Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

wurdwise · Apr 20, 2005

Need advice on age of my protagonist

Sorry to interrupt the SF fantasy subject, carry on, but I was hoping by moving this question here, I might get an answer. I posted it in children's writing, but nobody bit. Hopefully, since there's more action here, I can get some advice. Thank you, and good evening. :heart:

I really need some guidance. I keep hearing that my 13 year old protagonist seems younger, and maybe she should be. I was informed when I started writing for middle readers that even though the readership is 9-12, they like to read stories about someone older than them, in other words, that you should write up to them, not down. I agree with that. What I am thinking of doing is changing Maddy's age to 12, and I guess that means my readership would be, what, 8-11 year olds? Is that still considered a middle reader? And if not, what is it considered in the genre world? And this is very important, would a sixth grade class have an end of school dance? Is that realistic? This is sounding more and more like the solution to my problem, because my character is the same throughout the novel and I want her to stay that way, even if she needs to lose a year! Some of you seasoned experts, please offer your opinions and feedback.

Thanks, Denise

dblteam · Apr 20, 2005

wurdwise said:
And this is very important, would a sixth grade class have an end of school dance? Is that realistic?

Thanks, Denise

My sixth grader has a dance coming up. He has no interest in going, of course. There will be girls there.

Valerie

shmegegge · Apr 20, 2005

the market on vulgarity...

Hi. This is my first post. I just found this thread, and it's amazing. Thank you all for being amazing and informative.

I was curious about something, but it's related to magazine publishing. I hope that's ok.

Is there a general rule of thumb for how a magazine will feel about vulgarity in a story?

I ask because, while there's certainly something to be said for not including them in certain types of stories, for the most part I've never encountered a community where it's youngsters didn't swear, and excessively.

I'm 25 and, while not necessarily a youngster, I and almost everyone in my age group that I know swear all the time. Furthermore, we swore even more when we were young enough to get in trouble for it.

Principally, I'm worried because when I read a story and encounter some curse-substitute or euphemism (darn, flarn, fraggin', etc...), I'm immediately jarred out of the story and have to work to re-immerse myself. This happens whenever I encounter just about any arbitrary language substitution in a story, (characters speaking english (or common or whatever) the entire time and then referring to some place or phenomenon with an italicized local colloquialism that's made up would be the classic example.) but fake swear words in particular bother the fleboble out of me. (See?! How unnatural does that read?!) This doesn't include well thought out languages developed for deeply and richly imagined epic stories, (Fremen in Dune, any of a number of examples in LOTR) but almost anything else. I know that curses have a similar effect on a lot of people, though. Hence my dilemma.

So, if my story involving youngsters has them swearing often, am I asking for a rejection? Would I be asking for a rewrite without curses in it? Sure, every magazine/publisher has their own policy, but is there a general opinion that the majority seem to hold?

I searched this thread up and down (as I was able. I simply don't have the time to read every page of it through and through.) and couldn't find this question asked, here. If it's a duplicate question, though, I'm very sorry.

Rose · Apr 20, 2005

shmegegge said:
Is there a general rule of thumb for how a magazine will feel about vulgarity in a story?

You might also try posting this question in the Freelance Writing forum -- that's where us magazine writers tend to hang out. And welcome to AW!

wurdwise · Apr 20, 2005

dblteam said:
My sixth grader has a dance coming up. He has no interest in going, of course. There will be girls there.

Valerie

LOL, that's exactly what a friend in my small writer's group said. I think I've decided to make her 12 and have them go roller skating. It's a small town, that's about all there is to do, and you roller skate to music. I have found most of the answers to my question already, but thanks for the reply...

maestrowork · Apr 20, 2005

You, the writer, must have everything explained to the reader's satisfaction. Just don't put the explanation in the story.

The author should know everything. The readers don't have to.

FreeSlave786 · Apr 21, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
There's no need to explain the 'why' of anything unless you're writing a textbook. Just show the actions and the reactions of your characters.

I've tried to do a lot of showing throughout the book. I guess I'll have to let my beta readers (especially those outside my cultural circle) help me to pick out the bits that have problems.

FreeSlave - there are some excellent romance novels about the Amish culture/religion which I remember reading when I was younger - if it worked with the Amish it should work with Muslims too

sunandshadow, do you happen to remember titles/authors of any of them?

and finally,

The general perception among us, I admit, is that Muslim women wear burqa because they have no choice. So if your protagonist wears one voluntarily, my feeling is that she will not be considered a representative, but more of an exception.

...

So I would say your protagonist would make an interesting character, but how true or representative she is perceived to be, is another thing.

thanks,
Paritosh.

See, that is exactly what I've been thinking. I knew when I started the book that I would need to deal with this aspect. I think it's because there haven't been many positive books about these so-called exceptions.

That's partly what drives me to make sure I give it my best -- the challenge to bringing out this 'world' that DOES exist and amazingly, is unknown to so many

Thanks all!

Christine N. · Apr 21, 2005

wurdwise said:
LOL, that's exactly what a friend in my small writer's group said. I think I've decided to make her 12 and have them go roller skating. It's a small town, that's about all there is to do, and you roller skate to music. I have found most of the answers to my question already, but thanks for the reply...

The protag in my first book is 11. When I wrote it I didn't even give a thought to it, she was just 11 and that's the way she came out.

But since it's a fantasy, her age doesn't really play that much into it. It's not like the whole book is about her being in sixth grade. If you're writing a "real world" book, then I would go with older.

