question on heroines in fantasy novels

Poison Study and the ensuing trilogy by Maria V. Snyder. I haven't read past the first book, but I like the heroine so far... she doesn't strike me as a Mary Sue yet, though it looks as though that might change. Still, the first book was good. Simple, direct, intriguing, with an interesting twist and a romance that was (for me) unexpected.

Livak in Juliet McKenna's Tales of Einarinn series starting with Thief's Gamble - though she isn't the central character in all of the books

The vast majority of Urban Fantasy features strong female leads. See the other thread for details on that.

What sort of fantasy are you writing?

"Urban Shaman" (and sequels--publisher: Luna) by C. E. Murphy (Urban Fantasy)

"The Skewed Throne" (and sequels--publisher: DAW) by Joshua Palmatier (Fantasy)

Both recent publications, so it reflects the present market instead of the older or more classic books/serious I can think of.

We've had at least one thread in here on this, a few months ago. Lemme see if I can hunt it down

ETA: Here we go! Role of women. Not quite the same thing but it ended up with a lot of suggestions for strong female characters in fantasy.

But I feel like there was another thread on it too, and I'm failing to find it. Ohwell

Mela said:

Hi - I've read through the stickies and don't think this has been covered.
How can I compile a list of fantasy books that feature strong female characters - ones who have had to overcome odds, etc., to get to where they want to go.

My theory is there will always be a market for this sort of book, which I was thinking of pointing out in my pitch (but I have no proof, you see). The problem: while I've always liked writing fantasy, I haven't really read it in some years - I left the genre for a long time (life, full time job obligations, etc.) and I need to catch up.

If anyone can help, I'd be appreciative.

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Hi Mela,

I too fled the fantasy shelves for around ten years (in part it was too many dragons on too many covers - but let's not start that discussion again), and have only returned of late - delighted to see that some pretty decent material has accumulated.

I think that there are a lot of titles with sympathetic female main characters these days; many with enduring or resilient female MCs; quite a few with agile or clever female MCs but still very few with what I would call a strong female MC - where strength means leadership qualities. If that's what you're thinking of writing then I'd really like to encourage you in it!

For some decades now I've been hunting for a female bildungsroman that provides a good example of leadership development for women. Something akin to, say, Forester's Hornblower stories: in which naivete gradually gives way to depth of character, determination and resolution; in which we see the leadership lessons unfolding and can chart their impact.

I'm still looking.

The first candidate I ever found that was close was Le Guin's character of Odo - a female anarchist/philosopher referenced in The Dispossessed, and whom we see toward the end of her life in Le Guin's Nebula-winning short The Day Before the Revolution. Odo is my favourite fantasy model of strong female leadership: there's wisdom, determination, courage, empathy, grit and a beautiful feminine strength. She's a leader; not simply a transplanted mother figure, and she's neither drudge nor princess -- but alas, we never learn how she acquires this character.

Recently, Jennifer Fallon created Marla for her Hythrun chronicles. Poor little Princess turned brood-mare, career widow and spider in the web, for me she has vague resonances with the character of Olivia from Graves' I Claudius: strong, ruthless but much more the power behind the throne than the power on it. Although she has a place of power, it's off-centre to the action. There's also a massive and quite disappointing jump from Poor Little Princess to Spider in the Web, and rather than being experiential her whole transformation is ascribed to the wise wispers of a twisted little dwarf anyway... So it's received secret lore. We don't discover much about what she learns or how.

Casting back a bit further, we have Morgaine from CJ Cherryh's cycle of the same name. Her name draws perhaps from that of Morgan Le Fay, but she's a Tortured Loner with only her Faithful Companion for company - cast from the same sort of mold as Moorcock's Elric -- almost a feminised version of him really. She shapes worlds (or unshapes them), but by their very nature, loners don't make good leaders.

While we're on Morgaine, I should mention Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon - the Arthurian cycle written from the perspective of female characters. It features Morgan Le Fay, rendered in the name Morgaine -- another Poor Little Princess but this time turned priestess. Again, more a manipulator than a leader in her own right.

