The problematic epic fantasy rape cliche [TRIGGER WARNING]

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MacAllister

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And interesting and pertinent essay from stand-up comic Patton Oswalt:
So that’s how I saw the whole “rape joke” controversy. And, again, my view was based on my experience as a comedian. 25 years experience, you know? This was about censorship, and the limits of comedy, and the freedom to create and fuck up while you hone what you create.

But remember what I was talking about, in the first two sections of this? In the “Thievery” section and then the “Heckling” section? About how people only bring their own perceptions and experiences to bear when reacting to something? And, since they’re speaking honestly from their experience, they truly think they’re correct? Dismissive, even? See if any of these sound familiar:

There’s no “evidence” of a “rape culture” in this country. I’ve never wanted to rape anyone, so why am I being lumped in as the enemy? If these bloggers and feminists make “rape jokes” taboo, or “rape” as a subject off-limits no matter what the approach, then it’ll just lead to more censorship.

They sure sound familiar to me because I, at various points, was saying them. Either out loud, or to myself, or to other comedian and non-comedian friends when we would argue about this. I had my viewpoint, and it was based on solid experience, and it…was…fucking…wrong.

Let’s go backwards through those bullshit conclusions, shall we? First off: no one is trying to make rape, as a subject, off-limits. No one is talking about censorship. In this past week of re-reading the blogs, going through the comment threads, and re-scrolling the Twitter arguments, I haven’t once found a single statement, feminist or otherwise, saying that rape shouldn’t be joked under any circumstance, regardless of context. Not one example of this.

In fact, every viewpoint I’ve read on this, especially from feminists, is simply asking to kick upward, to think twice about who is the target of the punchline, and make sure it isn’t the victim.
 

Roxxsmom

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I'm just adding my thoughts as to some of the possible motivations and reasons behind why people use rape as an ill-considered plot device. i'm also urging that everyone, including myself, consider all things in their writing which could potentially upset others, which seems to be being taken as a slight against the people on here. Which is not my intention. Just that it's easy to use certain devices in fiction as easy sources of conflict, without even realising it and urging caution, which isn't the same as saying i believe you all just vomit over paper and call it a story. Just that it's much easier to recognise other people's transgressions than our own. It's something we should all be wary of.

I agree with you that most of the time when a writer of either sex misrepresents rape, or uses it in a casual or poorly thought out way, he or she did not mean to be hurtful, and was not consciously making a statement about the value of women or their proper role in society or in fiction in general.

I think pretty much everyone posting in this thread agrees with this.

But I personally do think that rape, more than murder or other violent acts, tends to be misunderstood, and often misrepresented, even by otherwise well-meaning people.

I guess you disagree with me here and feel that other violent crimes are similarly misunderstood/trivialized by our society and our legal system as a whole and are also abused, overused, misinterpreted and misrepresented by writers to the same degree rape is.

It may be that the best place to have this discussion would be to start a thread about the ways in which murder (or some other violent crimes that are not rape) are overused as tropes or are often portrayed or misrepresented in a way that is upsetting because it mirrors a societal misunderstanding or mislabeling of the crime and its victims/perpetrators.

I don't think most AW members would object to such a thread, and it might even be interesting and instructive to learn whether or not some readers feel that various portrayals of murder, assault etc. are overused as tropes or whether they can be triggers for people who have been touched by such crimes in their own lives, and whether some ways of portraying violence of other kinds works better than others.

But it seems like the thrust of this thread has shifted from whether and how to accurately portray rape and its consequences in stories to a discussion of whether or not rape is worse than any other violent crime and whether or not other forms of violence in fiction are as potentially hurtful and should be held to the same scrutiny as rape.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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It may be that the best place to have this discussion would be to start a thread about the ways in which murder (or some other violent crimes that are not rape) are overused as tropes or are often portrayed or misrepresented in a way that is upsetting because it mirrors a societal misunderstanding or mislabeling of the crime and its victims/perpetrators.
I would be very interested in that discussion, but it definitely should have its own thread because it would be a derail of this one.
 

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But I personally do think that rape, more than murder or other violent acts, tends to be misunderstood, and often misrepresented, even by otherwise well-meaning people.

