Do characters have to be unlikable to be real?

Perfect sense.

I don't try to write people as black or white. Really, no one in this world is completely evil or completely good. It's all in the perspective. Their motivations.

Whether a character does something apparently good or apparently bad, it all comes down to one question - what do they want?

Everyone has desires which drive their actions. Freedom from fear. Safety. Love. Money. Power. Answers.

Characters should have flaws. Our imprefections are what make us real. No one wears a black hat or a white hat in real life; we're ambiguous. So should our characters be.

I *try* and write characters as real people. Sometimes nice people who do shitty things, sometimes bastards that do good things. Mostly they hover around the middle.

Generally, even the nicest people have reasons and motives that are contradictory to their behaviour (on the surface at any rate). And quite often they don't even see it. I take those basic things and try make them a little larger than life - not to the point of caricature, but to help make them memorable..

I agree with most of the OP's points. Too bad is just as bad as too good. When I write characters I don't even tend to think of things like strengths and weaknesses--I just think of individuals, and of course most individuals aren't going to be perfectly good or perfectly bad. Even the most detestable characters who I wouldn't ever want to know in real life have some sort of qualities that make them interesting and three dimensional as characters. I can't even imagine creating a totally bad guy without SOME sort of interesting (if not quite redeeming) quality...why would I want to write something so boring?

One can go to extremes either way, and in most cases extremes are better off avoided.

Or even being nice can be the flaw, a character that allows others to walk all over him.

I don't think anyone is saying two dimensional evil characters are good either. Now, it may be that the anti-hero is slightly more popular these days, but there are plenty of "nice" characters out there these days as well. Instead of balking at the idea of making your characters "meaner", think of why people are pointing it out. Making a character three dimensional does not equal making them nasty. It simply equals them having a human personality. Someone who makes mistakes, who sometimes gets angry.

CJ, I have seen this kind of tenor in your posts before in the children's section about "do all kids books have to be dark?" I really think you need to sit back and take a deep breath. Just because someone tells you that your work or main character is too nice, does not mean they want you to turn your book into something mean spirited. It just suggests that your work is too unbelievable, your character too perfect, unrelatable. Let's see his fears, his concerns. I also think you really have to read more. There are many heroic characters out there that still come across as real. Read "His Majesty's Dragon", the MC is a perfect example of this.

It isn't about these extremes you postulate. A two dimensional character is bad whether it is nice or mean. Also remember that one person's opinion is just that, so she thinks people would rather read about unpleasant people. I could point you to my father who could tell you quite the opposite. And as for me, I will read about anyone, so long as the story entertains. I love dark, I love light, and everything in between.

Real people are sometimes nice, sometimes likable, sometimes bad, sometimes unlikable, and sometimes outright evil.

I think "real" is not the right term you're looking for. I think "memorable" is.

But nice and likable people can be memorable, too. We only remember "bad guys" better because their actions and thoughts are so extremely, so unlike anyone we know, so they stand out.

Write characters that are intriguing and fascinating. Being "nice" or "bad" is just another aspect of the character.

BTW, a memorable character is more defined by his or her actions, and not just thoughts and feelings. Who care if Hannibal Lecter only desires to kill and eat people? It's the fact that he actually does it, and the way he does it, that makes him memorable.

And some may even say Lecter is rather likable!

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Sometimes "contradictions" make a character unique and memorable, too. A great husband/father who happens to cheat. An serial killer who happens to help people. A cannibal who happens to be sophisticated, educated, and romantic. A nice mother who happens to seeks out and hurt a child killer. Contradictions make these people more real, even though they're not quite like us -- because we're all people of contradictions. Thus, we can all relate to these characters.

My question is: After you've written your story, how do you find a balance?

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I think it's a wrong question.

It's not about "finding a balance."

It's about being TRUE to your character, and being TRUE to the human condition. Your character doesn't have to be "balanced." Doesn't have to be half good and half bad. Doesn't have to have equal amount of virtues and flaws. It needs to be real and memorable, and that means you, as the writer, needs to let it go and let the character does his or her own thing. Be true to them.

I always thought the Witch put it nicely in Sondheim's musical Into the Woods, a show I used to love until I heard the main song for about the fifteen thousandth time. You always have to keep in mind the various layers of a character if you want to develop one that's 'real' or believable.

You're so nice.
You're not good,
You're not bad,
You're just nice.
I'm not good,
I'm not nice,
I'm just right.
I'm the Witch.
You're the world.

I'm the hitch.
I'm what no one believes,
I'm the Witch.
You're all liars and theives,
Like his father,
Like his son will be, too-
Oh, why bother?
You'll just do what you do.

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A good character has strong opinions and is decisive and persistent. A real-life person with those qualities, especially if you happen to disagree with what they're doing, might be an opinionated, stubborn steamroller.

All attributes have a positive and negative side. The character who is single-minded in pursuit of his goal looks admirable in fiction. In real life, the "unimportant" distractions he's brushing aside might be your wants and needs.

Then there's a disconnect somewhere.

Sometimes we as writers forget that we have the complete image in our minds. We know our characters inside out - or should do anyway.

The problem comes in translating that onto the page, so a reader can glean from it the same character we have in our minds.

Listen to your readers. Ask them what they think of your characters and their motivations. Then think about how you can change the image in their minds to the one in yours.

C.J. Rockwell said:

That's what I AM doing!!!!

But the problem is, but no one seems to see the characters as I do. What I see as relatable, many see as unrealistic.

What do you do then?

