Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

cwfgal · Jun 18, 2005

changling said:
I'm still confused, as that picture on your post appears to be Rod Sterling, instead of... Rod Serling.

Ken Schneider

The picture you refer to looks like Rod Serling to me, he of "Twilight Zone" fame. Who is Rod Sterling?

Beth

Ken Schneider · Jun 18, 2005

Well then that would be my mistake, which I apoligize for.

Thank you for pointing it out.

I guess I'll make Absolute Write, read only.

And I thought this was a writing thread, not a shark tank.

loquax · Jun 18, 2005

Ken, Marty had a good point that your post seemed to answer its own questions. The reply may have been 'snide', but I think it was just. It was probably the slight hint of 'bigging yourself up' that promoted such a reply.

If a response is what you're after, here's mine. I don't use those systems. I don't think many people do. They are not so much guidelines as observations of how most plotlines follow; there to give you a small nudge in the right direction. I think you'll find that most people write the same way you do. Am I right?

James D. Macdonald · Jun 18, 2005

Here's my take on the ellipsis v. em-dash discussion:

1) Don't confuse your readers.

2) Be consistent.

(Point 2 may actually be a subset of point 1.)

If the place that buys your book has a house style, they'll follow it. If you have strong objections to the style, discuss it with your editor.

If you disagree with the Chicago Manual of Style, take a pen and correct the book. First, however, you have to read the Chicago Manual so you know what's in it. Understand why you agree or disagree with any of their suggestions. (And anything they have is, in truth, just a suggestion.)

The only rule is: Don't bore your reader.

triceretops · Jun 18, 2005

Just finished my novel last night. Thanks Jim, picked up many jewels from your board. One paticular sentence of yours stuck out more than any other and was the motive for the powerful push.

It's just one damn thing after another.

Of course, it is much more complicated than that, but that pretty much gave me my motto for the rest of my life.
Triceratops

scribbler1382 · Jun 18, 2005

loquax said:
Ken, Marty had a good point that your post seemed to answer its own questions. The reply may have been 'snide', but I think it was just. It was probably the slight hint of 'bigging yourself up' that promoted such a reply.

If a response is what you're after, here's mine. I don't use those systems. I don't think many people do. They are not so much guidelines as observations of how most plotlines follow; there to give you a small nudge in the right direction. I think you'll find that most people write the same way you do. Am I right?

As I told him privately, it wasn't meant as snide. It was meant as a good-humored "hey, I don't know if you noticed it, but look what you wrote! That's hilarious! Maybe you should repost with a little more clarity." I was rebuffed in private and obviously someone's still in a bad mood. Not much else I can say.

(BTW, Rod Sterling is a porn actor.)

P.S. In order to not pollute this fine thread any further, this is the last I'll speak of it.

BenMears · Jun 18, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Some people do. It works for them. They enjoy doing it that way.

It's been entirely too long since I handed out an assignment. Memorize The Walrus and the Carpenter. Memorize the Death of Kings from Richard II. Okay, here's the next:

Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.

Thanks for the assignment, Teach. Quite a vocabulary lesson. Sure I'm mispronouncing half of it and will never get some of the references. (Who or what is Traill, for instance?) So, I probably won't be able to recite, but the point it makes is the true gen.

scribbler1382 · Jun 18, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.

I'll be damned. I always wondered where that saying came from.

Quite enjoyable. Thanks, Jim.

James D. Macdonald · Jun 18, 2005

Traill was most likely H. D. Traill, editor of Literature, a weekly review.

Other vocabulary:

Dwerg: dwarf.
Solutré, Crenelle: French prehistoric sites.
Allobrogenses: ancient Gallic tribe.
Kew, Clapham: London suburbs.
Khatmandhu: capital of Nepal.
Martaban: town in Burma.

Being a writer means you have homework every day. Words are your tools. History is your secret weapon. Read something every day. Write something every day.

This is no easy art.

BenMears · Jun 18, 2005

So much for my excuses. Guess I'll have to memorize the thing. Be forewarned that when I see you, I will recite it, and I may still not have the proper pronunciation.

reph · Jun 18, 2005

jules said:
[Example of ellipsis to indicate pause in speech]

From The War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells, first published in 1898. I don't know for certain that it was set like that in the first edition, but I can't think how else that effect might have been achieved.