I like to think of myself as well meaning. And frankly, depending on your viewpoint, I've probably fucked up on this -- I've had a couple of very nice emails for a couple of ladies re certain aspects of my book, which they thought I'd handled positively. And elsewhere I've been roundly denounced for exactly the same aspects. I was expecting it, tbh, because I know that you can't please everyone, that it's a sensitive issue and everyone brings their own opinions and I can't control that. But I can control my writing, so I've tried to learn from those. The more viewpoints you get, the more rounded a picture. And sometimes you have to hold your hands up and say, yup, maybe I fucked up. I shall endeavor to do better next time.

I don't expect any writer, male or female, to get it right every time, or get it right according to how I see things. But it's nice if you get a sense they appreciate the arguments

BTW, Joe Abercrombie's response in that thread is class, and a good example of that.
 

ClareGreen

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I'd just like to thank the people in this thread who had a reasoned and sensible discussion, and our wonderful Mods for keeping it that way. I've been reminded of some of the reasons I'm writing what I write, and I've taken a good long look at my work - and at the inside of my own head - through a lens held by others.

A little bit more has become clear. A reminder of who I am, and why. Another step towards recovery.

Thank you.
 

Honest Bill

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But I personally do think that rape, more than murder or other violent acts, tends to be misunderstood, and often misrepresented, even by otherwise well-meaning people.

I guess you disagree with me here and feel that other violent crimes are similarly misunderstood/trivialized by our society and our legal system as a whole and are also abused, overused, misinterpreted and misrepresented by writers to the same degree rape is.

I don't disagree with you here actually. maybe you're right about that. i'd say other acts of violence are used more often than rape, certainly in the fiction that i've read but of course that's not to say they have been equally misrepresented and misinterpreted. Nor was my original intent to assign values to this, more to the attitudes behind the misrepresentation of all of them, which i do feel stems from the same root.

It may be that the best place to have this discussion would be to start a thread about the ways in which murder (or some other violent crimes that are not rape) are overused as tropes or are often portrayed or misrepresented in a way that is upsetting because it mirrors a societal misunderstanding or mislabeling of the crime and its victims/perpetrators.

That's a good idea, i will have a look at starting one later and see what the general views are. That would be quite an interesting discussion.


But it seems like the thrust of this thread has shifted from whether and how to accurately portray rape and its consequences in stories to a discussion of whether or not rape is worse than any other violent crime and whether or not other forms of violence in fiction are as potentially hurtful and should be held to the same scrutiny as rape.

Yes, i can see that has happened, and i apologise for that. It was never my intent to detract from what is definitely a very serious issue, nor was it my intent to deflect the discussion away from rape, or to insinuate anything about other people's writing.

I am most definitely guilty here of thinking out loud (or whatever the internet equivalent of that is) and perhaps i am also guilty of projecting my own fears about my own perceptions and possible lack of sensitivity in the way i have thought about fiction writing, on to the members of this forum. I apologise for that too.

So in the spirit of getting this topic back on track. I have some questions to revisit in order to re-focus the discussion

Since we can all agree that rape isn't something to be treated lightly, and given its potentially upsetting nature, should not be used as a cheap way of creating instant character depth or world 'grittiness'

How should it be approached? if at all. I agree that it should only be used if one has a good reason to do so, which begs the question, what are some good reasons to include rape in a story? How can we be sure we're not using it cheaply, and what are some alternative ways to go about it to ensure we are treating it with full consideration.

We can say that it should only be included if it is necessary to the story. But i found myself in agreement with the quote from Chuck Wendig which was posted earlier, which basically states that stories are not their own entities which exist independently of the author's wishes, and in fact we are responsible for what we include. So is it ever necessary to include it?
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I think the questions Honest Bill is asking are a bit too simplistic to answer directly. The problem (as humorously pointed toward in Mac's quotes from Patton Oswald) is that rape culture is just that, part of the culture.

People are very bad at seeing the hidden assumptions within their own cultures. To my mind, the principle assumption in rape culture is one that is also present in a number of slave owning cultures, that one group of people get to use another group for their own ends or wants.

The society may or may not have justifications for this attitude, but it doesn't need them to maintain it. Attitudes like this are passed along by the unchallenged exercise of those attitudes.

Culturally, there is a view that women are sexually usable (note, not available, usable), that they are, on a sexual level, not people, but tools to be used.

A great deal of rape culture lies in trying to maintain this perspective.
 

