I've been sober for three months (
) and my characters are more controlling than ever.Real or not, imaginary peoples have a goddamned strong will of their own.
When characters do the unthinkable
- Thread starter Ruv Draba
- Start date
- Status
I've been sober for three months (
) and my characters are more controlling than ever.Real or not, imaginary peoples have a goddamned strong will of their own.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 20,770
- Reaction score
- 2,726
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
- Website
- www.gallagherwitt.com
To be completely serious, yes, my characters do call the shots.
How does that make sense? Simple: Human nature. Certain people respond to certain situations in different ways. They can't be forced to react differently just to suit an outline. So, if one of my scenes isn't working because my characters "aren't cooperating", the reality is that I'm trying to force reactions out of someone who wouldn't react that way.
Ex: A recent sex scene between two lovers who'd reunited after 15 years apart wasn't going well. It wasn't going well at all. No matter what I did, it just wasn't happening. I finally backed away from it and, for lack of a better way of phrasing it, asked them what they wanted to do. Turns out one of them simply wouldn't jump into bed and hit the ground running like that. He was nervous. Downright terrified. Needed a slower touch and a completely different approach. I deleted better than 2/3 of what I'd written, started over with that in mind, and lo and behold...it worked.
Another example: One character was supposed to leave the other. No matter how many ways I wrote the conversation, it simply wasn't happening. Turns out, he didn't really want to leave, and I couldn't force it. I modified the outline, and the story is better for it.
Call it what you will. I can't force my characters to behave a certain way if that person wouldn't behave that way. Well, I can...but it won't be believable.
ETA: And I don't drink, either.
If my characters do the unthinkable, it's because they are worse off than I (and usually they) suspected. There are times where that's an important statement, thing to ponder, etc. I don't like it just for shock value, though. There is one author in particular I hate because he's all shock, imho. I think that's cheap.
I read your question as asking if there are times when your character would think, say or do something that prior to that point in the story, they would never have thought, said or done. It's something that Donald Maass talks about in his Writing the Breakout Novel books as larger-than-life actions for your character that show them pushing out of their own bounds during particular circumstances. The technique has always sounded like a good one, to me. The actions create heightened, memorable moments specific to that character, with their own consequences.
Yes. (and I do apologise for starting it)
No. (Once I let them into my head for the day, they don't stop just because I left the computer)Use Her Name said:
Any more questions?
With my characters, sure I made them, but they've evolved in the writing since then. They're not the same people as they were originally intended to be, which means some of my original plans for them no longer work.
At this point, I can only control what happens to them. How they react is up to them. Er, their personalities.
They've never done something which I would consider unthinkable. Unconscionable, sure. Unexpected, definitely - a few days back, one of them accidentally destroyed half the room they were in, crippling a friend in the process, and I never saw either of those things coming - but looking back it always makes perfect sense.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2007
- Messages
- 5,114
- Reaction score
- 1,322
Sensual, enjoyable and memorable? What makes it memorable? The unexpected, certainly, but the unexpected can be familiar. What makes it unforgettable? Perhaps the unthinkable?
Interesting, but I already said...
Yes, but also that which the reader can't imagine them doing, yet which does seem plausible at the time.
Yes indeed... and perhaps because...
Yes again -- if they do the unexpected but not the unthinkable, is it a sign that we might not be pushing them hard enough?
Just idle thoughts and actually sex wasn't on my mind when I original posed this question (must've been that gap between every three minutes
). But the unthinkable can sometimes be good and empowering -- not simply terrifying and horrific. Some kindnesses are unthinkable, and so are some risks. Some bravery is unthinkable, and so is some generosity and sacrifice...What role has the unthinkable in your story? What role might or should it have?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 20,770
- Reaction score
- 2,726
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
- Website
- www.gallagherwitt.com
Define "unthinkable" in terms of a sex scene. When people mention my sex scenes to me, the things they always remember don't strike me as "unthinkable" at all. In fact, it's usually just the little, ordinary details that give them goosebumps.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2007
- Messages
- 5,114
- Reaction score
- 1,322
Sure, there's quality of description, but then there's how the character reacts to the situation and circumstance, given who it is.