Thanks. That's the kind of thing I meant. It seems to me that punctuation in fiction of that time was more varied than punctuation now. You'd see a period followed by a dash, for instance, which might have been used where some writers now use three dots. Books from around 1850-1900 (rough numbers) might have 3-em dashes in places. Maybe those features resulted from typesetters' attempts to render handwritten manuscripts.

Evidently, many current fiction writers believe in using ellipses for pauses, but if it's become accepted in the sense of being genuinely correct, why don't I see it in nonfiction books?

Sean Bosker · Jun 18, 2005

changling said:
Seven point outline,three point outline.

I just write, and find when looking back at previous works, that my writing ends up with these factors anyway.

snip

Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

I think I'll just write, and leave all that thinking stuff to the pro's.

Is this a rhetorical question? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and answer it in good faith. I got a degree in creative writing 15 years ago from SF State and while I learned a lot about postmodern stories and experimental poetry, I didn't really learn the fundamentals of storytelling and the basic craft of writing.

I started writing SF a couple of years ago because I noticed that that SF writers seem to have a tremendous respect for their audience. They actually write for their audience, and they focus on the basics of storytelling. I find this approach fantastic and much needed. For me, it has meant a new investigation of things like outlines and plot structure, things my own writing sorely needed.

Apparently, you're a natural. You write stories based on what you feel like doing, and before you know it, you've composed something that contains all the necessary elements of a well-written story. That's fantastic news for you, I look forward to reading your work. Nothing carries me away like a well-written novel by a natural talent.

Unfortunately for me, I have a facility for writing and I have a creative mind, but I lack the organizational skills to intuitively hit all the marks in a story when I just let myself write away. I really need to examine what I'm doing. I need to do some forethought before I write, and I need to look for what I may be lacking.

This process is difficult. It puts the "pain" in painstaking. I'm no friend of hard work, I'm a lazy, lazy man. That's how I got through four years of a creative writing program without ever reading Shakespeare and without grasping the fundamentals of story telling. Now I'm 36 and I'm trying to bring a bit of discipline and humility to my work that was much needed.

It's not a thrill ride, it's a slow and sometimes not very fun slog. I do it because I find rewards in accomplishing, in learning, and in growing as a writer. It is a labor of love for me, with an emphasis on labor.

As for the fancy tricks, the suggestion in the 7 point plot that the hero try and fail at least once was very beneficial to me. I just finished a short story that included more tension due to my addition, in the outline, of an episode in which my main character makes a big mistake. I didn't exactly conform to the 7 point model, but thinking about my story in that way enabled me to throw another rock at my character before getting him out of the tree. Hopefully, that aspect will be something that a reader likes, after all, that's who I'm hoping to entertain.

Jim, thanks for your 3 point plot. It's hard for me to strike a balance between taking new suggestions and hewing too close to the model. I'm a bit of an all-or nothing type of thinker, which has its limitations.

BenMears · Jun 19, 2005

reph said:
Evidently, many current fiction writers believe in using ellipses for pauses, but if it's become accepted in the sense of being genuinely correct, why don't I see it in nonfiction books?

When I use an ellipsis for a pause (or, more commonly, for a speaker trailing off without finishing the last thought/sentence), it is always in dialogue. Many non-fiction books contain no dialogue. In ones that do, I have seen the ellipsis used similarly.

J. Y. Moore · Jun 19, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Ah, the seven-point plot outline! (Not to be confused with the three point plot outline.)

It works for the stories that follow the seven-point plot outline. It doesn't work for the rest. (Which is to say that I'm not a big fan of this particular Procrustean bed.)

Advantages of the seven-point plot outline:

It's easy to teach.
It gives the writer something definite to do.

Disadvantages:

You wind up with a story that follows the seven-point plot outline just like 4,529 of the other stories that hit Asimov's mailbox this month.

================

If it helps you get words on paper, follow it. Else, don't.

================

The three-point plot outline:

1) Get the hero up a tree.

2) Throw rocks at him.

3) Get the hero out of the tree.

Hey Jim, loved your "Procrustean Bed" reference (had to look it up but it can certainly apply in many places)!

Three point/seven/etc. point outline systems:

We've discussed submission outlines previously. If one expands from the three-point, to the seven-point, to ad infinitum, you now have the outline of your ms for submission. For a proposal on a non-fiction project, this would be essential. At the same time, if you contract that full-blown outline back into the three-point, you have your one or two sentence summary for submission don't you? Of course, if you are giving your prospective publisher/agent a flap summary, you may want to leave off point #3

. Whether you write in this fashion or not, you need to be able to boil your story/project down to bare bones at some point in time.

