What is Sexual Harassment? What is the Proper Response?

I know! I wasn't allowed to go out the back way of our restaurant when a creepy customer was stalking me. My manager said we just aren't allowed to go out the back, just the cooks. It wasn't taken seriously at all, and here this guy would be following me to my car.

That was decades ago. I'm sad to hear that there is still a problem with that sort of thing. I definitely think managers should buck up and help out. That's part of what they are there for... eejits.

I wouldn't call it sexual harassment, but I'm coming from a human resources arena. If this were happening between two co-workers, then it would be sexual harassment and the employer would be required to take action. However, what you're describing is stalking, and whether or not the employer is required to take any action would depend on where you live. As far as I know, there is no US federal law to force the employer to act, but there may be state laws re: ensuring employee safety. Personally, I guess I've been fortunate, as the companies I've worked for have asked customers to leave if they harass any employee, and several have had parking lot escorts for any employee who requests it.

The problem is some businesses are so worried about pleasing customers that the employees are expected to put up with anything a customer dishes out. The employees simply don't count. When I was young, I wore a fake wedding ring and that took care of nearly all creepy customer problems. Some men seem to believe single young waitresses are a free dessert that comes with their meal.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

(Mods feel free to move this if it's in the wrong spot.)

I thought I knew what sexual harassment and sexism was. But then I started having female friends work retail, and now I know I hadn't the faintest clue.

I want to address the questions in the title generally, but it was inspired by a specific story. Just recently, a female friend told me a story. One of the many I've heard from her and others about being hit on at work. Here goes:


A man came into her work, asked her if they knew each other. She thought for a moment, and said, yeah, sure. Do you hang around with [a certain group of people she knew]. Yes, he said. They chatted a bit about that group. Then he asked for her number.

My friend: "Sorry, but I don't think I'm going to give it to you. Have a nice night, sir."

Customer: "Do you (implying the company) have a policy about giving out numbers?"

My friend: "No, but my boyfriend has a policy about me giving guys my number."

Customer: "I don't care. I'm not leaving 'til I get it." Seriously doesn't leave. Like, waits around in the store for hours.

My friend: Gives him her number then blocks him immediately once he texts her. Thinks issue is solved.

Customer: Left. Later dug her up on social media when she didn't answer his blocked texts. Called her names.


Similar, worse, and slightly lesser versions of this have happened to many of my female friends on multiple occasions. What makes it worse is obviously the guy knows where she(they) work(s), so she can't avoid him. Literally every single employer has told my friends they can't complain, shouldn't call the cops, will probably get fired if they make a stink. This happens with customers and co-workers. All my friends are younger women between 16 and 25. (I'm sure it happens to older women, as well, but I don't have any experience with that.)


Do people just not view this as sexual harassment? This situation didn't, but many involve comments or physical contact by the perpetrator, which the victim has clearly told him isn't wanted. There doesn't seem to be a solution here. Is it worth calling the cops? Trying to take things up the ladder in the company? Is there some recourse available neither I nor my friends are thinking of?

What if there are no stalking or similar harassment laws in the jurisdiction?


Why are we as a society allowing this stuff to happen, and refusing to help the victims? Do most people believe this is acceptable behavior? Do they just not care if it doesn't happen to them? I know this isn't politics in the sense of Dems vs. Reps, or current events in the sense of wild stories in the paper. But I'd still call it current events, and it relates to a lot of the issues we discuss here.


Thoughts?

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No, that's not sexual harassment as I've ever used the definition. Nor would calling the cops do anything - the guy didn't do anything. I mean he was a jackass no doubt, but that's not a crime. It's a private enterprise - the woman should have told him to gtfo of the store, and seriously should never have given him her number. If he won't leave a store when told to, then you can call cops to tell him to gtfo, but it doesn't seem from what's posted that that even happened.

If the management doesn't want to throw people out of the store, ever, that's an issue for HR.

Making comments isn't a crime. Stalking is in some jurisdictions, but that doesn't sound like what happened there either.

This is definitely a form of sexual harassment. And it started in her workplace, but continued into her personal life. I know I don't have to say it, but giving the guy her number was a bad idea. Not because it led him on (people like this don't need to be led on--they know what they're doing), but because it gave him the means to continue the harassment.