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Then you have to understand why your readers think it's unrealistic. Are the characters based on real people? Are you trying to make your character a certain way that is not realistic (a fighter pilot who is afraid of height)? Do they say or do things someone in real life (who are like them) would do (a devote Christian wouldn't curse in front of their mother)? Are they based on real human behaviors -- did you observe real people to get their nuances? Or perhaps you're not doing enough to convey what and why the character acts.

Like SP said, there must be a disconnect. What you see in the character is not what your readers get. If enough of your readers say that, then there is something wrong with how you write them, or maybe there is a fundamental flaw in your character design, or action or dialogue -- something just doesn't feel real the way you envision them.

I don't think your character has to be unlikable to the reader. But the character has to be believably unlikable to someone -- your antagonists, most likely -- because of the kind of character flaws, foibles, mistakes, etc. that make people three-dimensional and real. Characters painted as being so adorable/noble/gorgeous/courageous/kindhearted that nobody could reasonably dislike them are, ironically, the most despised, because readers know they can't be real.

Who says you can't be dark, tortured, or mean-spirited and still be nice? I think, aside from mean-spirited, those are probably three of the best words I'd use to honestly describe myself.

I think what's important is to create sympathetic characters. Not necessarily likeable characters, or people you'd feel comfortable hanging around in real life, but there's at least something about them - whether hero or villain - that makes you want them to succeed in life.

maestrowork said:

It's about being TRUE to your character, and being TRUE to the human condition. Your character doesn't have to be "balanced." Doesn't have to be half good and half bad. Doesn't have to have equal amount of virtues and flaws. It needs to be real and memorable, and that means you, as the writer, needs to let it go and let the character does his or her own thing. Be true to them.

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I've seen so many stories ruined because the author just wouldn't let the character be. I hate it when the writer tries to protect the character from his own flaws and won't let him make serious mistakes. If you think your character is ruining himself and the story, create another character. Just don't try and stop him from being himself. I see this often with anti-heroes. The writer creates a character with an extreme flaw then is afraid to let the character suffer the consequences of it, so often the character is extremely lucky or has brilliant insights that come out of nowhere, telling him exactly what to do, or he just stops acting like himself. It completely ruins the story for me.

Characters don't have to be unlikable to be real. Having read a few chapters of your story on SYW, I believe that perhaps the comments saying your characters are too "nice" is actually a case of somebody finding a real problem but calling it the wrong thing. Maybe what your story suffers from is NOT characters that are too "nice", too "likable".

Perhaps the comments really mean, "your character has too many nice things happening to him/her. YOU are being too nice to your characters." Perhaps what people want to see is the characters being put into trouble. And perhaps part of that is to allow your characters to make mistakes.

You DON'T need to make characters unlikeable to make them real. Real life is full of generally nice people who do occasionally make mistakes and suffer. Occasionally.

C.J. Rockwell said:

...I HAVE been letting my characters be themselves, I know I have, but I'm always hard pressed to find readers who see them as I do...

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Not to be harsh but it seems to me like the problem isn't with your readers, but your writing, that is, translating what's in your head into writing to give the reader the correct impression.

All they have to go on are the words on the page. If the words aren't doing their job, look to the author.

There's a huge difference between imperfect and unlikable. The best characters--for good or ill are imperfect. Dr Hannibal Lector is urbane, an art maven, a cordon bleu chef, and yet thinks Chianti goes with human kidney. A Pinot Grigio would be better :}

scheherazade said:

Who says you can't be dark, tortured, or mean-spirited and still be nice? .

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You've met my mother?

If characters are supposed to be as real as possible, how can they be more "real" if there's nothing about them we like?


I think the thing we forget is why is the person so unlikeable? just as in real life, there is a reason the character is bitter or unreasonable, or just plain mean. Perhaps something in their life turned them into dark human beings. Exploring that within a book written about someone who is deplorable, humanizes them, and makes them more multi dimensional.

Case in point, the character in my book is simply hated. No mincing it-no one likes her. But within the book, I go back to experiences she has had which explain why she is dark and bitter and resentful and treats people the way she does. It makes her actions just a bit more excusable. Granted, in the end, she finds the errors of her ways, but to explain the isms within her in a story telling way, humanizes her and makes her personality more understandable. You still hate her, but you understand why she makes you hate her-if that makes sense

scarletpeaches said:

I don't try to write people as black or white. Really, no one in this world is completely evil or completely good.

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Exactly. This is an issue I keep returning to in my work. It seems to be something people accept in fiction but have trouble applying to real life.

C.J. Rockwell said:

Maybe the problem is that I'm too afraid of being a downer right at the start, it's hard to show their foibles.

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Having foibles doesn't have to be a "downer." Look at the people that you are closest to in real life -- do their flaws stop you from loving them? Flaws can be frustrating, but they can also be endearing. I'd certainly rather hang out with someone who has flaws than someone pretending they are perfect.

I have just joined this forum. The threads ask such interesting questions which I have never considered before! Like this one. In one of my tales, the protagonist is a puppy with a black inkblot over one eye. Now, I find it hard to reconcile what the author said about them having to be bad or unlikeable. They can be infinitely loveable and filled with cheeky mischief and you will still have an exciting story. That is a really naive, shallow example perhaps, but I'm going with it anyway, on the basis I haven't had time to think about it. The wonderful thing about writing is you can employ any device you want to make the story work. Flaws in humans (and animals) is a given, since reality tells us none of us are perfect. How you write about those flaws - the degrees to which you lean, is entirely up to you.

Good luck!