Libros International / Wild Cherry Press

I can get highly strung about the possibility of getting seriously ripped off. That kind of thing angers me a lot.

SiverMask said:

OH my, I started this thread like ancient ages ago. And when I come back to the forum, I see it on top spot. Just a yes or no would have sufficed. I keep forgetting you pple here are like sharks.

Some of your remarks are absolutely nasty and uncalled for. And having fun at the expense of others just speaks of bullying behaviour.

And yes, I am writing in Brit spelling, thus it's behaviour not behavior.

Gosh.

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You asked a question and from that question, a great deal of useful information about this publisher was uncovered.

Many writers will be able to read this thread and come to an informed opinion about Libros International and Wild Cherry. Something you were unable to do on your own. Otherwise, you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

Sometimes egging dishonest people on is the only way to get to the truth. They disclose things when they are emotional, that they normally would not disclose.

Instead of passing judgment on people who have helped uncover this information, why not thank the people who spent a great deal of time researching this publisher for you?

Or is that too much to ask?

SiverMask said:

High strung emotions here. I'm out.

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Thank you for providing an excellent example of hypocrisy.

Yog got e-mail from a lurker. I am so jealous.

I'm jealous, too, Hapi.

Lessee. I got sparkles when I asked for them. Do you supposed I could get email from lurkers now just by wishing hard????

I put a kitty toaster in my avatar and one arrived in the mail in less than two weeks, so anything is possible. Recieved any sparkly packages with airholes in the recently?

qwerty said:

If LI and WC cleaned up their act and became separate companies, it would be very improper for LI to hand off their slush rejects to WC. Authors have submitted their work to LI in order to have it considered for LI's publishing program only.
They have not thereby empowered LI to act as their agent, shopping the book around to other publishers.​

Um, their contract says they reserve the right to promote the Authors work to other publishers.

There is also something in the contract (obviously added because it’s in a different font) about licenses made by the publisher that do not require the approval of the author.

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I assume you're not talking about the common arrangement whereby the publisher's entitled to sell the foreign rights to overseas publishers and split the take with the author.

Does the contract contain standard language saying that publisher undertakes to publish the book (within a fixed amount of time) (until it either stops selling or the license expires) (at which point they give it back to the author) ? If so, it's bizarre that the contract should also specify that the publishers have the right to promote it to other publishers. Which is it going to be -- publishing, or agenting to other publishers? Those are contradictory. You can't do both of them at once.

A contract that both allows the publisher to resell the book elsewhere, and enter into licensing agreements without the author's approval, is just plain scary. I'll assume that provision that's in a different font was added at the point that LI's founders decided to add WC to their operation.

Next point: Are you more or less quoting the language of the contract? Does it specifically say promote, not sell or market or otherwise convey? If it only says promote, then all LI are entitled to do is tell other publishers what a swell book it is.

Onward to Birol's point:

Birol said:

The author would have to sign the contract for those clauses to be effective, so if Libros rejects the author or if the author does not sign the contract for reasons of their own, it would be improper for Libros to just hand the manuscripts off to Wild Cherry for their review.

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If LI and WC are separate companies, and LI doesn't have a signed contract with the author, it's improper for LI to give WC its slush rejects.

If LI and WC are separate companies, and LI has a signed contract with the author, and the clause in question gives LI the right to sell the book to to other publishers instead of just promoting it, and the contract is otherwise a fairly standard publishing contract, then as soon as LI exercises their right to peddle the property to other publishing houses, they'll be in violation of all the other standard provisions that state that they will publish the book themselves.

If LI and WC are not separate companies, then LI is committing fraud by pretending to sell or otherwise convey the book to another publisher that's actually a division of the same company, especially if the terms of LI's fraudulent and non-author-approved "license" with WC are significantly different than the terms of the contract the author originally agreed to. IANJ, but I suspect that such a contract could be broken as easily as a soda cracker. Penalties and reparations might be involved.

I can tell you exactly what's generating all this contractual mess and confusion: the fiction that LI and WC are two separate companies. They aren't separate, and slipping a badly-thought-out amendment into the contract doesn't change that basic fact.