She should document everything, and yes, tell her boss about it. Employers are required by law to provide safe and harassment-free workplaces for their workers, even if the harasser is a customer. And if the man is harassing her, she should call the cops. Sadly, there's not much she can do, probably, but take out a restraining order (which costs money), but at the very least, her employers should bar this man from their place of business. She should also continue to block him and report him to the social media platforms on which he is harassing her, for whatever good it will do.

She might want to consider changing her number too.

Not only is it sexual harassment, it's cyberbullying, IMO. Several states have laws that cover that one, even if they don't think it fits under the harassment umbrella. Call the cops and show them the posts he made.

It comes down to Rules as Written cs Rules as Intended.

Was the guy a creep? Yes. Is the sexual harassment statute supposed to protect against guys like that? Yes. Can the cops do anything here? Apart from a slap on the wrist, not really. If it were an internal company matter then I'm sure something could be done about it, however the fact that the creep in question is a citizen rather than an employee means the company view him as a customer rather than a problem.

I consider any intimate advances or advances the goal of which is of sexual nature, sexual harassment the moment a sane and intelligent person can reasonably assume that a rejection or at least disinterest has been shown or is to be expected. It starts, to me, at shuffling after me with "Hey you" or chirping at me like I'm a cat, after I've ignored the first "Hi" or walked away. When I reject your first offer of a drink, you need to go away. When I pretend not to hear you, you need to go away. When I get my phone out to pretend to make a call, you need to go away. When I turn my face from you, you need to go away.
However, sometimes it only takes the first advance to be harassment. If you approach me in a way that you can reasonably assume is offensive or at least off-putting, you've made a mistake. Once this guy walked up and asked if he could try my ass. That's an instant harassment, as is slowly driving your car alongside me flapping your gums as I walk my dog. If you can't park it, get out, and politely say you like me and would like to invite me for coffee, you've made a mistake. If you're absolutely disgusting and can reasonably assume to unsettle me, like smelling of a bottle of vodka and a rotting fish farm from your mouth, 3 weeks no shower from your armpits, and your teeth are 50 Shades of Meth, and I am the opposite of that, then WTF man?

Sexual harassment, to me, must be targeted though. I don't feel sexually harassed when some guy or even the boss at work, tells a coworker to eat his dick (this happened...), or mentions his latest lays. If it's not about me, I don't need to feel harassed. You can walk with your dick out, as long as you leave me alone, and I wouldn't know why it should affect me. But if I need to do more than set my lips in a tight line and look away when you're talking to ME, we're done. I want any advances to cease the moment it can be reasonably assumed that I am not interested. There is this garden variety idiot on OKCupid who goes like this:
Hi
Hi there beautiful
Hey where are you?
Hellooo?
You there?
You're a snob.
Come ooooooon what is your deal ????
If this was real life I'd either hit him or threaten to call the cops at the third attempt. I don't want to have to go to the trouble of blocking or verbally rejecting people. To me, as an introverted, slightly autistic person with some social anxiety, it is extremely exhausting to come up with any response at all to advances that don't contain actual conversation material. So 100 "Hi sup?" are very stressful for me to deal with so I ignore them. I simply don't understand why people don't realize that not 1, but 2 or more messages or real life advances going unanswered, means they need to leave you alone.

Similarly for pestering for a phone number... It's not because I end up giving it to you after some nagging, that I want you to call. It's like "consent" becoming questionable when the nagging for sex has reached a point where the other person is simply exhausted and wants the situation to end in one way or another. Nagging me for my number, puts enormous pressure and distress on me, so if a presumable rejection like "I don't know my own number/I'm taken/I don't have time/Nah" doesn't get me out of the situation and I start feeling the stress or even coughing, I am forced to give the number because I physically cannot get aggressive unless an approach is hostile in nature. It's either caving or choking on a coughing fit. I was once forced to subscribe to a consumer magazine when a street marketer of said zine blocked my path and kept yapping at me what a great subscription it is. He ignored that I started coughing and my eyes watering and my knees bending, and I nearly literally asphixiated. So I signed. Coerced consent isn't consent, whether it's a subscription, giving your number, or spreading your legs. An intelligent person (homo sapiens) knows that inherently.
Like, when you get what you want under such circumstances, ie. by pestering someone into it, how do you, as a sane person, mistake that for an invitation? When I was a teenager, my mother was struggling financially and held out on my reward money for weightloss. I insisted on getting it. She was crying when she caved. I did not feel happy to get that money, and I felt bad to spend it. Why would a grown man who does not think himself a rapist, use something obtained from a woman he had to bully into giving him? Shouldn't that have been obvious?