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I think rape is something a person would want to keep secret, that person would be humiliated and generally would put the blame on themselves, maybe they should have said/acted/worn something else.
I feel that having your female character raped to have dramatic tension with your MC seems a bit frivolous, and maybe replacing it with something else would be better.
But if you think it's genuinely important to your story keep it in, I'd suggest reading survivor stories or something that would make her have genuine feelings, or just imagine how you would react to being raped, and maybe the idea she would try to make your MC feel bad would ring hollow.
I think it would fit better if she was angry at the MC the rape could have happened to someone she feels she should have saved (little sister/brother etc) then she could stomp off in the middle of the night.
With regard to how much detail of it to put in, I think describing how she felt and giving the reader an idea of what happened might make better reading, but that's just my personal opinion :)
 
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I think the questions Honest Bill is asking are a bit too simplistic to answer directly. The problem (as humorously pointed toward in Mac's quotes from Patton Oswald) is that rape culture is just that, part of the culture.

People are very bad at seeing the hidden assumptions within their own cultures. To my mind, the principle assumption in rape culture is one that is also present in a number of slave owning cultures, that one group of people get to use another group for their own ends or wants.

The society may or may not have justifications for this attitude, but it doesn't need them to maintain it. Attitudes like this are passed along by the unchallenged exercise of those attitudes.

Culturally, there is a view that women are sexually usable (note, not available, usable), that they are, on a sexual level, not people, but tools to be used.

A great deal of rape culture lies in trying to maintain this perspective.


Is the implication here that having a rape scene in a novel is using a woman in accordance with rape culture?
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Is the implication here that having a rape scene in a novel is using a woman in accordance with rape culture?

Not inherently. It's rather that cultural assumptions can be tricky to find both in oneself and in those one is writing for. Something with heavy cultural weight carries a great deal with it. This produces three problems.

1. It is, in many ways, easy to write something that accords with the cultural assumptions.

2. It takes a great deal of care to write around and against those assumptions.

3. We can't always see what the assumptions are, so that trying to write around and against can still carry forward those assumptions.
 

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Is the implication here that having a rape scene in a novel is using a woman in accordance with rape culture?

I didn't get that from this comment, more that including rape in a novel could also be a commentary on rape culture. But as a writer, I would be pretty mindful of why I included it and also how.

I don't generally like to speak for my entire gender, as we are all individuals, but I think it's safe to say that most women would really like to live in a world with no rape, or at least where it is not the dominant fear in the back of most women's' minds. I know I would certainly like to live in a world where rape is not considered justified or sympathetic. Ever.

Does that mean that every novel that features a "redeemable" rapist is sexist garbage? Not necessarily. I actually liked the Thomas Covenant books (at least the first three). But that crime upset me. It drove a wedge between me and the protagonist. I think it was meant to. It was also a hole he'd dug himself into with himself and his situation--one where the consequences haunted him for the entire trilogy.

Could Donaldson have portrayed a different crime, one that was equally unforgivable in the eyes of readers, but less imbalanced as per gender reactions? If he had, would it have worked as well? I don't know. I do know that the scene was a deal breaker for some people I know, and not all of them are women.

I do not know Donaldson, but from the way he portrayed it, I don't think he was an insensitive clod who was unaware of the emotional impact the scene would have on readers. I also would guess he thought it over at least somewhat.

I've also read portrayals of rape in other novels that did make me stop reading, or where I kept reading because I kept thinking, "Oh surely not! This writer is going to extricate/explain him or herself soon. Isn't he/she?"

So this was meandering (yeah I do that too much, meander that is), but the point is, women (and men), even when we agree about the true nature and horror of rape, may have different reactions to the ways this crime is portrayed in a story. Each victim of these crimes has a unique reaction/recovery as well.

Feelings are not right or wrong, but a writer should be aware of the different ways people may react to something he or she writes. As the previous post said, rape is something that is so integrated into our cultural assumptions and biases in some way, that it's particularly hard, perhaps, to portray it in a way that doesn't possibly reinforce at least some of the assumptions/stereotypes about it.

I've decided to go with not showing it in my current book, but it does exist in my world. I do have one scene where a male from another intelligent species (one where rape is essentially impossible, physically and psychologically) learns that humans can do this to one another. His reaction is one of incredulous horror.
 
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Canotila

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Just a warning, this is going to be a graphic triggery post.

It's very difficult to subject a viewpoint character to rape and stay true to the consequences of rape without making it a story about the rape and how that character tries to move on with their life afterward.

