Asexuality and the language barrier

[StormChord]

I think there's a key difference I didn't elaborate enough before; part of this is just an asexual thing.

That part is the difference between having trouble understanding something, and having trouble recognizing that something exists.

To me, and to every other asexual I've talked to, sex and sexuality is something we've heard of and can recognize intellectually, but not on a level that we intuitively understand it. If there is sexuality in someone's behavior, there is no way for us to tell unless we deduce it from our existing knowledge of this unknown element. It is less a matter of having trouble recognizing the subtext, and more that the content of the subtext would never occur to us. It is a form of blindness, and it can be very difficult to try and explain it to anyone who can see what we can't.

I don't mean to trivialize anyone else's struggles. As may be obvious, describing a language barrier is very difficult.

Capcha, part of the problem is that we can't tell how the compliment is meant, no matter the context or the attractiveness of the person giving it. It's like I said - we're blind to it.

And I'm afraid your metaphor isn't really accurate, although you shouldn't feel too bad, because I've never met someone sexual who can actually imagine what never wanting sex ever would be like.

A slightly more effective model would be this: try and recall how you viewed the world when you were, say, ten. Back in the days when all that adult talk was "icky" and a lot of what your parents said to each other was incomprehensible and slightly gross.

At some point, puberty came along and hit you like a truck, giving you a whole new worldview and a new perspective on - in this case - boys. Suddenly you could see some of what people were talking about before. All that adult talk began to make sense.

Now, that part never happened for me, and from what I've heard, it never happened for any of my ace friends, either. We've kept that childhood colorblindness. That is the language barrier, and that is why your world is a difficult place for me to comfortably live.

Okay, rant over.

 

[kuwisdelu]

I think I'm having trouble following because we're discussing an area of communication where you have trouble with the content ​and I have trouble with the form. We're the blind leading the blind.

Edit: Imagining asexuality is for me not so different from imagining being sexually attracted to people I'm not, only the opposite.

 

[StormChord]

Yay blindness party

 

[RichardGarfinkle]

I think I'm having trouble following because we're discussing an area of communication where you have trouble with the content ​and I have trouble with the form. We're the blind leading the blind.

Edit: Imagining asexuality is for me not so different from imagining being sexually attracted to people I'm not, only the opposite.

I think you two are having a bit of a confusion. Kuwi, you just made it clear that you can imagine being sexually attracted to people. Stormchord is making it clear that she can't.

The distinction here is like the difference between color-blindness and blindness. She can't see at all, and you're having trouble distinguishing colors.

 

[kuwisdelu]

I think you two are having a bit of a confusion. Kuwi, you just made it clear that you can imagine being sexually attracted to people. Stormchord is making it clear that she can't.

The distinction here is like the difference between color-blindness and blindness. She can't see at all, and you're having trouble distinguishing colors.

Now I'm more confused. Did you miss the "only opposite" part?

 

[RichardGarfinkle]

Now I'm more confused. Did you miss the "only opposite" part?

No, but I may have misunderstood. Could you clarify?

 

[Emermouse]

I sometimes wonder about my sexuality, whether I'm capable of feeling anything for anyone. I've only been in one relationship which ended not because I or the other guy, were assholes, but because I felt absolutely nothing, good or bad, for him. I've had had crushes, but so far they have all been on unobtainable people, mostly celebrities. And in most of my fantasies, I have a hard time picturing actually having sex with any of my crushes; I'd more just want to hang out and talk. Though if I'm really honest with myself, if I met any of the celebrities I have crushes on, I'd totally respond the way Troy does when he meets LeVar Burton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkHNVd3xlD4

Though I can't pick on Troy too much for freaking out about LeVar Burton: I'd totally respond the same way because he's the host of Reading Rainbow! Not because I have a crush on him.

Though part of me wonders about sex. People make such a big deal out of it that I think it'd be nice to go through it, just to see what the fuss is about. Though my reaction will probably be the same reaction every time I try stuff to see what the fuss is about: "The hell?!"

 

[Roxxsmom]

I can certainly look at someone of either gender and appreciate their beauty without finding them sexy. In fact, the men I tend to find sexiest are often ones who aren't particularly beautiful, or even handsome. And I've had relationships with people I didn't find terribly sexy at first, but as I came to know and love them, they've become sexy to me. Yet there are others for whom the chemistry probably just couldn't ever be there, no matter what. And I don't think I could ever be sexually attracted to someone I disliked or held in contempt.

For me, I'd rather, um, take care of myself than bother with the hassles of sex under those conditions. Maybe that's the biology thing kicking in, where women have fewer eggs and so are more careful about the baskets they want to put them in. Or maybe it's because for women, sexual, um, satisfaction isn't a given with every encounter. For many women, it takes practice and communication to be able to (argh, you know :blush, get full satisfaction with a partner.