What's unthinkable depends on what we expect of the character, and that in turn depends on how much we've bought into the character's thinking and passions. So it's hard to give the 'feeling' of unthinkability without first knowing the character intimately. But notwithstanding that...
A devout nun having sex is unexpected (though perhaps not in erotic fiction; certainly in other fiction). A devout nun deliberately having sex for the first time in a place where she's almost certain to be discovered (e.g. the Mother Superior's bed, after dinner), is unthinkable. Why would she choose to ruin her vows and her honour and friendships and career? What lust or seduction could possibly be so strong that she'd forget where she was? How can you as author make the reader believe that she'd ever do that when she considers the very idea of sexual temptation abhorrent? How can you get the reader to believe that she'd do it knowing the likely cost? Can you capture the full weight of the expected cost alongside whatever passion brought her to that state?
Anyway, the quality of unthinkability depends on the quality of the author and I'm nobody's idea of an erotica author... but that's my best initial stab. You could perhaps do a better job with more skillzorz. Please consider this a pointer toward an example rather than an example itself, let alone a definition.
Depends what turns you on!
As for 'controlling' characters, my hero tells me 'if you ever think that you're in control here, I'll give you writers block from Hell.'
Basically they won't come out to play.
So, do the writers who feel in control of the characters sit and make rational decisions about plot? I let my self slip into a hypocognitive state (kinda day dreaming state) where my characters tell me where the story goes.
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2009
- Messages
- 10,361
- Reaction score
- 1,032
- Location
- In your mind
- Website
- maxoneverything.wordpress.com
Yup. So does mine.
People might scoff at it, but when I'm focused I see them in my head vividly. And they all have their distinct personalities.
Like my last big character who ended up not a Cockney but a Geordie. It was all his decision, and it was better because it isolates him better in London
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2009
- Messages
- 4,776
- Reaction score
- 417
The trick is to make it seem like the thing is 'unthinkable' but when the reader looks back over it, it makes perfect sense.
Let's say, for example, you take the Oedipus interpretation of Hamlet and include an ambiguous kiss between Hamlet and his mother. When watching it, most people would squirm or just denounce it as being ludicrous, but it would explain Hamlet's desire to kill his stepfather, why Hamlet treats Ophelia so badly, and why Hamlet is so obsessed with the personal details of his mother and uncle's relationship. You can see how the unthinkable might actually work.
I take 'unthinkable' to mean 'a bold move which at first the reader cannot understand.' The 'unthinkable' is more shocking and initally confusing than the 'unexpected', which is a neat twist but could probably have been predicted. If you cannot justify the 'unthinkable' action, it's just there for shocks.
As for controlling characters, you hope that as a writer you have created lucid characters which could be real people and that you have the instinct to know what the character is likely to do. But it's an art, remember? And don't think that your own desires as a person/reader/writer aren't creeping in anywhere. If you don't want to write a murder scene, your characters wouldn't entertain the idea of murder.
Let's say, for example, you take the Oedipus interpretation of Hamlet and include an ambiguous kiss between Hamlet and his mother. When watching it, most people would squirm or just denounce it as being ludicrous, but it would explain Hamlet's desire to kill his stepfather, why Hamlet treats Ophelia so badly, and why Hamlet is so obsessed with the personal details of his mother and uncle's relationship. You can see how the unthinkable might actually work.
I take 'unthinkable' to mean 'a bold move which at first the reader cannot understand.' The 'unthinkable' is more shocking and initally confusing than the 'unexpected', which is a neat twist but could probably have been predicted. If you cannot justify the 'unthinkable' action, it's just there for shocks.
