legality of quoting song lyrics

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Tornadoboy

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This is probably a dumb question, but what are the legalities for using attributed song lyrics in your writing? Something I'm writing now lists five or six lines (may trim it to four) from a song, they are quoted in the context of being ironic to the scene as MC1 & 2 notice them playing in the background, and they get their attribution (title and band) from MC1 when she recognizes the song.
 

scarlet

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Took the words right out of my mouth Tornadoboy, I was just about to ask the same question because I want to use a couple of lines of a song lyric for my poem. I won't elaborate further in case it seems as if I'm hijacking your post. I'll just await your replies with bated breath!
 

Maryn

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You absolutely can't use song lyrics in your work without written permission. Getting it takes years (and sometimes money as well).

You can use song titles, but not their lyrics.

Maryn, who's positive on this (and little else)
 

Julie Worth

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Tornadoboy said:
This is probably a dumb question, but what are the legalities for using attributed song lyrics in your writing? Something I'm writing now lists five or six lines (may trim it to four) from a song, they are quoted in the context of being ironic to the scene as MC1 & 2 notice them playing in the background, and they get their attribution (title and band) from MC1 when she recognizes the song.

You don't have to worry about getting sued for quoting lyrics because the mere presence of lyrics in your ms will result in instant rejection by editors.

 

Tornadoboy

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Oh well, but I suspected as much and can't say I blame the artists.
However I think I know how to work around it without actually using direct quotes, in thought MC2 will mention the title, artists, and what the song is about without getting too specific. Would have been a lot funnier to use the actual lyrics though. :(
For the record, the song in question was "Used to Love Her" by Guns 'N' Roses, and trust me its appropriate for what MC1 had just gone through.

"I used to love her"
"Ooooh yeah, but I had to kill her"

Ok sue me.
 
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Tornadoboy

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Oh I'm sure its possible if I spend enough cash, G'N'R wants dough like anyone else but I was just hoping that somehow using a few lines wasn't considered a big deal in the business, however I pretty much knew the answer to that even before posting. Heck some songs only have a couple of lines of lyrics, which is why I more or less knew it was a silly question.
 

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I'm not sure if they're still in business, but the Harry Fox agency used to do this for people (for a fee), and they did it quicker and cheaper, from what I have heard.
 

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couldn't you paraphrase something like

"and he remembered snatches from a song that fit his mood so well, something about loving her, but having to kill her"
 

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If your story depends on those few lines it isn't much of a story.

Consider if your story is published, and someone twenty years from now reads it. Will the reference make sense? Fifty years from now? A hundred?
 

willietheshakes

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Julie Worth said:
You don't have to worry about getting sued for quoting lyrics because the mere presence of lyrics in your ms will result in instant rejection by editors.


This is not true.
 

janetbellinger

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I've already taken lyrics out of my current novel. As appropriate as they may be, I know I'd have to pay to use them. The cost of it would make POD publishing look by a bargain in comparison. I've deleted lyrics and am just using titles, and in one place I have a couple singing along with the lyrics, but I let the reader see the lyrics in her mind, rather than printing them.
 

Julie Worth

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willietheshakes said:
This is not true.

Perhaps not all the time, but why take that chance? Here's a quote from an editor: "Quoting song lyrics in your manuscript without written permission from the songwriter can lead to no-questions-asked rejection. Publishers are extremely reluctant to print song lyric quotes for anyone other than best-selling authors. It's both troublesome and costly to gain permission to do so, and they're simply not willing to do so for a first novel."
 

willietheshakes

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I wasn't objecting to the sentiment, or to the reality, merely to the blanket nature of your statement. Having sold a novel in several countries which included song lyrics, I knew it not to be as cut and dry as you were indicating. Even the note from the editor which you quoted wasn't nearly so unequivocal as you were: "can lead .. extremely reluctant ..."
 

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Tornadoboy said:
Oh I'm sure its possible if I spend enough cash, G'N'R wants dough like anyone else but I was just hoping that somehow using a few lines wasn't considered a big deal in the business...

Axl Rose has shown himself to be a level-headed, conscientious person over the years, so maybe if you'll ask nicely he'll let you use the lyrics gratis.

Then again, he might be hard to track down, hard at work as he is on G'N'R's forthcoming album.




Sorry, couldn't resist.
biggrin.gif
 

Jamesaritchie

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willietheshakes said:
This is not true.



With many editors, it is, indeed, true. I know several editors who will instantly reject any fiction containing copyrighted song lyrics. This didn't used to be the case, but copyright law has changed, and it is the case now.