There are plenty, plenty, plenty of Poor Little Princesses in fantasy. Plenty of feisty Plucky Adventuresses. A couple of viragoesque Conans with breasts. No end of drudges, manipulators and Women Who've Seen too much. A couple of Eternal Virgins. Plenty of Wise Crones who got that way just by surviving rather than doing much. A few Holy Harlots (I should mention Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel's Dart as a recent and interesting example of this). A slew of Enduring Matrons, a couple of Bossy Pragmatic Mothers...

But where O where is the woman who leads with her head and her heart in equal strength? Whose sexual/procreative identity is adequately separated from her social identity as leader so that one does not subsume the other? Who gains following and support because of who she is, how she acts, what she knows and not simply by manipulating the real power figures? Such women exist in real life, so why not in literature?

It bothers me, because I believe that if we don't have a credible female Leadership Transformation myth in fantasy then it's probably because we don't have one in society. And if we don't have one in our culture then I think that women in leadership roles are going to struggle (as indeed they often do) with who they are, how they balance leadership against their femininity, and how they get further.

So if you plan to write one of these Mela, you have my very best wishes. Please tell your publisher that Ruv would read it. Twice.

(And your publisher will doubtless say: "Ruv who?")

Meanwhile, I'm still hoping that some day Le Guin will turn her pen to Odo: The Early Years.

Ruv Draba said:

I too fled the fantasy shelves for around ten years (in part it was too many dragons on too many covers - but let's not start that discussion again), and have only returned of late - delighted to see that some pretty decent material has accumulated.

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Your so mean. Why dont you like Dragons?????
lolol

But where O where is the woman who leads with her head and her heart in equal strength? Whose sexual/procreative identity is adequately separated from her social identity as leader so that one does not subsume the other?

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In YA?
Tamora Pierce, Diana Wynne Jones, Sherwood Smith, Ellen Kushner, Sharon Shinn...

There's also the female characters in the Windling/Datlow edited Mythic Fiction series for older young adults. (The Green Man, The Faery Reel, The Coyote Road; The Beastly Bride, forthcoming)

I've had an insomniac night so my memory's shot; I know I'm missing some obvious ones. But those came to mind straight away.

Who gains following and support because of who she is, how she acts, what she knows and not simply by manipulating the real power figures? Such women exist in real life, so why not in literature?

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Actually I think some of the answers to this lie in our cultural narratives about those powerful women. Sure, these women exist. But they're not really accepted. They're bucking a trend, and they often face severe misogyny and comments that focus on their gender and their gender roles.

Clinton's an extremely good topical example of this. Whatever you think of her politics, the way in which she's been smeared, repeatedly, is rather chilling. People comment on... what. Her lipstick. Whether she's showing her age. Whether she was in the white house while being cheated on (thank you CNN.) Whether she's shrill. Whether she cries. What her daughter is doing in her campaign, and whether that makes her an unnatural parent. Who wears the trousers in that family (is she an unnatural wife too? Or if she's not, are we just re-electing the Man?) If she acts according to feminine gender stereotypes then Ick she's a Woman; if she doesn't then Ick, she's an Unnatural Woman.

This is not the narrative of a culture that's fully moved beyond a woman's role being in the home.

Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness Quartet has an excellent female lead, IMO. She never did quite what was expected of her and was a very dynamic character. Not the shallow woman at all.

sanctuary6284 said:

Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness Quartet has an excellent female lead, IMO. She never did quite what was expected of her and was a very dynamic character. Not the shallow woman at all.

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Though I'd say Kel is more a leader than Alanna ever is. The interesting thing about Pierce's different series in that universe, to me, is that they're all strong heroines and they're all significantly different.

So she's not just providing A Good Role Model, she's showing how multiple different good role models... well, okay, not sure Aly's a good role model, but bear with me... might grow up and get that way.

Shweta said:

In YA?
Tamora Pierce, Diana Wynne Jones, Sherwood Smith, Ellen Kushner, Sharon Shinn...

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I know Ellen Kushner, but haven't read much YA fantasy beyond that of Garth Nix, whom I've known for a couple of decades.

