Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Albedo of Zero said:

the theme could be as simple as good vs evil ...or unrequited love

for the theme to be expressed there must be a premise, ie. batman vs joker in gotham city... or a city rat fends off a country cat........ pinnochio falling in love with a real girl...etc.

the plot is the width of the river, the premise is the boat and the theme is the sail

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I must be confused. I thought theme was along the lines of batman vs joker in gotham city or a city rat fends off a country cat, and premise was the statement that the story proves: love conquers all, or dishonesty leads to poverty. ??

Pointing up the theme is what you do during the second draft editing.

All of your words need to be the right words. All of your words need to advance the plot, reveal character, or support the theme. Better words do two of those things. The best words do all three.

Write your book. (Tell your story. Without story there is no book.)

Read it.

Figure out what the theme is.

While writing your second draft knowing what the theme is will help you decide on the right words. Remove or change those that do not support the theme (if they are not already revealing character or advancing plot).

The theme(s) will emerge once you've finished the story. It doesn't mean you shouldn't use one if you have a theme... it means you shouldn't worry too much.

I once wrote a short story. When I wrote it I had no idea what the "theme" was supposed to be. After a few drafts, they naturally emerged and I "tweaked" the story to strengthen them, which were "betrayal and forgiveness."

The same thing happened to my first novel. I had a very simple theme going into it, but eventually multiple themes emerged once I finished writing it.

Funny thing about themes. If you poll ten readers on the same novel, asking them to identify the theme, you'll likely get a half dozen different answers. Write whatever you like, anyway you choose. Consciously install themes or allow them to emerge. Doesn't matter. The readers will interpret and tell you all about your themes...whether you like it or not.

Thanks, all. I feel better now. For my novel, I let the theme emerge and then changed what needed to change in order to color it in. Felt good to do it that way, but it wasn't really a conscious effort until a much later draft.

I agree with LJ though... how your readers interpret your story might surprise you. I think in general my betas all got the gist of the themes, but they all had different interpretations and understanding. It's not that they were wrong -- just that each of them took away something different from my novel. It's really quite interesting.

Hi, Khilari, and congrats on the plot luck.

On themes...I used to worry about them being 'too obvious' or 'too obscure,' but I have decided that different events in people's lives lead them to interperate real and fictional situations differently than I do.
So, my advice would be to write a story that speaks strongly to you - whether you can pinpoint the 'exact' theme or not - and let other people worry about what your story means to them.

James D. Macdonald said:

Pointing up the theme is what you do during the second draft editing.

While writing your second draft knowing what the theme is will help you decide on the right words. Remove or change those that do not support the theme (if they are not already revealing character or advancing plot).

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Excellent advice, Jim. (As always.) I forget his name, but a sculptor was once asked how he took a non-descript block of stone and shaped it into such beautiful things. He said "If I want to sculpt a tree, I just cut off the pieces that don't look like a tree."

Same can probably be said for the second (and third and fourth and...) draft. Build the block with your first draft. Then cut the non-book parts away. Simple!

Khilari

Welcome to the site, forum, and thread. Glad to have you join us.

Nangleator said:

Heh. I have some doubt that LOTR would make it out of a slush pile today.

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Why not?

It's the sequel to a successful book, and it takes off like a shot. You don't run into any backstory until you hit the Council of Elrond halfway through the first book, and by then you're surrounded by Black Riders, Frodo's been stabbed and nearly died, and you're seriously wondering what's going on.

James D. Macdonald said:

Why not?

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Oh, yeah. I forgot how it started. I was thinking of the trilogy as a whole, which I remember being a bit wordy. Sure, I enjoyed all those words but would that style survive an editor's desk today?

In today's socio-political climate, I'm not sure Tolkein would have written the story in exactly the same way. Perhaps his style would have undergone a stylistic evolution, more in step with the times.

In the end, story wins out. If a modern editor were to get past the first chapter, Tolkein would probably do quite well as a first time author in today's market. Interesting question.

Nangleator said:

I was thinking of the trilogy as a whole, which I remember being a bit wordy. Sure, I enjoyed all those words but would that style survive an editor's desk today?

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Robert Jordan. Terry Brooks.

Hi all. I posted something in the SYW forum under SciFi/Fantasy. I'd be honoured of some of you wonderful people would take a look at it.

Thanks.

Aconite said:

Robert Jordan. Terry Brooks.

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Robert Jordan didn't start with wordy tomes, for all they're his best known thing. (he may well ahve always been wordy, I don't know. I should also note that the first book, at least, actually went somewhere with all the words, though I'm told the later series slowed down drastically.)

Terry Brooks started right at the beginning of the fantasy wave begun when Lord of the Rings really took off.

Neither is a good example for a First-time author in an established genre. (Though if you see a similar wave coming up in another genre, and the book in you fits, push!)

That being said, they're wordy in a different way from Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings is wordy due to style, and in a poetic way that is a direct and deliberate tribute to the sources that inspired it from the Eddas to the English Countryside. And, of course, Tolkien was a deep lover of language, and took a great deal of care with every phrase, tinkering with it (Even past publication, IIRC), trying to make it that much more correct.

In that way, its nearest current relation is probably Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Which is, of course, a bestseller (Though there are plenty of people who don't like that, either, and usually for the wordiness.)