The comparison to murder and other crimes has been brought up. I will say this. For me personally, the two are not even remotely on the same playing field. I say this as someone whose very close friend was murdered by a creep who ran over her with a bulldozer, on purpose. I saw the photographs of my friend's mangled body, and the horror of that will never leave me. I'll never not cry when I think about it.

Just last year, a close cousin of mine was stabbed to death trying to break up a domestic violence dispute at his neighbor's house.

And in the last year, two guys I knew well enough to call friends, that I didn't hang out with regularly but were nice people I liked, were shot to death while sitting in a cafe minding their own business. They were musicians. I still have their CDs, and I still cry when I hear their voices.

The biggest difference between the two types of crimes is one happened to someone I care deeply about, and one happened, to me. I don't know what it feels like to have a knife blade driven into my chest, or my body crushed under a ton of gravel and then splintered by the track of a bulldozer. Or to hear shots ringing out around me and see my friend dying next to me and realize, I'm dying too. For people who have lived that, and survived it, I imagine reading about something along those lines would be triggery and unpleasant. Or they'd see that the author got it wrong or used it for a cheap thrill, and be frustrated, angry, and feel exploited.

I do know what it feels like to be held down against my will, my life threatened, and for another person to penetrate my body in ways that horrified, terrified, and made me feel utterly helpless, disgusting, etc. I can't even find adequate words without triggering myself at the moment. And then for that same person to break down crying afterward, blame me, and tell me they were going to kill themselves if I ever told anyone what I made them do, which set it up to happen again, and again, and again...

Which brings me to another point, which is that many rapists know their victims. We're taught all kinds of stranger danger as children, which is good but all my life I expected a rapist to be a hobo lurking in the bushes. Not a friend that was known, trusted, and generally nice to me and bought me presents. Sex predators often spend a great deal of time grooming their victims so that they have access to a person that they can exert total control over, and not worry that their victim is going to run and tell. It involves a great deal of abuse and manipulation, which is extremely damaging and difficult to recover from even without the rape aspect.

I do think that if I was there and witnessed those murders in person, and had those helpless horrified feelings as it happened before my eyes, I'd feel very differently about reading books with that kind of content. And it's not that I'd think they were horrible books, just that they wouldn't be something I could get through. Before I was raped, I knew people it had happened to, and it made me mad and sad. I hated the people who did that to them. But I could read a book where it happened and get through those scenes. I don't read those books any more.

I'm trying to word things in a way that brings it back to what I'm trying to say, and now I'm all out of sorts so please forgive me.

So this was meandering (yeah I do that too much, meander that is), but the point is, women (and men), even when we agree about the true nature and horror of rape, may have different reactions to the ways this crime is portrayed in a story. Each victim of these crimes has a unique reaction/recovery as well.

Feelings are not right or wrong, but a writer should be aware of the different ways people may react to something he or she writes. As the previous post said, rape is something that is so integrated into our cultural assumptions and biases in some way, that it's particularly hard, perhaps, to portray it in a way that doesn't possibly reinforce at least some of the assumptions/stereotypes about it.

I think Roxxsmom sums up my point here. When something deeply traumatizing happens to you personally, there's a large chance you're going to have things that trigger the feelings you felt when it happened. There are a large number of people who have been raped who also read books, so there's a decent chance a sizable chunk of your readership will be triggered or angered by the mishandling, or even the mere presence of it. Personally, I can read about people getting stabbed or hear about it on the news, and I feel a flash of sadness and think, poor Roger. But what happened to him doesn't impact my ability to function day to day. It doesn't give me the same visceral disgust and horror. I write about people being stabbed in my stories, and read them in other stories without having a break down.

To try and bring it around, an atrocity committed in the story should realistically impact the story. If someone is murdered in the story, it should have an impact. A single murder can drive the plot for an entire novel.

Same thing as with a war zone. What a horrible environment, and it should impact your character's life, outlook, and the story.

So why would rape be any different? To me it feels like some authors equate the assault of rape with the assault of getting knocked out in a bar fight, when in reality it's more like getting a shotgun blast to the chest and then that getting infected, then having trouble breathing for the rest of your life because of the damage the injury did.

Sorry if that kind of went off on a tangent. Hopefully something in there was useful and relevant.
 

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Thank you for the post, Canotila. I'm sorry for the awful things that have happened to you.