As for controlling characters, you hope that as a writer you have created lucid characters which could be real people and that you have the instinct to know what the character is likely to do. But it's an art, remember? And don't think that your own desires as a person/reader/writer aren't creeping in anywhere. If you don't want to write a murder scene, your characters wouldn't entertain the idea of murder.
because people do unthinkable and unexpected things everyday.
as they say, it's the quiet ones....
as they say, it's the quiet ones....
I would read this book.
Yep. Life's not a Stephen King novel.
That said, I do occasionally have tangential thoughts as I'm typing that lead my thinking in another direction, and a scene ends differently than I'd planned it. I don't think of it as the characters making their own decisions, though. If anything, it's something bubbling up out of the murk of my subconscious. Generally it's better than what I'd set out to do.
Last edited:
The unthinkable? Hmm. In which way? I guess they do it in times of desperate and last resort. Lemme think about it more...
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,756
- Reaction score
- 417
- Location
- Austria
- Website
- notsosilentsister.tumblr.com
"Unthinkable" can have several connotations
1.) unthinkable = outrageous, scandalous, transgressive. Prohibited by such a powerful taboo that even thinking about it seems unforgiveable.
These acts can be absolutely essential to the story or included for mere shock value. In both cases, the result can be worthwile reading. (I'm not the biggest fan of provokation for the sake of provokation, but I can see, how some people, myself included, occasionally just need to be provoked).
I think the freedom to explore these boundaries is an important part of literature, but so far I've rarely done it myself, because I generally prefer more subtle touches and still lack sufficient proficiency not to paint these things in lurid colours. (Which does not mean that painting in lurid colours can't be interesting and worth reading, it's just not my prefered colour pallette right now.)
Then again, what seems no big deal to me, might seem terribly transgressive to someone else, so there's always that.
2.) unthinkable = unmotivated, out of the blue, absurd. Things you would have genuinely never thought of, not because some sort of super-ego constrains you, but simply because they are so random and bizarre. Those are the things that leave us utterly bewildered. They defy conventional logic and resist any explanation. They make no sense at all in our usual state of mind (but might make perfect sense in a different one - see dream-logic/drug-logic/fairy-tale logic).
Many outrageous, transgressive, scandalous acts are really not unthinkable in the sense of unmotivated, random, absurd. On the contrary, the motivation is often rather transparent and banal. Take the Austrian man for instance, who imprisoned his own daughter in his cellar, raped her repeatedly over the course of decades and had several children with her: Unthinkable in the sense that I don't want to go anywhere near that mind, it makes me so sick. But then again, it's absolutely no mystery to me why he did it. There isn't anything random about it. It's nothing but the continuation of a vicious cycle of abuse (the man in question was regularly beaten by his mother as a child), taken to extremes by a logical escalation of a misogynistic belief system and a patriarchal sense of entitlement. Makes perfect sense, in a rather banal way.
Personally, I feel more drawn to the unthinkable in the sense of the Absurd. I'm not sure I can pull it off. The art lies in making it seem perfectly natural, while your reader is immersed in the story, and have them register the absurdity of it all only at the back of their mind, not in a way that takes them out of your world - just like your dreams makes perfect sense while you are still dreaming, even if you might somehow subconsciously know that it's all a dream that will fall completly apart once you are awake again. In order to do so, you have to convert your readers to a different state of mind, which is certainly no small feat, isn't it?
I think it's done perfectly well in Alice in Wonderland and many other stories directed primarily at children, as well as in anything written by Kafka.
I'd love to be able to do that but I find it extremly difficult. I'm unfortunately very invested in conventional logic and find it hard to let go.
1.) unthinkable = outrageous, scandalous, transgressive. Prohibited by such a powerful taboo that even thinking about it seems unforgiveable.
These acts can be absolutely essential to the story or included for mere shock value. In both cases, the result can be worthwile reading. (I'm not the biggest fan of provokation for the sake of provokation, but I can see, how some people, myself included, occasionally just need to be provoked).