I don't get either the poetry or the obvious obsession with just the right word/phrase from Brooks or Jordan. I get more the impression that they are wordy because they do not take the same care to choose just the right words -- and therefore have to use several in its place. Kinda like me in most of my posts.

I also think the section "Concerning Hobbits" (the separated introductory infodump) in LotR is a testament to the prologue commentary earlier in this same topic - Some people can't see why it's there, and some can't imagine why anyone would ever skip it.

Tolkien wrote as closely as he could to a high mythic style. It was not a novel in the purest sense of the word. If you compare his fiction to that of other early novelists such as Robert Louis Stephenson, even Sir Walter Scott or Alexandre Dumas, you see that even those three had a keener grasp on dramatic prose novel style than did Tolkien. And that of course is by his design. He never intended to be a novelist, but a mythologist.

Jordan and Brooks write novels, and in a clearly modern dramatic prose style. Wordiness has nothing to do with it. Now, perhaps the exposition of long Fantasy novels owes much to Tolkien's style, but again that is mythic storytelling. That's why everyone beats to death "show don't tell"--except Fantasy seems to be the most lenient genre for breaking that rule. Fantasy readers are more accepting because we know we're settling down for more of a legend than a regular novel.

Here's something worth reading:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=16582

GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- About one in every two Americans is engrossed in some type of book, according to Gallup's latest measure of the public's reading habits. About half of Americans also say they have read more than five books in the past year, not much different from the number reported a decade and a half ago. There is no widespread pattern as to how people select their books -- some choose by the author, others based on recommendations from their friends, and still others by browsing in a bookstore or library.

The poll, conducted May 20-22, finds 47% of adults saying they are presently reading a book, up from 37% who reported that in 1990, and 23% in 1957.

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It goes on, in some detail, about reading habits and buying habits of Americans.

If you're in this business as a business, it behooves you to be aware of this stuff.

Question posed to me: Mr. Schneider, when is your next book coming out?

My answer: I have a book, but no publisher.

People who have read my first book, and liked it, are now asking about the next one.


Question to you: I will now loose my small but wanting audience before I find publisher?

Question: Be honest about the experience of the first book with other publisher?

Question: Hold them off?

Question: Get some printed at Kinkos to keep them happy?

Conundrum 101.

Signed, flapping in the breeze of P.A.

changling said:

Question posed to me: Mr. Schneider, when is your next book coming out?

My answer: I have a book, but no publisher.

People who have read my first book, and liked it, are now asking about the next one.

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This is normal and to be expected. "I'll let you know when it's coming out" is always a good answer.

Question to you: I will now loose my small but wanting audience before I find publisher?

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Nah. They'll still be there.

Question: Be honest about the experience of the first book with other publisher?

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Don't fib, but there's no reason to tell them everything you know. Your current book will stand on its own. You don't need to mention your previous book.

Question: Hold them off?

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Hold who off? The hordes of zobmis surrounding your house?

Question: Get some printed at Kinkos to keep them happy?

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Who, the fans asking about your next book? You could always ask them if they want to be beta readers.

Conundrum 101.

Signed, flapping in the breeze of P.A.

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Life's a ***** and then you die.

Thanks Jim.

But no, they're not beating the door in.

I do get asked about the next one three to four times a week. Always by someone different, peole I didn't know read it. Some of them I know, and some that know me.

Just frustration I guess.

I'll keep plugging away and submitting. I'm not sure if there is anyone gaulible enough to accept.

You've written your second book, right? You're sending it around? Write another book. Keep going.

Nothing about this job is easy. Nothing is sure. We just have to do our best.

Sending the second around, working on the third, soon to be finished and placed in the drawer. Will start another.

How many do you write and send into circulation?

I know it isn't easy, nothing worth it salt is. I love what I'm doing, but doubt seeps into the cracks of this writers mind. I have no intention of giving up, maybe it will turn out to be a life long hobby. If it does, then I have enjoyed my own stories.

That'd be difficult to do with first person, but not impossible. You just have to imagine being the guy (Borne?) and keep the POV straight. It's like role-playing game. You have to think that you're the chacacter and what happens to you. Obviously, you won't be able to see the "red dot" on your forehead... but can you feel it? Does your training help you feel that someone has aimed a gun at your head?... etc. etc. Then you will fight the guy even if you don't know who he is...

Edit: if the red dot's on his friend's forehead, then no problem. You can describe it. Still, the rest applies...

So basically even though as the author, you know exactly what is happening and who is doing what, you have to do role-play with your character and pretend that you don't know all the facts. Then describe all the action through your character's perceptions.

changling said:

Thanks Jim.

But no, they're not beating the door in.

I do get asked about the next one three to four times a week. Always by someone different, peole I didn't know read it. Some of them I know, and some that know me.

Just frustration I guess.

I'll keep plugging away and submitting. I'm not sure if there is anyone gaulible enough to accept.

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I'd definitely keep their addresses -- email and otherwise -- to keep them abreast of new developments. If you get enough of them, that's a pretty good targeted marketing campaign.

Question for Jim, though:

Is it a good idea to mention this (readers asking for more) to an agent or publisher when querying?