Though I've certainly known men who have trouble separating sex from their emotions and women who are more utilitarian in their approach and seem to genuinely enjoy casual sex, even with people they don't like much.

Explaining it is hard, even within the framework of a shared orientation. Not surprising it's harder between them.

 

[Viridian]

I'm not sure I understand the flirting thing - I feel like that's often socialization? I mean, I can usually tell when someone is flirting with me, even if I'm not attracted to that person.

It sounds like what you're saying is that you can sense sexual subtext. The subtext makes sense to you, even if you aren't interested.

I think what StormChord is saying that sexual subtext doesn't make sense to her, therefore she can't pick up on it.

Much like... for example... a straight woman might not notice if another woman is flirting with her. At the very least, she wouldn't notice as quickly, and she'd need much stronger signals.

IDK, though. Not asexual.

 

[Captcha]

It sounds like what you're saying is that you can sense sexual subtext. The subtext makes sense to you, even if you aren't interested.

I think what StormChord is saying that sexual subtext doesn't make sense to her, therefore she can't pick up on it.

Much like... for example... a straight woman might not notice if another woman is flirting with her. At the very least, she wouldn't notice as quickly, and she'd need much stronger signals.

IDK, though. Not asexual.

Maybe... but I think I learned to pick up on sexual subtext - I don't think it came to me automatically. I mean, there are externally observable signs of flirtation - someone holding eye contact, initiating unnecessary physical contact, smiling, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think an asexual person could learn to notice and interpret these signals. No, of course the asexual person shouldn't be obliged to learn them, but I feel like they could? Sexual people have spent a lot of time thinking about sexuality and sex and paying close attention to the people they're attracted to and blah blah blah, and I really think it's all this thinking and imagining that has taught us about the language of sexuality. So, no, asexual people shouldn't have to spend a lot of time learning about something that doesn't interest them. But if an asexual person wanted to be, say, a sociologist, or a psychologist, or, hell, a well-tipped bartender, I wouldn't want them to think they couldn't do this because they can never properly interpret flirting or other sexual interactions. It seems like they could learn?

I mean, I can recognize sexist subtext and racist subtext even though I'm not sexist or racist - I just notice that there's something extra going on in a conversation and analyse the clues.

I don't mean to come across like I'm telling asexual people they're wrong about how they experience the world! I'm just trying to explore the idea and understand it better. Let me know if I'm making anyone uncomfortable and I'll stop.

 

[shivadyne]

I guess what I'm saying is that I think an asexual person could learn to notice and interpret these signals. No, of course the asexual person shouldn't be obliged to learn them, but I feel like they could? Sexual people have spent a lot of time thinking about sexuality and sex and paying close attention to the people they're attracted to and blah blah blah, and I really think it's all this thinking and imagining that has taught us about the language of sexuality. So, no, asexual people shouldn't have to spend a lot of time learning about something that doesn't interest them. But if an asexual person wanted to be, say, a sociologist, or a psychologist, or, hell, a well-tipped bartender, I wouldn't want them to think they couldn't do this because they can never properly interpret flirting or other sexual interactions. It seems like they could learn?

I mean, I can recognize sexist subtext and racist subtext even though I'm not sexist or racist - I just notice that there's something extra going on in a conversation and analyse the clues.

hmm. i kind of agree about picking up on subtext. i can still be caught off guard by it, but i am much more aware of it now (even if it took a long time to get to that point).

when i think of a language barrier in asexuality, i think more like... my reaction whenever someone brings up a subject that has sexual connotations.

like... i'd see it and wouldn't feel much on the matter. it's like talking about the weather.

but then i became aware that this was not like the weather at all. it wasn't meant to be talked about, but to be referred to awkwardly and in vague terms. i realized it was different for other people because they felt the subject was embarrassing or exciting. i was a little weirded out, i guess? i agree with that one analogy someone made earlier. it's like being a kid and hearing people talk about adult things, but you never really grow out of that mindset, i suppose. you just learn to adapt.

i can't speak for every ace person, though, and i'd never want to. we're all different and that has to be taken into account, too.

 

[Brutal Mustang]

At some point, puberty came along and hit you like a truck, giving you a whole new worldview and a new perspective on - in this case - boys. Suddenly you could see some of what people were talking about before. All that adult talk began to make sense.

Now, that part never happened for me, and from what I've heard, it never happened for any of my ace friends, either. We've kept that childhood colorblindness. That is the language barrier, and that is why your world is a difficult place for me to comfortably live.

I think I get what you're saying. I'm demi/gray. There are moments when friends will be joking about a banana, when in reality they're not talking about a banana at all.