Personally, I find the 3-point suggested here extremely helpful (as well as humorously put) since I tend to be too verbose. Ergo, I have trouble being succinct, particularly in my query letters (my Procrustean bed - ugh - I'm too tall for the damned thing).

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

J. Y. Moore · Jun 19, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Here's my take on the ellipsis v. em-dash discussion:

1) Don't confuse your readers.

2) Be consistent.

(Point 2 may actually be a subset of point 1.)

If the place that buys your book has a house style, they'll follow it. If you have strong objections to the style, discuss it with your editor.

If you disagree with the Chicago Manual of Style, take a pen and correct the book. First, however, you have to read the Chicago Manual so you know what's in it. Understand why you agree or disagree with any of their suggestions. (And anything they have is, in truth, just a suggestion.)

The only rule is: Don't bore your reader.

Of course, there are times you may want your reader confused, briefly, to build a certain tension and anticipation, so long as you unravel those knots and provide a solution. Ellipsis may or may not be the way to do this. As Jim says, consistency in the way you handle the usage is essential so as not to add to the confusion in a way that would be a distraction and therefore detrimental to your reader's concentration on your story/characters.

http://www.dictionary.com uses this definition:

"el·lip·sis ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lpss)
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sz)

1. The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
An example of such omission.
2. A mark or series of marks (... or * * *, for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words."

I suppose there are places where the "***" might work, but it is not something I would necessarily find useful.

Personally, I find the "... " ellipsis extremely useful in showing an interruption in the though process. Somehow, dashes and em-dashes just don't convey the staccato stuttering I need in some places to convey that horrified or surprised skittering to a dead stop of the thought processes of a character.

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

reph · Jun 19, 2005

J. Y. Moore said:
I suppose there are places where the "***" might work, but it is not something I would necessarily find useful.

"* * *" had a significant use at one time in literature. Formerly, sex scenes were written as a row of asterisks clear across the page. Using only three asterisks might have insulted the characters by implying that the sex was brief.

loquax · Jun 19, 2005

Here's a quirky question - I'm not sure if it's been raised before. What's everybody's stance on book-covers and illustrations? I know the old saying goes 'never judge a book by its cover', but people still do it. Do you reckon that really bad cover-art might put potential buyers off? If so, do authors get any say in it?

It might not have much to do with writing, but I'm sure it's an important part of the process.

DreamWeaver · Jun 19, 2005

loquax said:
What's everybody's stance on book-covers and illustrations? I know the old saying goes 'never judge a book by its cover', but people still do it. Do you reckon that really bad cover-art might put potential buyers off? If so, do authors get any say in it?

I'll admit to being shallow enough that, when browsing, a really nice cover illustration on a book can entice me into picking up that book and looking at the back cover blurb and the first few pages. However, if I'm looking for a specific book, the cover art of that book has no effect at all. I might wish the cover were nicer, or be pleased that the cover is gorgeous, but if I went to the bookstore to buy that book, I'm buying it regardless.

I have no idea how much input the author gets, though I suspect a successful author with a good track record gets more input. I'm sure others here know more about that aspect.

Kris

James D. Macdonald · Jun 19, 2005

Traditionally the author's rights as far as cover art consist of bitching about it.

In practical terms, publishers have art departments that work closely with the marketing folks to come up with a cover that will tell the readers "This is the kind of book you're looking for."

Covers aren't meant to be illustrations. They're meant to be point-of-purchase advertisements.

Don't think that the austere black-and-white cover of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is an exception, either. It has the crow graphic, and the typography is distinctive (and undoubtedly hand drawn). That cover too gives you a feel for what the novel will feel like.

Authors can get "cover consultation" in their contracts fairly easily. It's cover approval that's hard to get.

The publisher can easily pay as much for the cover as they do for the novel itself. That's how important covers are.

PattiTheWicked · Jun 19, 2005

I wandered by the book aisle in Kroger's this evening, and saw a cover so silly I actually laughed out loud. It was a picture of the most Village-People-lookin' Native American I've ever seen, with an expression that probably was meant to convey lust, but instead just made him look constipated. I wish I could remember the title, it was something about Warriors or Brave Something or Other. If I had been that author, I'd be embarassed to have my name on that cover.