I think the freedom to explore these boundaries is an important part of literature, but so far I've rarely done it myself, because I generally prefer more subtle touches and still lack sufficient proficiency not to paint these things in lurid colours. (Which does not mean that painting in lurid colours can't be interesting and worth reading, it's just not my prefered colour pallette right now.)
Then again, what seems no big deal to me, might seem terribly transgressive to someone else, so there's always that.
2.) unthinkable = unmotivated, out of the blue, absurd. Things you would have genuinely never thought of, not because some sort of super-ego constrains you, but simply because they are so random and bizarre. Those are the things that leave us utterly bewildered. They defy conventional logic and resist any explanation. They make no sense at all in our usual state of mind (but might make perfect sense in a different one - see dream-logic/drug-logic/fairy-tale logic).
Many outrageous, transgressive, scandalous acts are really not unthinkable in the sense of unmotivated, random, absurd. On the contrary, the motivation is often rather transparent and banal. Take the Austrian man for instance, who imprisoned his own daughter in his cellar, raped her repeatedly over the course of decades and had several children with her: Unthinkable in the sense that I don't want to go anywhere near that mind, it makes me so sick. But then again, it's absolutely no mystery to me why he did it. There isn't anything random about it. It's nothing but the continuation of a vicious cycle of abuse (the man in question was regularly beaten by his mother as a child), taken to extremes by a logical escalation of a misogynistic belief system and a patriarchal sense of entitlement. Makes perfect sense, in a rather banal way.
Personally, I feel more drawn to the unthinkable in the sense of the Absurd. I'm not sure I can pull it off. The art lies in making it seem perfectly natural, while your reader is immersed in the story, and have them register the absurdity of it all only at the back of their mind, not in a way that takes them out of your world - just like your dreams makes perfect sense while you are still dreaming, even if you might somehow subconsciously know that it's all a dream that will fall completly apart once you are awake again. In order to do so, you have to convert your readers to a different state of mind, which is certainly no small feat, isn't it?
I think it's done perfectly well in Alice in Wonderland and many other stories directed primarily at children, as well as in anything written by Kafka.
I'd love to be able to do that but I find it extremly difficult. I'm unfortunately very invested in conventional logic and find it hard to let go.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2009
- Messages
- 1,756
- Reaction score
- 417
- Location
- Austria
- Website
- notsosilentsister.tumblr.com
That's a reading of Hamlet I've come across rather frequently actually. It is internally perfectly consistent, so it seems plausible enough for me.
Great works of art are usually characterised by the fact that they allow for multiple interpretations, because they are so multi-layered and rich in meaning.
Personally I don't see any reason why any of these multiple possible readings should be privileged. A popular approach is to try and devine the intention of the author, which is often a fun and illuminating thing to do, but clearly has its limitations. Authors have their blind spots too and are occasionally guided by forces not entirely conscious to them. Noone is ever fully aware of all their own motives.
Of course there can still be "misreadings" (I'm not advocating radical relativism here), that have no basis in any shareable perspective and are self-contradictory, but this is rather not the case here. (The basis, in this case, being psycho-analytical).
That's where I'd disagree. The Hamlet-example is not so much an instance of a character doing something unthinkable (at least not in the sense of "random/unmotivated/absurd"), but a mere result of information assymmetry. The character does have a motivation for his actions, we as readers just haven't figured them out yet.
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2009
- Messages
- 2,757
- Reaction score
- 517
Do you employ donkey punches, cleveland steamers and boston pancakes?
If so, I will read your stories.
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2009
- Messages
- 2,757
- Reaction score
- 517
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2009
- Messages
- 2,757
- Reaction score
- 517
I hope its either really early, or really late where you are, coz damn that was BAD.
And besides, everyone knows, I'm married. I gave up on any form of sex when I put the ring on.
My dragons only do anal.
My strawberry shortcakes, however, make romantic, candle-lit love to each other in soul-rattling, spiritual, procreational bliss. It's sick, I know. It's -- what's the word? -- unthinkable, really.
- Status