My editor did ask if we could make her 13, but it never really got anywhere, I guess b/c it's not that really a big part of the story. Kids will read it if it's interesting.

Shiny_Penguin · Apr 21, 2005

wurdwise said:
I guess that means my readership would be, what, 8-11 year olds? Is that still considered a middle reader? And if not, what is it considered in the genre world?

I can't tell you if that's a middle reader, but my son is 7 1/2 and in 2nd grade. Most of his classmates are 8 (he's the youngest), so they would be the low end of what ou're guessing your readership to be. He reads short chapter books like James and the Giant Peach and Captain Underpants. I'm not up on the lingo for children's lit, but I would guess that's not middle reader (than again, what do I know?) I just read Midnight for Charlie Bone and I've seen that listed as ages 7-10

James D. Macdonald · Apr 21, 2005

shmegegge said:
Is there a general rule of thumb for how a magazine will feel about vulgarity in a story?

Read the magazine you're submitting to. Get copies of their guidelines, and follow them.

Realism: Remember that dialog in literature doesn't sound like natural speech. Dialog is a literary convention.

black winged fighter · Apr 21, 2005

Uncle Jim, would you mind sharing how many different novels you wrote before submitting for the first time?

James D. Macdonald · Apr 21, 2005

black winged fighter said:
Uncle Jim, would you mind sharing how many different novels you wrote before submitting for the first time?

One that's never been submitted.

jlawrenceperry · Apr 22, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
One that's never been submitted.

Moral of the story for us?

You just gotta submit that thing! One only learns by doing!

"You gotta have faith-a-faith-a-faith-ah...."

(How did George Michael get into this discussion?)

James D. Macdonald · Apr 22, 2005

jlawrenceperry said:
Moral of the story for us?

You just gotta submit that thing! One only learns by doing!

Well, no. In not submitting my first novel I've joined the ranks of such literary greats as Hemingway, who didn't submit his first novel either.

Far too many writers fail to burn their first books. (Exception: If you personally are a genius, and your first novel is briiliant.)

Entirely too many authors who have failed to burn their first novel then spend ten years trying to sell it rather than write a second novel.

jlawrenceperry · Apr 22, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
Entirely too many authors who have failed to burn their first novel then spend ten years trying to sell it rather than write a second novel.

Okay, true. I was thinking of your subsequent novels, anyway. Perhaps the important thing is that you only wrote one novel before you had the faith to submit the rest of them?

The novel I'm working on right now is still almost the same story, but so different from the first attempt that it might as well be my second.

Can you call it a novel if you never submitted it? Or is it just a big stack of garbage prose? That's how I see my first attempt. I don't even dignify that thing with the word "novel."

Christine N. · Apr 22, 2005

I never finished my first novel. Only got halfway through. I was thinking about going back one day and cleaning it up, but then again, perhaps I'll leave it as a sacrifice to the writing gods.

jlawrenceperry · Apr 22, 2005

Trust me, I sacrificed a ton of the old plot and details to the writing gods. It felt good. A lot like purging. Except without the painful sharp elements.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 22, 2005

jlawrenceperry said:
Can you call it a novel if you never submitted it? Or is it just a big stack of garbage prose? That's how I see my first attempt. I don't even dignify that thing with the word "novel."

Sure you can call it a novel. If it pleases you to do so.

bkrrh85 · Apr 22, 2005

Hey, I know what you guys mean. I packed my first novel into a non-transparent box so I wouldn't have to look at its pages! I shudder to think that I had the unmitigated gal to even send it out!!! But, I did get one long handwritten response on it, so maybe sometime in the next forty years or so, I'll dust it off and look at it again!

Ranneh

jlawrenceperry · Apr 22, 2005

40 years? what's that? Time in the wilderness before entering the promised land? If it's a good story, recycle it as soon as it seems right, or at least recycle it in your head and see if it sounds better.

zizban · Apr 22, 2005

My first novel is in a box in a closet. I someone steal ideas from it.

bkrrh85 · Apr 22, 2005

Forty years . . . drew it out of my head. Very hypothetical. It's just that's how long I think it would take to rework the thing into something worth sending out, because I don't plan on spending any time on it right away!!

Ranneh

James D. Macdonald · Apr 22, 2005

jlawrenceperry said:
40 years? what's that? Time in the wilderness before entering the promised land? If it's a good story, recycle it as soon as it seems right, or at least recycle it in your head and see if it sounds better.

Recycle it? If you must. A better idea might be a different story with different characters in a different situation.

E.G. Gammon · Apr 22, 2005

Jim,

You know all about my novel series - how many characters there are and the complexity of the story/plot. I'd appreciate some of your wisdom on the balance of character and plot...

Also, does anyone know of any books with a LARGE cast of characters that you could recommend to me? My series has a little over 80 characters, almost 60 at one time (the reason being, it's a supernatural fantasy - a genre where death is pretty much required - mixed with a serial killer mystery - I need a lot of characters so I can kill off a good chunk of them) and I would like to read some novels to see how others writers handled a large cast of characters.

Thanks!

James D. Macdonald · Apr 22, 2005

How many of those characers are major characters?

How many are just walk-ons?

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

wurdwise

dblteam

shmegegge

Rose

Escribo, entonces existo.

wurdwise

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

FreeSlave786

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Shiny_Penguin

665:Neighbor of the Beast

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

black winged fighter

AW Addict

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

jlawrenceperry

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

jlawrenceperry

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

jlawrenceperry

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

bkrrh85

jlawrenceperry

zizban

bkrrh85

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

E.G. Gammon

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle