Gender balance in fantasy

Certain editors were unwilling to see women in main roles for a while, sure, but that's not what you said. You said it was a joke to see women in protagonist roles, that selling a novel like that coudln't be done. What I'm saying is that it was happening well before 1987, not that it was the norm.

Anne McCaffrey's Dragonflight came out in 1967, and Dragonsong in 1976.
Marion Zimmer Bradley had books coming out from 1962, and while I haven't read most of them and can't remember most of the ones I've read, they had strong female characters much of the time.
Tanith Lee was writing from the late 60s, and I know I've read a couple SF books of hers from the 70s where there were female protagonists.
Ursula Le Guin, of course, had The Tombs of Atuan in 1971, and while she arguably only really got her strong female protagonists up and running in the late 80s, that seems to have more to do with her development as a writer.

Anyway, even if the timeline's off, I take your point, I think -- we're only just stumbling towards some semblance of gender equality. I think it's something well worth thinking about, it's just, you can't do a mechanical splice of a woman into a book to make up for it. The issue, when there is an issue, is much much deeper than that.

J. R. Tomlin said:

Why would that be interesting? About 1/2 the fantasy and SF out there is basically all-male with at most a female red-shirt thrown in, but frequently not even that.

Until about 20 years ago, selling a novel in either genre with a female MC was literally a joke. It couldn't be done. And even after that for quite a while, the few that were published were few and far between.

I must say my female protags never wear dresses. Not that they hate dresses, but it just doesn't come up. A guide, for example, in a dress would just be ridiculous. They frequently like swordplay. It's certainly more entertaining than embroidery.

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Don't ask me. It was an agent blog. *shrug* I think they're just tired of seeing female protags like Rhapsody *cough choke vomit*.

My female protags never wear dresses either. It's not very appropriate for most of mine and there's nothing I hate more than a woman who can expertly fight in a dress. Give me a frickin' break. I agree with you 100% on that.

As for Hap's comment about the women in Bishop's work, I agree, and I hate extraneous characters. I can tell you I was skipping around that bastard like crazy. There were only three characters I liked, but I really fell for them, and when they weren't on the page, I went looking for them.

J. R. Tomlin: I wholeheartedly agree with you about female protagonists. It is good that the times of good old JRRT and co are over. But I do not think any one writer will be able to return us to these times, or that because the past was so screwed we as writers have to have an agenda and put in female protags into leading roles even when our imaginations dictate something else.

Race inequality in sf/f is even bigger than gender inequality; U. Le Guin made big waves because her protagonists were people of color. Nowadays it is still not very often that we find MCs of color. Does that mean that every SF/F author should have to make one of their protagonists a person of color? IMHO, only if the story calls for it, and only if they can tell a convincing story that way.

Just as I do not want to read about white persons painted black but still acting as your regular white college kids, I do not want to read a about woman and think, "she should have been a man."

In my WIP I deal with race issues because it is true to my world and to my story. In my world, people are constantly in conflict because of race. I have four strong female protagonists. And yet, my novel opens with two white males in a relationship, just because this is what my story calls for, and story trumps all.

Just my imho.

Gray Rose said:

J. R. Tomlin: I wholeheartedly agree with you about female protagonists. It is good that the times of good old JRRT and co are over. But I do not think any one writer will be able to return us to these times, or that because the past was so screwed we as writers have to have an agenda and put in female protags into leading roles even when our imaginations dictate something else.

Race inequality in sf/f is even bigger than gender inequality; U. Le Guin made big waves because her protagonists were people of color. Nowadays it is still not very often that we find MCs of color. Does that mean that every SF/F author should have to make one of their protagonists a person of color? IMHO, only if the story calls for it, and only if they can tell a convincing story that way.

Just as I do not want to read about white persons painted black but still acting as your regular white college kids, I do not want to read a about woman and think, "she should have been a man."

In my WIP I deal with race issues because it is true to my world and to my story. In my world, people are constantly in conflict because of race. I have four strong female protagonists. And yet, my novel opens with two white males in a relationship, just because this is what my story calls for, and story trumps all.

Just my imho.

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I agree with the race thing and story trumping all. In my work, everyone was created in the same place, but after the close-knit community was shattered and they spread to different parts of the world, skin color started to slowly creep towards different ends of the spectrum. It's not really a big deal in the story and just mentioned once in passing, but at the end of the series small details like that will hopefully come together to create the more subtle ending that probably only a small percentage of readers will get. Of course, there's a nice showy end for everyone, but I like endings that make me think after I put the book down.

About the race thing...I sold a short story this past spring with a black MC. The thing is, she didn't describe herself as black, she just mentioned that the other character in the story was a white boy. The editor asked me what race she was, asked me to put a mentiion of it in early, and finally just had me take out the reference to race entirely, because it "wasn't important."

Okay, so it didn't have anything to do with the story. But neither did it have anything to do with the story that she was white, either. Big surprise: the editor is white.

Sorry, I haven't told that story to anyone but it bugs me every time I think about it. I just hope the editor doesn't lurk here (um, hi!).

Saanen, this is disgusting imho.

Gray Rose said:

Race inequality in sf/f is even bigger than gender inequality; U. Le Guin made big waves because her protagonists were people of color. Nowadays it is still not very often that we find MCs of color. Does that mean that every SF/F author should have to make one of their protagonists a person of color? IMHO, only if the story calls for it, and only if they can tell a convincing story that way.

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THat was one of the reasons I liked "Anansi Boys" so much. Also, Octavia Butler's novels were a welcomed respite from the uber whiteness of so many sci-fi/fantasy novels.

Beyond that, I think it depends on the world you are writing about whether or not skin color is an issue the way it is here on planet Earth in 2007. For example, in the world I use, people are not divided up by skin color. Race is dependent on those who cast magic and those who do not (dark-skinned magic casters would trump white, non-magic casters every time). In my books, there are many issues of inequality, racism, even aparthied, but skin color has nothing to do with it.

Gray Rose said:

J. R. Tomlin: I wholeheartedly agree with you about female protagonists. It is good that the times of good old JRRT and co are over. But I do not think any one writer will be able to return us to these times, or that because the past was so screwed we as writers have to have an agenda and put in female protags into leading roles even when our imaginations dictate something else.

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I wasn't saying that people shouldn't go with their imagination. If someone wants to write an all-male world, I think they should be free to do so. Where did I say we should have an "agenda?"

The OP asked if some people would be turned off by not having women in a story. I answered the question honestly. Did you want me to lie?

I would be and I probably wouldn't read such a book. It doesn't mean that time will be turned back or whatever. I would simply be turned off and wouldn't read it. And I consider the male-male relationship SO done in the past (so Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid 70's stuff) that I wouldn't consider it worth getting past my initial reaction to read it.

Sometimes I have people of color in my worlds. But frankly that has been done for a long time--since Le Guin did it decades ago--and I don't think it adds much one way or the other.

And I still get enough reactions about my female MCs -- people saying but she's FEMALE. HOW can she lead an army? *whine whine*

I think gender as an issue is a long way from having gone away. I don't write female MCs to have an "agenda." I write them because they are the characters who interest me and who I want to write about. Others should do the same. But I will react to that.

Funny that it is all right for guys not to read a book with women in it (as some in this thread have claimed) but for some reason it wouldn't be all right for me to decide NOT to read a book with NO women in it. Double standard anyone...

Gray Rose said:

But I do not think any one writer will be able to return us to these times, or that because the past was so screwed we as writers have to have an agenda and put in female protags into leading roles even when our imaginations dictate something else.

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I think what Gray is saying is that writers shouldn't plug in a minority (female, person of color, person with a disability) just to have them a part of the story. Do that, and you'll end up with some kind of TV sit-com character (the platonic girl best friend, the mandatory African-American, the Asian grocery story owner, etc.) Characters should be genuine and contribute meaningfully to the story.

And I agree with you, Gray. I think our characters need to be who we imagine them to be, not what society dictates is right.

Doodlebug said:

I think what Gray is saying is that writers shouldn't plug in a minority (female, person of color, person with a disability) just to have them a part of the story. Do that, and you'll end up with some kind of TV sit-com character (the platonic girl best friend, the mandatory African-American, the Asian grocery story owner, etc.) Characters should be genuine and contribute meaningfully to the story.

And I agree with you, Gray. I think our characters need to be who we imagine them to be, not what society dictates is right.

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Hot damn, that's what I'm missing! I need someone in a wheelchair in my novels! *snicker* They decide to journey through the Forest of Evil to the Towers of Doom, but there are tree roots to vanquish before they can make it to the Big Bad. The paraplegic heroine no doubt does a record number of faceplants along the way.

Note: I'm in a wheelchair, don't jump down my throat for the "humor."

J. R. Tomlin said:

Why would that be interesting? About 1/2 the fantasy and SF out there is basically all-male with at most a female red-shirt thrown in, but frequently not even that.

I must say my female protags never wear dresses. Not that they hate dresses, but it just doesn't come up. A guide, for example, in a dress would just be ridiculous. They frequently like swordplay. It's certainly more entertaining than embroidery.

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See, I'm trying to create my female MC... well. She's the 2nd oldest of 5 daughters, the daughter of a general, so she's learned a lot about wars from him, but because of the pay and everything was on the course to become a proper lady. She knows a lady's world best and is comfortable in it, but one year she heard about a strange enemy that Father was writing about in his letters and decided that she'd skip school, disguise herself as a boy, and join the army, because she felt it was where she was needed. Her father is an extremely patriotic man, and because of his influence she did what he would have done, even though it wasn't really the proper thing for a girl to do.

I really don't want to make her a redshirt. Even though I wouldn't like her personally, she could be very interesting...

I don't know, I have one major beef with the non-use of dresses. Dress =/= pretty. Not all dresses are corsetted gowns that noble women wear to court. Serf women still wore dresses even though they worked mostly with the menfolk. A dress can be perfectly functional, even though it's not usually thought of that way today. I can imagine a guide hiking up her skirt to her knees or something, but in a general western society before a certain point, she'd still probably be wearing a dress. If it doesn't really come up that they're wearing dresses, some of your audience will just assume she's wearing a dress.

J.R. Tomlin -
I am sorry that my opinion seems to have upset you. This was not my intention.

Doodlebug below perfectly rephrases my somewhat clumsy thoughts:

Doodlebug said:

I think what Gray is saying is that writers shouldn't plug in a minority (female, person of color, person with a disability) just to have them a part of the story. Do that, and you'll end up with some kind of TV sit-com character (the platonic girl best friend, the mandatory African-American, the Asian grocery story owner, etc.) Characters should be genuine and contribute meaningfully to the story.

And I agree with you, Gray. I think our characters need to be who we imagine them to be, not what society dictates is right.

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As for race, you write:

J. R. Tomlin said:

Sometimes I have people of color in my worlds. But frankly that has been done for a long time--since Le Guin did it decades ago--and I don't think it adds much one way or the other.

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I have racial conflict in my novel not because it "adds" some ingredient to my recipe, but because this is true to my world. In my world the Redblood hate the Otherblood because they look different, their magic is different, and above all, their society and customs are different. The Otherbloods dislike the Redbloods for similar reasons. Clash of cultures is a central theme in my writing; in this novel the culture clash also involves race, in the next ones it might be something else.

Funny that it is all right for guys not to read a book with women in it (as some in this thread have claimed) but for some reason it wouldn't be all right for me to decide NOT to read a book with NO women in it. Double standard anyone...

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I am perhaps missing something, but I have not seen anybody tell you what to read and what not to read. It is, of course, your choice. If anything, your opinions are laudable both for being honest and for being bravely voiced. However, the question was not what you should or should not read, but what the author should or should not write.

Just my 2c.

Haphazard said:

I really don't want to make her a redshirt.

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Hey, don't knock the redshirts. They serve a vital purpose, you know. Where would Kirk and Spock be without them? Other than dead, that is?

Characters can be classified beyond MCs and supporting cast. There is a whole range of complexity for minor characters from the nameless drones who fight/die in battle scenes, to the somewhat more fleshed out characters who crop up every fifty pages or so (bosses, mothers-in-law), to the even more detailed people like close companions, lovers and friends, etc., etc., etc.

To go out on a limb and pick a very non-fantasy/sci fi example, think of the television show M*A*S*H (if you've ever seen it). There are all kinds of characters wandering in and out of the army camp. Because the show is about a hospital, and the writers want the audience to care about the patients who only appear for a single episode, there is a lot of care given to them, but at the same time, they do not upstage the main actors. (Actually, thinking about it, there are many shows that do this.) Anyway, by adding a few details (where the person is from, what music she likes, the jokes he tells, etc.) you can get your readers to care about the person.

Gray Rose said:

Race inequality in sf/f is even bigger than gender inequality; U. Le Guin made big waves because her protagonists were people of color.

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And then they turned Earthsea into movies with... white people.
Repeatedly.

Nowadays it is still not very often that we find MCs of color.

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I think I'd like to spin this off into its own thread, actually. Let's talk about color. It's a hard one.

J. R. Tomlin said:

Funny that it is all right for guys not to read a book with women in it (as some in this thread have claimed) but for some reason it wouldn't be all right for me to decide NOT to read a book with NO women in it. Double standard anyone...

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I don't think that's what people are reacting to. 'cuz I said that too
I think perhaps we miscommunicated? It sounded to me like you thought the OP should splice a woman back into her story. That's what I, at least, was reacting to.

Whereas... it wouldn't be my cuppa tea, but I don't think that's a good reason for the OP to change it. You know what I mean?

Shweta said:

And then they turned Earthsea into movies with... white people.
Repeatedly.

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Don't get me started on that one, Shweta. Just *don't*. (fuming through the mouth and ears)

I think I'd like to spin this off into its own thread, actually. Let's talk about color. It's a hard one.

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Yes, please. Let's talk about race, and the fear of the Other.

Gray Rose said:

Yes, please. Let's talk about race, and the fear of the Other.

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By all means.

But do begin a new thread for it, please. And let's be sure the conversation is a discussion--and not a debate.

Shweta said:

And then they turned Earthsea into movies with... white people.
Repeatedly.



I think I'd like to spin this off into its own thread, actually. Let's talk about color. It's a hard one.




I don't think that's what people are reacting to. 'cuz I said that too
I think perhaps we miscommunicated? It sounded to me like you thought the OP should splice a woman back into her story. That's what I, at least, was reacting to.

Whereas... it wouldn't be my cuppa tea, but I don't think that's a good reason for the OP to change it. You know what I mean?

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It's up to the OP to decide whether to change it or not. I said no such thing and didn't express an opinion one way or the other.

I answered the OP's question. Are there people who might choose to not read it or possibly be offended? Yes, there are. While I doubt I would be offended, there is a very high possibility I wouldn't read it.

You can choose to read what you want to into that. I frankly felt that all the "Oh, it doesn't matter at all" was a bit less than honest. To some readers it does indeed matter. Whether an author chooses to take that into consideration is for the individual to decide.

Frankly since the character he was taking out sounded like a stereotyped "love interest" rather than a real character, I doubt that taking her out is a big loss. But again, it's for the author to decide.