In many ways, YA is exactly where I think the strong female leadership stories should be. I'm reminded of Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle in Time - which I thought had a very strong female lead in the character of Meg Murray as Older Sister. Single-minded, smart, geeky but enormously loyal to her sibs. She was geek before geek was chic.

Again though, it's the transformation from Responsible Older Sister to Headwoman that's the problem, and away from Drudge or Entitled Princess.

I've had an insomniac night so my memory's shot; I know I'm missing some obvious ones. But those came to mind straight away.

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Writers don't have "Insomniac Nights" Shweta! They have "Creative Opportunities".

Actually I think some of the answers to this lie in our cultural narratives about those powerful women. Sure, these women exist. But they're not really accepted.

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Leaders who aren't accepted can't lead. So I believe that they're accepted - just not understood.

Male leaders aren't understood either really, but we're not conscious of that because our myths are so strong and effective. All myths are lies, but the good myths are at least useful lies because they give us a sensibly simplified sense of the complex. That's why we use them. I think we're in agreement that the current myths about female leadership are entirely inadequate. They do indeed date from times of women as coveted property, revered incubators and cherished domestics.

All the Red Sonjas and Buffys - the Virgin Viragos that are so popular to churn out these days - aren't really helping us form a myth about the wise female, middle-aged leader -- which is where I believe that socially real leadership takes hold. It's like there's this jump in our myths from 20something virago to 40something matron and nobody knows what to put in between.

But of course such myths must have existed in other cultures (and perhaps our own cultures historically). Perhaps it's a matter of rediscovery rather than invention.

Or perhaps invention really is required. Maybe leadership in modern society has changed enormously from clan and village leadership. Maybe new metaphors are needed.

They're bucking a trend, and they often face severe misogyny and comments that focus on their gender and their gender roles.

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While that's true, what many aspiring female leaders don't realise is that men have always faced enormous personal costs from their own leadership too. No matter how leadership is glorified, it ain't roses. It's immensely painful. What's different perhaps is that men are trained from an early age to expect and deal with those costs. More on that in another thread some time perhaps.

Clinton's an extremely good topical example of this. Whatever you think of her politics, the way in which she's been smeared, repeatedly, is rather chilling.

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I think that whatever commentary she's facing now is far less than what she could expect as President. Fortunately she seems pig-headed enough to cope -- a prime leadership quality in men or women! Consider the Margaret Thatcher for instance.

People comment on... what. Her lipstick. Whether she's showing her age.

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Sure, but this just betrays the media not knowing how to handle her change in role. News media express themselves in (and sometimes even reason in) myths. They don't have the myths, so they're working with what they've got. If they had better I think they'd use it. Which is exactly my point. I'm not persuaded that these superficialities will have a long term effect on her campaigning, but I am keenly conscious that they're probably scaring off thousands of young women who wouldn't mind being in her place right now. After all, who in their right mind wants that level of physical scrutiny?

Well, I think you're agreeing with me, just with different words. I say narrative, you say myth. We don't have a good one

And actually, I don't remember it well enough to think about how appropriate it is, but Jeffrey Archer wrote a book featuring the (fictional) first female president of the US. I think it was called The Prodigal Daughter, but I may be wrong; it was in a series and I read it when I was like 12.

Juno Books (a small fantasy press) publishes primarily books with strong female leads. I don't have their website handy, but Google will probably bring it up.

Shweta said:

Though I'd say Kel is more a leader than Alanna ever is.

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Is Kel the main character in the Protector of the Small quartet?

sanctuary6284 said:

Is Kel the main character in the Protector of the Small quartet?

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Yes

As far as "pitching"...

I suspect that if you don't know, don't sweat trying to find out. Just put the best pitch together that you can based on what you *do* know.

If you weren't writing this book for a specific market right now, don't approach your pitching process that way.

Shweta said:

Well, I think you're agreeing with me, just with different words. I say narrative, you say myth. We don't have a good one

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Agreed, but I think we do have good narrative - it's just not boiled down yet to be digestible to the hoi polloi.