I also consider it sexual harassment to make advances when I can be reasonably assumed to be helpless or afraid to reject them. I was hospitalized once and the head nurse, a horrible, abusive person, walked up and had a look at my Obama tee. She pulled it tight so his eyes were on my tits, and said, "If you pull it over your boobs like this, he has bulgy eyes haha". Sadly I knew calling her out tends to get me into a sensory deprivation cell, so I just had to take it. That does not make it any less of a harassment. Tolerating something out of physical, learned, statutory, or mental helplessness, isn't consent and advancing constitutes harassment.

I know this makes me seem oversensitive and bitchy to many people. But no matter how true that may be as compared to "the norm", it is my limit and I show it. Wherever the limit manifests, it needs to be respected.

Regardless of a legal definition, my person definition includes the behavior in the OP.

A person expresses sexual interest -- and it can be mild, like asking for a phone number -- in another person. Second person says no. If first person persists, that begins to be harrassment. I have felt harrassed by that kind of persistence more times than I can count. It gets real old.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Customer: "I don't care. I'm not leaving 'til I get it." Seriously doesn't leave. Like, waits around in the store for hours.

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Here's an interesting question for this, but I'll focus here mostly because it's the most important part for me.

DID HE BUY ANYTHING?

If he just came in to talk to her, then refused to leave because she didn't give out a number, he could be thrown from the store for loitering. If he was a paying customer who just happened to also be a jackass, then I can see harassment and the management has a duty to make sure their employees are safe.

If he truly is a customer, making purchases etc, then he's the management's problem.
If he didn't spend any money in the establishment, I can see the management not wanting to be involved (wrongly) but she'll need something like a restraining order to be free of him fully, I think.

Some people just don't understand a simple two letter word. I swear.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Customer: "I don't care. I'm not leaving 'til I get it." Seriously doesn't leave. Like, waits around in the store for hours.

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What a clown.

Ravioli said:

Sadly I knew calling her out tends to get me into a sensory deprivation cell, so I just had to take it.

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How is she still employed?

Ravioli said:

I know this makes me seem oversensitive and bitchy to many people. But no matter how true that may be as compared to "the norm", it is my limit and I show it. Wherever the limit manifests, it needs to be respected.

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I'm not one of those people. As someone who likes to be left alone, I enjoyed this post.

Well, first of all, there may be a difference between what legally counts as sexual harassment within the workplace and what counts as sexual harassment in a broader sense. To be honest, I'm not really sure how the law applies to customers being sexually harassed by customers. Legally, sexual harassment can have two forms: 1. Pressure to give sexual favors to curry professional favor and 2. the creation of a hostile work environment by permitting unwanted advances or sexualized behavior that may make people uncomfortable (like telling dirty jokes in the break room). Legally, does a workplace have a responsibility to intervene if an employee is being sexually harassed by a non-employee? I'm not sure, to be honest. The tricky thing is that while in some cases harassment from customers occurs solely within the confines of an employee-customer relationship (for example, a stranger makes a creepy comment to a cashier while checking out), there are also cases where employees are harassed by people whom they have outside relationships with or whom they interact with outside the capacity of employee and customer (for example, a woman's estranged boyfriend comes into the store to bother her, or an employee flirts with a customer but the customer starts acting in a creepy or intrusive way).

I suspect that some companies, like the one in the OP, might be concerned largely about the latter sort of situation. There can be a concern, I think, about employees' non-work-related personal issues causing a disturbance.

But on an ethical level, I think it's important to show support for employees who are being harassed, stalked, or threatened, especially if it's by a customer. Nobody should have to feel unsafe at work.