AnneMarble · Jun 19, 2005

PattiTheWicked said:
I wandered by the book aisle in Kroger's this evening, and saw a cover so silly I actually laughed out loud. It was a picture of the most Village-People-lookin' Native American I've ever seen, with an expression that probably was meant to convey lust, but instead just made him look constipated. I wish I could remember the title, it was something about Warriors or Brave Something or Other. If I had been that author, I'd be embarassed to have my name on that cover.

Sounds like the covers on Cassie Edwards' novels. (There are others in that vein, such as Connie Mason and Madeline Baker, but Cassie Edwards is one of most popular in the "Indian bride" romance subgenre.)

If it's one of hers, she is probably quite proud of the cover. She has found a niche, and her covers advertise that niche. For years, her covers have been very distinctive -- they even use the same model. From what I've seen in interviews, etc., he is proud of appearing on her covers (and they garner great publicity for him), and she seems happy to be associated with such a popular cover model. Also, those covers help her readers find her books quickly.

This reminds me of some of the discussions I've seen in the science fiction newsgroup. Some of the serious fantasy fans proudly state that if the cover shows a dragon, they will not buy the book -- because fantasy novels dragons on the covers often turn out to be the kind of books they don't like. Once, a fantasy/SF writer in the group pointed out that when his books had dragons on the cover, they sold many many more covers. So their unofficial "boycotts" didn't mean much in the end. Marketing knows what will work.

jules · Jun 20, 2005

loquax said:
Do you reckon that really bad cover-art might put potential buyers off?

Yes. It does me; I've frequently put books down because they have really cliche cover art that left me with a negative feeling of the book in general. Usually this only happens at the second hand bookshop; it might have a lot to do with the covers feeling "old fashioned" in some way, which generally doesn't happen with modern books.

Although there is one recent book in my collection that I picked up based on a recommendation, and which I look at the cover and generally think I never would have bought it if it wasn't recommended to me.

James D. Macdonald · Jun 20, 2005

The purpose of the book's cover is to say "This is the kind of book you like if you like books like this."

If some group doesn't like books that have dragons on the cover and won't buy them, then putting dragons on the cover serves both them and the author.

Would it be better that they buy the book, not like it, and never buy another book by that author? I don't think so.

Roger J Carlson · Jun 20, 2005

When I was a kid, I bought a lot of Science Fiction based on the lurid covers. So what is a "bad" cover by one estimate might be good by another. I read some trash by this method, but I also ran into a lot of good authors -- Asimov, Heinlein, Anderson, Zelazny... Once I knew the author, then I bought by name. But until you know the name, you have to decide by something. For me, it was, and still is in many ways, the cover.

BTW, Jim, I was accepted to Viable Paradise!

AnneMarble · Jun 20, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
The purpose of the book's cover is to say "This is the kind of book you like if you like books like this."

I think that's why some writers are better off not having anything to do with their covers. If they did, they'd refuse to allow dragons or hunk covers or whatever their personal bugaboo is.

James D. Macdonald said:
If some group doesn't like books that have dragons on the cover and won't buy them, then putting dragons on the cover serves both them and the author.

Would it be better that they buy the book, not like it, and never buy another book by that author? I don't think so.

The sad thing is that some of them don't really hate dragons, they just hate some of the fantasy novels that have had dragons. I guess they are protecting themselves, although in some cases, I think they are protecting themselves out of getting to read some perfectly fine books. (In many cases, word of mouth and reviews can help them find out what books they would like despite the cover.)

Also, some readers may simply be a little... nutz? I've heard of people refusing to buy books simply because the title mentioned dragons (as a metaphor) or the cover blurb mentioned that a person was called "The Dragon of So-and-So" or something like that. No matter how often someone explained that there was no dragon in the book, they refused to try reading it. It says "dragon," so it must be bad fantasy with adorable wise dragons in it. Maybe the author is better off not getting that reader anyway -- even if he doesn't come across dragons, he might find some other excuse to hate that writer.

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

On the rocks

Absolute sagebrush

I verb nouns adverbly

Your Genial Uncle

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

Your Genial Uncle

Fig of authority

Sean Bosker

Fig of authority

I verb nouns adverbly

Shakespearean Fool

Your Genial Uncle

Unleashing Hell.

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Bored fanatic

Your Genial Uncle

Moderator In Name Only

Nefarious Ghost Fan