SiverMask said:

High strung emotions here. I'm out.

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The high-strung emotions being SiverMask's, of course.

I wonder what he or she was actually upset about? Given SM's original query, the only scenario I can conjure is that SM submitted a book to LI/WC, was taken aback by the terms of their offer, and came here to ask whether the terms were normal and the company of good repute. Lightning and thunder followed, leaving SiverMask afraid that he or she is now in LI/WC's bad books for having started the discussion in the first place.

It's an unsatisfactory guess. All we really know is that SiverMask ended up alarmed, and started out asking a question unlikely to have been asked by anyone affiliated with LI.

HapiSofi said:

It's an unsatisfactory guess. All we really know is that SiverMask ended up alarmed, and started out asking a question unlikely to have been asked by anyone affiliated with LI.

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A post in the form "Has anyone heard of X?" is common among Stealth Marketers.

Not that I think Sivermask is one.

The question is always, how did someone hear of the publisher to start with? Some days I'm convinced there's a mailing list that I'm not on that lists startup, small, dodgy publishers and agents. Most of those guys you'd need FBI assistance to find their webpage. So how do people find them, submit to them, then come here to ask about them?

I've often wondered that.

So how do people find them, submit to them, then come here to ask about them?

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I suspect that it's often a six degrees of separation thing.

Someone in a writing group mentions that they had a friend who ...

You get the drift. The number of bizarre and odd things I've come across that have had zero marketing astounds me sometimes.

Mac

James D. Macdonald said:

A post in the form "Has anyone heard of X?" is common among Stealth Marketers.

Not that I think Sivermask is one.

The question is always, how did someone hear of the publisher to start with? Some days I'm convinced there's a mailing list that I'm not on that lists startup, small, dodgy publishers and agents. Most of those guys you'd need FBI assistance to find their webpage. So how do people find them, submit to them, then come here to ask about them?

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The chairman of my writers group received an e-mail circular about LI a couple of months or so back. There is an e-mail list of UK writers groups that (legit) small publishers use to send out newsletters and competition details. I presume LI got a copy of the addresses.

I heard through a friend in Spain who posted me a link to a Costa Blanca newspaper.

Next point: Are you more or less quoting the language of the contract? Does it specifically say promote, not sell or market or otherwise convey? If it only says promote, then all LI are entitled to do is tell other publishers what a swell book it is.

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It states that the publisher reserves the right to promote the Authors work to other publishers.

Does the contract contain standard language saying that publisher undertakes to publish the book (within a fixed amount of time) (until it either stops selling or the license expires) (at which point they give it back to the author) ?

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To publish within a fixed amount of time, yes.

The work would be deemed to be out of print if annual sales drop below 100 copies or stock falls below 50 copies. (Rather confusing because, as POD, I thought it unlikely that stock would be kept)

It goes on to say that rights revert to the author if the publisher fails to reprint under the publisher’s own imprint.

I can’t see anything other than that about the publisher’s license expiring, but it does say that licenses granted by the publisher to others continue until they terminate or are terminated, and the publisher will continue to account to the author or agent.

That you all are now questioning my motives and making wild conjectures is out of topic

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Good point.

The object of the exercise was to drain the swamp. Instead, this thread GOT swamped with a load of invalid and unconstructive stuff, all of which served to cloud the issue at stake. I believe this came about when LI advocates joined en-masse with their arrogant, defensive attitude and insult hurling.

If the LI bods had not inflamed people who, naturally, responded, or made fools of themselves, which invited ridicule, this thread could have been a few pages of valid information gathered in a couple of days.

There are some good, informative posts buried in there somewhere, which have become hard to find. I wanted to check on something that had been said a while back, but it did my head in trawling through 14 pages.

It occurs to me that the LI defenders raised a smoke-screen, masking some important information about LI. And continued to do so with emily2's very silly posts, which could have been designed to distract from THE TOPIC.

Yes, I’m here as myself. No one has asked or cajoled me to make any further comments. On this basis I would like to set the record straight..

