United Latin Europe post 888

StarWombat

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With the deposition and death of Charles III without legitimate children, the principle of a united secular western counterpart to the (Eastern and Orthodox) Roman Empire became purely theoretical, and later claims to universal sovereignty over Latin Europe were rarely taken seriously.

However, Charles III did have a bastard son, Bernard and much of his reign prior to his deposition was taken up with securing legitimization for the putative Prince, a plan in which he was opposed by several bishops and supported by Pope Hadrian III, who died before he could order the deposition of the opposing Bishops led by Bishop Liutbert of Mainz and his party. Had Liutbert been removed from opposition, it seems fairly likely that the Emperor would have won over the remaining Bishops in the realm.

Had Bernard lived to adulthood, and been crowned as Emperor, and had heirs, it's possible that the forces driving nascent nationalism in the two primary Frankish kingdoms would have sputtered out and the Holy Roman Empire could have retained its control of West Francia along with East Francia, Middle Francia and Lombardy.

However, I can find no reading in Salic law that supports or opposes the full succession of a legitimized bastard. Much later, French law would provide support for illegitimate children. Roman law in the early Principate seems to have been very flexible, but I don't know if that lasted into Late Antiquity when the Franks would have come in contact with it.

So, had Bernard been legitimized, would his authority or right to rule be recognized by his father's vassals, or would the Empire still have split apart?
 

Twick

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I don't know much about Salic law, except that it's supposed to provoke laughter when described as clear as the summer sun. But I suspect much of it would have to do with the personality of Bernard himself. If he was a strong, even Machiavellian, type who could charm, threaten or bribe people to support him, his legitimacy wouldn't have been a big deal. If he were a weak ruler, his opponents could have jumped on any excuse to depose him.
 

King Neptune

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So, had Bernard been legitimized, would his authority or right to rule be recognized by his father's vassals, or would the Empire still have split apart?

Definitely, but as Twick pointed out, it would have had more to do with Bernard than with anything else. If Charles III had thought about it, then he might have reformed the laws regarding succession, but he didn't. It is opinion that the Holy Roman Empire was not governable in the size and configuration of the time. It required a strong and active monarch who was willing to spand his time and army holding the empire together.
 

MythMonger

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It seems to me you're writing an alternate history where if Bernard lived into adulthood and ascended to the throne, the Holy Roman Empire would've held on for a bit longer?

I'll be the first to admit I know next to nothing about this time period, so if one of my suggestions seems laughable, please know it comes from a place of pure ignorance. :)

Maybe the answer lies a step back in history. For example:

Bernard was not born as illegitimate (Charles married his mother instead of whoever he married)
or, Bernard was born as illegitimate, but it was a secret and Charles raised him as legitimate
or, Bishop Liutbert never ascended to the role of bishop or maybe died before these events took place

I'd imagine there's any number of scenarios that could be put in place to make Bernard's ascension to the throne a bit easier.
 

Catherine_Beyer

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So, had Bernard been legitimized, would his authority or right to rule be recognized by his father's vassals, or would the Empire still have split apart?

A person is either legitimate or not, and in the Middle Ages, the ultimate authority on legitimacy was the Church. So if the pope said he was a legitimate heir, then legally he was a legitimate heir.
 

Ariella

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I don't think there would have been any legal barrier to a bastard's succession in the ninth century. Canon law didn't really come down on bastards until the twelfth century, when the Church got more involved in regulating marriage practices. On the secular side, Charles the Fat was an Aleman rather than a Salian Frank, so if there was any national law that applied, I expect it would be the Alemannic Law, although I doubt it discussed bastardy that early either.