You make me wonder whether someone who doesn't understand triggering well enough to see the point of trigger warnings is likely to write a rape survivor well. Not that all rape survivors are prone to being triggered -- but if one doesn't understand the range of reactions well enough, how can one make a realistic choice among them?
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Canotila, thank you for that. It was a moving and difficult job to bring that forth, showing the vital distinctions between your reactions to depictions of murder and rape. I don't know how rough this was for you, but it was extraordinarily helpful.

As to the question of getting people to understand triggering, that can be done, because triggering is not a separate phenomenon. It's an extreme effect of the way all human memory works.

Human memory is associative. A memoriam, which can be any stimulus either external (sensory event) or internal (a thought), causes the mind to recall a memory. Memories are not brought back as the events exactly were because associations and later events pile on and make things more complex, but that's not the major point at the moment.

Every human being has a wealth of experiences of the process of human memory. We all know that associations (sometimes minor) can bring forth vast amounts of recollection.

We also know that some memories are overwhelming, that recalling them wipes everything else out of our thinking. Some overwhelming memories are wonderful (perfect moments, events of love, etc.), some are embarrassing (no need to list these), and some, for people who have lived through horrific events, are horrific. The last are brought out by triggering memoria.

I'm not sure anyone who has not been through such can fully understand what it's like.

But a person who can imagine the experience of horror can connect that imagination with their own experience of how memory works in order to understand the process of triggering.

With that understanding, it becomes easy to see the need for trigger warnings.
 

buz

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It's very difficult to subject a viewpoint character to rape and stay true to the consequences of rape without making it a story about the rape and how that character tries to move on with their life afterward. ....

To me it feels like some authors equate the assault of rape with the assault of getting knocked out in a bar fight, when in reality it's more like getting a shotgun blast to the chest and then that getting infected, then having trouble breathing for the rest of your life because of the damage the injury did.

First, Canotila, :Hug2: . I'm so sorry.

But thank you so much for sharing. The whole post is extremely helpful. I feel like the above is an incredibly vital point.
 

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Canotila, thank you very much for adding your incredibly strong and clear voice to this discussion. You have my admiration, and my sympathies.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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It's very difficult to subject a viewpoint character to rape and stay true to the consequences of rape without making it a story about the rape and how that character tries to move on with their life afterward.
This has always been the biggest factor in how I handle (or often avoid) rape in my stories. I'd have to be honest to the consequences I've witnessed in real life. And it could totally derail the story.

I'd like to think I don't dismiss the consequences of other types of violence in my stories. I've known war veterans in real life (including seeing the 'before and after' of several people forced to serve in the second Iraq war) and studied the psychological effects of different kinds of violence. I try to be true to this and don't glorify war like some fantasy authors.

But rape has special consequences, as I think any competent trauma psychologist would tell you. It's just simply not the same as being stabbed or shot in a fight. Anyone who argues that it is the same needs to study more.

Anyway, I don't handle rape carefully because I'm worried about hurting people's feelings. I handle it carefully (or not at all) because I don't want to write something cliché or flat out wrong.
 

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So why would rape be any different? To me it feels like some authors equate the assault of rape with the assault of getting knocked out in a bar fight, when in reality it's more like getting a shotgun blast to the chest and then that getting infected, then having trouble breathing for the rest of your life because of the damage the injury did.

This. This is exactly how I feel. Thank you for sharing, and I'm so very sorry that this happened to you.

I am a rape survivor. My rapist was my first husband, so yeah, someone I knew and trusted. I also wrote an epic fantasy trilogy where the MC is raped early on in the first book. Why? Lots of reasons. One is that I hated how many books portrayed rape as either 1) no big thing or 2) a mere plot device to motivate the guy.

It was damned hard to write. It was damned hard to read the copyedits and the galley proofs. In the end, I am content with the job I did. It won't work for everyone, and it *is* a major trigger since I didn't sugar coat the trauma. My MC blames herself, others blame her, and for a long time she can't even bring herself to call it rape. This happens all too often in real life. It happened to me. It has happened to friends of mine.

But the MC survives and heals and goes on to lead a life of her own choosing. That doesn't mean she doesn't get flashbacks. She does. It also doesn't mean that "rape survivor" is the start and end of that which defines her. (It can, though. I go through periods where all I can think about is what happened.)

And I think that one thing I was doing was to give my MC the kind of resolution that I will never have.

