I need some British help!

Christine N. · Apr 1, 2005

I need to pick the brain of someone from the UK (or anybody who knows the answer to this question)

My MC is a 14 year old girl who gets transplanted from NYC to a little town in England. She goes to private school (but not a boarding school) It's such a small, tiny, insignificant part of the story, but I want to get it right. In fact, it probably only comes up once in the whole book. I just hate to have details like that and get them wrong. It irks me to read them, I don't want to write them.

If she's 14, what "grade" do you call that in a UK school? I can't seem to find any information on it on the web. I'm not sure if they have K-12 and call it that, or is it called something else. She would be in 9th grade here in the US.

Thanks!

maestrowork · Apr 1, 2005

Well... I was not from the UK but I went through UK educational system... we have A level and O level... in Hong Kong we don't have grades... but we have like Form 1 through 5, then 6 and 7 are pre-college.

If she's 14, she's probably in Form 2 or 3.

Trapped in amber · Apr 1, 2005

The year I began Senior school, they switched from calling it the 1st year to calling it the 7th year, 2nd year became year 8 and so on. What I don't know is how widespread this change was, or whether it applied to private schools (which in the U.K. are often called, confusingly enough, public schools). So she's either in the 3rd year or year 9. Sorry I can't be clearer.

Edit: from a quick google search it does look as though the change to the year 7, year 8 e.t.c. was widespread, if not nation wide. Still don't know about the private schools. If you go to www.google.co.uk you get the option to limit searches to within the U.K., which might help with your research.

pdr · Apr 1, 2005

UK Private schools

Let's hope lots of people answer for you. I'll ask some of my UK writer pals to drop in. Trapped in Amber is correct it's all changed from Forms!

A private girls' school is a public girls' school. If it's a day school then it's probably a Direct Grant school called Name of Town or local famous person Girls' High School or it's called name of town or local famous person Girls' College!

However my public girls' school, like many in the UK, which took children into prep school aged four and taught us right through to University age had a system of classes that went like this: Kindegarten, Lower Transition, Upper Transition, School Remove, Form One, Form Two, Form Three (aged 10 - 11) Four Lower, Four Middle, Four Upper, (aged 13-14) Five Lower, Five Upper, Six Lower, Six Upper (17-18 years). Some schools reverse the number and call the form Lower Fourth, Lower Fifth etc!!!! That system still exists in my school and in most traditional public schools of long standing.

TashaGoddard · Apr 1, 2005

At 14 she'd probably in Year 9 or 10 in a state school (depends on when her birthday is during the academic year). However, as pdr says, private (actually usually called public, just to be unbelievably confusing!) schools still use forms. My husband taught at a public school during his teacher training and they called the years from 11 - 18 first form, second form, third form, fourth form, fifth form, lower sixth and upper sixth. At 14 years, she'd probably be in the third or fourth form (again depends on her birthday).

Christine N. · Apr 2, 2005

Thanks!

Thank you

Very informative. So at 14, if she goes to a "public secondary school" (do they have co-ed schools, I think I read that they do) she would be in Fourth Upper, or third year, depending on the school.

I actually had written she was a third year, instead of a Freshman, which is what she would be in a US school. But I was basing that purely on Harry Potter and using age 11 as the starting point. I just want to make sure I get it correct. I think I like Fourth Upper - sounds cool.
It is a day school, but I didn't name it. But I might, now that I have an idea of how they are named. My MC lives in the big manor house outside the village. Perhaps the school will be named for him? Hmmm...

Richard · Apr 2, 2005

Sounds cool perhaps, but pretty unusual. Nobody that I know of would ever talk about a 'Fourth Upper' or know what was meant by it - that distinction usually only happens for the Lower and Upper Sixth (which are either continued in the same school, or at special Sixth Form Colleges).

Secondary schools are more likely to be split into three rough groups - Junior/Lower, Senior/Upper and Sixth Form - and then individually into 'sets' for key subjects like maths and modern language (at mine, this ran Alpha for the top class, then Beta, Gamma and Delta, but it was a pretty old fashioned place)

Instead of 'coed', which is a very American term, you want to call them 'mixed'. If your kid's in the third year of secondary school, I believe he'll be about 14.

My MC lives in the big manor house outside the village. Perhaps the school will be named for him? Hmmm...

Most English schools tend to be named after the town they're in (XYZ City School, XYZ Grammar etc) or an iconic figure like a saint, rather than local families. If there's local power at work, you're more likely to find it working as a governor than a direct source of funding.

I'd also point out that basing your research on Harry Potter would be like me writing a tense modern American drama using nothing but old Humphrey Bogart movies. It's a highly stylised version of the public school system ;-)

Christine N. · Apr 2, 2005

Yep, she's 14.

LOL about the HP. That's why I asked the question. I stuck in "third year" to hold the place until I got the correct verbage. Thanks about the name. I'll either think of something or leave it unnamed.

So what do I call it? Third year, Junior, or Fourth form? I don't want to confuse poor readers too badly. I think third year is something they'll be familiar with, since my main readership is in the US. If they've read HP, at least it will sound familiar.

I need a final answer here, if there is one. Or at least a very informed opinon

Richard · Apr 2, 2005

Form and Year are interchangable, but I'd go with Year.

Christine N. · Apr 2, 2005

Thanks!

pdr · Apr 2, 2005

schools

If I'm correct Christine you want your girl to attend a private (that is public) school? Then these schools do indeed have systems like Lower Fourth or Four Lower for naming their years. Some have even more unusual naming systems but for clarity perhaps you'd better stick to year and call her a third year.