 

[Lillith1991]

I think I get what you're saying. I'm demi/gray. There are moments when friends will be joking about a banana, when in reality they're not talking about a banana at all.

I think this is more indivual with people who are demi, because I'm very aware of sexual inuendos and the like, but unless I'm joking around with people don't generally see why they're so damn common. They can be fun, but tend to get all over almost every aspect of our society.

 

[slashedkaze]

I'm an ace who has no trouble with sexual subtext. Or innuendos. I suppose I learned from my environment. I can usually "pass" for a sexual person with relative ease. Sometimes I'm the one making jokes relying on sexual subtext, just because I love the reactions I get. And really, I'd be in trouble if this were problematic to me because I write and publish Erotic Romance. Goes to show that we are all different.

When I was younger though I had some problems telling when someone was interested in me, and I think I've been on one or two dates where I didn't realize I was on a date. Mostly because I had no idea I was asexual and other people thought differently. But I've learned to account for that.

The area where I have trouble acting 'normal' now is actually more like... I'm out with friends, a dude walks by, my friend goes 'Man, he's hot,' and I'll be all 'what?' Because I don't notice people like that. I don't know what to say when I'm asked what my type is, because I don't have one. I can generally tell if someone would be considered hot if I take a moment to think about it, but that nanosecond gut-level reaction? Foreign to me. Language that causes confusiot for me would be 'attraction' and 'libido.' Attraction because when I'm attracted to someone, it's purely romantic attraction, while for sexual people, it's always sexual attraction. (Or that seems to be the way the word is used.) And libido seems to be difficult because it tends to be used to refer to a sex drive focused on other people? Otherwise I don't know why people keep assuming that asexuals don't have one. (Mine's pretty high, but I don't desire help in taking care of it.)

(Incidentally, I'm also red/green color blind, and I do think there's some value in comparing color perception and lack of attraction, because they're both qualia. )

 

[sohalt]

Language is a barrier for everyone, in these matters especially. It seems to happen to certain sexual people a lot as well (at least according to their own accounts), that they say something completely innocuous that is misread as sexual by certain other parties who apparently like to engage in a bit of wishful thinking. (Not that I could talk....not inspiring a lot of wishful thinking, conveniently). And others will complain endlessly about their signals steadfastly not being picked up on by people who seem to be perfectly interested in these matters on other occasions. (The whole friendzoning/girls-only-want-assholes-whine). Seems like miscommunication is rampant among all parties regardless of sexual orientation.

 

[buz]

To me, and to every other asexual I've talked to, sex and sexuality is something we've heard of and can recognize intellectually, but not on a level that we intuitively understand it. If there is sexuality in someone's behavior, there is no way for us to tell unless we deduce it from our existing knowledge of this unknown element. It is less a matter of having trouble recognizing the subtext, and more that the content of the subtext would never occur to us.

It's occurred to me. Very rarely, as I said, because very rarely has anyone even almost-sorta "flirted" with me (and I say "flirted" because I'm still not sure if it was flirting or not), and true enough I don't *know* if it was flirting, which may be the point, but it occurred to me that it might be. It was one of several explanations for the behavior in question.

It is a form of blindness, and it can be very difficult to try and explain it to anyone who can see what we can't.

Maybe, but I'm not convinced that social conditioning can't mimic the function in individual cases. It's hard to generalize about these things.

And I'm afraid your metaphor isn't really accurate, although you shouldn't feel too bad, because I've never met someone sexual who can actually imagine what never wanting sex ever would be like.

A slightly more effective model would be this: try and recall how you viewed the world when you were, say, ten. Back in the days when all that adult talk was "icky" and a lot of what your parents said to each other was incomprehensible and slightly gross.

At some point, puberty came along and hit you like a truck, giving you a whole new worldview and a new perspective on - in this case - boys. Suddenly you could see some of what people were talking about before. All that adult talk began to make sense.

I dunno, I'm not sure about this metaphor either. I mean, I still get the blindness thing, but the functional difference between social conditioning and actually feeling the feelings is...well, I'm not sure about making any blanket statements about it, and I'm not sure it gives the right impression. Children are exposed to social conditioning before puberty; they start to learn the "language" in question without the feelings. This is something that can be inculcated in varying degrees in individuals depending on environment and things like that, and it progresses as you get older. I don't really feel I have a childlike language barrier about me--I have an experiential barrier, certainly. But I feel I've learned enough by know that, linguistically, this really doesn't matter to me.

I can recognize the possibility of sexual subtext. If a creepy guy comes up to me at a gas station and says "hay girl what you doin this weekend wanna come up to my place" then I can make several guesses about his intentions, some of which are sexual and some of which might involve robbing me. A child, depending on age, probably wouldn't think of all those possibilities because they haven't had the length of conditioning and exposure I have.

