Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Nangleator · May 24, 2005

Has that link been hacked, or did you just want to put a smile on my face?

Nangleator · May 24, 2005

By the way, Writerbo is very, very funny. And I'll need to review my own behavior from now on...

James D. Macdonald · May 24, 2005

Smiles are very important, but the link's been fixed. (Comes from reading/reporting my morning spam while I'm posting here.)

Nangleator · May 24, 2005

Your spam is much better than mine.

Boy, what ever led me to try my hand at writing? It's a horribly difficult industry to get into, it's horrible once you get into it, and it doesn't pay enough.

The only good things about it are: it seems cheap to get into, and it feels pretty good when the story is writing itself. Oh, it's also good typing practice.

Sure, some people make money at it. I think it would be smarter, though, to buy lottery tickets and say I'm a professional lottery winner.

Roger J Carlson · May 24, 2005

Nangleator said:
Sure, some people make money at it. I think it would be smarter, though, to buy lottery tickets and say I'm a professional lottery winner.

You forgot the most important part: "I'm a professional lottery winner. I just haven't won yet."

James D. Macdonald · May 24, 2005

Yet another reason for keeping hard-copy backups and off-site electronic copies of your files.

James D. Macdonald · May 25, 2005

'Cause y'all are my friends, here's a source for special graph paper useful for drawing Celtic knotwork. (See up thread for what you can do with Celtic knotwork....)

http://www.incompetech.com/beta/plainGraphPaper/custom/celtic_blue.pdf

Mr Underhill · May 25, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
In case you don't live with a writer but want to have the experience.

I like the Writerbo's "genre and non-genre angst-generation algorithms." Those could really come in handy.

And then I was wondering about this bit:

I write softcore nerdporn for elf fetishists...

Say, how's that pay, anyway?

James D. Macdonald · May 25, 2005

Mr Underhill said:
Say, how's that pay, anyway?

Better than hardcore nerdporn for elf fetishists. That's a really lousy market. (Too many hatcheck girls.)

(I did, once, see a story that included the startling line, "She had not expected an elf at all, far less an abused one.")

James D. Macdonald · May 25, 2005

The Too Many Hatcheck Girls joke:

One night the police do a sweep in the red light district and haul in a whole bunch of young ladies. They're taken in to night court, where the judge arraigns each one in turn.

The first one stands up, gives her name and address.

"What do you do for a living?" the judge asks.

"I'm a hatcheck girl."

Second young lady, same deal: "I'm a hatcheck girl."

And so on, through a whole paddywagon's worth of young ladies. Finally, the last one approaches the bench.

"And what do you do for a living?" the judge asks.

"I'm a hooker, your honor," the woman replies.

"Really?" the judge says, perking up to finally have someone tell him the truth. "How's business?"

"Terrible," she says. "Too many hatcheck girls."

James D. Macdonald · May 26, 2005

The Romance Heroine Rules

Nangleator · May 27, 2005

Jim,

A long ways back you wrote about a book becoming an orphan at a publisher:

The editing it gets is more of a lick-and-a-promise than the full deal it needs and deserves.

Assuming I've done my best and placed each letter, space, period and comma where it belongs, what editing does my work need and deserve?

willietheshakes · May 27, 2005

Nangleator said:
Assuming I've done my best and placed each letter, space, period and comma where it belongs, what editing does my work need and deserve?

Well, I'm not Uncle Jim, but I'll give it a whirl: your book deserves what editing it needs. What you're referring to -- and this is most people's perception -- is copy-editing, a process by which the book is made correct, sound and given the house-style polish. The editorial process is quite different: it is a relationship with an editor (or two, in my case) to make the book 'better' than you might be able to on your own. This is, of course, an idealized view, but in an ideal world, editorial questions and suggestions will result in a stronger book... Then the copyeditor gets it.

Christine N. · May 28, 2005

What he said. It's edited for plot, meaning that they don't change your story, but may ask you to re-write ambiguous passages, or to take out extraneous ones.

You may love the three page diatribe about what happened 100 years ago to the main character's great great grandmother, something that led to the events in the book, but the readers might not care. The editor will tell you to condense it to one paragraph and lose the rest. (Caveat - unless your name is JRR Tolkein, then you can have ten pages about what happened 1000 years ago to bring us to this point in time...)

Nangleator · May 28, 2005

Christine N. said:
...unless your name is JRR Tolkein...

Heh. I have some doubt that LOTR would make it out of a slush pile today.

Okay, the answers were much what I expected. Thank you.

Also, I read that copy editors were being phased out as an unnecessary expense, and that spell checking was taking a small portion of that load. I assume this is spurious or incomplete, even though many errors I've read in newer books seem to corroborate this. Are the copy editors just being spread thinner and spending less time on each book?

Avalon · May 28, 2005

I read that copy editors were being phased out as an unnecessary expense, and that spell checking was taking a small portion of that load. I assume this is spurious or incomplete, even though many errors I've read in newer books seem to corroborate this. Are the copy editors just being spread thinner and spending less time on each book?