(Note: I might or might not come back to reply. Please don't be insulted. I just never know when I'll tip over from "fine, really" to "not fine.")
 

SWest

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...


(I'm looking at this from the trigger/poor handling perspective. There's obviously not the same gender imbalance issue with suicide/self-harm.)

I'm not completely certain of your thesis, but since my experience with both issues is long standing, I'll give you my FWIW.

I'm going to be as frank as I can, so skip it if anyone's had a bad day.



(highlight to read, but may be triggering)

Rape is a thing that is done to a subject, self-harm/suicide being something one does to oneself. Rape is an inciting event itself, psychologically speaking. Suicidal ideation/attempts & self-harm are most often symptoms of an undisclosed inciting event of some kind, and are more often the purview of pre-adult victims. I've generalize widely, but the psychological landscape of our species is vast.



My earliest fantasies about Ending Myself were rather magical in nature (so we're talking 3-6 years of age). And acted in some way as a replacement obsession with worries about tonight-or-not-tonight? Self-harm is easier: a very small child can bang her head on the wall or floor until body awareness fades.

Once obsessive thoughts about death can translate into behavior, things rather quickly become compulsive. But there are no rational thoughts linking on-going trauma, impulses toward self-harm/ending and the future.


Which brings me to how I feel these two issues are kinda different in storytelling:


Rape culture is designed to subjugate people via direct, personal harm. The entire scheme is maladaptive and unsociable.

The taboos against talking/writing openly and rationally about rape culture and individual attack aim to deflect attention away from the cultural/political strategy and onto the target population. Women should know and keep their place at all times. Men of lesser privilege must comport themselves in front of their betters as women. Children are property, and shall acquiesce at all costs.



Taboos surrounding suicide and self-harm are strangely enough, IMO, more sociable.

That is, the pre-adult brain is susceptible to taking them on as coping strategies, but unable to process outcomes of actions. The obsessive-compulsive nature of these coping methods are super-resistant to rational analysis and reversal.

Since we still do not know how to counteract this susceptibility, society has defaulted to not discussing suicide/self-harm generally. This has made it hard to gather information and generate truthful narrative. Though both are badly needed.



 
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SWest

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I don't really have a thesis.

Totally FWIW, then. For sure. :D

I'm certainly in favor of opening society and writing about all taboo subjects. They do have their own distinctive features and subtleties which make them hard to generalize together where approach and execution are concerned.
 

Flicka

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I know I'm late, but two things that I reflected on while reading this thread:

1) I find there is an ongoing sort of fetishisation of violence against women going on in modern pop culture of which I find the treatment in fantasy and sci-fi to be one symptom of. Look at crimes series on tv; look at books about serial killers. Look at how they treat violence against women – rape and murder, IMO – and compare how they treat violence – almost solely murder – against men. It seems to me that the elaborate, the sexually charged (not necessarily sexual in nature, but sexual or almost sensual in approach) violence is always directed against women, and it disturbs me. Women are quite often reduced to objects, not just by the villain, but by how the narrative treats them and their experiences. It's not that I don't think horrid crimes happen IRL, it's just that I wonder what it says about how we view women in our society in order to find that narrative tilt normal entertainment. To question that is, I think, extremely important.

2) There is such an enormous, unintentional and unthinking ethnocentrism in modern Western society. People always talk about historical authenticity, yet they seem completely unaware of how much of their own culture they bring into fantasy, sci-fi and the past. I rarely see anyone genuinely managing to correctly depict a different mentality (and that includes one that would be historically correct for the European Middle Ages). What you tend to have is 21st C Americans in chain mail, raping and pillaging. That's not authenticity. That's costuming. And in fact I think that is the whole problem with the lazy treatment of rape in SFF – not that it is treated in a way that would be accurate for an alien (and I mean foreign, not extraterrestrial) culture, but because the way that it is treated is so very typical for modern Western society that it is one of the factors that makes me feel that SFF writers (in general) need to learn more about what is actually culture-specific and what is general human experience in order to create believable fantasy. If I read epic fantasy, I don't want to sense the presence of a modern day fantasy writer in sweatpants lurking in the text. I want something foreign. I want fantasy. I'm sorry so few writers can deliver that, and I do think that this sort of debate where we discuss our own cultural bias can help us write better fantasy.
 