Sex occurs to me, is all I'm saying. I shut it down and say no to it whenever it's even *possible* it could be there, unless I'm joking about it or writing about it, etcetera, so it doesn't haunt me or anything--or, possibly, I shut it down naturally with my frigid demeanor before it even happens, so again, my personal experience may be inadequate for me to grasp this. But I understand "adult talk" because I've been trained to, not because I feel it, as you said with the colorblindness thing--I'm just not sure how this makes a significant functional difference in all individual cases, though I could certainly see difficulties for some.

As you said, it's still there, the thing that removes me one more step from others, that takes me out of that shared experience and makes it hard for me to fully understand on a firsthand experiental level what is going on, and it may make social cues harder. For me, though, it doesn't feel like a language barrier. It just feels like something I won't ever fully grasp, and that part's all right with me.

For other people, however, I could see what you mean, that it might cause a good degree of discomfort I just mean I'm not sure this feeling of a language barrier could be extrapolated to be something that every asexual person experiences, and I'm not convinced it causes uniquely asexual problems...

Now, that part never happened for me, and from what I've heard, it never happened for any of my ace friends, either. We've kept that childhood colorblindness. That is the language barrier, and that is why your world is a difficult place for me to comfortably live.

Although I don't feel it can be applied to every asexual as something that troubles them, it is an interesting take. I'm glad you shared it.

 

[SBibb]

While I was familiar with the term asexuality, I wasn't familiar with demisexuality, and I hadn't considered the idea that part of asexuality may also include being unable to key into various sexual references. This is an interesting topic, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Latina Bunny]

Maybe it's because of my experiences in the past, but I feel innuendo is everywhere you look... Especially among casual friends and such. People joke a lot about sex and innuendo. Just watch some adult comedy shows (can be live-action or animated), and you will see lots of sex/innuendo jokes.

I think it's a language you learn to pick up over time.

You could still have the occasional misunderstanding, though. I know I did sometimes. Sometimes, I would accidentally say something that could be taken in a sexual manner (lol), but didn't notice until other people started reacting to it.

 

[Roxxsmom]

I'd never heard the term "demisexual" either, and I had to look it up (it sounded to me a bit like it might be a variation on bisexual).

I wondered if that might be me, because I really have only had good, satisfying, erm, relations in the context of loving, committed relationships. But it sounds like with demisexuality, the emotional bond must precede sexual attraction. And while that's been true for me in some relationships, I've had others where I was attracted to someone right off, and the emotional attachment grew from that.

It's just that, for me, the two do tend to go together. I can't imagine separating sexual attraction from other aspects of romantic attraction the way some people can, and haven't had casual encounters that were terribly satisfying, except from the sense of "Ooooh, I did something wild and forbidden." When I was growing up, they told is this was simply how women were supposed to feel, though, and women who genuinely enjoyed casual sex were either lying or aberrant (and deserving of slut shaming).

But no, reading further, I'm definitely not demisexual. I think about sex a lot, and have no issues with, um, arousal, even if it's entangled with my emotions. I'm just a stupid gal who tended to fall in love with guys I should only have been attracted to physically (back when I was single)

Don't think there's a word for that.

I'm thinking that the demisexual orientation is the quintessential way "nice girls" were supposed to be historically--never think of sex until she finds "the one" and experiencing sexual attraction to very few people in their lives.

Sorry--didn't mean to derail. But this is interesting: learning a new word for a concept I'd never really given much thought to before.

 

[Sophia]

I'm thinking that the demisexual orientation is the quintessential way "nice girls" were supposed to be historically--never think of sex until she finds "the one" and experiencing sexual attraction to very few people in their lives.

That's interesting. I've been reading these threads and thinking, "Aha, demisexual, that's exactly what I am," and like you, hadn't given it much thought before. I hadn't considered that it was something that was programmed into me, but your observation makes a lot of sense.

I'm sorry, too, to StormChord and other posters, for continuing the derail.

 

[Liosse de Velishaf]

My girlfriend is very oblivious to sexual subtext sometimes. And plenty of straight people miss when they're being flirted with for various reasons. I think I could see how some asexual people could be blind to fliritng/subtext/innuendo. Like, if I"m not attracted to someone, I almost never catch on to casual flirting. I just don't see that person in a context involving romance or sex, so I don't consider the possibility that their behavior might involve seeing me in that context. My girlfriend has horrible trouble recognizing flirting or knowing she might be coming off as flirty if she isn't going into a situation knowing she's into the person or having pre-knowledge they're into her. I'm constantly arguing with her about whether some guy was flirting with her or whether she might have come across as flirting. Not just because I'm her boyfriend, though. XD\

I definitely think most people can be trained to get flirting or innuendo, especially if they're actively reminded to consider remarks in a given situation as potentially sexual.