Speaking as a professional copyeditor (yes, it's how I pay the rent, godhelpme), I haven't noticed any discrernible movement in this direction. Last week I had to turn down three jobs. Although spellcheckers may make my job fractionally faster (if used in conjunction with about three good dictionaries), there are plenty of other things that must be done to a manuscript in addition to raw spelling -- and spellcheckers don't even catch all of the typos.

One trend I did start noticing about ten years ago, however, when I worked in book production, was the elimination of /proofreaders/. My companies started switching over to making proofreading part of the author's responsibilities, rather than paying yet another person to read the typeset text versus the manuscript. That could explain some of the errors, perhaps.

Of course, I work in a nonfiction environment. Fiction may be entirely different.

Nangleator · May 28, 2005

Avalon said:
... the elimination of /proofreaders/.

Ah. It's likely that's what my source meant.

You turned down three job offers in a week? I should have gone to college.

Christine N. · May 28, 2005

Hey, send those jobs my way! LOL. I've done some copyediting before, just not paid for it. Well, not in money anyway.

Avalon · May 28, 2005

Not quite job offers. Jobs, as in books to copyedit. I'm already working on a couple, so I couldn't squeeze in any more.

College didn't help me get into it, really. When I went to school, there wasn't a major in copyediting -- although I suppose having the English degree did help me get my first job in publishing. In the mail room. ;D

azbikergirl · May 28, 2005

Premise schmemis

I have a question for Uncle Jim and the rest of you who know what you're doing...

Whenever I get the idea for a story and start to write, I become stalled if I can't think of what message the story will bring. The stories I read don't always have a [discernable] message ("love conquers all," "look both ways before crossing the street," etc.) -- they're just stories. But I have this notion in my mind that if my stories don't carry some sort of message, they're not worth writing. Do all good stories have a premise (even if the reader can't tell what it is)? When I can't think of the premise for a story idea, should I wait until it comes to me before continuing with the story, or is it something I can work in later? Do other writers start with the premise and build a situation around it?
:idea:

triceretops · May 28, 2005

I think there's an inherent theme or message in just about every story we tell. I think that after a story is written, you can just about guess or accurately identify what the premise is. Gosh, you could say good over evil is a premise. Removing obtacles and supplanting them with stepping stones, seems to be a favorite of PA's guidelines. Is this what you are talking about? The overall message? I don't think I spend too much time wondering if my premise is down pat or obvious in the text. But I did once...

My agent told me that she would much rather I write books that contained a "save the world" premise (no kidding). Of course my book was about a lethal contest that last 48 hrs over 500 pages. All the protag wanted to do was win 1 billion dollars--so there was absolutely NO real concrete premise going on here except that the protag wanted to win the contest without killing anyone. She loved the book nevertheless. Go figure.

Tri

AnneMarble · May 28, 2005

azbikergirl said:
Do all good stories have a premise (even if the reader can't tell what it is)?

Sometimes, they have a premise even if the writer doesn't know what it is.

OTOH I do know authors who go into a story with a specific theme in mind. Sometimes those stories turn out to be a huge flop. They forget the old saying -- If you want to send a message, use Western Union. That's not to say that theme isn't important. But most writers I know think of characters or plots before they think about the theme.

azbikergirl said:
When I can't think of the premise for a story idea, should I wait until it comes to me before continuing with the story, or is it something I can work in later? Do other writers start with the premise and build a situation around it?

I usually don't think of a theme when I'm writing the story. In fact, I often don't realize what it is. In a writing chat, I once asked a question about theme and admitted I didn't know if my novel had a theme. One of the chatters (who had read it) pointed out that it was about the first MC learning to accept his abilities, the second MC learning to trust the first MC, the would-be villain learning to accept that he was actually a commoner. I was amazed! I had written a story, but it was about something at the same time.
:faint:

katee · May 28, 2005

When I started outlining my novel, I didn't have a theme in mind, and I still didn't have one when I started writing the first draft. However, as I started writing, a - totally unexpected - theme has sprung forth. I'm going to have to make some changes in my second draft to bring the theme out fully, but all the work I did beforehand without the theme in mind is still valid.

So I'd say go right ahead with writing with or without a theme.

And honestly, if it's an interesting story and a great read, it doesn't really matter whether there's a theme or not.

triceretops · May 28, 2005

Katee--I agree, the theme almost always appears or comes into the script by default. Being preocupied with a relevant theme can only deter a writer and throw up another one of those pesky little blocks.

Tri

Albedo of Zero · May 28, 2005

the theme could be as simple as good vs evil ...or unrequited love

for the theme to be expressed there must be a premise, ie. batman vs joker in gotham city... or a city rat fends off a country cat........ pinnochio falling in love with a real girl...etc.

the plot is the width of the river, the premise is the boat and the theme is the sail

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