If this company is discouraging people from filing complaints about harassment from coworkers, though, that's definitely a lawsuit waiting to happen.

SomethingOrOther said:

How is she still employed?

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Because a complaint from a however lucid person in a mental institution is just crazy talk.

One of the biggest problems in determining harassment (or worse, trying to get help with it) is that often the harassers are the ones defining the term.

There was a video that went around YouTube a while back of a guy at (I think) ComiCon who was going through the lines randomly picking women up. (Literally lifting them off the ground, not trying to get a date.) He'd made a compilation to show how they were laughing, so they obviously thought it was a fun idea, etc. When someone pointed out that there are different kinds of laughter, and that the women in the video were exhibiting a nervous form of laughter, rather than enjoyment, AND that their faces were nervous / looking for the source of trouble and/or help from the crowd, the guy lost it. Everyone was "misinterpreting" what he'd done. Putting his hands on total strangers and pretending to carry them away was fine because he didn't have any ill intentions and people were supposed to just know that, etc. There was a fair bit of name-calling directed at the (mostly female) people who called him out.

He was very lucky that none of the women he grabbed were the kind to react violently or happened to be in line with friends/family who would react violently.

This wouldn't be sexual harassment in the workplace the same as a employee harassing another. In other words, the place she works for can't fire him for the simple reason that he doesn't work there. They can call the cops. While they may not be able to do much, the idea of it might help. It may cross into criminal behavior, but that would depend on the laws, how their written. It's definitely in the creepy area.

If it's ongoing and the store does nothing, that might be sexual harassment however. They have a responsibility to protect her as best they can within the law. They should have asked him to leave.

This thread is very weird and distressing to me. Maybe it depends on the company, but all the places I've worked had a very clear harassment policy, which applied to both employees and customers. I had a similar situation to what Liosse described in the OP last year, although he was less of an ass about it and the conversation ended with me going, "How about you give me YOUR number and I'll call YOU, maybe, eventually (but probably not), and if you'll please stop talking now because I am WORKING." Then I went immediately to my supervisor and told her what happened. She was perfectly supportive and was ready to ask him to leave if it got weird, which it didn't. Actually, I haven't seen him since. The fact that both my supervisor and the manager of the building AND the director of the company are all women probably matters a lot, although I hate to think that.

See - my problem is that men like this are ruining this for people like me. My line of work is security and I used to work at a mall. There, I've seen a lot of things. One major service that we provided was vehicle escorts. Not surprisingly, one store that we provided it for more than others was Victoria's Secret. I'd hear a lot of stories about ex-boyfriends who are stalking them,random guys who find the girls to be cute and wouldn't leave them alone. Hell, my first day I worked there, I've dealt with a guy who reportedly looked 20, taking pictures of 15 year old girls in the store. When we caught up with him, we checked his ID. He was 30.

My problem is that knowing all this, back when I was single, I had a hard time approaching a girl and expressing interest. I kept thinking about how that girl would see a guy walk up and think, "Oh, someone is here to constantly harass and stalk me." I think of how much easier it would be to meet someone if men didn't damage ladies to PTSD levels.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Why are we as a society allowing this stuff to happen, and refusing to help the victims? Do most people believe this is acceptable behavior? Do they just not care if it doesn't happen to them?

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What makes you think that as a society, we are allowing this to happen and refusing to help the victims?

Liosse de Velishaf said:

My friend: "No, but my boyfriend has a policy about me giving guys my number." Customer: "I don't care. I'm not leaving 'til I get it." Seriously doesn't leave. Like, waits around in the store for hours.

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It says a lot that women are afforded so little respect/agency that they are stuck invoking a boyfriend just to get another man to accept the word "no." It's even worse when that sad and self-negating tactic fails.

His behavior was harassment, and the hanging around was threatening. Continuing to give unwanted attention after clear rejection, hanging around waiting for you to be alone, approaching menacingly and/or following someone around are all forms of rape threat.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Similar, worse, and slightly lesser versions of this have happened to many of my female friends on multiple occasions. What makes it worse is obviously the guy knows where she(they) work(s), so she can't avoid him. Literally every single employer has told my friends they can't complain, shouldn't call the cops, will probably get fired if they make a stink. This happens with customers and co-workers. All my friends are younger women between 16 and 25. (I'm sure it happens to older women, as well, but I don't have any experience with that.)