In my day job I work a lot with senior executives; no few of them are women and many are very impressive. They haven't coasted to success through sexuality. They haven't necessarily sacrificed motherhood and a stable relationship. They're not necessarily harridans or Iron Ladies (though I haven't met one who isn't steely). They're not necessarily shrill or strident. They're just people. But they have particular qualities that together, differentiate them from other people. Among those I most notice I include:

• A strong sense of duty or purpose
• High levels of self-reliance
• Practicality
• A good BS meter
• A willingness to use conflict and disagreement, rather than always avoiding or diffusing it
• A good mixture of people and objective skills
• Stubbornness
• High and resilient self-esteem
• Frankness
• Courage of their convictions
• Agility
• Conscious control of their sexuality (i.e, it's not on when they don't want it on. They don't seduce for seduction's sake; many don't seduce at all.)
• Femininity - I can't think of a single one of them that I think of as a man in a dress, and in case you're wondering let me tell you that power in a woman is sexy, just as it is in a man. Okay, a few guys run in terror, but a lot more guys drool - I've seen this and felt it myself.

In other words, they have much the same qualities as strong male leaders, except (arguably) better people skills, more agility and being female. The problem is of course, we don't have cultural icons for this, and we're predisposed to consider many of these qualities to be masculine rather than simply human. So one thing I think we need are some strong female mythical characters who embody these qualities, just so we have convenient labels for them. The last one I can think of in our cultural myths would be Boudica - someone nobody really talks about any more. The rest tend to be tragic figures, or salutary icons of people girls don't want to be.

But the icon is only half the problem. If you ask yourself the question: how does a girl learn these qualities (as opposed to how does a boy), then I think we draw another blank. We know how boys do it: Boys Adventures are full of such tales. But our equivalent tales for girls only cover some of these, and only piecemeal. Not only that, but our female MCs are seldom rewarded as generously for these qualities as our male MCs. Very often, their reward is that someone they love benefits. Too often, we make martyrs of our heroines - or give them just the guy and forget about the cash, the car, the great job and the adulation of the people. Heracles, Odysseus, Hornblower and Bond would never have put up with those working conditions.

But then, maybe the rewards of leadership for women are substantially different than those for men. Maybe they're far closer to the rewards depicted in Sex in the City or Cashmere Mafia than a James Bond romp. I don't know because I haven't dug into it, but I'd welcome opinion on this.

In any case, I think that we know - intellectually - a lot about our strong female leaders. That's what all the biographies are about. But I think it'd be great for someone to distil these into strong leadership-teaching myths. I think our female leaders deserve that honour - they travel a very hard road - and our young women deserve that service.

I hope you read some Tamora Pierce, Ruv. I'd truly love to know how well you think her books work in this regard

Shweta said:

I hope you read some Tamora Pierce, Ruv. I'd truly love to know how well you think her books work in this regard

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I've been quietly compiling a Shweta-recommended reading list from this and other threads, and will likely tap it during my next Book Buying Binge[SUP]TM[/SUP]. If I do and my impressions are at all noteworthy I'll post or PM or something.

I hate to self promote...no. seriously. I mean it...



Oh the heck with it! This is what reviewer Louanne Jacobs said about my novel in her review for Myshelf:

In addition, the author brings to life a fresh young female protagonist who is strong, passionate, and unquestionably believable. Not once does Celina Summers take the easy and predictable path and allow Tamsen to become a stock character. Rather, she continues to develop an exasperating, exciting, and enchanting young woman whom the reader comes to love and champion.

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I can tell you that as a writer, it's far easier for me to write a strong female protagonist. Let's just say that I, too, got sick of male central characters when often, quite by accident, he was surrounded by clever, fascinating women. Thought it might just be high time to change that.

Adding to the recommendations: I find Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion series to be somewhat hard going---maybe it's the lack of Miles---but she writes some good female leaders, IMO.

Terry Pratchett is humorous fantasy, but Granny Weatherwax is a strong female leader. Of course, she's also stubborn, proud, prone to bitterness, impatient, and sometimes just flat-out nasty, but she's supposed to be a terrifying old witch, so I suppose that's natural. And while we're on YA, the Tiffany Aching books also have a strong female protagonist.

People have already mentioned Tamora Pierce, so those are the two that jump into my head at the moment.

Izunya