What's her social life like? If she mixes with the local kids who have a state education she'd be careful to sound like them and say year three. If she's class conscious then she won't mix with the local kids and will happily talk about the Lower Fourth.

Your girls' public school would be named after the town, or a local benefactor who financially supported the school in its early days. Blankchester Girls' High School or Dame Splendid's College for Girls are the usual types of name for a good academic girls' public day school.

maestrowork · Apr 3, 2005

Yeah, I'll agree that you should use year instead of form. "Year" is more "universally understood" than "form." At 14, she should be in Year 3 or third year.

Christine N. · Apr 3, 2005

Thanks guys! Most of the story takes place between her house and the place book she gets sucked into. But, before all that stuff happens, she does go to school and picks up some friends. That's why I wanted to know. She thinks about the difference between a US school (where she would be a Freshman) and the new school (so now she's a third year).

It's a mere passing reference, just want to make sure I get it right.

Most of the Public schools wear uniforms, right? Most of the like Catholic school uniforms?

Richard · Apr 3, 2005

Almost all English schools have mandatory uniforms.

The exact design varies quite a bit though - in junior school, generally boys have white shirts and grey trousers, adding elements like a blazer and tie when they move up to secondary school. Girls usually have the same basic ensemble at that point, except with either a knee or floor length skirt (quite often you get the knee-length ones in years 1-5, then a full length one in the sixth forms. Needless to say, those with the short ones typically do their level best to turn them into a belt, while the older girls end up with them dragging half way down the corridor ;-)) The colours usually tend to be fairly subdued - navy blue, dark red and the like, but there are exceptions. Public schools can more or less please themselves when designing the uniform, but they typically go for something austere and important looking - they charge a LOT of money for tuition, and love to provide reasons why ;-)

The best thing to do would be to have a look through some public school websites - almost all of them should contain something on the uniform - and find a balance that suits your environment.

Richard · Apr 3, 2005

And randomly, the blazers inevitably itch like living hell. We always had to wear that crap at my school on the assumption that we'd be getting jobs that required that kind of dress, but I became a journalist, and as such just wander around in jeans and a coloured shirt all day ;-)

Eussie · Apr 3, 2005

I am originally from the UK and thought I might be able to help but I think I would advise either this board: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/ and posing your question (looks like it's an extremely busy board) or researching a 'particular' school and using it for your model school. Like Eton perhaps.

Good Luck
Eussie

Alphabet · Apr 3, 2005

I'm with Eussie, although my idea is slightly different it is in the same camp (I wanted to read the whole thread to be sure if it was already suggested or not).

Why not contact a school directly and ask them. I'm sure it would be the easiest thing for them to reply to you, provide an envelope/postcard and also an email address for that.

I think you ought to choose a school in the area in which your book is set. i.e. the nearest private school to your chosen location. Because it does vary school to school, so I would think you would be most confident if you know that a specific school in that location really does use the phraseology you go for.

three seven · Apr 3, 2005

Richard said:
Nobody that I know of would ever talk about a 'Fourth Upper' or know what was meant by it - that distinction usually only happens for the Lower and Upper Sixth

When I was 14 I was in Upper 4.

three seven · Apr 3, 2005

And don't forget she'd be in a House as well as a form (not a year in a private school.)

Nivvie · Apr 3, 2005

*Starts having flashbacks*

I went to a public girls school in Sussex, and like someone said about daft names, we were called after saints, not our year or form.

However, after they went from saying third year to year nine, they still used number first system.

If you want realistic private school it's about depravation.

I was both a boarder and non-boarder, and it was all about make up and chocolate.
Sweets were completely banned, and so it was the job of the non-boarders with their access to the outside world to bring in contraband.
I once hollowed opened a tissue box on the side, slid out the middle tissues and inserted chocolate, then glued the seal back, leaving the top perforations intact, wrapped it up and gave to to a boarder for her birthday.
Good thing no one in authority thought to check the weight, it was suspiciously heavy.

Nivvie · Apr 3, 2005

Oh, and a note on houses if you don't know what they are. It's a cross form grouping for competitions and sports with linked names. Such as relevant saints, often the patron saints of the countries of the UK, or once at one of my schools, sites of the world that had religious significance, like Walsingham, Fatima and Lourdes.

Nivvie · Apr 3, 2005

Last one I promise.....on uniforms, I had to wear a felt hat in the winter, and a straw one in the summer.....*shudder*

three seven · Apr 3, 2005

Nivvie said:
It's a cross form grouping for competitions and sports

...and tutoring. For example you might have eight or ten houses, with twelve or fifteen people from each year in every house. Those twelve or fifteen people then have a dedicated tutor (read mentor) who'll take responsibility for their educational and disciplinary needs etc.

maestrowork · Apr 3, 2005

three seven said:
And don't forget she'd be in a House as well as a form (not a year in a private school.)

Oh yeah, the House. I was in the White House. (giggle) We had competitions not only for sports, but also academics and arts stuff. At the end of the school year we had an over all champion.

And yes, we wore uniforms -- although many of us managed to bring our own styles to it...

That's why when I read/saw Harry Potter it call came back to me...

Christine N. · Apr 3, 2005

I hadn't actually chosen or named an exact location, but now that I'm hashing it out a bit more, I've decided on County Cambridgeshire. So, anything anyone can tell me would be most helpful.

The most I would need is description. I've seen some pictures and all, but if anyone has been there or through there, every bit helps.

Here's another bit, as long as I have your attention. Say I was going from Heathrow to Cambridgeshire, in a car. What might I see out the window? Not specific places, perhaps, but general landscape. I've had some difficulty writing it out. I suppose you leave the city (or go around it) and see suburbs, then it changes to villages and open ground.

All help is appreciated

I need some British help!

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