First of all, I apologise unconditionally for any comments I’ve made that were, or were construed as, being rude. My remark about being a best selling author was written with my tongue very firmly in my cheek, and it was stupid (and wishful thinking!).

I stand by my initial statement about the quality of my book in terms of both presentation and content. I will never be a Margaret Attwood or a Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and don't claim to be, but I do know from valuable, reliable and unbiased feedback that I can write reasonably well and do have a voice of my own. The editing, artwork and presentation is good in comparison with paperback books currently in circulation.

I also reiterate quite categorically that I have not paid Libros International anything to become published and certainly do not have a clause in my contract requesting that I buy 100 copies of my book. I did, as I said before, buy enough copies for a personal book launch which was more of a celebratory party for friends and family than anything else. I told Libros from the beginning that I was a writer not a bookseller.

My vanity has never allowed me to either self publish or to go down the vanity publishing route. I’ve seen enough bad books that have been published by this method to know that it isn’t for me. My vanity doesn’t take the form of just seeing my name on the cover of a book but by the number of copies it sells. I also value my work enough to expect to be paid for it. I’ve tried never to stop believing in myself and constantly strive to become a better writer.

For this reason I disassociate myself and my book A Bucket of Ashes from Wild Cherry publications. I had no idea until last Thursday that this company even existed let alone that it is linked to Libros or that my book is featured on the site. I believe this to be so of the other LI authors that I know.

PS Anyone who wants them is welcome to my commas and semi-colons. I do need my past participles and gerunds though.

Jill said:

First of all, I apologise unconditionally for any comments I’ve made that were, or were construed as, being rude. My remark about being a best selling author was written with my tongue very firmly in my cheek, and it was stupid (and wishful thinking!).

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Okay, thank you.

I stand by my initial statement about the quality of my book in terms of both presentation and content. I will never be a Margaret Attwood or a Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and don't claim to be, but I do know from valuable, reliable and unbiased feedback that I can write reasonably well and do have a voice of my own. The editing, artwork and presentation is good in comparison with paperback books currently in circulation.

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For Libros authors I would like to see Libros get distribution and marketing in place. It's not fair on the authors to be hampered in this way, and if Libros is ever serious about becoming a commercial publisher it needs to be able to get books into the hands of readers.

I also reiterate quite categorically that I have not paid Libros International anything to become published and certainly do not have a clause in my contract requesting that I buy 100 copies of my book. I did, as I said before, buy enough copies for a personal book launch which was more of a celebratory party for friends and family than anything else. I told Libros from the beginning that I was a writer not a bookseller.

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I'm very glad you didn't buy the 100 books that, according to their website, they want authors to buy.

My vanity has never allowed me to either self publish or to go down the vanity publishing route. I’ve seen enough bad books that have been published by this method to know that it isn’t for me. My vanity doesn’t take the form of just seeing my name on the cover of a book but by the number of copies it sells. I also value my work enough to expect to be paid for it. I’ve tried never to stop believing in myself and constantly strive to become a better writer.

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(Bolding mine).

Good. Me too.

For this reason I disassociate myself and my book A Bucket of Ashes from Wild Cherry publications. I had no idea until last Thursday that this company even existed let alone that it is linked to Libros or that my book is featured on the site. I believe this to be so of the other LI authors that I know.

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It must be a nasty shock.

PS Anyone who wants them is welcome to my commas and semi-colons. I do need my past participles and gerunds though.

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Jill, that was a brave posting. I applaud you.

I was shocked when I saw your book on a vanity publisher's site, and I can imagine how you must have felt. I was instrumental in revealing the WC web site, and I am sorry this caused you distress. But I cannot regret that they have been revealed. Is it possible you can ask for your book to be removed from Wild Cherry as one of their featured books?

I hope you, at least, understand why we are trying to protect writers who believe in themselves and their work as you do. It was for this very reason I rejected Libros.

Jill, I wish you the best of luck with your book, and I hope Libros does manage to turn its business around, with proper marketing and distribution for its authors. Do let us know how it goes.