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The employers are in the wrong here. I am sometimes harassed by crude guys at events in this male-dominated industry. I am allowed, even encouraged, to bend back the harasser's fingers. When that doesn't work my coworkers may step in tell the harasser to step off. Having been in this situation more than once, I am so grateful for my terrific coworkers who will uphold the dignity of team members even when the "customer" refuses to respect that. Our company doesn't need anyone's money enough to tolerate putting any employee's dignity, let alone their safety, on the line.

"The customer is always right" is a cowardly excuse for not letting employees stand up for themselves. If the customer stuck his hand in the till, is he still "always right"? If he starts knocking down displays, is he still "always right"? If he drops his pants and craps in the middle of the shop, is he still "always right"?

I didn't think so. So now that we've established that the customer really isn't always right, why not extend that to the customer stalking, harassing or threatening an employee?

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Do people just not view this as sexual harassment?

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I'm kind of stunned by a few replies here that claimed it wasn't harassment. IMO, if the employer is insisting the employee tolerate this behavior because, hey MONEY! then the employer is fostering the problem out out greed. ETA: While it differs from the kind of workplace harassment the employer can address by disciplining an employee, it's important to keep in mind that the employer has the power to "fire" customers as well.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Why are we as a society allowing this stuff to happen, and refusing to help the victims?

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Because it's easier to blame the victims and tell them to suck it up than it is to deal with her harasser and suck up a few lost sales.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Do most people believe this is acceptable behavior? Do they just not care if it doesn't happen to them?

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I think what we have here is institutionalized misogyny and internalized misogyny.

RichardGarfinkle said:

In practical terms, the workplace environment generally requires its employees to remain on-site during work hours. Many also require a friendly demeanor toward customers and the general public.

That creates a situation where a harassing customer can do whatever he or she wants to that bothers an employee. The company by its policies is creating an environment in which the standard responses to abuse (leaving, objecting, or yelling for help) are forbidden. That's a hostile work environment.

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I agree. Shame on the employers who allow this.

Roger J Carlson said:

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Literally every single employer has told my friends they can't complain, shouldn't call the cops, will probably get fired if they make a stink.
...
Why are we as a society allowing this stuff to happen, and refusing to help the victims? Do most people believe this is acceptable behavior? Do they just not care if it doesn't happen to them?

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Rhoda Nightingale said:

Maybe it depends on the company, but all the places I've worked had a very clear harassment policy, which applied to both employees and customers.

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What makes you think that as a society, we are allowing this to happen and refusing to help the victims?

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Apparently there are two parallel societies here, one where harassers are prevalent and all employers suck when it comes to taking care of their most valuable asset, a well-trained employee, and a different world where employers step up in those cases when harassment happens.

I'd recommend that if one discovers they live in the former world, they pack their bags and move to the latter. It may reek of victim-blaming, but if you're working for an employer who's an asshole who lets assholes abuse you, it's time to find a new job. Obviously not every employer is like that, but if people keep working for asshole employers, there's nothing to convince them to change their ways.

It may be tough finding a job where you and your talents are respected, but it's got to be easier than being constantly harassed and abused. Staying with an abusive employer makes no more sense than staying with an abusive spouse, and it simply perpetuates the problem.

Don said:

Apparently there are two parallel societies here, one where harassers are prevalent and all employers suck when it comes to taking care of their most valuable asset, a well-trained employee, and a different world where employers step up in those cases when harassment happens.

I'd recommend that if one discovers they live in the former world, they pack their bags and move to the latter. It may reek of victim-blaming, but if you're working for an employer who's an asshole who lets assholes abuse you, it's time to find a new job. Obviously not every employer is like that, but if people keep working for asshole employers, there's nothing to convince them to change their ways.

It may be tough finding a job where you and your talents are respected, but it's got to be easier than being constantly harassed and abused. Staying with an abusive employer makes no more sense than staying with an abusive spouse, and it simply perpetuates the problem.

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Don'tcha love the smell of privilege in the morning?