Menyanthana

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2) There is such an enormous, unintentional and unthinking ethnocentrism in modern Western society. People always talk about historical authenticity, yet they seem completely unaware of how much of their own culture they bring into fantasy, sci-fi and the past. I rarely see anyone genuinely managing to correctly depict a different mentality (and that includes one that would be historically correct for the European Middle Ages). What you tend to have is 21st C Americans in chain mail, raping and pillaging. That's not authenticity. That's costuming. And in fact I think that is the whole problem with the lazy treatment of rape in SFF – not that it is treated in a way that would be accurate for an alien (and I mean foreign, not extraterrestrial) culture, but because the way that it is treated is so very typical for modern Western society that it is one of the factors that makes me feel that SFF writers (in general) need to learn more about what is actually culture-specific and what is general human experience in order to create believable fantasy. If I read epic fantasy, I don't want to sense the presence of a modern day fantasy writer in sweatpants lurking in the text. I want something foreign. I want fantasy. I'm sorry so few writers can deliver that, and I do think that this sort of debate where we discuss our own cultural bias can help us write better fantasy.

Maybe it's off topic, but what mentality do you think would be correct for the European Middle Ages, regarding rape, and how does it differ from that depicted in fantasy?

I rather got the impression that the perception of rape has changed surprisingly little since the Middle Ages.
 

Roxxsmom

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I don't know if this post might be triggering to some people. Nothing graphic here, but I am about to talk to some historic injustices and outrages regarding these kinds of crimes.






One example is that in the middle ages (or in most times and places until quite recently), it wasn't considered rape for a husband to force his wife, and I would guess that the concept of acquaintance rape in general would be pretty contracted. Once a woman consented to a man, or gave him "reason" to believe she would consent, she probably was blamed for what happened to her to an even greater degree than she is today.

And if a man was of much higher social status than a woman, she was expected to suck it up too. Again, this still happens today in some cases. I would argue that the social status of the perpetrators in some of these cases where entire sporting programs and communities collude to cover up crimes by their favorite sons would be an example of the modern-day lordlings of the manor riding rough-shod over the peasants.

And though some of these cases have come to light in recent years, thanks to the near ubiquitousness of cameras and the penchant some of these people have for bragging about their exploits on social media, I'd guess that many more still are just never reported.

A child or teen-aged girl may be as afraid to tell her parents about his or her attack today as she would have been centuries ago, though maybe for different reasons.

In the bad old days, there were often very harsh penalties (even death or dismemberment) under circumstances when a man was convicted of rape by the standards of the time, but it was often because rape was seen as a crime against the woman's "owner" rather than a crime against her.

And at the other end of the spectrum, sometimes the penalty simply was that the man had to pay reparations to the woman's husband/father or closest male relative for "sullying" his possession.

All this doesn't mean that a woman wouldn't still be devastated by what had happened to her, or not feel that her trust in people and confidence in herself were shaken to the core. It doesn't mean that she might not experience PTSD, depression and other long-term mental problems (even if society had no name for or understanding of them). I'm not sure it's correct to assume that just because church and state said it was okay in these circumstances that it felt okay to women--simply that they would receive even less support (emotional and legal) as victims than they do now.

For all these reasons, I'd guess that many, possibly most, women suffered in silence, just as so many do now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape

In some pre-industrial cultures, women were even blamed for stranger rape, and were sometimes punished as adulteresses.

And of course, a woman who was raped was considered to have been "dishonored" and might be considered "damaged goods," even if she was held blameless in the crime.

I'm the first to admit that my pre-industrial settings do employ some of the "dress up" factor. Many of my characters have sensibilities that are not medieval (or renaissance or classical or whatever) to the core. The cultures I portray in my stories are not trying to be copies of real world historic cultures, even if they're riding horses and using swords or muskets.

Maybe it's down to my limitations as a writer, but I'd have a hard time figuring out how to make people and societies with completely historic attitudes about things like rape, cruelty to animals, torture, slavery, child abuse, domestic violence, gender roles, social class etc. sympathetic to modern readers, or maybe more important, someone I want to write about personally.

But also, one of the fun things about fantasy is the fact that we can mix and match elements from different cultures and eras.

So I build my world so I can present my people, characters, cultures and institutions as mixed bags that hopefully make sense within their own context, at least. Most of the fantasy I enjoy does something similar.

And just as a note, though I focused on females as victims in this post, many of the same problems might occur with male victims too.
 
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