SiverMask said:

High strung emotions.

Attack. Attack.

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Chemicals.

Jill, I have no trouble believing that LI accepted your book purely on the basis of its quality. It's hard to judge when all one has to go on is three short excerpts, but my guess is that your writing doesn't fall far short of professional grade. Working on your writing and believing in yourself are exactly the right things to be doing.

I was overly harsh in some of my comments to you. I apologize. I need to work harder on remembering that not everyone who comes here and gets into arguments is Robert Fletcher or the PA triumvirate or their ilk.

You were actually listening. Thank you.

Jill - to the extent that I was harsh and rude in my comments to you, I apologise. I do stand by the comments I made with regard to the email from Ken that you posted, but do not extend the same to yourself given that you were clearly the messenger.

Jill:
I also reiterate quite categorically that I have not paid Libros International anything to become published and certainly do not have a clause in my contract requesting that I buy 100 copies of my book. I did, as I said before, buy enough copies for a personal book launch which was more of a celebratory party for friends and family than anything else. I told Libros from the beginning that I was a writer not a bookseller.

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Noting the circumstances in which you bought copies of your book, I nevertheless remain worried that in practice, because LI does not have the resources in place to properly distribute books, authors are in practice having to buy copies of their own books even if there is no contractual provision obliging them to. I am particularly worried that what could happen is what happens to PA authors, whereby they are the only people who ever pay their book.

Please be aware that I am not making any comment on your writing or the quality of your book in saying this - my comments are strictly limited to what will happen in practice with book sales and book distribution.

Jill:
For this reason I disassociate myself and my book A Bucket of Ashes from Wild Cherry publications. I had no idea until last Thursday that this company even existed let alone that it is linked to Libros or that my book is featured on the site. I believe this to be so of the other LI authors that I know.

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Yes, I can understand that it must have been a shock and it's definitely something that LI needs to clear up with its authors. At the very least, it needs to clarify its relationship with Wild Cherry and ideally, from an LI author perspective, Wild Cherry should be clearly run as a separate, vanity publisher so as not to risk confusion with what LI is doing. I hope that you can get that sorted out with them.

Jill:
PS Anyone who wants them is welcome to my commas and semi-colons. I do need my past participles and gerunds though.

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As a comma abuser, I'll have to pass on the offer. I was once at a low where I was using commas around every word, stealing them from my friends to feed the habit. It was horrible, but rehab is getting me to a point where I can live my life, free from comma abuse and looking foward to a happy future.

I could, however, do with a couple of semi-colons, if they're going spare.

MM

Thanks for being straight up, Jill. No publisher is immune to discussion and examination here. It's just the way it's done, and it is for the protection of the author in all cases. I hope you stay with us.

Tri

I've been away for a few days and was eager to see how matters had progressed in here. It seems we're still undecided... after Victoria's comments, I'm inclined to think Libros are little more than well-intentioned amateurs. But, there's still quite a bit muddy water on whether some authors have been asked to buy copies of their own book. Hopefully I'll address this by speaking to someone later today.

My gut tells me Libros play in both fields in that whereas Jill (nice post by the way, best of luck to you!) wasn't asked to buy however many copies, others may have been. Add to that this newly founded Wild Cherry and Ken's admission on being £21k+ out of pocket... proving iot would be nigh impossible, but it does seem the latter has been set up to fund the former. As such, my worry is that because the Libros side of things is sooooo damned amateurish (again, the fortnight-old marketing dept springs to mind) and will no doubt continue to make a loss until (if ever) the books published physically hit bookshelves rather than online stores, more and more authors - who would otherwise be accepted as a 'Libros' investment - will be pushed down the Wild Cherry route for no other reason than Ken's capital can't sustain Libros any further without some cash injection from somewhere.

Further to the above, another of their authors didn't purchase any of their own books, though it was something recommended very strongly to them. Thankfully, they didn't and haven't paid out a penny thus far... which is fitting, since they've received no marketing of note so far. Sooo... there you go.