP at one of the majors is reading it. I'm not where I want to be yet, but I know I'm on the right track, and you helped show me the way. I think you should consider turning this thread into a manual on how to get the job done.