And while there are always exceptions, while some few editors will not reject fiction with song lyrics instantly, I doubt if there's an editor out there anywhere who looks on them favorably. As James M. says, it is at least two strikes against you, and I'd add they're needless strikes because there is no real reason to include copyright song lyrics in your fiction.

Song lyrics are, at best one more headache, one more needless problem, and one large cause for concern.
 

willietheshakes

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Jamesaritchie said:
With many editors, it is, indeed, true. I know several editors who will instantly reject any fiction containing copyrighted song lyrics. This didn't used to be the case, but copyright law has changed, and it is the case now.

And while there are always exceptions, while some few editors will not reject fiction with song lyrics instantly, I doubt if there's an editor out there anywhere who looks on them favorably. As James M. says, it is at least two strikes against you, and I'd add they're needless strikes because there is no real reason to include copyright song lyrics in your fiction.

Song lyrics are, at best one more headache, one more needless problem, and one large cause for concern.

For the record -- and I think I already said this, but it may have been overlooked -- I wasn't disagreeing with the sentiment, or with the reality of the current state of copyright, etc. I was dealing with the across-the-board, cut-and-dry statement which I knew, from personal experience, to be untrue. I know, for a stone fact, that manuscripts are bought which contain copyrighted song lyrics. I know this to be true because mine was. Now, I may be the exception to the rule (God knows I have been before!), but to say that inclusion of song lyrics results in instant rejection is a statement I know to be untrue.
 

Mike Coombes

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Lyrics are out unless you have deep pockets. I know someone who had to pay I think $500 per quote.

You can, however, quote titles, and you can allude to lyrics, but not quote them directly.
 

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willietheshakes said:
For the record -- and I think I already said this, but it may have been overlooked -- I wasn't disagreeing with the sentiment, or with the reality of the current state of copyright, etc. I was dealing with the across-the-board, cut-and-dry statement which I knew, from personal experience, to be untrue. I know, for a stone fact, that manuscripts are bought which contain copyrighted song lyrics. I know this to be true because mine was. Now, I may be the exception to the rule (God knows I have been before!), but to say that inclusion of song lyrics results in instant rejection is a statement I know to be untrue.



You aren't just an exception, you like teeth in a hen. Far. far, far more often than not, song lyrics do cause instant rejecrtion, and very often when they don't it's because an uninitiated editor/small publisher simply doesn't know the law.

And even when song lyrics are used and published, they can come back and bite a publisher on the rear end many years later. You can just have permission to use song lyrics in a novel, you need permission to use them in all subsequent editions, and all secondary rights, such as movies, plays, formats, etc., indefinitely, else the publisher, and the writer, can run into a hugely expensive nightmare years down the road.

There simply is no wise reason to include song lyrics in a novel, especially with the way copyright law is right now.
 

Tornadoboy

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I think what I'm going to do is have the song come up and MC2 notices MC1's reaction, who is a total stranger to her at the time, and muses over the implications. No mention of actual lyrics, just thoughts about their meaning, and even then I've got to wonder if mentioning the actual title and artist is a bad idea since many won't know the song. Maybe I should just make some fictional song up and try to fake my way through it? Who knows? I'll probably just punt that moment for the time being and make a note to get back to it.
I like the story but since I'm a rank amateur I know I may ultimately be the only one who does, so I won't be sinking $2,000 of lyrics in to it to find out.
When I'm rich, famous and have thousands bowing at my feet then maybe I'll add them, so in other words G'N'R shouldn't hold it's breath waiting for my check.
 
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Jaws

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One minor point:

It's not that small publishers don't know the law. It's that their corporate attorneys don't. Surprisingly few attorneys who work in-house at publishers have a strong background in copyright law, let alone copyright litigation. And it's even worse when a small publisher relies upon the guy who set up the LLC.

Permission isn't always necessary; contrary to the bluster you'll hear out of Nashville, song lyrics are subject to fair use under § 107, just like any other copyrighted work. Asking permission is almost always a good idea, though, if only from common courtesy (and you never know where you might find a good blurb—see, e.g., Barbara Kingsolver/Carrie Newcomer).

I'll repeat this here as food for thought: There are no reported decisions finding that two lines or less of a lyric that contain neither a proper name nor the title of the song exceeds fair use. A very few reported decisions find infringement at three to six lines, but they are all under the 1909 Act (which did not have a codified fair use privilege; at that time, fair use was a judicial doctrine only). That's not to say that merely getting sued for copyright infringement avoids trauma; it's just a bit of context. A song lyric, for copyright purposes, is nothing more than a poem; song lyrics get more attention primarily because more people listen to popular music than read poetry, and because the historical arrogance of the Harry Fox Agency has overcome all good sense.
 
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